NP - Devil's Haircut: SV ND DOU Suspect Process 7: Flutter Mane

[big pichu]

Suspect Reasoning - written by eragon

Following the release of the latest tiering survey, the council has decided to suspect test Flutter Mane in SV National Dex Doubles. Flutter Mane has had a long and controversial history in SV Doubles formats, being suspected three times in SV DOU over the course of the generation and regularly being a topic of contention in this tier as well. While Flutter Mane has long been one of, if not the, strongest Pokemon in the format for years at this point, it has often been overshadowed by slightly less popular, but more overtly broken and uncompetitive Pokemon, such as the recent bans of Stakataka and Shadow Tag (primarily used by Gothitelle). However, the tier has been given plenty of time to settle down following the Shadow Tag ban and much of the playerbase clearly feels that Flutter Mane is suspect-worthy (a feeling shared by the council), with it scoring a 3.06 out of 5 on the latest tiering survey– notably higher than Stakataka and Shadow Tag prior to being banned.
Flutter Mane is one of most ubiquitous and strongest offensive options in National Dex Doubles while also having a fair amount of set versatility. It’s excellent offensive typing of Ghost and Fairy allows it to threaten large amounts of neutral damage on much of metagame while possessing one of the highest speed stats in the tier at 135, outpacing almost every other fast offensive option like Marshadow, Mega Salamence, and even (the more supportive) Tapu Koko. Flutter Mane uses its Fairy STAB to deal huge damage with single target Moonblast and output decently strong spread damage with Dazzling Gleam, a generally weak attack that can become capable of dishing out impressive damage when paired with any attack boost. Choice Specs with Tera Fairy is probably Flutter Mane’s most common and arguably broken set, with unparalleled speed and unboosted offensive damage output, picking up OHKO’s on Pokemon that are weak to Fairy like the aforementioned Mega Salamence, or even frailer neutral targets like Landorus or Tapu Koko, and at the very least 2HKO’ing everything that doesn’t resist it. Flutter Mane can also opt to run the Booster Energy item to unlock a Protosynthesis speed boost, freeing up more EVs for bulk and becoming the fastest Pokemon in the tier while being able to more easily click supporting moves like Icy Wind. Focus Sash sets have also seen some success in the past as well, allowing Flutter Mane to compensate for its weak physical bulk.
Flutter Mane is not without some clearly defined weaknesses. First, Flutter Mane’s physical bulk is generally quite frail, allowing for most strong physical attackers to easily remove it if they can attack first or take a hit from Flutter Mane. Secondly, Flutter Mane’s general preference for using its slightly stronger Fairy STAB makes Pokemon like Heatran or Amoonguss generally fairly good at handling its damage output, although both can sometimes struggle to deal damage to Flutter Mane, due to its high special bulk. Furthermore, many of the common resists to Moonblast still take high damage from Specs Shadow Ball, with even Pokemon with high Special Bulk like Heatran needing high investment to prevent it from being a two hit KO. As such, it can be difficult to find Pokemon that can both comfortably take hits from Flutter while still being capable of removing it for teammates.
Flutter Mane has also greatly appreciated some of the recent meta changes, such as the banning of Stakataka, which took away both one of the best physical Steel types in the format and one of the best Trick Room setters, an archetype that more offensive Flutter Mane teams could often struggle to handle. With the metagame having been given a fair amount of time to settle following the last few bans and NDPL approaching soon, the council feels that the time is right to finally suspect test Flutter Mane in National Dex Doubles.

As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to ban Flutter Mane.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Natdex DOU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played DOU before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, sealoo, or bumboclaat, or a member of staff.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Smudge , big pichu, or eragon - or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900 (and a B value of 5 - you do not need to worry about this it is just for the formula).
The suspect laddering period is now underway and the deadline for getting requirements is Sunday, August 10th, 6:00 PM Pacific Time (GMT-7).

Flutter Mane will be legal during this suspect.

Suspect Test Ladder Rules:

• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular National Dex Doubles ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The element being tested, Flutter Mane, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.

Discussion Thread Rules:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Flutter Mane is banworthy or not - not other elements of the metagame;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Flutter Mane vs other potential suspects;
• Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
• You are required to make respectful posts; Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

Sample Teams

 

[the great mega]

flutter is one of those mons that should be banned imo but I'ma be happy either way flutter go crazy

 

[sheepie]

That was a fucking nightmare of (my worst ever no joke) rng, ladder being cancer, and most of all an immense skill issue, but finally got to the end.

Flutter mane isn't the most powerful, fast, or annoying mon in the tier, but it is all three to a very high extent at once. It can have absurd poewr with specs, tera, zmoves, and the prevelance of sun/booster energy, it is insanely offensively oppressive and invalidates many special attackers in the builder. Next it is fast af, it speed creeps so much naturally not even taking into account booster speed, where it can creep flipping 90 speed mons WITH TW, and use icy wind, or more evilly thunder wave (more on this later) to ruin many mons days. It single handedly runs speed control outside of torn in the tier, forcing you to either go faster (or more commonly tied with ur own flutter), super bulky, or tr, and can also easily revenge KO so many offensive threats. Next, this mon is insanely annoying, my least favourite set is 100% twave, because the move itself on something so fast and powerful is immensely unhealthy, and can easily ruin or cripple threats, whilst slotting easily onto many different builds (if it stays i do think twave should see a surge in usage its genuinely so powerful), furthermore its set variety is absolutely insane. Fast booster, spatk booster, cm, specs, sash all stabs, sash icy wind, every one very strong in their own right, and each one having completely different roles, and you can't tell whats coming from preview, making it a nightmarish guessing game about whether you will autolose or not, if they play the flutter correctly. Now this is overstating how powerful each set/the variety, but its not far from the truth. This set variety solves another, arguably more annoyoing, point, it means flutter outclasses/makes worthless so many other mons that could be legit in another meta. This is why I can see no reason this should stay in the tier. I will be voting ban (if I remember :skull:)

 

[gephicka]

ftr i have PigWarrior19 's consent for this alt

speedran reqs using this team that i was passed by my fellow reqs speedruner (and 2 out of my 4 losses) eragon, i'll keep my thoughts short for the moment and make a bigger post later.

long story short, flutter mane will always be the most centralizing mon in any non-restricted format that it's in. Its speed tier and damage output are elite and it warps the entire tier around it. i think this guy should not be allowed in any DOU format— even though this format has a lot of tools to deal with it, its presence in the metagame forces so much respect in game & (to a lesser extent) in the builder. so many games come down to weakening the opposing team in order to make way for a flutter mane sweep in back because of how excellent its speed tier is in comparison to the rest of the tier— even moreso when used in conjunction with the excellent charizard-y. removing flutter mane for the tier will, in my opinion, lead to a less centralized and more competitive format overall.

ban flutter mane

 

[LovelyLuna]

Flutter Mane is an excellent wincon, its very fast, its very strong, it has a good spread move, and easily one of the best typings in the game. Flutter Mane has many good partners that further bolster its capabilities. However, I believe the same can be said for many offensive Pokemon. It's not necessarily a bad thing that Flutter Mane is a very good wincon that rewards you for playing well and wittling down its checks. It's hardly an issue in the builder since many splashable Pokemon can take it on fairly well, including Iron Hands, Rillaboom, Heatran, and Ogerpon-Hearthflame.

I think Flutter Mane is fast but not TOO fast, it needs its own speed control to keep up with opposing tailwind, it isn't outspeeding scarfers or deoxys without a protosynthesis boost. Flutter Mane is strong but not TOO strong, many Pokemon can eat a Choice Specs Moonblast and OHKO / 2HKO it in return, Flutter Mane's bulk in particular hurts and makes it hard for me to see her as broken in a doubles context; Dazzling Gleam will always be an 80 BP move that can't 2HKO Iron Hands without Tera Fairy.

