NP - Devil's Haircut: SV ND DOU Suspect Process 7: Flutter Mane

[big pichu]

Suspect Reasoning - written by eragon

Following the release of the latest tiering survey, the council has decided to suspect test Flutter Mane in SV National Dex Doubles. Flutter Mane has had a long and controversial history in SV Doubles formats, being suspected three times in SV DOU over the course of the generation and regularly being a topic of contention in this tier as well. While Flutter Mane has long been one of, if not the, strongest Pokemon in the format for years at this point, it has often been overshadowed by slightly less popular, but more overtly broken and uncompetitive Pokemon, such as the recent bans of Stakataka and Shadow Tag (primarily used by Gothitelle). However, the tier has been given plenty of time to settle down following the Shadow Tag ban and much of the playerbase clearly feels that Flutter Mane is suspect-worthy (a feeling shared by the council), with it scoring a 3.06 out of 5 on the latest tiering survey– notably higher than Stakataka and Shadow Tag prior to being banned.
Flutter Mane is one of most ubiquitous and strongest offensive options in National Dex Doubles while also having a fair amount of set versatility. It’s excellent offensive typing of Ghost and Fairy allows it to threaten large amounts of neutral damage on much of metagame while possessing one of the highest speed stats in the tier at 135, outpacing almost every other fast offensive option like Marshadow, Mega Salamence, and even (the more supportive) Tapu Koko. Flutter Mane uses its Fairy STAB to deal huge damage with single target Moonblast and output decently strong spread damage with Dazzling Gleam, a generally weak attack that can become capable of dishing out impressive damage when paired with any attack boost. Choice Specs with Tera Fairy is probably Flutter Mane’s most common and arguably broken set, with unparalleled speed and unboosted offensive damage output, picking up OHKO’s on Pokemon that are weak to Fairy like the aforementioned Mega Salamence, or even frailer neutral targets like Landorus or Tapu Koko, and at the very least 2HKO’ing everything that doesn’t resist it. Flutter Mane can also opt to run the Booster Energy item to unlock a Protosynthesis speed boost, freeing up more EVs for bulk and becoming the fastest Pokemon in the tier while being able to more easily click supporting moves like Icy Wind. Focus Sash sets have also seen some success in the past as well, allowing Flutter Mane to compensate for its weak physical bulk.
Flutter Mane is not without some clearly defined weaknesses. First, Flutter Mane’s physical bulk is generally quite frail, allowing for most strong physical attackers to easily remove it if they can attack first or take a hit from Flutter Mane. Secondly, Flutter Mane’s general preference for using its slightly stronger Fairy STAB makes Pokemon like Heatran or Amoonguss generally fairly good at handling its damage output, although both can sometimes struggle to deal damage to Flutter Mane, due to its high special bulk. Furthermore, many of the common resists to Moonblast still take high damage from Specs Shadow Ball, with even Pokemon with high Special Bulk like Heatran needing high investment to prevent it from being a two hit KO. As such, it can be difficult to find Pokemon that can both comfortably take hits from Flutter while still being capable of removing it for teammates.
Flutter Mane has also greatly appreciated some of the recent meta changes, such as the banning of Stakataka, which took away both one of the best physical Steel types in the format and one of the best Trick Room setters, an archetype that more offensive Flutter Mane teams could often struggle to handle. With the metagame having been given a fair amount of time to settle following the last few bans and NDPL approaching soon, the council feels that the time is right to finally suspect test Flutter Mane in National Dex Doubles.

As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to ban Flutter Mane.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Natdex DOU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played DOU before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, sealoo, or bumboclaat, or a member of staff.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Smudge , big pichu, or eragon - or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900 (and a B value of 5 - you do not need to worry about this it is just for the formula).
The suspect laddering period is now underway and the deadline for getting requirements is Sunday, August 10th, 6:00 PM Pacific Time (GMT-7).

Flutter Mane will be legal during this suspect.

Suspect Test Ladder Rules:

• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular National Dex Doubles ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The element being tested, Flutter Mane, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.

Discussion Thread Rules:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Flutter Mane is banworthy or not - not other elements of the metagame;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Flutter Mane vs other potential suspects;
• Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
• You are required to make respectful posts; Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

Sample Teams

 

[the great mega]

flutter is one of those mons that should be banned imo but I'ma be happy either way flutter go crazy

 

[sheepie]

That was a fucking nightmare of (my worst ever no joke) rng, ladder being cancer, and most of all an immense skill issue, but finally got to the end.

