Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[FCKNfuego]

I am confused why anti-Tera players are against banning Tera Blast. If you dont like Tera, compromises and complex bans are the best way to inch closer to banning Tera. Regardless of what is being said now, there is a possibility that in the future Tera becomes too much and it will be acted upon, like Gems, Sand Rush, or Chlorophyll in BW. Play the long game.

Banning it does nothing to address what is imbalanced about Tera.

It lowers variance of some movesets a bit but many of these pokemon have many good variable options for Tera in their standard moveset anyway and if Tera Blast were ever removed...they would just adjust to these moves anyway.

Counters and checks will shift but ultimately you will be playing mostly the same overly offensive metagame.

As long as type changing along with boosted attacks exists in the way that it currently does this will not change....

Also looking at it objectively it's just not an inherently broken move

) Inherently Broken Nature

• The element is so powerful or disruptive that it creates a significant imbalance in the metagame, regardless of which Pokemon employs it.
• There is no reasonable context or distribution that would render the element balanced by ordinary means.

II.) Universal Applicability Across Eligible Users

• The element is not just situationally powerful on one or two Pokemon; it is universally problematic across all or most potential users.
• Example: If a move is only broken due to unique synergy with one or two specific Pokemon, then we default to banning those Pokemon rather than the move itself.

III.) No Plausible Scenario for Balance

• There is no current situation in which the element would be balanced on Pokemon that currently have it.
• If giving the element to weaker or niche Pokemon that are still recognisably viable within the tier could be balanced, then the element is not considered universally broken.

From this updated post.

Terablast does not create an imbalance regardless of who uses it, not even close, but...

"Significant imbalance" is what people are going to argue for here but this doesn't really mean anything as it's not defined. People are going to just disagree on what this means and feel like they will always have grounds for an argument but you can use this move on just about every pokemon....and it's not creating an inherent "significant imbalance" with like 99% of them.

The move is not universally problematic across all of most potential users .....(Same logic above covers this)

Same logic also applies to the point of weaker / niche Pokemon that are recognized viably being balanced in the tier with the move. This is pretty much the standard now....You don't see average pokemon ripping through tiers solely because of Terablast

Given all of these....just don't see how this has any legs.

It's just an attempt to change the metagame slightly for something that's annoying but ultimately won't do much.

 

[DartTamarin519]

Wasn't the original tblast-ban argument about it being too cheesy/fishy and not adding enough to the meta game to make up for its cheeky nature?

 

[Dragonair Bot]

Wasn't the original tblast-ban argument about it being too cheesy/fishy and not adding enough to the meta game to make up for its cheeky nature?

I think that pro Tera Blast players are arguing that playing around it is significant skill expression.
Furthermore, the burden of proof is on the side changing the status quo, and being "cheesy" isn't enough for a ban so people have been using other words in tgd policy, such as uncompetitive or broken.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

A lot of times I wonder if the "creativity" of this gen is just coming up with a cheesy set that involves Tera Blast.
I have just lost to Tera Ghost DDance Sub Kyurem. I know it's an extremely uncommon set, but I hate how the cheesy nature of gen 9 OU allows such kind of sets to exist.
Every matchup feels like either you land that one crucial status move at one turn, or your entire game is thrown away.

 

[soupeater]

A lot of times I wonder if the "creativity" of this gen is just coming up with a cheesy set that involves Tera Blast.
I have just lost to Tera Ghost DDance Sub Kyurem. I know it's an extremely uncommon set, but I hate how the cheesy nature of gen 9 OU allows such kind of sets to exist.
Every matchup feels like either you land that one crucial status move at one turn, or your entire game is thrown away.

Was the Kyurem set using tera blast? Seems a bit weird considering Kyurem learns Shadow Claw and I've seen talk on this thread before of tera ghost on Kyurem to boost that or Shadow Ball

 

[ShizuOsaka]

Was the Kyurem set using tera blast? Seems a bit weird considering Kyurem learns Shadow Claw and I've seen talk on this thread before of tera ghost on Kyurem to boost that or Shadow Ball

Yes. It used Terablast.
Shadow Claw has a lower attack point, and the crit chance doesn't offer as much as 10 more BP

 

[Avira]

A lot of times I wonder if the "creativity" of this gen is just coming up with a cheesy set that involves Tera Blast.
I have just lost to Tera Ghost DDance Sub Kyurem. I know it's an extremely uncommon set, but I hate how the cheesy nature of gen 9 OU allows such kind of sets to exist.
Every matchup feels like either you land that one crucial status move at one turn, or your entire game is thrown away.

