Announcement Free Bird - Torchic Suspect Test

[Hacker]

"'Cause I'm as free as a bird now, and this bird you cannot change"
​

The LC Council has decided to suspect test Torchic.

On our most recent survey Torchic had an exceptional amount of people who wanted to see tiering action on it. Torchic has mainly been the cause for a lot of controversy lately because of how strong of a natural offensive type fire is in LC, with our options of fire resists being very limited. However, not even running some of the tiers best fire resists like Shellos means that you are out of danger. Due to the addition of Tera Blast in SV, Torchic is able to pick and choose its answers exceptionally well. Tera Blast Ground hits common fire resists like Chinchou and Glimmet while serving as a general good offensive type to click buttons with. Tera Blast Psychic hits Mienfoo and Mareanie, while Tera Blast Fairy hits Mienfoo, Vullaby, and any potential Tera Dragon users. Alongside the plentiful options Torchic has with Tera Blast, it isn’t hard to get on the field. With Foongus being on a very huge majority of teams, Mienfoo can commonly get in with U-Turn. The point being that SV has given Torchic the perfect toolkit for it to have the potential to blow past any of the mons that naturally would be giving it a hard time while not being hard to get in.

This being said, Torchic is not a flawless Pokémon and counterplay to it does exist. While fire resists options in this tier are limited, they do still exist. Chinchou and Glimmet can force Torchic to utilize Tera in order to damage them, while Shellos can tank two Tera Blasts with Tera after rocks. However, this does leave you vulnerable to Tera Grass Torchic. The aforementioned Tera Grass Torchic is vulnerable to being able to break past Tera Dragon, however that can require you to use your own Tera and Torchic could neutralize your counter play with Will-O-Wisp. Alternatively, you could bring a team that gives Torchic a hard time coming in. However, Torchic synergizes well with many common Pokémon in the tier like Mienfoo. Even the teams most prepared for Torchic can have a hard time dealing with it because as the game progresses and more stuff loses it’s resources, Torchic becomes even more dangerous. Torchic cannot beat everything, but the question is if the resources needed to reliable beat Torchic are reasonable.

...

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in LC before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played LC before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, ghost, tazz, or a staff member.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me/tazz/ghost or post here!

NEW​

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800

The period to get the suspect requirements will be Saturday,<t:1755363360:f> with voting for the suspect going up after. Have fun laddering!

 

[Incognition]

There seems to be an agenda against fire types here...

 

[Incognition]

In all seriousness:



I've played SV LC recently again for SV Pools and the key issue I've noticed about Torchic is Tera Blast in particular, and the sheer fact that people aren't able to predict the type it'll be (Psychic, Ground, or even Grass).

I do agree that Fire Blast hits a lot of the meta hard, but it does this at the cost of recoil damage and potential switch in to rocks, so I feel it's fully utilised as a late game cleaner. Overall, I agree with the test and it wouldn't surprise me if it gets banned, although I personally feel Tera Blast is the key issue (I understand Smogon doesn't do Complex Bans).


On a separate note, I wonder if the community also finds Shellder being a potential issue, with it being used a lot more frequently and the main checks being Tera Steel Foongus, Mareenie, and Tera Water Mudbray(?) as although it needs the opportunity to set up, it has enough bulk to do this and once boosted can demolish a lot of the meta itself.

 

[Fille]

Scottie the Growlithe call-out kinda didn't mature too well, but I can do some stuff with that if needed.

 

[Colin]

Im going to run choice scarf agility Growlithe for the mindgames.

Being more serious now, Torchic is broken because speed boost + protect + substitute denies most speed control options and most of the rest depend on Torchic having the correct Tera into it. Torchic is also a top tier breaker with no safe switch ins factoring in Tera, and limited trading options factoring in wisp and potential setup in the back. With all of this, the most effective ways to beat it are to deny entry, or aggressively Tera against it. The former limits team construction, as metagame staples such as Foongus and Tinkatink are immediately threatened with ohkoes and are therefore unable to switch into the pivots they are fit on teams to beat. against the many faster Pokemon, torchic has trouble entering due to needing to protect to outspeed, but therefore being vulnerable to a substitute 50 50. Defensive Tera is consistent, but can be easily scouted by substitite protect, and in general those Teras are not offensively threatening and weaken their team vs Torchics teammates.