I will be voting Do Not Ban

 

[Pengu]

just got reqs (1552 29 W 4 L with 2924 coil) and I gotta say ladder sucks. But that's not why I'm posting

I think flutter is an insane Pokemon to be legal in any normal dou format. But this is nddou. I think this tier has the tools to handle Flutter Mane well enough to contain it and make it feel not as broken as some make it seem. we have jirachi, bulky av mons like rilla and incin, cm fini, seed indeedee, spdef celesteela, etc. I'm not too good at arguing anything lol but I'll be voting do not ban.

Of course, I'll recognize the ban side, which I was part of for a while. Flutter Mane, notably specs sets, are insanely powerful and can beat a lot of the meta. Teams or players that aren't prepared for the threat of Flutter Mane can just lose the endgame. Playing around flutter takes some effort (but not too much, preserve your Pokemon!!!).

 

[cosmicdom96]

This is my first time participating in a suspect test, so not 100% sure if I submit my vote here or elsewhere (help would be much appreciated ) but I got my eligibility last night, so here we go.
I'm sure that I have the same opinion as many others who will post on here as time goes on, but the mon is insane. Super fast, hits hard, fantastic sun abuser, etc., so I'll just keep it simple. I'm gonna vote to ban flutter mane.

 

[gephicka]

This is my first time participating in a suspect test, so not 100% sure if I submit my vote here or elsewhere (help would be much appreciated ) but I got my eligibility last night, so here we go.

you will be pinged after the suspect period is over & voting is open

 

[cosmicdom96]

just got reqs (1552 29 W 4 L) and I gotta say ladder sucks. But that's not why I'm posting

I think flutter is an insane Pokemon to be legal in any normal dou format. But this is nddou. I think this tier has the tools to handle Flutter Mane well enough to contain it and make it feel not as broken as some make it seem. we have jirachi, bulky av mons like rilla and incin, cm fini, seed indeedee, spdef celesteela, etc. I'm not too good at arguing anything lol but I'll be voting do not ban.

Of course, I'll recognize the ban side, which I was part of for a while. Flutter Mane, notably specs sets, are insanely powerful and can beat a lot of the meta. Teams or players that aren't prepared for the threat of Flutter Mane can just lose the endgame. Playing around flutter takes some effort (but not too much, preserve your Pokemon!!!).

you will be pinged after the suspect period is over & voting is open

Amazing! Tysm :D

 

[Edelgard]

just got reqs (1552 29 W 4 L with 2924 coil) and I gotta say ladder sucks. But that's not why I'm posting

I think flutter is an insane Pokemon to be legal in any normal dou format. But this is nddou. I think this tier has the tools to handle Flutter Mane well enough to contain it and make it feel not as broken as some make it seem. we have jirachi, bulky av mons like rilla and incin, cm fini, seed indeedee, spdef celesteela, etc. I'm not too good at arguing anything lol but I'll be voting do not ban.

Of course, I'll recognize the ban side, which I was part of for a while. Flutter Mane, notably specs sets, are insanely powerful and can beat a lot of the meta. Teams or players that aren't prepared for the threat of Flutter Mane can just lose the endgame. Playing around flutter takes some effort (but not too much, preserve your Pokemon!!!).

What about Flutter Mane's teammates?

 

[LovelyLuna]

What about Flutter Mane's teammates?

A teammate like Charizard-Y can handle Jirachi, Rillaboom, Celesteela, a teammate like Raging Bolt can take on Tapu Fini, a Landorus can help cover for Jirachi, Iron Hands, Heatran, etc. None of these are perfect offensive duos though, always missing something. I dont think Flutter Mane + offensive teammate is very different to other offensive cores in the tier, like Marshadow + Rillaboom / Chien-Pao, Mega-Salamence + Landorus / Heatran, Mega Tyranitar + Dracovish / Rillaboom. Flutter Mane is definitely a little more powerful, Choice Specs hits so hard while being so fast, its more borderline than almost every other Pokemon in the tier, but I still don't believe this makes it banworthy. It isn't suffocating in the builder or play, its just really strong and provides good rewards for correct play..

 

[sheepie]

A teammate like Charizard-Y can handle Jirachi, Rillaboom, Celesteela, a teammate like Raging Bolt can take on Tapu Fini, a Landorus can help cover for Jirachi, Iron Hands, Heatran, etc. None of these are perfect offensive duos though, always missing something. I dont think Flutter Mane + offensive teammate is very different to other offensive cores in the tier, like Marshadow + Rillaboom / Chien-Pao, Mega-Salamence + Landorus / Heatran, Mega Tyranitar + Dracovish / Rillaboom. Flutter Mane is definitely a little more powerful, Choice Specs hits so hard while being so fast, its more borderline than almost every other Pokemon in the tier, but I still don't believe this makes it banworthy. It isn't suffocating in the builder or play, its just really strong and provides good rewards for correct play..

I feel Flutter + a pairing imo is much more overbearing then the mentioned other offensive pairs, notably through its ability to support its teammates and very overbearing power and speed, as well as its immense versatility such that the counter for flutter, and for the pairings are very unpredictable, and even if you have the right answer most are relatively easily overpowered by the sheer offence provided. I also find that the flexibility of such cores as flutter zard y / raging bolt allows for many more strong partners then the other cores, which usually need a relatively high level of support to function, flutter whereas can function as the offensive monster and the supportive piece at the same time. I also find it very restrictive on the builder, but that's just personally. I am likely very wrong with my takes lol.

 

[EatFoods]

Hi, since I suck at long posts and am speaking from personal experience/memorable tour games so this might be ass sorry, in advance for the slop posting and cherry picking :fire:

-

I think Flutter Mane is fast but not TOO fast, it needs its own speed control to keep up with opposing tailwind, it isn't outspeeding scarfers or deoxys without a protosynthesis boost

ZardY is by far Flutter's best partner, a very free bring in this tier, and it's able to fix this issue by carrying TW which sun structures already really appreciate allowing it to be the fastest viable mon in the tier. It also carries it's own Icy Wind pretty often for more direct Speed control.

Flutter Mane's bulk in particular hurts and makes it hard for me to see her as broken in a doubles context

There's a lot of utility options on top mons in the tier that kind of make Flutter's bulk a non issue for it (Intim being on pre-Mega Mence and Incin, Fake Out on Incin, Rilla, Hands, and Zera, and Redirection from Pons, Amoong, and Rachi).

jirachi, bulky av mons like rilla and incin, cm fini, seed indeedee, spdef celesteela

Most of these just get worn down by Flutter over the game or struggle into/lose to it's common partners.

It isn't suffocating in the builder or play, its just really strong and provides good rewards for correct play

The issue with Flutter in both builder and play is that you have to use niche options (Steela, AV Zera) to comfortably be able to beat it every game; options like Heatran or Amoonguss are able to switch into Fairy STABs but are punished by SBall and obviously it can come with the downside of you switching your check in and Flutter targets the other slot/switches out to beat that check and come in later.

-

Flutter also has some other issues with being in the tier which I didn't mention above;

It's got a Fake Out immunity pre-Tera which allows it to force progress. Good set variety beyond Specs with primarily Sash sets and to a degree Fairy Z even though I think it's pretty ass. It also has a very wide move pool which is still kind of underexplored with options like Fake Tears, coverage options on Specs such as Mystical Fire and Tera Blast, and CM, realistically this isn't even necessary to look into due to it's almost ridiculous STAB combination. Another thing is how easy it is to slot on near enough any viable team structures.

