BWPL V Format Discussion

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goldmason

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BWPL manager signups open in a little over 2 weeks, so we want to get discussion going on changes for this year's edition.

One change the host/mod team is very interested in is an OU Bo3 slot replacing an OU Bo1 slot.

GenPLs are quite popular nowadays, with almost all hitting ~300 signups, so the idea of expansion is definitely worth considering; however, the host and moderation team are hesitant on doing it without a very good reason (and tier(s)) to add, so keep that in mind.

Last year's Format for reference:
BW Ubers
BW OU
BW OU
BW OU
BW UU
BW RU
BW NU
BW PU
BW ZU
BW LC


If there's anything else, feel free to mention it below! We will finalize the format a week before BWPL Manager signups go live.
 
personally would like more OU slots, no one cares about bw lower tiers. Lots of people want a shot in BW OU to prove themselves, but they dont get it bc there is better people to field and these players are left out. while i can't imagine there is anyone looking forward to playing BW NU, they can actually just play some friendlies bc no1 wants to see this
 
just on principle I think having a BO3 slot is a good idea, but it might be a better idea to add a slot for Bo3 rather than take away one of the standard OU slots. idk what you'd do for slot 12(monotype or ZU, like SSPL did?) but having more room for OU means that someone else who might not have gotten a chance before can prove themselves in this format, and I assume that you would want to put the player(s) you're most confident in for the BO3 slot anyway so it's a win-win
 
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Charliezard7 said:
Most of the BW lowers tiers are in a better state competitively speaking than OU.
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Speaking as someone who plays all of OU, UU, RU, and NU on a more regular basis than just about anyone, I just want to note that is blatantly incorrect.

BW OU has its flaws, but it is perceived relatively well by players (see: recent survey) and most issues aren’t dramatic imbalances in competitiveness. That is not to say it is perfect — it isn’t, but it is not worse off than lower tiers.

BW UU has long been my favorite tier ever, but it has a handful of lopsided matchup and cheese shenanigans which the playerbase accounts for at varying levels, leading to a ton of awkward games. You can also argue Pokemon like Togekiss and Victini are hazards to the competitiveness of the metagame while being deeply ingrained within the tier’s identity. I quite like it, but it’s far from being a perfect tier either.

BW RU is quite literally known for being a haxfest. Hustle Durant and inaccurate Moltres are two of the best Pokemon in the tier while the king of BW RU, Druddigon, initiated the first infamous speed creep war in competitive Pokemon history. This isn’t even getting into the uptick in weather and old stall teams that all fish across the spectrum. I enjoy playing this, but it’s pretty clearly the least competitive of the four to me.

BW NU has virtually no hazard removal and this brings a huge degree of volatility to the metagame with emphasis being put on getting hyper-specific sequences right and there being little maneuverability. It’s still a really cool metagame, but it’s not perfect by any stretch and more centralized that OU, which is infamous for that.

I do not care much about the format (besides Monotype, which we pretty clearly do not have space for) and plan to stay out of most discussions as I will be busy through August 10th, but I just wanted to note how this claim was very misleading.
 
Personally I think expansion is the way to go here. Currently all the lower tiers are represented, and with an additional BO3 OU slot it makes room for another OU or Monotype (echoing SSPL-ORASPL which all include Monotype)

As a Monotype and BW player, I think BW Monotype is a great tier that has seen a good deal of innovation in the past few monotype tours. Considering the other gen PLs that have Monotype have added it, I think it would be a popular and good addition that gives more OU slots to those trying to break in by keeping it three with an additional BO3 OU, and all lower tiers, as such I propose:

BW Ubers
BW OU (BO3)
BW OU
BW OU
BW OU
BW UU
BW RU
BW NU
BW PU
BW ZU
BW LC
BW Monotype

I think removing any lower tier from a PL is stupid, but I would hope this keeps anyone happy, also Monotype draws more than RU-NU as well I would bet. This is a very good reason to expand as Monotype has a large community and will draw interest and traction to BWPL as a whole, while allowing for a BO3 slot.

Finchinator said:
I do not care much about the format (besides Monotype, which we pretty clearly do not have space for) and plan to stay out of most discussions as I will be busy through August 10th, but I just wanted to note how this claim was very misleading.
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There’s very clearly room for Monotype with BWs recent popularity surge (as far as I can tell) and all other gen PLs managing to do it, as well as goldmason mentioning literally expansion room is open.
 
Unrelated to above: a format with all OU or cutting any of Ubers/UU/RU/NU should be a non-starter.

This is BWPL, not BWOUPL. We have a myriad of other OU tournaments. I am fine with another slot of OU, but suggestions like above are OD.

Ubers, UU, RU, and NU have been along for the ride in an official and popular capacity since the dawn of the generation. BW was even the generation that triggered the invention of RU due to the expansion of the pool of Pokemon.