Torchics real weakness is that it is difficult to build with due to its poor immediate speed tier and lack of defensive utility. Eventually, players optimized it's offenses, and so even with common flaws such as nothing to outspeed Mienfoo or a weak defensive backbone, it can just win first because everything is weak to Torchic and Torchic can find entry on most of them without too much difficulty.

 

[Kingler]

I think Torchic is broken. Colin's post is great, but I just want to say that defensively tera'ing in advance is not really a viable strategy against Torchic team. Not just revealing your tera, but tera'ing preemptively is a huge concession to make and if you've tera'd while the Torchic team hasn't, you are basically asking to get swept by a surprise tera or take a really bad trade (for example, in the mienfoo/vullaby matchup). Most of the time you'll have your "check" in and it's a game of seeing whether you tera on the right turn to take the Torchic hit; Torchic can sub or protect on the same turn to put those odds in its favor. I think that a lot of Torchic games come down to weird 50/50s, the vast majority of which are actually weighted 50/50s in its favor. This is not to mention that it can use moves like wisp to make life harder for mons trying to gain momentum vs it by u-turning. The amount of bending over backwards/weird techs to try to catch torchic, having two mons that live at full or after hazards but still feeling like it's sketchy vs it, and praying that we're facing a favorable tera for our chic matchup we had to do building in LCPL did not feel great. If I get reqs, I'll certainly be voting ban.

 

[Shiif]

I agree with Kingler's post and i also think Torchic is way too broken in this metagame for two simple reasons. The first one is that Torchic is at the same time a late game sweeper, and a wallbreaker. The lack in fire resistances in the tier make the mon way too frightening to play against, and you can use it early game to break into the opponent's team (most of the time forcing the use of tera, and you can even not tera yourself so you gain a big advantage), or keep Torchic through the game until late game for an easy sweep. As Kingler said, most of the time you will be forced to anticipate a certain teracristal, because you can't just keep all your options to answer the grass, ground, fairy or psychic terablast. So all the games will end in a strange situation of 50/50 or just gambling on a tera to lose on an other.
The second reason is that, Torchic relies too much on missing moves (fire blast, wow), resulting in frustrating games. These moves are mandatory, and will just be frustrating for everyone. It just keeps randomizing the games (miss, random tera, random counter etc.)
Torchic is not the strongest pokemon in all the games and that's not the point of this suspect, but each game I see one (in my team or in my opponent's team), it's just a frustrating moment to go through, which is not healthy at all for the tier. If I get reqs, i'll be voting ban too.
Sorry for my english i'm not fluent thanks :)

 

[Éric]

I think Torchic needs to go. With this post i want to elaborate on why, given a perspective of teambuilding and playing.

This tier lacks good fire resists. We've known this, we've banned plenty fire types in the past (Growlithe and Magby) and have had others be top tier as well (Numel and Torchic). In our current Viability Ranking, we can see 7 fire resists, none of which sadly actually do beat the fire types: Glimmet and Chinchou are tasked with checking other threats like Vullaby, while lacking recovery; Shellder, Wingull and Axew are offensive Pokémon without recovery that do not intend on switching into hits, and are still frail and prone to Will-O-Wisp and/or Terablast; lastly, Mareanie and Shellos are more passive Pokémon, tasked with other threats to check and forced to click Recover, while still being one Terablast away from dying. This lack of native counterplay to Torchic (which always runs a Fire type move and a Terablast of choice) forces all teams to rely on Tera types to check it. This leaves the tier with a few problems: first, all Tera types are weak to a certain Torchic set (mainly Terablast type). If you run, for example, Dragon Mienfoo + Water Foongus, in addition of being way weaker into Shellder, your team will lose to Will-O-Wisp + Terablast Grass Torchic, or even Terablast Fairy Torchic, depending on who you decide to terastalyze (more on this later). The other main problem this "Tera type monopoly" that Torchic has creates is the constriction of teambuilding and the making of other threats stronger. Given that you need multiple Tera types to beat Torchic, other Pokémon like Shellder and Spore Foongus become more problematic, because if you want to adapt to them, you will be giving up a lot of "security" vs Torchic. This also means that, in a less immediate way, the pool of Pokémon we use isnt as big as it could be, because with less defensive resources per team you can't make big concessions, and most people end up choosing proven cores like Foongus + Mudbray or Mareanie + Toedscool, making the Pokémon that beat them harder to adapt to (like, mainly, Spore and Shellder). All of this is to say Torchic forces a ton of teambuilding habits that do nothing but harm the tier.