I feel for you. I don't believe there's even a remotely good way to determine that that set you faced is that set just by looking at your opponent's team composition. This is one of the reasons SV OU has such high variance in that you can not only change a mon's types to gain more set-up opportunities but also gain powerful coverage of any type through Tera Blast, circumventing its natural movepool limitations. I believe the dynamics and the interactions, both in game sequencing and building, that Tera Blast heavily influences are a net negative due to the arguably unhealthy and uncompetitive effects that manifest due to it.

 

[toshimelonhead]

The Tera Ghost DD Kyurem set has its origins from the WCoP finals set here. The set in that match didn't even use Tera Blast, but that doesn't mean Tera isn't a factor here. Tera Blast the move is basically a souped up Hidden Power. Tera the mechanic is the bigger issue as swapping types mid turn can turn a revenge kill into a sweep -- and that's why SV OU has the variance and learning curve it does. Also note Tera Ghost Encore DD Nite "CancerNite" is also popping up for similar reasons (DD / Tera Blast / Encore / Extreme Speed). Both sets are designed to prevent Zamazenta revenge kills.

 

[igiveuponaname]

The Tera Ghost DD Kyurem set has its origins from the WCoP finals set here. The set in that match didn't even use Tera Blast, but that doesn't mean Tera isn't a factor here.

The set has definitely seen play long before this game from WCoP, though I forget exactly when it first showed up. I wanna say sometime during SPL? I don't really remember too well

 

[Disscratch]

The set has definitely seen play long before this game from WCoP, though I forget exactly when it first showed up. I wanna say sometime during SPL? I don't really remember too well

Pretty sure one of the earliest sighting of Tera Ghost Dragon Dance was around November 2024 during OUPL VIII. It was even used alongside Roar for similar anti-Zamazenta purposes while also denying emergency phazing from other would-be answers like Moltres or Whirlwind Ting-Lu.

 

[Excalibuwrath]

The set has definitely seen play long before this game from WCoP, though I forget exactly when it first showed up. I wanna say sometime during SPL? I don't really remember too well

To specify for anyone interested, I'm pretty sure the first time SubTectDD Kyurem showed up was week 9 of SPL this year (I guess theoretically someone could have brought it to seasonal or something first, I have no idea and don't really feel like scrolling through replays to check). Disscratch mentioned a game from 2024 but that's a different set with very different goals, functioning more akin to a Roar Zama than a SubTect Kyurem on roids.

As far as I can find, it showed up for the first time in week 9 and got brought four times that week, going 3-1: aesf (beating Lily), Nat (beating Niko), Eternal Spirit (beating Lax), and stareal (losing to Kate). aesf just kinda 6-0'd with it; maybe if Lily had identified that Clef just gets set up on after Tera and used something else as an initial response it could have been manageable, but the matchup is just kinda rough on preview. Nat also just kinda smashes on preview because Torn gets set up on and Tran gets PP-stalled even without Tera, although I can't help but think that this game could have been over in much less than 200 turns if Nat just clicked Tera Ghost against the Clef and tried to force through it rather than play it slowly and let Tran heal all the way back up. Eternal Spirit might have had the most free matchup of all of them because that Kyurem sets up on half of Lax's team and just spirals out of control after a single DD; it comes in on turn 4 and proceeds to not leave the field until the game is over, only taking so long because it just has to get to +6 on Mola and wait for the right Icicle Spear rolls before it can break it. Stareal, meanwhile, draws Tera Water Unaware CM Clef alongside a Gholdengo.

I get complaining about it, but at the same time there are only a few matchups that you even use Tera Ghost for on this set, the real demonic work of the set being that you PP stall everything because of Pressure while punishing passive counterplay to the standard SubTect set far harder thanks to DD. I mean, yeah, Kyurem's disgusting, what else is new.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Good callouts as I figured players were smart enough to figure out that set long before WCoP, but it was the first I saw it on tape. The PP stall is definitely the demonic part of that set, especially for Zamazenta when Crunch or Heavy Slam fails to break subs and Protect heals up HP every other turn. It honestly might push Kyurem back over the edge to "ban" for me only because Kyurem can run 20 different sets that are really tough to differentiate between when it's in the hands of a dangerous player.

 

[LoseToRU?]

How are we feeling about Zamazenta? I've seen an uptick of RestoChesto, but the Roar set can let it beat it's usual checks, other Zama included. I'm still using the Sub variant to really handle BO teams- a lot of teams really are 1, maybe 2 mons away from getting completely ran over by Zama.
The AoA set is also nice, it's a mon that can kinda pick and choose it's counters, which is typically a major red flag for a mon. Molt, Pult, Enam, Val, etc. are not a fan of my Tera Fire set, and it feels insanely cheesy to just blow past a Flying mon with Flame Body using a Fighting move.