Flutter mane isn't the most powerful, fast, or annoying mon in the tier, but it is all three to a very high extent at once. It can have absurd poewr with specs, tera, zmoves, and the prevelance of sun/booster energy, it is insanely offensively oppressive and invalidates many special attackers in the builder. Next it is fast af, it speed creeps so much naturally not even taking into account booster speed, where it can creep flipping 90 speed mons WITH TW, and use icy wind, or more evilly thunder wave (more on this later) to ruin many mons days. It single handedly runs speed control outside of torn in the tier, forcing you to either go faster (or more commonly tied with ur own flutter), super bulky, or tr, and can also easily revenge KO so many offensive threats. Next, this mon is insanely annoying, my least favourite set is 100% twave, because the move itself on something so fast and powerful is immensely unhealthy, and can easily ruin or cripple threats, whilst slotting easily onto many different builds (if it stays i do think twave should see a surge in usage its genuinely so powerful), furthermore its set variety is absolutely insane. Fast booster, spatk booster, cm, specs, sash all stabs, sash icy wind, every one very strong in their own right, and each one having completely different roles, and you can't tell whats coming from preview, making it a nightmarish guessing game about whether you will autolose or not, if they play the flutter correctly. Now this is overstating how powerful each set/the variety, but its not far from the truth. This set variety solves another, arguably more annoyoing, point, it means flutter outclasses/makes worthless so many other mons that could be legit in another meta. This is why I can see no reason this should stay in the tier. I will be voting ban (if I remember :skull:)

 

[gephicka]

ftr i have PigWarrior19 's consent for this alt

speedran reqs using this team that i was passed by my fellow reqs speedruner (and 2 out of my 4 losses) eragon, i'll keep my thoughts short for the moment and make a bigger post later.

long story short, flutter mane will always be the most centralizing mon in any non-restricted format that it's in. Its speed tier and damage output are elite and it warps the entire tier around it. i think this guy should not be allowed in any DOU format— even though this format has a lot of tools to deal with it, its presence in the metagame forces so much respect in game & (to a lesser extent) in the builder. so many games come down to weakening the opposing team in order to make way for a flutter mane sweep in back because of how excellent its speed tier is in comparison to the rest of the tier— even moreso when used in conjunction with the excellent charizard-y. removing flutter mane for the tier will, in my opinion, lead to a less centralized and more competitive format overall.

ban flutter mane

 

[LovelyLuna]

Flutter Mane is an excellent wincon, its very fast, its very strong, it has a good spread move, and easily one of the best typings in the game. Flutter Mane has many good partners that further bolster its capabilities. However, I believe the same can be said for many offensive Pokemon. It's not necessarily a bad thing that Flutter Mane is a very good wincon that rewards you for playing well and wittling down its checks. It's hardly an issue in the builder since many splashable Pokemon can take it on fairly well, including Iron Hands, Rillaboom, Heatran, and Ogerpon-Hearthflame.

I think Flutter Mane is fast but not TOO fast, it needs its own speed control to keep up with opposing tailwind, it isn't outspeeding scarfers or deoxys without a protosynthesis boost. Flutter Mane is strong but not TOO strong, many Pokemon can eat a Choice Specs Moonblast and OHKO / 2HKO it in return, Flutter Mane's bulk in particular hurts and makes it hard for me to see her as broken in a doubles context; Dazzling Gleam will always be an 80 BP move that can't 2HKO Iron Hands without Tera Fairy.

I will be voting Do Not Ban

 

[Pengu]

just got reqs (1552 29 W 4 L with 2924 coil) and I gotta say ladder sucks. But that's not why I'm posting

I think flutter is an insane Pokemon to be legal in any normal dou format. But this is nddou. I think this tier has the tools to handle Flutter Mane well enough to contain it and make it feel not as broken as some make it seem. we have jirachi, bulky av mons like rilla and incin, cm fini, seed indeedee, spdef celesteela, etc. I'm not too good at arguing anything lol but I'll be voting do not ban.

Of course, I'll recognize the ban side, which I was part of for a while. Flutter Mane, notably specs sets, are insanely powerful and can beat a lot of the meta. Teams or players that aren't prepared for the threat of Flutter Mane can just lose the endgame. Playing around flutter takes some effort (but not too much, preserve your Pokemon!!!).