-

Obviously it's a bit biased for me to just rant about "ban Flutter" without speaking about counter arguments/reasons for it to stay unbanned like;

How counter play exists with some stuff that I mentioned above (Amoong, Steela, AV Zera, etc) which allow you to punish Flutter with your partner and get the kill if you manage to position around it well or slow the game down and stomp it's momentum. There's a lot of counterplay options that are probably niche and usable, and not explored very well yet like Ferrothorn. Although, an issue in my eyes is that a lot of these check is that they passive into 1 or 2 of Flutter's more relevant partners like Jirachi, ZardY, and MMence.

-

My closing thoughts are ban Farter Mane due to it's stupid offensive capabilities which are only boosted by very common partners who are also very viable and easy to slot with it.

Will be reading thread so happy to respond to stuff, so please dont flame me too hard LMAO

BAN FLUTTER 25

 

[LovelyLuna]

ZardY is by far Flutter's best partner, a very free bring in this tier, and it's able to fix this issue by carrying TW which sun structures already really appreciate allowing it to be the fastest viable mon in the tier. It also carries it's own Icy Wind pretty often for more direct Speed control.

This is true, but my point stands. Flutter Mane wants speed control to match opposing speed control, can get a little yucky vs something like Tornadus. Its raw speed isn't as ridiculous imo, and even with Protosynthesis.

There's a lot of utility options on top mons in the tier that kind of make Flutter's bulk a non issue for it (Intim being on pre-Mega Mence and Incin, Fake Out on Incin, Rilla, Hands, and Zera, and Redirection from Pons, Amoong, and Rachi).

Most of these just get worn down by Flutter over the game or struggle into/lose to it's common partners.

I think this is healthy gameplay that comes up with standard offensive Pokemon. Flutter Mane with redirection or fake out is producing massive damage output without dying, same for Eruption Heatran, Charizard-Y, even single target attackers like Raging Bolt and Landorus achieve this. Mega-Salamence and Landorus-T can eat hits from Marshadow and make good progress, but won't be taking repeated hits or handling it when its next to a Chien-Pao. Tapu Fini can take Marshadow on pretty easily, but Rillaboom makes quick work of it. This is just standard offensive synergy between Pokemon, I don't think Flutter Mane is any less unreasonable to play around.

The issue with Flutter in both builder and play is that you have to use niche options (Steela, AV Zera) to comfortably be able to beat it every game; options like Heatran or Amoonguss are able to switch into Fairy STABs but are punished by SBall and obviously it can come with the downside of you switching your check in and Flutter targets the other slot/switches out to beat that check and come in later.

Those niche options are very much optional, you can be using Heatran, Amoonguss, AV Rillaboom, Iron Hands, which are some of the most splashable Pokemon in the metagame. Amoonguss can force plays from Flutter Mane with Spore and Rage Powder and if SpD withstands two Choice Specs Shadow Balls anyway. If you hadyour other slot unprotected or got read with a double switch, is this not just getting outplayed? The Flutter Mane player is getting rewarded for baiting in its checks and maintaining momentum.

Flutter also has some other issues with being in the tier which I didn't mention above;

It's got a Fake Out immunity pre-Tera which allows it to force progress. Good set variety beyond Specs with primarily Sash sets and to a degree Fairy Z even though I think it's pretty ass. It also has a very wide move pool which is still kind of underexplored with options like Fake Tears, coverage options on Specs such as Mystical Fire and Tera Blast, and CM, realistically this isn't even necessary to look into due to it's almost ridiculous STAB combination. Another thing is how easy it is to slot on near enough any viable team structures.

I think this is honestly fine as of right now, whether the Flutter Mane is Specs, Sash, or something new like CM, counterplay is rather consistent: Rillaboom / Heatran / Amoonguss eat the hits and handle it adequately. It can use some things like Mystical Fire to beat some of its checks like Amoonguss, but feel much worse into Heatran. I don't think it has gotten unhealthy.

Im just yapping and don't remember half of what I said so if I ever said something in a rude tone please don't take it to heart.

 

[sir jelloton]

I will be voting BAN on Flutter Mane. Flutter Manes influence on NDDOU exists with a lot of interesting nuances and it isn't quite as clear cut negative to me as some other mons have been in the past. I do wish some of the stronger tournament players leaning dnb would post their arguments because I do believe respectable opinions about flutter exist, but a lot of the support for flutters place in the tier are really signs of ignorance about national dex doubles as a whole.

Flutter compared to its competition in the fast attacker/spread move spammer Is far more effective than any other option in the tier barring Deoxys-Attack who is also on the chopping block(which mind you is only on non sun compositions. In sun it is by far and away the best offensive mon in the tier). It is in the top 3 fastest mons in the tier while simultaneously being one of the strongest in the tier with access to some of the best offensive stabs the game has to offer. Players that are not as strong do not comprehend how much smaller the amount of available counterplay is for flutter mane than almost every other attacker, and are somewhat oblivious to just how much it can dumb down the game especially on sun compositions.

While I do think that perhaps an argument could be made that at higher levels of play enough solutions in the builder exist and aren't even necessarily that limited if pointed to recent innovations, I maintain that even at the top level Flutter enables far too simple gameplans relative to how effective the mon is, and a ban would show a massive improvement to the tiers skill expression both in the builder and in the game. Ban Flutter Mane.

 

[IsaiahMeep]

Alright i did some chill ladder games for like an hour till i reached the requirment and im pretty happy as this is my first suspect test I didnt have any strong opinions about flutter manes place in the tier as i wanted to vote for the love of the game BUT i will do my best. I think flutter mane is obviously very strong and a high A or S tier mon in literally any non restricted doubles format, however this format is especially equipped for this mon with so much physical priority running amuck. Additionally I think that if you take out something like flutter other powerful mons like deoxys or iron hands may become problematic. Flutter is one of the strongest mons in the tier but I think its place is relativley healthy with a speed tier and damage thats extremely strong sure and you have to be prepared for it, but that wont be any different for the next mons that ends up being the next no. 1 option, overall there are tools to stop it consistently that are frequent enough that it doesnt seem to restricting . So i will probably be voting for DO NOT BAN ( sry dont know how to do bold font lol)

 

[MyPokemonRBad12]

This is my first time on a suspect req and im a new player to natdex, so i wouldn't give my opinion as much weight as some of the veterans here. Still, I think there are some points around flutter mane that I definitely see as unbelievably strong. The first is that flutter has a downright unfair typing combined with its role as a fast offensive mon. Being able to output STAB fairy from a 135 special attack stat (excluding multipliers like specs or tera) while also being completely immune to fake out makes it borderline impossible to avoid taking damage from flutter. Second, its speed stat makes a lot of mons overshadowed, where its kind of like a Gen-8 VGC Regieleki kind of situation. Speaking of which, Flutter has lots of role compression via its sets. Thats been explained before, so I'm not gonna repeat that.