Now on the playing aspect. In my opinion, Torchic is the single most carrying Pokémon you can have. By this I mean that it is the Pokémon most easy to win with, demanding the least skill to use and win with, while also rewarding it. Its floor is incredibly low, offering you ways to either win the game on the spot or hinder the opposing team enough where your other Pokémon will win, while its ceiling is stupidly high, meaning the more times you get it in, the higher chance you have at winning. As the Torchic player, you have perfect control on what you can do with it, when to get it in and when to switch it out. Every time you click U-Turn on your Mienfoo, your opponent will have to respect the Torchic and not go Foongus, unless they want to sacrifice a Pokémon really early in the game, limiting their plays too much. If Torchic can't win on its own, it will burn the opposing Vullaby or Mienfoo so that Shellder wins the game, or maybe even burn the Shellos so that Diglett can click Earthquake without fear of getting walled. Here is an LCPL semifinals game where both Torchics control the pace of the game, with mine burning the Mienfoo so much that my Shellder immediately becomes a much bigger threat, while my opponent's Torchic tried to hit an Overheat onto my Mienfoo which, had it hit, would've put me in a terrible spot into thier own Shellder.
Other times, Torchic is the one winning, and it has it really easy to do so. I haven't mentioned move variety on Torchic, but it is one of the key aspects to its game. Torchic will always be carrying Protect, Fire Blast and Terablast, which is already a ton of variety given its ample Tera type options, but it also has mainly 3 different options for its last move: Will-O-Wisp, Substitute and Overheat completely change the way you play as Torchic and against it, and it is incredibly more deadly the less things it has revealed (Tera type and fourth move). Will-O-Wisp, as stated, will help you set up with your partner Pokémon, and Overheat will get sneaky KOes so you can sweep more easily, but Substitue is perhaps the most deadly of them all. In this LTWC playoffs replay, that is perfectly illustrated, as Wail is able to kill basically the entire opposing team after setting up a Substitue on a sacrifice, making it unable for his opponent to hit it (thanks to speed boost) because Wail just happened to have the right Tera type to win on the spot. As the opponent, you have to make a lot of hard, game ending decisions vs Torchic constantly, while the Torchic user has little to no downside to its moves, provided they hit. If you guess wrong, and let it set up a Substitute or burn your win condition, you probably will lose. In this LCPL semifinals replay, we can see an instance where I would be able to win on the spot if I had Substitute, given my opponent tried to sacrifice his Mudbray into a Torchic on turn 10, and we can also see proof of how teams aren't really able to fit fire type checks, relegating to defensive Tera types, hoping you cover for the right set and winning before the opposing Torchic does. Torchic has it so easy, and its opponents have it so far.

All in all, I think Torchic is a very toxic presence on the metagame, which only creates teambuilding restrictions and wins its games way too easily, and its departure will bring balanced fire types like Numel and Salandit into the tier, and more diversity overall, so I will be voting BAN.

 

[Berks]

I would like to just point out that if we ban Torchic we will have banned all 3 of the tier's Speed Boost users, and that probably only 1 of them is broken without it (Yanma is crazy)... seems like a pretty exceptional element to me!!

 

[inscribe]

Hi guys, I know I'm an unknown face around here but I've been around LC since the XY days and LC has always been my tier of choice. I've been getting back into the tier for the last few weeks and finally feel like I have a decent grasp on the meta. That being said, I'm planning on using my vote to not ban Torchic and I'd like to go in to why I feel that way. These points are in my opinion pretty relevant or at least very much worth discussing so please bear with me.