 

[cosmicdom96]

This is my first time participating in a suspect test, so not 100% sure if I submit my vote here or elsewhere (help would be much appreciated ) but I got my eligibility last night, so here we go.
I'm sure that I have the same opinion as many others who will post on here as time goes on, but the mon is insane. Super fast, hits hard, fantastic sun abuser, etc., so I'll just keep it simple. I'm gonna vote to ban flutter mane.

 

[gephicka]

This is my first time participating in a suspect test, so not 100% sure if I submit my vote here or elsewhere (help would be much appreciated ) but I got my eligibility last night, so here we go.

you will be pinged after the suspect period is over & voting is open

 

[cosmicdom96]

just got reqs (1552 29 W 4 L) and I gotta say ladder sucks. But that's not why I'm posting

I think flutter is an insane Pokemon to be legal in any normal dou format. But this is nddou. I think this tier has the tools to handle Flutter Mane well enough to contain it and make it feel not as broken as some make it seem. we have jirachi, bulky av mons like rilla and incin, cm fini, seed indeedee, spdef celesteela, etc. I'm not too good at arguing anything lol but I'll be voting do not ban.

Of course, I'll recognize the ban side, which I was part of for a while. Flutter Mane, notably specs sets, are insanely powerful and can beat a lot of the meta. Teams or players that aren't prepared for the threat of Flutter Mane can just lose the endgame. Playing around flutter takes some effort (but not too much, preserve your Pokemon!!!).

you will be pinged after the suspect period is over & voting is open

Amazing! Tysm :D

 

[Edelgard]

just got reqs (1552 29 W 4 L with 2924 coil) and I gotta say ladder sucks. But that's not why I'm posting

I think flutter is an insane Pokemon to be legal in any normal dou format. But this is nddou. I think this tier has the tools to handle Flutter Mane well enough to contain it and make it feel not as broken as some make it seem. we have jirachi, bulky av mons like rilla and incin, cm fini, seed indeedee, spdef celesteela, etc. I'm not too good at arguing anything lol but I'll be voting do not ban.

Of course, I'll recognize the ban side, which I was part of for a while. Flutter Mane, notably specs sets, are insanely powerful and can beat a lot of the meta. Teams or players that aren't prepared for the threat of Flutter Mane can just lose the endgame. Playing around flutter takes some effort (but not too much, preserve your Pokemon!!!).

What about Flutter Mane's teammates?

 

[LovelyLuna]

What about Flutter Mane's teammates?

A teammate like Charizard-Y can handle Jirachi, Rillaboom, Celesteela, a teammate like Raging Bolt can take on Tapu Fini, a Landorus can help cover for Jirachi, Iron Hands, Heatran, etc. None of these are perfect offensive duos though, always missing something. I dont think Flutter Mane + offensive teammate is very different to other offensive cores in the tier, like Marshadow + Rillaboom / Chien-Pao, Mega-Salamence + Landorus / Heatran, Mega Tyranitar + Dracovish / Rillaboom. Flutter Mane is definitely a little more powerful, Choice Specs hits so hard while being so fast, its more borderline than almost every other Pokemon in the tier, but I still don't believe this makes it banworthy. It isn't suffocating in the builder or play, its just really strong and provides good rewards for correct play..

 

[sheepie]

A teammate like Charizard-Y can handle Jirachi, Rillaboom, Celesteela, a teammate like Raging Bolt can take on Tapu Fini, a Landorus can help cover for Jirachi, Iron Hands, Heatran, etc. None of these are perfect offensive duos though, always missing something. I dont think Flutter Mane + offensive teammate is very different to other offensive cores in the tier, like Marshadow + Rillaboom / Chien-Pao, Mega-Salamence + Landorus / Heatran, Mega Tyranitar + Dracovish / Rillaboom. Flutter Mane is definitely a little more powerful, Choice Specs hits so hard while being so fast, its more borderline than almost every other Pokemon in the tier, but I still don't believe this makes it banworthy. It isn't suffocating in the builder or play, its just really strong and provides good rewards for correct play..