All the statements I just gave make Flutter completely ban-worthy in a vacuum because it essentially controls the whole meta. However, this isn't looking at Flutter's very real drawbacks. The only base argument that even makes this a debate is Flutter's terrible 55 def and hp. The first way this can be exploited is via priority. Look at cp's sucker, rilla's glide, scizor(m)/lucario(m)'s bullet punch, marshadow's sneak, etc. All of these will always either one-hit or two-hit flutter, no matter which set the flutter is. In return, there are also so many mons that can take choice specs moonblasts from flutter and OHKO in return, even with minimal respect in the teambuilder. Here is a calc I ran where a pretty flexible Incin set easily beats Flutter despite Flutter having 100 extra EVs:

So many T2 mons can beat flutter mane, with incin only being one of them. AV Hands with heavy slam, almost all Rilla sets, specially bulky amoonguss who can spore flutter after getting attacked, and the list gets much wider if we consider T3. Furthermore, basically any steel type that can hold an AV can take more than 2 Sbs and revenge KO Flutter. Does Flutter require respect in the builder? Definitely. But Flutter has its share of weaknesses. While its high damage output does make it seem unreal in matchups, I just don't see a 55 HP and DEF mon being unplayable. My vote will be Do Not Ban unless you guys can convince me that my post is trash (it prolly is).

 

[srvoltmike]

I think a lot of the anti flutter arguments are contingent on flutter losing damage trades against its checks but that argument fails to account for the fact that flutter mane does, in fact (I checked to make sure), have 5 teammates that enables it and it enables. It simply moves too fast and does too much damage and does it without setting up. The things that threaten it with priority and can tank a hit from it usually can’t from the pokemon next to flutter mane. Flutter’s best friend is Yard and the offensive synergy the two provide is unreal, with heatran as the only real check I’ve found (and heatran needs to beware scorching sands). My interaction with this tier has been limited to watching tournament play and laddering for two suspect tests now, and flutter with proper support (slapping a yard or follow me or tailwind in this tier is quite easy) seems so dominant it’s absurd.

Please BAN FLUTTER for a better tomorrow

 

[LucaIaria63]

Flutter mane is a really strong mon that's able to get many 2HKO with Dazzing gleam and moonblast, and the speed control that offers it's really powerfull but it's really weak to priority moves and any av pokemon can tank and OHKO the partner or flutter mane

I vote to Do Not Ban

 

[MyPokemonRBad12]

I think a lot of the anti flutter arguments are contingent on flutter losing damage trades against its checks but that argument fails to account for the fact that flutter mane does, in fact (I checked to make sure), have 5 teammates that enables it and it enables. It simply moves too fast and does too much damage and does it without setting up. The things that threaten it with priority and can tank a hit from it usually can’t from the pokemon next to flutter mane. Flutter’s best friend is Yard and the offensive synergy the two provide is unreal, with heatran as the only real check I’ve found (and heatran needs to beware scorching sands). My interaction with this tier has been limited to watching tournament play and laddering for two suspect tests now, and flutter with proper support (slapping a yard or follow me or tailwind in this tier is quite easy) seems so dominant it’s absurd.

Please BAN FLUTTER for a better tomorrow

Tell me if im wrong, but the whole point of teammates is to remove checks. Ur mentioning yard, but yard can easily be stopped by the teammates that the opposition has. Yes you can't tank both a heat wave and gleam with most mons, but you aren't accounting for the teammates that the checks themselves have. Rilla + Torn, Hands + Koko, even Pao + Marshadow can stand up to mane itself. The whole point of the game is offensive and defensive synergies, and mane doesn't have any that are absolutely unstoppable.

Tell me if im wrong, but the whole point of teammates is to remove checks. Ur mentioning yard, but yard can easily be stopped by the teammates that the opposition has. Yes you can't tank both a heat wave and gleam with most mons, but you aren't accounting for the teammates that the checks themselves have. Rilla + Torn, Hands + Koko, even Pao + Marshadow can stand up to mane itself. The whole point of the game is offensive and defensive synergies, and mane doesn't have any that are absolutely unstoppable.

i said mane itself, i meant mane with common partners mb

 

[gephicka]

i said mane itself, i meant mane with common partners mb

please edit your original post rather than double posting

 

[Test Bots]

I have provided several stats of Flutter Mane down below.
Edit: The data was obtained through 538 tournament-based replays of this year.

The way I see it, the following question should be asked. Does Flutter Mane create such an imbalance in the current metagame to warrant a ban? The usage stat shows that Flutter Mane has the greatest gap of usage between itself and the next mon; the gap is over 5 percent. In almost two-thirds of its games, Flutter Mane is using one of its Fairy moves. Data concerning its other moves is almost 14 percent for Shadow Ball, 10 percent for Protect, and 9 percent for Icy Wind. The Sun archetype, which Flutter Mane is almost always a part of, completely dominates the common cores.

What this data shows me is that Flutter Mane is indeed creating an imbalance in the current metagame. Banning Flutter Mane will hurt Sun to some degree, but doing so may help diversify and strengthen other archetypes including other weather and trick room variants. Obviously, team building will feel more liberating with more options to explore. Personally, I will vote ban to see a better metagame progression.

Stats

Usage

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flutter Mane       |  390 |  36.25% |  50.77% |
| 2    | Rillaboom          |  343 |  31.88% |  52.77% |
| 3    | Salamence          |  314 |  29.18% |  48.41% |
| 4    | Tornadus           |  273 |  25.37% |  53.48% |
| 5    | Iron Hands         |  255 |  23.70% |  45.10% |
| 6    | Tapu Fini          |  216 |  20.07% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Charizard          |  215 |  19.98% |  55.35% |
| 8    | Incineroar         |  207 |  19.24% |  48.79% |
| 9    | Raging Bolt        |  186 |  17.29% |  53.76% |
| 10   | Diancie            |  181 |  16.82% |  51.93% |
| 11   | Chien-Pao          |  170 |  15.80% |  52.35% |
| 12   | Jirachi            |  168 |  15.61% |  49.40% |
| 13   | Landorus           |  162 |  15.06% |  52.47% |
| 14   | Landorus-Therian   |  159 |  14.78% |  52.83% |
| 15   | Heatran            |  153 |  14.22% |  55.56% |
| 16   | Ogerpon-Hearthflame |  117 |  10.87% |  50.43% |
| 17   | Marshadow          |  108 |  10.04% |  54.63% |
| 18   | Dracovish          |  107 |   9.94% |  44.86% |
| 19   | Kangaskhan         |  106 |   9.85% |  57.55% |
| 20   | Amoonguss          |   99 |   9.20% |  48.48% |
| 21   | Tapu Koko          |   95 |   8.83% |  43.16% |
| 22   | Kingambit          |   85 |   7.90% |  55.29% |
| 23   | Indeedee-F         |   80 |   7.43% |  45.00% |
| 24   | Kyurem-Black       |   78 |   7.25% |  56.41% |
| 24   | Tyranitar          |   78 |   7.25% |  46.15% |
| 26   | Gardevoir          |   76 |   7.06% |  42.11% |
| 27   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |   73 |   6.78% |  54.79% |
| 28   | Chi-Yu             |   69 |   6.41% |  49.28% |
| 29   | Sinistcha          |   66 |   6.13% |  45.45% |
| 30   | Scizor             |   64 |   5.95% |  48.44% |
| 31   | Deoxys-Attack      |   63 |   5.86% |  57.14% |
| 31   | Volcanion          |   63 |   5.86% |  52.38% |
| 33   | Politoed           |   58 |   5.39% |  44.83% |
| 34   | Archaludon         |   56 |   5.20% |  44.64% |
| 35   | Basculegion        |   55 |   5.11% |  50.91% |
| 36   | Zeraora            |   52 |   4.83% |  51.92% |
| 36   | Celesteela         |   52 |   4.83% |  48.08% |
| 38   | Gouging Fire       |   48 |   4.46% |  60.42% |
| 39   | Tapu Lele          |   47 |   4.37% |  51.06% |
| 40   | Glimmora           |   44 |   4.09% |  59.09% |
| 41   | Gothitelle         |   43 |   4.00% |  51.16% |
| 41   | Ninetales-Alola    |   43 |   4.00% |  51.16% |
| 43   | Walking Wake       |   37 |   3.44% |  56.76% |
| 43   | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon |   37 |   3.44% |  48.65% |
| 43   | Farigiraf          |   37 |   3.44% |  45.95% |
| 46   | Ting-Lu            |   36 |   3.35% |  44.44% |
| 47   | Kartana            |   35 |   3.25% |  48.57% |
| 48   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone |   32 |   2.97% |  46.88% |
| 49   | Mawile             |   30 |   2.79% |  56.67% |
| 50   | Pelipper           |   29 |   2.70% |  41.38% |
| 50   | Entei              |   29 |   2.70% |  34.48% |
| 52   | Volcarona          |   28 |   2.60% |  39.29% |
| 53   | Camerupt           |   27 |   2.51% |  48.15% |
| 53   | Blastoise          |   27 |   2.51% |  44.44% |
| 55   | Blaziken           |   24 |   2.23% |  66.67% |
| 56   | Sinistcha-Masterpiece |   23 |   2.14% |  43.48% |
| 56   | Dragonite          |   23 |   2.14% |  43.48% |
| 56   | Ursaluna           |   23 |   2.14% |  34.78% |
| 59   | Deoxys-Speed       |   21 |   1.95% |  33.33% |
| 60   | Mew                |   20 |   1.86% |  65.00% |
| 60   | Kommo-o            |   20 |   1.86% |  45.00% |
| 60   | Porygon2           |   20 |   1.86% |  45.00% |
| 60   | Xurkitree          |   20 |   1.86% |  45.00% |
| 60   | Gholdengo          |   20 |   1.86% |  40.00% |
| 65   | Iron Crown         |   19 |   1.77% |  52.63% |
| 65   | Nihilego           |   19 |   1.77% |  47.37% |
| 65   | Tsareena           |   19 |   1.77% |  42.11% |
| 68   | Grimmsnarl         |   18 |   1.67% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Roaring Moon       |   16 |   1.49% |  43.75% |
| 69   | Ferrothorn         |   16 |   1.49% |  31.25% |
| 71   | Sneasler           |   15 |   1.39% |  53.33% |
| 71   | Cresselia          |   15 |   1.39% |  33.33% |
| 73   | Hatterene          |   14 |   1.30% |  50.00% |
| 73   | Ogerpon            |   14 |   1.30% |  42.86% |
| 75   | Pheromosa          |   12 |   1.12% |  33.33% |
| 76   | Aerodactyl         |   11 |   1.02% |  18.18% |
| 77   | Manectric          |   10 |   0.93% |  30.00% |