Unless we want to expand to 12 slots, then I do not see how we fit all of the needs expressed above. If we do, then I would be ok with another OU or Monotype of course as there are clear playerbases for both.

Edit: I forgot LC, but group that with above. I apologize.
 
I don't think expanding this tournament to 12 slots is the way to go personally.

Last year the decision was made to increase the number of teams from 6 to 8, which in my opinion was the correct decision.

Some people claim that there are "better people to field" and that increasing the number of OU slots would solve this issue. This is not a sentiment I agree with. The 2 team expansion already allowed those who go under the radar the chance to get on a team. Looking at who went undrafted last year, I see no glaring omissions. I see a few players I believe were more deserving than some who were drafted, but that is a separate issue. Increasing the number of slots will simply worsen the quality of the tour which is a trade-off not worth considering.

I also don't agree with dropping any lower tiers from this tournament's format. OU has plenty of representation in BW throughout the year and the creation of BW WCOP is just another reason as to why we don't need more OU slots in this tournament. BW does not have an "Underground" tournament like ORAS does to give lower tiers a spotlight, and dropping them from a tournament that many lower tier players look forward to playing would be a mistake.

The only change I would consider making to the format at this time would be the addition of a BW OU Bo3 slot, replacing one of the 3 OU slots.

This change would be consistent with the other old gen premier leagues on this website, such as DPPPL and ADVPL both having OU Bo3 slots of their own. ROAPL's BW OU Bo3 slot was greatly appreciated by the player base, while the Bo3 slots in the previously mentioned old gen pls resulted in great, entertaining matchups.

This is the format I would recommend going with for this edition.

BW Ubers:
BW OU Bo3:
BW OU:
BW OU:
BW UU:
BW RU:
BW NU:
BW PU:
BW ZU:
BW LC:

I would also like to see the budget increased from 120k to 140k to remain consistent with the other 10 slot old gen premier leagues such as DPPPL and ADVPL.
 
Dababy2 said:
I would also like to see the budget increased from 120k to 140k to remain consistent with the other 10 slot old gen premier leagues such as DPPPL and ADVPL.
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Fwiw I think DPPPL and ADVPL's budget was a bit too loose. I think 130k for 13 (10+3) would be fine but 140 10+4 is too much. If expanded to 12 slots, 140 12+2 seems fine, though other tours have done 150 12+3 and it hasn't been that bad. In general I think 4 subs is too much.

EDIT: Also, speaking purely personally, I have enjoyed watching BW DOU as the host for DPL. Would support adding it if expanding to 12, but I also do not mind the 10 slot format and would be fine leaving it at the same 10 slots from last year, with a BW OU Bo3 slot.
 
I heavily support BW Monotype being added to the format, like jack said Monotype is in SSPL, SMPL, & ORASPL so it would make sense to add it here too if it gets support, which it does, and the tier is a pretty popular old gen, being played for years in MPL with a competitive pool of players.

I don't really care about the 2nd format, could be DOU if it gets support, could be another OU if people want more OU, but adding 2 OUs is omega silly when it's by far the most represented tier of the whole generation with countless tournaments, while some low tiers BW are only represented in their respective PL and their cup for Classic, which is not a lot.

I know some people don't like Monotype and see it as an uncompetitive tier or whatever, i thought that too before playing it to be honest, but once you understand how this works the tier is so much fun and actually very competitive and unique.
 
Echoing the views of the many Monotype enthusiasts in the thread so far, and further emphasizing on Finchinator's point regarding this tour *not* being BWOUPL, I too believe BW monotype deserves a spot in this tournament, mostly because it is an active metagame with a dedicated playerbase who can attest to its viability. Furthermore, this will help provide an opportunity for BW players to branch out more and explore BW Monotype as a "new" format, allowing them to be invested in Monotype tournaments that are just as rewarding as Low Tier Tournaments that take place all-year round. This will also help BW Monotype to improve its metagame and foster stronger relations between different sub-communities within the forum, I strongly believe BW Monotype is a strong fit here with solid precedent in PLs of other gens (ORAS, SM, etc.).

12 slots is probably the best and the only way to effectively incorporate this, I believe it will help newer players to engage with BW more and will provide us with a fantastic new trend involving "new" tiers. Saw some support for DOU involvement and I don't suppose anyone would be opposed to BW following a similar format to ORASPL:

BW Ubers:
BW OU Bo3:
BW OU:
BW OU:
BW DOU:
BW UU:
BW RU:
BW NU:
BW PU:
BW ZU:
BW LC:
BW Monotype:

This looks promising to me and can set the trend for future iterations of this tournament, allowing players to pursue the more "niche" formats outside of this tournament and progressing their development all the same. Two additional slots means more players get to play as well, which to me is a welcoming incentive to include Monotype in BWPL.
 