There's a reason we're seeing Ghost Kyu and the popular Ghost/Encore Nite.
I'm very aware that it's not "broken" but just want to make sure we're not putting the horse before the cart here. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a meta where we keep Nite and lose Zama; I'm not sure if it's a healthy presence in the tier anymore.
Gambit is back to running Ghost/Fairy, so idk the merits of Zama "keeping Gambit in check"

I think the tier is in a decent place, but if I woke up tomorrow and Woger, Gambit, Nite and Zama were gone I don't think I'd particularly miss them. Maybe Kyu as well but personally I rarely even see it much less have trouble with it. It's a great mon just not splashable, you kinda have to build around it more than u do other mons, but I digress. Also, I said I'd rather keep Nite than Zama, but tbh I've been sick of the E-Cheese set for years now. It 2HKOs like 75% of the meta lol... again, I know it's not broken just really obnoxious.

Gen 8 we kept Mel around to "keep Pult and Weav in check" and idk maybe I'm too quick to want mons gone but my logic is just ban all 3 then.. the argument that Zama keeps Gambit in check is the same for me.

Honestly just want to open a dialog about it. I'm feeling like Zama is putting a major strain on the builder, forcing several mons to run Tera Ghost, and is a win-con that a lot of teams struggle to manage. If bulky Ghold or Pech is your team's only stop to getting swept by Zama, then that puts a lot of strain on what plays to make, and makes you a little predictable. Idk, kinda rambling at this point, feel free to correct me if needed.

 

[Magcargo]

How are we feeling about Zamazenta? I've seen an uptick of RestoChesto, but the Roar set can let it beat it's usual checks, other Zama included. I'm still using the Sub variant to really handle BO teams- a lot of teams really are 1, maybe 2 mons away from getting completely ran over by Zama.
The AoA set is also nice, it's a mon that can kinda pick and choose it's counters, which is typically a major red flag for a mon. Molt, Pult, Enam, Val, etc. are not a fan of my Tera Fire set, and it feels insanely cheesy to just blow past a Flying mon with Flame Body using a Fighting move.

There's a reason we're seeing Ghost Kyu and the popular Ghost/Encore Nite.
I'm very aware that it's not "broken" but just want to make sure we're not putting the horse before the cart here. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a meta where we keep Nite and lose Zama; I'm not sure if it's a healthy presence in the tier anymore.
Gambit is back to running Ghost/Fairy, so idk the merits of Zama "keeping Gambit in check"

I think the tier is in a decent place, but if I woke up tomorrow and Woger, Gambit, Nite and Zama were gone I don't think I'd particularly miss them. Maybe Kyu as well but personally I rarely even see it much less have trouble with it. It's a great mon just not splashable, you kinda have to build around it more than u do other mons, but I digress. Also, I said I'd rather keep Nite than Zama, but tbh I've been sick of the E-Cheese set for years now. It 2HKOs like 75% of the meta lol... again, I know it's not broken just really obnoxious.

Gen 8 we kept Mel around to "keep Pult and Weav in check" and idk maybe I'm too quick to want mons gone but my logic is just ban all 3 then.. the argument that Zama keeps Gambit in check is the same for me.

Honestly just want to open a dialog about it. I'm feeling like Zama is putting a major strain on the builder, forcing several mons to run Tera Ghost, and is a win-con that a lot of teams struggle to manage. If bulky Ghold or Pech is your team's only stop to getting swept by Zama, then that puts a lot of strain on what plays to make, and makes you a little predictable. Idk, kinda rambling at this point, feel free to correct me if needed.

Rest Chesto is the only set i use because it improves its defensive profile vs enemy Woger, rai, and Gambit which can be annoying. Roar is cool vs Enemy Zama or ID Corv, but I just prefer the safer option of Rest.

I'm mixed on Zama in general. ID is dumb dumb cheese that might be unhealthy, but isnt broken because of how many roadblocks it has + 4MSS. It can win MUs on preview but even then you have options to annoy it like Tera Fairy or Ghost on most mons. AoA sets might be closer to broken since their switch ins are more sparse, but it also sacrifices too much defensive utility imo to make it easy to slap onto a team - you need some support from other guys like Gking to get it going.