Moves & Teammates:

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | [Flutter Mane]          |  390 |  36.25% |  50.77% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Dazzling Gleam          |  144 |  36.92% |  50.69% |
| 2    | Moonblast               |  112 |  28.72% |  45.54% |
| 3    | Shadow Ball             |   56 |  14.36% |  42.86% |
| 4    | Protect                 |   38 |   9.74% |  26.32% |
| 5    | Icy Wind                |   37 |   9.49% |  59.46% |
| 6    | Power Gem               |    6 |   1.54% |  33.33% |
| 7    | Twinkle Tackle          |    4 |   1.03% |  75.00% |
| 7    | Taunt                   |    4 |   1.03% |   0.00% |
| 9    | Calm Mind               |    3 |   0.77% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Thunderbolt             |    2 |   0.51% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Perish Song             |    1 |   0.26% | 100.00% |
| 11   | Fake Tears              |    1 |   0.26% | 100.00% |
| 11   | Substitute              |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 11   | Trick Room              |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 11   | Thunder Wave            |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Teammates               | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Charizard               |  172 |  44.10% |  53.49% |
| 2    | Rillaboom               |  137 |  35.13% |  52.55% |
| 3    | Salamence               |  122 |  31.28% |  43.44% |
| 4    | Raging Bolt             |  110 |  28.21% |  53.64% |
| 5    | Tornadus                |  104 |  26.67% |  60.58% |
| 6    | Iron Hands              |   98 |  25.13% |  43.88% |
| 7    | Landorus-Therian        |   70 |  17.95% |  47.14% |
| 8    | Heatran                 |   67 |  17.18% |  53.73% |
| 8    | Ogerpon-Hearthflame     |   67 |  17.18% |  52.24% |
| 10   | Diancie                 |   65 |  16.67% |  49.23% |
| 11   | Incineroar              |   62 |  15.90% |  51.61% |
| 12   | Landorus                |   55 |  14.10% |  50.91% |
| 13   | Jirachi                 |   49 |  12.56% |  55.10% |
| 14   | Chi-Yu                  |   41 |  10.51% |  43.90% |
| 15   | Tapu Fini               |   40 |  10.26% |  57.50% |
| 16   | Kangaskhan              |   34 |   8.72% |  61.76% |
| 16   | Deoxys-Attack           |   34 |   8.72% |  58.82% |
| 18   | Amoonguss               |   32 |   8.21% |  37.50% |
| 19   | Indeedee-F              |   30 |   7.69% |  56.67% |
| 20   | Kyurem-Black            |   28 |   7.18% |  60.71% |
| 20   | Chien-Pao               |   28 |   7.18% |  57.14% |
| 22   | Volcanion               |   25 |   6.41% |  60.00% |
| 23   | Zeraora                 |   24 |   6.15% |  54.17% |
| 24   | Kingambit               |   23 |   5.90% |  65.22% |
| 25   | Tapu Lele               |   22 |   5.64% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Farigiraf               |   22 |   5.64% |  45.45% |
| 25   | Ogerpon-Wellspring      |   22 |   5.64% |  40.91% |
| 28   | Glimmora                |   20 |   5.13% |  45.00% |
| 29   | Gothitelle              |   19 |   4.87% |  47.37% |
| 29   | Walking Wake            |   19 |   4.87% |  47.37% |
| 31   | Tyranitar               |   18 |   4.62% |  44.44% |
| 32   | Gouging Fire            |   17 |   4.36% |  41.18% |
| 33   | Dracovish               |   16 |   4.10% |  43.75% |
| 34   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone     |   14 |   3.59% |  42.86% |
| 35   | Kartana                 |   12 |   3.08% |  41.67% |
| 36   | Tapu Koko               |   11 |   2.82% |  54.55% |
| 37   | Celesteela              |   10 |   2.56% |  40.00% |
| 38   | Mew                     |    9 |   2.31% |  77.78% |
| 38   | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon      |    9 |   2.31% |  22.22% |
| 40   | Dragonite               |    8 |   2.05% |  50.00% |
| 41   | Blastoise               |    7 |   1.79% |  57.14% |
| 41   | Scizor                  |    7 |   1.79% |  57.14% |
| 41   | Roaring Moon            |    7 |   1.79% |  57.14% |
| 41   | Nihilego                |    7 |   1.79% |  57.14% |
| 41   | Volcarona               |    7 |   1.79% |  14.29% |
| 46   | Blaziken                |    6 |   1.54% |  66.67% |
| 46   | Xurkitree               |    6 |   1.54% |  33.33% |
| 46   | Tsareena                |    6 |   1.54% |  33.33% |
| 49   | Ferrothorn              |    5 |   1.28% |  40.00% |
| 49   | Cinderace               |    5 |   1.28% |  40.00% |
| 49   | Mawile                  |    5 |   1.28% |  20.00% |
| 49   | Whimsicott              |    5 |   1.28% |   0.00% |
| 53   | Regieleki               |    4 |   1.03% |  75.00% |
| 53   | Iron Crown              |    4 |   1.03% |  50.00% |
| 53   | Naganadel               |    4 |   1.03% |  50.00% |
| 53   | Ogerpon                 |    4 |   1.03% |  50.00% |
| 53   | Basculegion             |    4 |   1.03% |  50.00% |
| 53   | Pheromosa               |    4 |   1.03% |  50.00% |
| 53   | Ninetales-Alola         |    4 |   1.03% |  50.00% |
| 53   | Ting-Lu                 |    4 |   1.03% |  25.00% |
| 53   | Deoxys-Speed            |    4 |   1.03% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Great Tusk              |    3 |   0.77% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Zapdos                  |    3 |   0.77% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Sinistcha               |    3 |   0.77% |  66.67% |
| 62   | Archaludon              |    3 |   0.77% |  66.67% |
| 62   | Gyarados                |    3 |   0.77% |  66.67% |
| 62   | Iron Valiant            |    3 |   0.77% |  66.67% |
| 62   | Dracozolt               |    3 |   0.77% |  33.33% |
| 69   | Aegislash               |    2 |   0.51% | 100.00% |
| 69   | Venusaur                |    2 |   0.51% | 100.00% |
| 69   | Arcanine-Hisui          |    2 |   0.51% | 100.00% |
| 69   | Marshadow               |    2 |   0.51% | 100.00% |
| 69   | Weezing-Galar           |    2 |   0.51% | 100.00% |
| 69   | Victini                 |    2 |   0.51% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Latias                  |    2 |   0.51% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Pelipper                |    2 |   0.51% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Corviknight             |    2 |   0.51% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Grimmsnarl              |    2 |   0.51% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Electabuzz              |    2 |   0.51% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Garganacl               |    2 |   0.51% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Iron Boulder            |    2 |   0.51% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Gardevoir               |    2 |   0.51% |   0.00% |
| 69   | Ursaluna                |    2 |   0.51% |   0.00% |
| 69   | Dragapult               |    2 |   0.51% |   0.00% |
| 69   | Sneasler                |    2 |   0.51% |   0.00% |
| 69   | Kommo-o                 |    2 |   0.51% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Gholdengo               |    1 |   0.26% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Clodsire                |    1 |   0.26% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Aggron                  |    1 |   0.26% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Scream Tail             |    1 |   0.26% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Serperior               |    1 |   0.26% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Lucario                 |    1 |   0.26% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Brute Bonnet            |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Camerupt                |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Hoopa-Unbound           |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Porygon-Z               |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Cresselia               |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Kingdra                 |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Gastrodon               |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Orthworm                |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Zapdos-Galar            |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Weezing                 |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Aerodactyl              |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Revavroom               |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Leafeon                 |    1 |   0.26% |   0.00% |