I feel like the main gripe with Torchic in people's eyes is that it has no switch-ins, so I'll get this part of my post out of the way first. I've found a lot of success with Munchlax. I think it's a crime that a pokemon like Munchlax has only been used once in SV LC throughout the entirety of this ongoing LCPL (100% winrate btw shoutout Eniigma) when it:

(I'm gonna yap about Munchlax for a sec)

1. HARD walls every rendition we've seen thus far of Torchic

, switches in easily, not much in the tier really wants to be tanking a Body Slam especially once Eviolites have been knocked off. Obviously perhaps a Tera Fighting Torchic could be an answer, but that doesn't even exist yet, and its effectiveness is entirely unknown.


2. Has a very, very favorable match-up into most of the other strong special attackers we find in the tier, including Wingull

, Chinchou

, Nasty Plot Vullaby

*, Gothita

*, Toedscool

, Glimmet

* , and can switch into Elekid but you don't want to get knocked or Focus Blasted so beware thus Lax only softchecks imo.
I don't bring up any other Pokemon because those are the relevant special attackers as I see it.

* Vullaby can be a threat if the Vullaby user correctly conserves their HP and manages to prevent themselves from getting paralyzed. Also Lax ofc loses to Tera Ghost Vull. Vullaby is very, VERY, strong-- which I'll talk about later.
* Goth could feasibly trap and set up on a Munchlax with a Tera Ghost Sub CM set but, like the theoretical Tera Fight Torchic, it doesn't exist (yet?).
* Glimmet gets set up on if you have Eviolite, some people think Munchlax is a free chance to get up rocks. It's really not

The key point I'm trying to make here, is that we're trying to ban a Pokemon that has a completely viable hard counter in the meta. Maybe the sentiments of wanting to ban Torchic are fair and warranted and it should eventually be banned, but the community as a whole has not even begun to try to use Munchlax and see how the meta could develop around that. We'll get back to this. More on our boy Munchlax:
​

3. Is a reliable answer to one of the tier's strongest, most oppressive in-team-builder, and most popular Pokemon-- Foongus

. RestTalk Munchlax doesn't mind taking a Spore, doesn't mind switching in on a Sludge Bomb (and if the Foongus poisons you he's even worse off because now he can't sleep you and you can Rest on your own accord, how many games get ruined because of your would-be Foongus switch-in getting poisoned?)
You're very happy if the only thing your Munchlax does is switch in on a Spore and conserve its HP for a Torchic. And that's the bare minimum interaction. Not only that, but it hard walls every other Fat Mon people slap on their team (Shellos

, Mareanie

). In fact, it sets up on all of these Pokemon.

We all know that the strength of Foongus in this gen with the lack of Ferroseed, Abra, Gastly, and Knock Off Pawniard is very relevant-- Foongus dynamics find their way into basically every LC game he's in. Foongus has sprung about the usage of less than optimal mons such as Chespin (Gastly doesn't even exist, his sole purpose is to wall Foongus lmfao), Safety Goggles Alolan Sandshrew, Overcoat Vull (mixed or NP or just physical is simply better). God forbid you're one of the many teams or you're at the point of the game where you simply don't really have a good answer for Spore. Because then would ensue the countless mindless Foongus wars we witness all throughout competitive Little Cup (I feel like Torchic helps to deter this).

Back to Munchlax:

4. Obviously, after a few curses and a few well-timed Body Slams, a Munchlax can sweep an opposing team (very easily). There are a lot of things it can set up on, too. You get a free curse off? A lot of business decisions are going to have to be made for your opponent.
If the enemy's Mienfoo

is dead, weak, knocked off, paralyzed, etc, not much teams are built to deal with a RestTalk Munchlax. You essentially wall the entire tier. Burning your tera on a Tera Ghost to wall CurseLax isn't ideal in my opinion, either. Tera Poison serves as a way to catch Mienfoos off guard, and if your opponent doesn't have a Ground-type or Psychic Elekid, Goth, Tera Ground Torchic, he basically hard walls the whole tier. We all know how Mudbrays take chip across the course of a game and Diglett-Alola is very frail. If you're not careful, Munchlax is a very serious crit-me-not threat. And even when careful, he can gain crucial tempo and make you pay.