I do like Zamas ability to act as a blanket check to mons like Weavile, Darkrai, and Meowscarada. If played well, the aforementioned mons are among the most difficult mons in the tier to switch into, so having a mon like Zama to check them in a pinch is nice.. Even then though, using Zamazenta as a check to these Pokemon can also feel flimsy, between it losing to their common partners like Ghold or Pecharunt, and lacking long-term progress making tools in general. Kingambit I feel falls into a similar trap. It just feels much stronger to use both Gambit / Zama as wincons than as checks to Pokémon since both are better at going for the win than making meaningful, long term progress as Defensivd / offensive hybrid mons. Wouldnt ban either tbh, but its just something I notice.

 

[Dragonair Bot]

To specify for anyone interested, I'm pretty sure the first time SubTectDD Kyurem showed up was week 9 of SPL this year (I guess theoretically someone could have brought it to seasonal or something first, I have no idea and don't really feel like scrolling through replays to check). Disscratch mentioned a game from 2024 but that's a different set with very different goals, functioning more akin to a Roar Zama than a SubTect Kyurem on roids.

As far as I can find, it showed up for the first time in week 9 and got brought four times that week, going 3-1: aesf (beating Lily), Nat (beating Niko), Eternal Spirit (beating Lax), and stareal (losing to Kate). aesf just kinda 6-0'd with it; maybe if Lily had identified that Clef just gets set up on after Tera and used something else as an initial response it could have been manageable, but the matchup is just kinda rough on preview. Nat also just kinda smashes on preview because Torn gets set up on and Tran gets PP-stalled even without Tera, although I can't help but think that this game could have been over in much less than 200 turns if Nat just clicked Tera Ghost against the Clef and tried to force through it rather than play it slowly and let Tran heal all the way back up. Eternal Spirit might have had the most free matchup of all of them because that Kyurem sets up on half of Lax's team and just spirals out of control after a single DD; it comes in on turn 4 and proceeds to not leave the field until the game is over, only taking so long because it just has to get to +6 on Mola and wait for the right Icicle Spear rolls before it can break it. Stareal, meanwhile, draws Tera Water Unaware CM Clef alongside a Gholdengo.

I get complaining about it, but at the same time there are only a few matchups that you even use Tera Ghost for on this set, the real demonic work of the set being that you PP stall everything because of Pressure while punishing passive counterplay to the standard SubTect set far harder thanks to DD. I mean, yeah, Kyurem's disgusting, what else is new.

I coukd have sworn there was an earlier time someone brought subtexctdd kyurem with a crazy pawmont/cresselia pp stall core, but I could be remembering wrong. It might ve just been a meme before then.

 

[TPP]

I coukd have sworn there was an earlier time someone brought subtexctdd kyurem with a crazy pawmont/cresselia pp stall core, but I could be remembering wrong. It might ve just been a meme before then.

It was initially made by ima in a money tour finals and later used by Xrn in SPL

 

[JackRG]

There's a reason we're seeing Ghost Kyu and the popular Ghost/Encore Nite.
I'm very aware that it's not "broken" but just want to make sure we're not putting the horse before the cart here. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a meta where we keep Nite and lose Zama; I'm not sure if it's a healthy presence in the tier anymore.
Gambit is back to running Ghost/Fairy, so idk the merits of Zama "keeping Gambit in check"

I think the tier is in a decent place, but if I woke up tomorrow and Woger, Gambit, Nite and Zama were gone I don't think I'd particularly miss them. Maybe Kyu as well but personally I rarely even see it much less have trouble with it. It's a great mon just not splashable, you kinda have to build around it more than u do other mons, but I digress. Also, I said I'd rather keep Nite than Zama, but tbh I've been sick of the E-Cheese set for years now. It 2HKOs like 75% of the meta lol... again, I know it's not broken just really obnoxious.

Gen 8 we kept Mel around to "keep Pult and Weav in check" and idk maybe I'm too quick to want mons gone but my logic is just ban all 3 then.. the argument that Zama keeps Gambit in check is the same for me.

Honestly just want to open a dialog about it. I'm feeling like Zama is putting a major strain on the builder, forcing several mons to run Tera Ghost, and is a win-con that a lot of teams struggle to manage. If bulky Ghold or Pech is your team's only stop to getting swept by Zama, then that puts a lot of strain on what plays to make, and makes you a little predictable. Idk, kinda rambling at this point, feel free to correct me if needed.

If we ever get rid of the broken physical attackers (especially Woger), then I think this is a discussion worth having, but imo there's no reason to test zama with a million much more broken things in the tier. Also the gen 8 comparison doesn't make a lot of sense to me, maybe just because gen 8 ou is both much easier and more enjoyable to build in.