Common Cores (Combos of 3 & 4)

+ ---- + ----------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 3                                           | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Raging Bolt / Flutter Mane / Charizard                |   96 |   8.92% |  55.21% |
| 2    | Flutter Mane / Charizard / Rillaboom                  |   70 |   6.51% |  55.71% |
| 3    | Rillaboom / Salamence / Chien-Pao                     |   63 |   5.86% |  52.38% |
| 4    | Tornadus / Flutter Mane / Charizard                   |   57 |   5.30% |  52.63% |
| 5    | Raging Bolt / Flutter Mane / Rillaboom                |   56 |   5.20% |  53.57% |
| 6    | Raging Bolt / Charizard / Rillaboom                   |   53 |   4.93% |  54.72% |
| 7    | Tornadus / Raging Bolt / Flutter Mane                 |   50 |   4.65% |  54.00% |
| 7    | Flutter Mane / Charizard / Ogerpon-Hearthflame        |   50 |   4.65% |  52.00% |
| 7    | Salamence / Flutter Mane / Rillaboom                  |   50 |   4.65% |  42.00% |
| 10   | Tornadus / Raging Bolt / Charizard                    |   48 |   4.46% |  52.08% |
| 11   | Salamence / Marshadow / Rillaboom                     |   46 |   4.28% |  56.52% |
| 11   | Salamence / Jirachi / Tapu Fini                       |   46 |   4.28% |  52.17% |
| 13   | Chien-Pao / Marshadow / Rillaboom                     |   42 |   3.90% |  54.76% |
| 14   | Salamence / Marshadow / Chien-Pao                     |   41 |   3.81% |  58.54% |
| 15   | Tornadus / Flutter Mane / Rillaboom                   |   40 |   3.72% |  60.00% |
| 15   | Flutter Mane / Ogerpon-Hearthflame / Rillaboom        |   40 |   3.72% |  55.00% |
| 15   | Diancie / Charizard / Rillaboom                       |   40 |   3.72% |  55.00% |
| 15   | Raging Bolt / Charizard / Ogerpon-Hearthflame         |   40 |   3.72% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Diancie / Flutter Mane / Charizard                    |   40 |   3.72% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Charizard / Ogerpon-Hearthflame / Rillaboom           |   39 |   3.62% |  53.85% |
| 20   | Salamence / Tapu Fini / Incineroar                    |   39 |   3.62% |  43.59% |
| 20   | Salamence / Jirachi / Rillaboom                       |   39 |   3.62% |  38.46% |
| 23   | Raging Bolt / Flutter Mane / Ogerpon-Hearthflame      |   38 |   3.53% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Tornadus / Raging Bolt / Rillaboom                    |   38 |   3.53% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Salamence / Flutter Mane / Iron Hands                 |   36 |   3.35% |  38.89% |
+ ---- + ------------------------------------------------------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 4                                                        | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------------------------------------------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Raging Bolt / Flutter Mane / Charizard / Rillaboom                 |   52 |   4.83% |  55.77% |
| 2    | Tornadus / Raging Bolt / Flutter Mane / Charizard                  |   47 |   4.37% |  53.19% |
| 3    | Flutter Mane / Charizard / Ogerpon-Hearthflame / Rillaboom         |   39 |   3.62% |  53.85% |
| 4    | Raging Bolt / Flutter Mane / Charizard / Ogerpon-Hearthflame       |   37 |   3.44% |  48.65% |
| 5    | Rillaboom / Salamence / Marshadow / Chien-Pao                      |   36 |   3.35% |  55.56% |
| 6    | Tornadus / Raging Bolt / Flutter Mane / Rillaboom                  |   31 |   2.88% |  51.61% |
| 7    | Tornadus / Flutter Mane / Charizard / Rillaboom                    |   30 |   2.79% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Raging Bolt / Flutter Mane / Ogerpon-Hearthflame / Rillaboom       |   30 |   2.79% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Tornadus / Raging Bolt / Charizard / Rillaboom                     |   30 |   2.79% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Raging Bolt / Charizard / Ogerpon-Hearthflame / Rillaboom          |   30 |   2.79% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Raging Bolt / Landorus-Therian / Flutter Mane / Charizard          |   27 |   2.51% |  62.96% |
| 12   | Tornadus / Flutter Mane / Charizard / Ogerpon-Hearthflame          |   26 |   2.42% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Tornadus / Raging Bolt / Flutter Mane / Ogerpon-Hearthflame        |   25 |   2.32% |  52.00% |
| 13   | Tornadus / Flutter Mane / Ogerpon-Hearthflame / Rillaboom          |   25 |   2.32% |  52.00% |
| 13   | Tornadus / Raging Bolt / Charizard / Ogerpon-Hearthflame           |   25 |   2.32% |  52.00% |
| 13   | Tornadus / Raging Bolt / Ogerpon-Hearthflame / Rillaboom           |   25 |   2.32% |  52.00% |
| 13   | Tornadus / Charizard / Ogerpon-Hearthflame / Rillaboom             |   25 |   2.32% |  52.00% |
| 13   | Diancie / Flutter Mane / Charizard / Rillaboom                     |   25 |   2.32% |  52.00% |
| 19   | Rillaboom / Salamence / Jirachi / Chien-Pao                        |   23 |   2.14% |  47.83% |
| 20   | Deoxys-Attack / Indeedee-F / Flutter Mane / Charizard              |   22 |   2.04% |  63.64% |
| 20   | Rillaboom / Salamence / Entei / Chien-Pao                          |   22 |   2.04% |  36.36% |
| 22   | Deoxys-Attack / Tapu Lele / Flutter Mane / Charizard               |   20 |   1.86% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Salamence / Tapu Fini / Jirachi / Incineroar                       |   18 |   1.67% |  61.11% |
| 23   | Rillaboom / Entei / Marshadow / Chien-Pao                          |   18 |   1.67% |  44.44% |
| 23   | Marshadow / Salamence / Entei / Chien-Pao                          |   18 |   1.67% |  44.44% |
| 23   | Marshadow / Salamence / Entei / Rillaboom                          |   18 |   1.67% |  44.44% |
| 23   | Salamence / Tapu Fini / Flutter Mane / Incineroar                  |   18 |   1.67% |  44.44% |
| 23   | Salamence / Flutter Mane / Heatran / Rillaboom                     |   18 |   1.67% |  38.89% |