Can you believe this Pokemon is D rank? I don't think Torchic can be OP, and Foongus can be very centralizing, while Munchlax is only considered D rank. All of those things cannot be true. Especially considering the slim Ghost-type usage we see.

All this is to say that not only is Munchlax a hard counter to every rendition of Torchic that people are complaining about, it is extremely viable in the current meta and criminally underutilized. Obviously Munchlax is rendered completely ineffective by a natural Ghost-type, but those aren't very common, and they are easily played around with support with things like Vull/Stunky. There's something to be said about letting the meta develop. New gen comes at the end of the year, I don't believe we're in any rush unless I'm mistaken. This gen's reign as currentgen is almost over.

I wasn't gonna provide replays but I figure this will be my only/longest post on the subject so why not (ladder so grain of salt but these are all pretty common team structures so) :

Munchlax Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2416008373-tp6bofxctv9mbg3gm10r8twgmtro7tqpw?p2
not the best opponent, but shows how Munchlax can set up on a common wall and that not much wants to tank the Body Slam

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2416013973-ri2y3hoqx63dk9a8hnebn5icplxxwadpw?p2
very strong game for munchlax, against a torchic, very standard opponent team

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2416305746-xpdvueilgdpeb1wyiwdp7254dxluihqpw
opp played horribly around stunky but showcases how munchlax can wall a torchic, wreak havoc, and catch a foo off guard

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2416293323-2ree1jnmss0bcgxb3ee31wlw6hriv4dpw?p2
opp gets lucky vs my tink, but munch still 1v1s a np vull with no problem

i can go on, obviously these are all ladder replays but i feel like the point is clear and this isn't just a ladder strat. should be noted some of my teams here have torchic, and i have chose to replace it with stunky to better match up against vull and shellder! those mons sure are good

This isn't solely just a Munchlax post, I just think that he is very important to general point I'm trying to make. Enough about Munchlax:

I think teams that lose, because their Foongus switch got predicted, and now they have to Tera Water in front of a Torchic they can't switch into, are bad teams. And those bad teams getting exploited by the fact that they don't have a Torchic answer when Munchlax exists, is no fault of Torchic's. I don't think it's unfair to tell people to run Munchlax when it is, for reasons outlined previously, very viable.

I think a team needs to be strong if it wants to win with how fast paced LC is, especially with Tera being the mechanic for this generation. In this gen, this entails you structuring your team so that you don't insta-lose to a well timed Torchic switch. The same also applies for a theoretical Shellder, Band Foo, NP Vull, etc. This entails making a strong team with multiple win conditions so that you don't just get rolled over by a strong team that just breaks yours. To beat Torchic you can use hazard control (rapid spinners are not that common and Vull is not reliable hazard removal), you can use priority, you can obviously Tera but that's never ideal. That's just the nature of metagaming and playing Pokemon. I don't think Torchic is unbeatable nor do I see it as any bit unhealthier than something like Nasty Plot Vullaby, or Shell Smash Shellder. The same points brought up in argument against Torchic also apply to these Pokemon-- they're very easy to set up, you have to walk around eggshells around them, they can often force an opponents Tera, and if they have the right Tera, you just lose! Vullaby can be argued to be worse with how much versatility it has between sets, and Shellder and is generally very annoying and not skillful. I think there are many powerful sweepers in the tier, and that you have to either build your team to survive them or beat them to the punch. It just is what it is.