Dababy2 made a great post and anyone who reads this should read his because I agree with the majority of it.

Replacing an OU slot with an OU Bo3 slot is a no brainer and I'm actually surprised previous instalments didn't do it (unless they did and it reverted back to bo1, then why lol?)

Having most of the historic BW lower tiers which were played during CG is really nice, would really oppose these being touched.

WRT Doubles:

First and foremost, I see this as a BW Singles Tournament, there is no overlap with doubles. It is completely alien to the other tiers we have in BWPL. At least if my ZU guy pings me and says he needs a test it's 6v6 and I have the fundamentals, I can give him a worthwhile test, majority of people DOU players are going to team with have never touched their tier. From speaking to others in different tierpl's the DOU slot seems to be quite a lonely place and it kinda feels like they're doing their own thing.

As someone who is planning to manage, the second issue is that I could not name a BW DOU player if you put a gun to my head. I have never seen these people engage w the BW Community, I have never spoken to someone who plays it, and how would I have a reasonable idea of who to buy if everyone is a stranger to me? The common counter argument to the previous point from what I've seen is "add a 3rd manager who knows doubles." Ok so now instead of finding a competent DOU player, I need to manage a 9 week Tournament with a complete stranger, and I have no mutual friends so I can't even verify if they are knowledgable or just a talker.

You might say oh you main OU, wouldn't you have the same problems finding people to play Ubers, UU, RU, etc. The simple answer is no, I have met plenty of great and knowledgeable players within these tiers because they engage w the BW community, I could get recommendations from these guys of good players in their respective tiers, or I could even buy them.

WRT Monotype:

It also seems alien, having a format not decided by usage where every other slot has it seems very weird, and almost forced. I haven't seen many of the Monotype guys engage w BW Community either. I would like to play the tier myself one day so I could actually formulate a fair opinion, but I do feel it's quite gimmicky and doesn't really have the same historical identity with BW over the years as the rest.

I understand the newer Lower Tiers might fall under some of the above comments, but I don't really care for those tiers either, although they do feel more real and authentic to me than Monotype and definitely DOU though.
 
Just reading through the posts so far, there seems to be a fair amount of people open to the idea of increasing the slots to 12. A few suggested a OU Bo3 slot, but I think keeping all the slots Bo1 would be most preferable. I think the format jackuzzler suggested would be the best of both worlds for those that would like an extra OU slot for more players to have an opportunity and for those advocating for BW Monotype.

Format as follows:
BW Ubers
BW OU
BW OU
BW OU
BW OU
BW UU
BW RU
BW NU
BW PU
BW ZU
BW LC
BW Monotype
 
hi if ur gonna do 12 slots dou should have been part of last iteration, playerbase is strong and the tier's actually good, 12 slots 8 teams or 10 slots 8 teams are fine, big fan of adding ou bo3 as a slot, also can we set this tour to start like a month earlier next season it always coincides with my most busy time of the year irl

If you decide to go 12 slots and make one of the new ones an ou, doubles over mono, adding both is kosher but adding mono+ou is an out of season april fools joke and should be a nonstarter
 
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Gypsy said:
It also seems alien, having a format not decided by usage where every other slot has it seems very weird, and almost forced.
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LC doesn't either (or at least parallel to the rest of the formats that are in) so the point is relatively moot; the format should be evaluated on its merits and the depth of its playerbase, not some self-imposed restrictions. If people have valid objections against expansion as whole (regardless of which format is added) they're fair and that should be the core of the debate. Now if a majority of people think expansion is warranted, then Monotype shouldn't be excluded from the discussion, nor should any other format that can reasonably make a good case for itself.
 
Vertigo said:
LC doesn't either (or at least parallel to the rest of the formats that are in) so the point is relatively moot; the format should be evaluated on its merits and the depth of its playerbase, not some self-imposed restrictions. If people have valid objections against expansion as whole (regardless of which format is added) they're fair and that should be the core of the debate. Now if a majority of people think expansion is warranted, then Monotype shouldn't be excluded from the discussion, nor should any other format that can reasonably make a good case for itself.
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In my original draft I was going to pre-emptively mention about how LC could fall under this, but I decided nobody would zero in on this tiny detail given the size of the post, but LC has been a part of BW since the very beginning and it would be completely unreasonable to touch.
 
idc if monotype is added or not, but do not make a premier league that's supposed to showcase an entire generation only ou. not sure why this thread is the most tier elitist out of all the old gen pls i've seen/managed in (as an outsider, it seems like the bw community is just 1 big jerk lol) but a lot of the posts speaking in such wrong absolutes are absurd. "no one cares about low tiers" (??)
 
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