 

[Minoskingofcrete]

The way I see it, the following question should be asked. Does Flutter Mane create such an imbalance in the current metagame to warrant a ban? The usage stat shows that Flutter Mane has the greatest gap of usage between itself and the next mon; the gap is over 5 percent. In almost two-thirds of its games, Flutter Mane is using one of its Fairy moves. Data concerning its other moves is almost 14 percent for Shadow Ball, 10 percent for Protect, and 9 percent for Icy Wind. The Sun archetype, which Flutter Mane is almost always a part of, completely dominates the common cores.

What this data shows me is that Flutter Mane is indeed creating an imbalance in the current metagame. Banning Flutter Mane will hurt Sun to some degree, but doing so may help diversify and strengthen other archetypes including other weather and trick room variants. Obviously, team building will feel more liberating with more options to explore. Personally, I will vote ban to see a better metagame progression.

I almost exclusively counterbuild. I specifically calc for numerous interactions, thoroughly enjoy finding the "sleeper" mons on the tier, and overall just enjoy the weird and wonderful experience of teambuilding, and in that respect, I don't mind flutter. It does restrict your team to need to run 2 checks for one mon (oftentimes three is best) but so many of it's "common" checks are so bad against its common partners that it seems unbeatable because we make it that way. Ogerpon-hearthflame exists and can do massive damage to every potential partner it has except incin, AV hands makes quick work of it, as does marshadow, chien-pao, and any other physical priority user. However, therein lies the problem. In my suspect test I am going to run four different kinds of teams, to see which ones fare best against the ladder as a whole. 1. A standard flutter setup with several of its most common partners. 2. A nonstandard flutter, designed to assist in the way I believe is most optimal. 3. A team designed specifically with everything except flutter in mind. 4. A team built specifically to counter flutter

The problem with flutter to me is not it's power nor it's speed, it's the pokemon's flexibility. Choice specs has always struck me as rather underwhelming compared to the huge variety of movesets the pokemon can run. Specs places upon it the inflexibility which balances it, but I believe once players discover the broad range of situations the pokemon can cover (most notably for me focus sash or icy wind sets) it will be a problem.

However, without further testing, I am unresolved. The polarizing strength-weakness profile of this pokemon make it a hard question to answer. Currently, I lean about 55-45 away from ban. I simply wish to stress that maybe specs isn't the best way to use that mon, and how terrifying it would be once it's true potential is discovered. I also made it to top 15 with a moltrss kanga team and had no problems.

 

[ratpacker]

The usage stat shows that Flutter Mane has the greatest gap of usage between itself and the next mon; the gap is over 5 percent.

5% is nothing. For reference this is what a meta overcentralized around Flutter Mane looks like : https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...utter-mane-remains-legal.3729153/post-9820053
I scroll and I can't see a single replay highlighting the uncompetitive aspect of Flutter Mane, whereas during the suspect tests for Gothithelle, Archaludon, Stakataka, Basculegion, Zamazenta, Zygarde, Magearna, Annihilape, Urshifu they were quite easy to produce. We were able to see how those broken mons were able to overpower teams that supposedly kept them in check. I also haven't seen any significant calcs explaining how this mon is broken.

Flutter Mane hits hard but fails to KO, it has good coverage but a paper defense, takes advantage of Tailwind but it useless in Trick Room and dies to strong physical STAB moves. The main argument I see is that its dual typing makes switching into it difficult, but its main set is specs meaning it needs to lock into a move. Also you're not supposed to switch against Flutter Mane, you damage it and then it's in range of every priority move in the game. It's definitely Tier 2 or above in the viability ranking due to its synergy with Salamence and Charizard, but it has clearly defined flaws.

Here are all my replays from Derby and NDWC featuring Flutter Mane gameplay and the solutions builders have found to beat the dreaded pair of Flutter Mane + dragon looking mega. Flutter Mane ends up trading somewhat evenly with the opposing team in every game.

Ogerpon-hearthflame, Heatran, Assault Vest Tyranitar which KOs Flutter with Heavy Slam and Dracovish that can outspeed Charizard and Flutter with Sand Rush, Choice Scarf Landorus:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-827545

Tera Fire Amoonguss specifically, which is a nightmare to deal with for Sun teams. Necrozma notably can tank Shadow Ball from Flutter and set Trick Room in front of it, Ting Lu which also threatens a KO on Flutter Mane and Incineroar which will KO Flutter Mane in Sun and even outside if Atk invested.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-832073?p2

Ferrothorn and Nihilego :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-837628?p2

Psychic Seed Diancie :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-839448?p2

Celesteela, Aerodactyl, Iron Hands + Trick Room, Tera Poison Kingambit :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-840508?p2
Now regarding that specific core of Farigiraf Iron Hands, it will trade somewhat evenly into a Flutter Mane Mega-Salamence for this reason :
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 428-508 (84 - 99.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now this is purely for the sake of argument as Flutter doesn't run 252 SpAtk (and shouldn't) and Iron Hands doesn't run max HP, the most common Flutter Set is 160 Defense which leaves only 92 SpAtk, which can easily be lived by Hands. This means that even Tera Fairy Moonblast will miss out on the KO against Iron Hands, which already threatened the Tera Fire regardless. And once Trick Room is up Flutter Mane is forced to switch out because it will drop to -1 Heavy Slam.

Scizor and Marshadow, which notably KO zero-bulk Flutter Mane, even at -1 atk :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-843178?p2

Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Iron Crown, Ogerpon-Wellspring with Tera and Rillaboom with Tera, which all threaten a KO on Flutter Mane :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-848474?p2

Ultimately a ban would only hurt sun teams, as every Salamence core would replace Flutter Mane by Choice Specs Tapu Fini without it affecting its gameplay in any significant way. If you want to ban something ban Deoxys-Attack, I'm tired of having to fit a tera psychic/dark mon on every team.

I also do not think laddering in NDDOU gives users a significant understanding of the metagame and I would argue against it, other users already brought forth the argument during the Gothitelle suspect test.
Finally don't listen to eragon and kunal's arguments about banning Flutter Mane, they have a secret agenda and just wanna run Koko Hands again.

Flutter Mane is strong but not broken so I will vote Do Not Ban.