I feel Flutter + a pairing imo is much more overbearing then the mentioned other offensive pairs, notably through its ability to support its teammates and very overbearing power and speed, as well as its immense versatility such that the counter for flutter, and for the pairings are very unpredictable, and even if you have the right answer most are relatively easily overpowered by the sheer offence provided. I also find that the flexibility of such cores as flutter zard y / raging bolt allows for many more strong partners then the other cores, which usually need a relatively high level of support to function, flutter whereas can function as the offensive monster and the supportive piece at the same time. I also find it very restrictive on the builder, but that's just personally. I am likely very wrong with my takes lol.

 

[EatFoods]

Hi, since I suck at long posts and am speaking from personal experience/memorable tour games so this might be ass sorry, in advance for the slop posting and cherry picking :fire:

-

I think Flutter Mane is fast but not TOO fast, it needs its own speed control to keep up with opposing tailwind, it isn't outspeeding scarfers or deoxys without a protosynthesis boost

ZardY is by far Flutter's best partner, a very free bring in this tier, and it's able to fix this issue by carrying TW which sun structures already really appreciate allowing it to be the fastest viable mon in the tier. It also carries it's own Icy Wind pretty often for more direct Speed control.

Flutter Mane's bulk in particular hurts and makes it hard for me to see her as broken in a doubles context

There's a lot of utility options on top mons in the tier that kind of make Flutter's bulk a non issue for it (Intim being on pre-Mega Mence and Incin, Fake Out on Incin, Rilla, Hands, and Zera, and Redirection from Pons, Amoong, and Rachi).

jirachi, bulky av mons like rilla and incin, cm fini, seed indeedee, spdef celesteela

Most of these just get worn down by Flutter over the game or struggle into/lose to it's common partners.

It isn't suffocating in the builder or play, its just really strong and provides good rewards for correct play

The issue with Flutter in both builder and play is that you have to use niche options (Steela, AV Zera) to comfortably be able to beat it every game; options like Heatran or Amoonguss are able to switch into Fairy STABs but are punished by SBall and obviously it can come with the downside of you switching your check in and Flutter targets the other slot/switches out to beat that check and come in later.

-

Flutter also has some other issues with being in the tier which I didn't mention above;

It's got a Fake Out immunity pre-Tera which allows it to force progress. Good set variety beyond Specs with primarily Sash sets and to a degree Fairy Z even though I think it's pretty ass. It also has a very wide move pool which is still kind of underexplored with options like Fake Tears, coverage options on Specs such as Mystical Fire and Tera Blast, and CM, realistically this isn't even necessary to look into due to it's almost ridiculous STAB combination. Another thing is how easy it is to slot on near enough any viable team structures.

-

Obviously it's a bit biased for me to just rant about "ban Flutter" without speaking about counter arguments/reasons for it to stay unbanned like;

How counter play exists with some stuff that I mentioned above (Amoong, Steela, AV Zera, etc) which allow you to punish Flutter with your partner and get the kill if you manage to position around it well or slow the game down and stomp it's momentum. There's a lot of counterplay options that are probably niche and usable, and not explored very well yet like Ferrothorn. Although, an issue in my eyes is that a lot of these check is that they passive into 1 or 2 of Flutter's more relevant partners like Jirachi, ZardY, and MMence.

-

My closing thoughts are ban Farter Mane due to it's stupid offensive capabilities which are only boosted by very common partners who are also very viable and easy to slot with it.

Will be reading thread so happy to respond to stuff, so please dont flame me too hard LMAO

BAN FLUTTER 25

 

[LovelyLuna]

ZardY is by far Flutter's best partner, a very free bring in this tier, and it's able to fix this issue by carrying TW which sun structures already really appreciate allowing it to be the fastest viable mon in the tier. It also carries it's own Icy Wind pretty often for more direct Speed control.

This is true, but my point stands. Flutter Mane wants speed control to match opposing speed control, can get a little yucky vs something like Tornadus. Its raw speed isn't as ridiculous imo, and even with Protosynthesis.

There's a lot of utility options on top mons in the tier that kind of make Flutter's bulk a non issue for it (Intim being on pre-Mega Mence and Incin, Fake Out on Incin, Rilla, Hands, and Zera, and Redirection from Pons, Amoong, and Rachi).

Most of these just get worn down by Flutter over the game or struggle into/lose to it's common partners.