Another point brought up in this thread against Torchic is how the cute bird is inherently unfun, due to reasons previously stated and due to the accuracy of Fire Blast and it being 50/50 reliant. While I see the validity in a statement like this, I feel as if we as a tier just use a lot of high BP low accuracy moves in general. And we welcome a lot of 50/50s in general as well. For God's sake, Mienfoo literally gets 100% usage and basically its only used STAB move loses you the game 1/10 times. Gunk Shot on Stunky, Rock Blast on Shellder, etc. Spore sleep turns, random poisons, random misses, burns. Removing Torchic will not remove the RNG factor from LC, if anything, it will only amplify the amount of Foongus warring we see happening. Is that alternative more fun? Honestly it's a maybe. I think it's well worth discussion though. I think the removal of Torchic will just lead to more of what we've seen, which is Mienfoo, Vull, Mudbray, Foongus, Glimmet, Diglett, Shellder, etc.. but mostly the ones named. I think a potentially very powerful strategy that hasn't perhaps been explored fully is Dual Screens offense. I think we haven't even attempted to use Munchlax, who I believe to be a very strong Pokemon in this rendition of Little Cup. If everyone slaps a Foongus on their team to abuse Spore and switch into Foo and Bray and opposing Foonguses (lol), why can't we try using Munchlax? It's not like Torchic is outright dominating every game it plays in, either. It's truly questionable how much usage Munchlax would even see if we were to hypothetically keep Torchic. I think the meta can develop further, but I don't outright see a problem with wanting to ban Torchic to try and strive for a healthier meta.

Final thoughts

This was a long post and I talked a lot about Munchlax but I feel like I touched on every relevant point that I had to bring up. I definitely am currently leaning towards no bird ban. I will add, everything I said here could be true and yet banning Torchic may still be the correct option for us as a community. Right now, I just have reservations that the meta post-Torchic ban will be entirely healthy/fun anyways. Maybe Torchic just runs Tera Fighting for Munchlax and it's completely uncheckable but I'm not entirely sure that interaction will always end in a win for the Torchic user. Tera is valuable.

I'm definitely currently not as open to banning Torchic as I am open to the possibility of banning Tera Blast or perhaps unbanning Speed Boost if we think the reintroduction of Flittle or Yanma could spice up the meta. Not sure what unbanning Tera Blast would bring back into the meta.

Thought I'd start off the discussion for the no ban side of things, I'm down for whatever as long as the outcome is a fun tier.

tl;dr munch is good (0.00001% usage rate) and beats torchic and torchic is just as bad as other silly sweepers like np vull, shell smash shellder, meta can develop more, maybe other bans should be considered if theres a certain state of the tier we wish to achieve. questions of torchic being anti-fun are brought up but i dont think an no-torchic meta is necessarily guaranteed to be fun. munchlax to b rank

 

[Éric]

inscribe Hi, I think you made a great pro-Munchlax post, but an insufficient anti-Torchic one. The post gives away that you do know what you're talking about, so I'm gonna treat you as such. I suppose this is the set we are talking about, with whatever EVs are optimal:

munchlax set

Munchlax @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
Tera Type: Poison
- Body Slam
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I do agree Munchlax is probably slept on and could be better than we think still, but there is a huge difference with that thought and with believing that it is a mon that solves the Torchic "problem". You mention how you think Foongus teams with no fire resist are bad, and how with Munchlax in mind we wouldn't have an issue with the Pokémon. The thing is, that is not an argument in favor of Torchic remaining legal. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that Munchlax really was a perfect Torchic counter. Would all Foongus teams need a Munchlax in order not to crumble vs Torchic? Could they function without it? If you think the teams we use are bad, then your answer is probably that they do all need a Munchlax. Do you consider that as balanced, having a Pokémon in a metagame so good that it would force the same Pokémon as its only answer in some teams? It's obviously not a desired outcome, and if that were truly the case, Torchic would have been banned by yesterday. In reality, there can be different, good anti-ban arguments for Torchic, and we do see games where it straight up doesn't win vs Foongus teams. Also, Munchlax is not a perfect Torchic counter. For starters, its preferred Tera type, which helps it beat Foongus and its nemesis Mienfoo, leaves it susceptible to Torchic's Terablast, with most of them being either Ground or Psychic. If Munchlax wants to actually overcome a Mienfoo, which is a Pokémon present in most teams, it will need to Terastalyze, and that is not a desired outcome if Torchic is in the opposing team as well. If it doesn't Terastalyze, Mienfoo will just negate its progress via U-Turn + Regenerator, so more often than not it will be forced. Another factor is Munchlax's susceptibility to chip damage and lack of (good) recovery. It will lose 3 HP every time it switches into Stealth Rock, and more if it switches into Sludge Bomb (as you think its prepared to do) and get Poisoned, or even burnt by Torchic's own Will-O-Wisp. If you want to Rest up all that damage, you become much more vulnerable, leaving the Torchic player in a good position regardless. Here is a replay of me beating a Munchlax with a Torchic team in LTWC lol
Not to mention the sheer amount of Tera Ghosts that do exist in the metagame and will completely stop this set, with it being Vullaby's main Tera type according to the analysis, and it being a common option in all of Mudbray, Glimmet, Mareanie, Foongus, Shellder and Wingull.