 

[gephicka]

I wanted to take my time in writing a follow up post, as outside of a few notable exceptions the quality of discourse in this thread is quite low and i have yet to see a compelling argument from the Ban side (ratpacker is saving the DNB posters right now)

i think Flutter Mane makes the tier significantly more offensive by warping the viability of defensive pokemon around itself. Above all, Flutter Mane is much more of a teambuilding threat than it is on paper— how do you build a structure that is able to prevent Flutter Mane from either getting too much value early game so its partners can clean or how do you prevent the Flutter Mane structure from breaking down your checks to it over the course of the game. The issue for me is, Flutter Mane structures (especially sun) are exceptional at doing this. AV Iron Hands and Rillaboom, two of the most prevalent Flutter Mane checks in the game, get worn down very easily by Flutter’s partners, with Rillaboom being taken advantage of by Charizard and Iron Hands being naturally weak to flutter mane and thus required to tera in front of it if it gets chipped. Especially into something like Psyspam Sun, having either your Hands or Rillaboom chipped or KO’d leaves you immensely vulnerable into the rest of their team. Flutter Mane is too good at breaking— even if it is not immediately OHKOing some of the bulkier threats in the tier, it is heavily damaging them for its teammates to clean in its wake.

I don’t think that Flutter Mane is by any means unbeatable in both the teambuilder and in matches, however the issue for me is that Flutter Mane packs too much value into one slot. Flutter Mane simultaneously offers speed control, a wallbreaker, a late game cleaner, and a fake out immunity all in one slot. It is able to outspeed the entire relevant unboosted metagame outside of Chien-Pao which it ties and Deo-A. Priority can serve to check it, however the only priority mons that are able to offensively check it consistently are Marshadow & Mega Scizor which are exploitable by tera Fairy and common Flutter Mane partners Jirachii, Incineroar, and Charizard-Y respectively. Mega-Scizor especially is a very flawed answer to Flutter Mane given how easily exploitable its offensive and defensive typing is, and it taking up a mega slot— something that gives it a huge opportunity cost to run. Sure, there are a lot of good mons in the tier that are able to check & even counter Flutter Mane, but this does not detract from how centralizing and unhealthy Flutter Mane is for the metagame.

This is ultimately my argument: Flutter Mane creates an unhealthy metagame completely warped around it. I would not by any means argue that Flutter Mane sun is unbeatable (VishTar + Rillaboom & Heatran exists as a viable structure in this tier after all), however I would argue thet it’s the best archtype in the entire format, and that, by and large, Flutter Mane gets more value per game than a significant portion if the metagame.

I would like to go over a few of the replays ratpacker used as examples to display this concept, as i believe these are great examples of Flutter Mane getting excellent value even into bad matchups.

Ogerpon-hearthflame, Heatran, Assault Vest Tyranitar which KOs Flutter with Heavy Slam and Dracovish that can outspeed Charizard and Flutter with Sand Rush, Choice Scarf Landorus:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-827545

your Flutter Mane forced their MGarde to swap and OHKO’d their Flutter and forced Spurrific’s Landorus to eat a crit Ivy Cudgel. you were then able to use the early advantage Flutter Mane gave you to convert the midgame & stall their trick room. you then used Flutter mane to help pick up the KO on their Iron Hands and secure you the game.

Tera Fire Amoonguss specifically, which is a nightmare to deal with for Sun teams. Necrozma notably can tank Shadow Ball from Flutter and set Trick Room in front of it, Ting Lu which also threatens a KO on Flutter Mane and Incineroar which will KO Flutter Mane in Sun and even outside if Atk invested.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-832073?p2

Akaru literally had no spore switchins other than Rillaboom (and was even Bulwark Gouger which gave him even less room to play around amoon), regardless of Flutter Mane your Amoonguss was going to be putting up LeBron numbers into that structure. I do not think this replay is representative of Flutter Mane’s role in the tier.

Ferrothorn and Nihilego :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-837628?p2

If you’ll notice, your Flutter Mane literally forced the Iron Hands Tera turn one, the thing that allowed Nihilego to later KO it and break sash on Deoxys. Despite it not breaking the hands, it forcing the t1 tera won you the game.

Celesteela, Aerodactyl, Iron Hands + Trick Room, Tera Poison Kingambit :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-840508?p2

despite having both Cele and Aero, Flutter Mane was able to easily clean up the game after the Cele was chipped— effortlessly breaking the Fini and tFairy Farig that your Gambit struggled to hit— it would have likely finished off the Koko as well if Xq hadn’t forfeited.

Scizor and Marshadow, which notably KO zero-bulk Flutter Mane, even at -1 atk :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-843178?p2

the Scizor that missed the OHKO on Torn and died t2? Marshadow put in an excellent performance in this game regardless, but I would say the primary reason Zee lost this was not Flutter Mane— nor MSciz/Marsh’s ability to check it, but the overwhelming disadvantage he had from losing his mega on turn 2 for very little benefit (yet again displaying the weaknesses of MSciz and why I would not consider it real counterplay to Flutter Mane due to its low viability)

Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Iron Crown, Ogerpon-Wellspring with Tera and Rillaboom with Tera, which all threaten a KO on Flutter Mane :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-848474?p2

Even against all of these mons that heavily threaten it, Flutter Mane was able to output immense offensive pressure into Era’s team, finishing off Iron Hands, chipping his Ogerpon into range of Tbolt + Icy Wind, dropping the Iron Crown’s speed so Yard could get the Tailwind off.

As you say, all of these teams have extensive counterplay into Flutter Mane, while you did not post any of Flutter Mane sweeping whole teams, you did not need to. The replays you showed function as great examples of Flutter Mane being able to break for its partners in order to secure the win.

I take issue with your last two points as well. Choice Specs Fini is significantly weaker than Specs Flutter Mane— sure, you can try to slot it in over Flutter Mane on those structures, but it would not do remotely the same thing. Specs Fini is much slower & weaker— the whole point of Specs Flutter Mane is its difficult to contest speed tier in conjunction with its raw strength, something Fini definitely lacks.

While Sun structures may take a hit in the wake of a Flutter Mane ban, in that instance sun also lost a mon that’s extremely annoying for it— with Flutter Mane being able to play into speed tie wars with itself as well as threaten sun staples like Raging Bolt and even Yard/Hearthflame with its coverage like Power Gem. No Flutter Mane just means it becomes easier to run Raging Bolt.

Overall, I think Flutter Mane centralizes the format around itself through its speed tier and raw power leading the rest of the format to have to take extensive care both in game and in the builder in order to properly handle. And while I agree with ratpacker about Deoxys-Attack, I believe Flutter Mane is a much bigger culprit of the phenomenon you mentioned than Deo.

I intend to vote Ban on Flutter Mane, I encourage you to engage with both me and ratpackers points while also checking out replays from NDWC and Doubles Derby to form your own opinions.

Suspect Formatting

one last thing i’d like to address is suspect formatting. I believe that only players with tournament results should be able to vote in these suspects. If you have only experienced SV NDDOU through the ladder then you have not truly experienced the tier at a high level. High-level NDDOU players simply do not play the ladder outside of suspect tests (and a select few for NDLT). You will not get a representative experience of the metagame in a ladder context. I was able to get reqs in 3 hours spamming brainless HO and my last game was literally against 3x shitmon starters. I played against multiple monotype teams and thrown together teams that would get 6-0’d by any competent player with a decent team. Ask any player who participated and they would likely have a very similar experience. I can guarantee no one who has exclusively played ladder in this format has an extensive understanding of this format and urge tournament-based reqs to be considered as the sole standard for suspect req qualification.