I think this is healthy gameplay that comes up with standard offensive Pokemon. Flutter Mane with redirection or fake out is producing massive damage output without dying, same for Eruption Heatran, Charizard-Y, even single target attackers like Raging Bolt and Landorus achieve this. Mega-Salamence and Landorus-T can eat hits from Marshadow and make good progress, but won't be taking repeated hits or handling it when its next to a Chien-Pao. Tapu Fini can take Marshadow on pretty easily, but Rillaboom makes quick work of it. This is just standard offensive synergy between Pokemon, I don't think Flutter Mane is any less unreasonable to play around.

The issue with Flutter in both builder and play is that you have to use niche options (Steela, AV Zera) to comfortably be able to beat it every game; options like Heatran or Amoonguss are able to switch into Fairy STABs but are punished by SBall and obviously it can come with the downside of you switching your check in and Flutter targets the other slot/switches out to beat that check and come in later.

Those niche options are very much optional, you can be using Heatran, Amoonguss, AV Rillaboom, Iron Hands, which are some of the most splashable Pokemon in the metagame. Amoonguss can force plays from Flutter Mane with Spore and Rage Powder and if SpD withstands two Choice Specs Shadow Balls anyway. If you hadyour other slot unprotected or got read with a double switch, is this not just getting outplayed? The Flutter Mane player is getting rewarded for baiting in its checks and maintaining momentum.

Flutter also has some other issues with being in the tier which I didn't mention above;

It's got a Fake Out immunity pre-Tera which allows it to force progress. Good set variety beyond Specs with primarily Sash sets and to a degree Fairy Z even though I think it's pretty ass. It also has a very wide move pool which is still kind of underexplored with options like Fake Tears, coverage options on Specs such as Mystical Fire and Tera Blast, and CM, realistically this isn't even necessary to look into due to it's almost ridiculous STAB combination. Another thing is how easy it is to slot on near enough any viable team structures.

I think this is honestly fine as of right now, whether the Flutter Mane is Specs, Sash, or something new like CM, counterplay is rather consistent: Rillaboom / Heatran / Amoonguss eat the hits and handle it adequately. It can use some things like Mystical Fire to beat some of its checks like Amoonguss, but feel much worse into Heatran. I don't think it has gotten unhealthy.

Im just yapping and don't remember half of what I said so if I ever said something in a rude tone please don't take it to heart.

 

[sir jelloton]

I will be voting BAN on Flutter Mane. Flutter Manes influence on NDDOU exists with a lot of interesting nuances and it isn't quite as clear cut negative to me as some other mons have been in the past. I do wish some of the stronger tournament players leaning dnb would post their arguments because I do believe respectable opinions about flutter exist, but a lot of the support for flutters place in the tier are really signs of ignorance about national dex doubles as a whole.

Flutter compared to its competition in the fast attacker/spread move spammer Is far more effective than any other option in the tier barring Deoxys-Attack who is also on the chopping block(which mind you is only on non sun compositions. In sun it is by far and away the best offensive mon in the tier). It is in the top 3 fastest mons in the tier while simultaneously being one of the strongest in the tier with access to some of the best offensive stabs the game has to offer. Players that are not as strong do not comprehend how much smaller the amount of available counterplay is for flutter mane than almost every other attacker, and are somewhat oblivious to just how much it can dumb down the game especially on sun compositions.

While I do think that perhaps an argument could be made that at higher levels of play enough solutions in the builder exist and aren't even necessarily that limited if pointed to recent innovations, I maintain that even at the top level Flutter enables far too simple gameplans relative to how effective the mon is, and a ban would show a massive improvement to the tiers skill expression both in the builder and in the game. Ban Flutter Mane.

 

[IsaiahMeep]

Alright i did some chill ladder games for like an hour till i reached the requirment and im pretty happy as this is my first suspect test I didnt have any strong opinions about flutter manes place in the tier as i wanted to vote for the love of the game BUT i will do my best. I think flutter mane is obviously very strong and a high A or S tier mon in literally any non restricted doubles format, however this format is especially equipped for this mon with so much physical priority running amuck. Additionally I think that if you take out something like flutter other powerful mons like deoxys or iron hands may become problematic. Flutter is one of the strongest mons in the tier but I think its place is relativley healthy with a speed tier and damage thats extremely strong sure and you have to be prepared for it, but that wont be any different for the next mons that ends up being the next no. 1 option, overall there are tools to stop it consistently that are frequent enough that it doesnt seem to restricting . So i will probably be voting for DO NOT BAN ( sry dont know how to do bold font lol)