All in all, Munchlax isn't a savior to Torchic's reign in LC, even tho I do appreciate the different point of view you provide

 

[Hacker]

I have reqs now, and I intend on voting Do Not Ban

This being said, I don't really disagree with a lot of common points mentioned in this thread regarding Torchic and how hard it is to answer defensively and it maybe being too good for the tier. Despite that though, I find the meta as it is right now as definently not desirable but I find myself at peace with the current state of LC with the restrictions on what tiering action would have a reasonable chance of success. To me, I find Torchic encouraging us to use a variety of under utilized mons or moveslots like Grookey or experimenting with Mienfoo's last moveslot by using Substitute.

The main reason I am against banning Torchic though is it does help keep a lot of things I am personally worried about in check. Torchic gives you a good punish to Foongus if you can get it in on a Synthesis turn or off Mienfoo's U-Turn. This is basically the only "reliable" counterplay I can find for getting around Foongus with Mareanie teams unless you slap mediocre sets like Overcoat Vullaby on them, which open you up to being vulnerable vs tons of other mons like Chinchou.

My next worry of what the aftermath of a Torchic ban is Vullaby. I run multiple Vullaby counters on the majority of my builds anyways, but without Torchic I feel like this would be way more restrictive than it currently is right now. We have three three special attackers that effectively check Vullaby right now in Glimmet, Chinchou, and Elekid. I like glimmet more than any other LC player in the world so I won't be saying its not a reliable piece, but options to fit Chinchou and Elekid on teams feel really limited to me because they don't naturally fit onto a lot of structures and do their job well on them. Elekid is fast and at 20 speed, but struggles to get a lot of KO's, is hard to bring in, and completely struggles a lot into what I consider to be the better teams in the meta like GroundSpam and Grookey structures. Chinchou has a few more viable teamstructures you can use it on because it pairs pretty well with Tinkatink teams and can put it down as a secondary Vullaby answer on Mudbray teams. I think a lot of the arguments here come from a place of banning Torchic will give us more flexibility in the builder, while I don't feel that a lot because when building with these mons Torchic isn't really a factor that restricts how you build these teams if you aren't using stuff like Shellos on them anyways.

You could just say why not ban Sleep, and if needed Vullaby after if these mons continue to be a problem, and maybe thats fine but I feel like we would be heading in a similar-ish direction of how SWSH was going with the tier of offensive threats were gone, and stuff like Mienfoo was approaching territory of where it was legitimately near broken. I could be wrong about this though, as I feel a good amount less strong about my vote now than I did a while ago but I don't think im quite at the point where I would like to ban Torchic yet.

 

[inscribe]

inscribe Hi, I think you made a great pro-Munchlax post, but an insufficient anti-Torchic one. The post gives away that you do know what you're talking about, so I'm gonna treat you as such. I suppose this is the set we are talking about, with whatever EVs are optimal:

munchlax set

Munchlax @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
Tera Type: Poison
- Body Slam
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I do agree Munchlax is probably slept on and could be better than we think still, but there is a huge difference with that thought and with believing that it is a mon that solves the Torchic "problem". You mention how you think Foongus teams with no fire resist are bad, and how with Munchlax in mind we wouldn't have an issue with the Pokémon. The thing is, that is not an argument in favor of Torchic remaining legal. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that Munchlax really was a perfect Torchic counter. Would all Foongus teams need a Munchlax in order not to crumble vs Torchic? Could they function without it? If you think the teams we use are bad, then your answer is probably that they do all need a Munchlax. Do you consider that as balanced, having a Pokémon in a metagame so good that it would force the same Pokémon as its only answer in some teams? It's obviously not a desired outcome, and if that were truly the case, Torchic would have been banned by yesterday. In reality, there can be different, good anti-ban arguments for Torchic, and we do see games where it straight up doesn't win vs Foongus teams. Also, Munchlax is not a perfect Torchic counter. For starters, its preferred Tera type, which helps it beat Foongus and its nemesis Mienfoo, leaves it susceptible to Torchic's Terablast, with most of them being either Ground or Psychic. If Munchlax wants to actually overcome a Mienfoo, which is a Pokémon present in most teams, it will need to Terastalyze, and that is not a desired outcome if Torchic is in the opposing team as well. If it doesn't Terastalyze, Mienfoo will just negate its progress via U-Turn + Regenerator, so more often than not it will be forced. Another factor is Munchlax's susceptibility to chip damage and lack of (good) recovery. It will lose 3 HP every time it switches into Stealth Rock, and more if it switches into Sludge Bomb (as you think its prepared to do) and get Poisoned, or even burnt by Torchic's own Will-O-Wisp. If you want to Rest up all that damage, you become much more vulnerable, leaving the Torchic player in a good position regardless. Here is a replay of me beating a Munchlax with a Torchic team in LTWC lol
Not to mention the sheer amount of Tera Ghosts that do exist in the metagame and will completely stop this set, with it being Vullaby's main Tera type according to the analysis, and it being a common option in all of Mudbray, Glimmet, Mareanie, Foongus, Shellder and Wingull.

All in all, Munchlax isn't a savior to Torchic's reign in LC, even tho I do appreciate the different point of view you provide

Hi Eric, thanks for the kind words. Yes, that would be the set. I felt like my post was getting close to being too long so I ended up discussing Munchlax while discussing the state of the tier more than I specifically spoke about Torchic. I will try to rectify that here. But, I do feel like a player's conscious decision to run a "defensive Foongus team" (i think this structure is inherently unfun) designed to match up favorably into the entire tier being punished by a Pokemon that the metagame has an answer for begs for Munchlax to be brought up. Thus, I feel like Munchlax, his possible effectiveness, and the fact that he has literally seen zero actual serious non-gimmick team usage is very relevant to this topic.

I'll try to get my Munchlax points out of the way real quick. Trust me, I understand the absurdity of telling people to use Munchlax and get over the fact a potentially overpowered mon exists. I think Munchlax is the best answer in the tier to Torchic, and is VERY viable vs Non-Torchic teams at that.

Do I think it's healthy that perhaps everyone would be forced to run Munchlax in order to counter Torchic? I'm not sure. I know no one's really even tried yet. I know that over 80% of teams spam Foongus due to it being so good against Mienfoo and spreading sleep. A lot of teams opt for Foongus as a Foongus answer. I don't think any of that is necessarily healthy or interesting. I know that most teams answer to Vullaby is unfortunately, their own Vullaby. Tinkatink is one of the few switches in the tier and insta-loses if you switch into a Nasty Plot/Get flinched/Miss Twave/etc. This lack of switch-ins, match-up dependance, and RNG factor are things brought up in argument against Torchic. In a similar vein, in a hypothetical Post-Torchic meta, we will be having to account for ways to stop Shellder, Vullaby, Diglett, etc. Teams already currently need answers (multiple) for these Pokemon if not eventually assuredly losing for lack thereof.

I hope this doesn't come off as rude because it isn't meant to be, but I don't think the Vullaby-less, Mienfoo-less team you faced is a competitive example of a Munchlax team that helps Munchlax accomplish its strongest roles: a check to every special attacker in the tier (including Torchic) and an answer to Spore. Munchlax literally is only not favorable into Elekid, who your opponent instantly switched him into and immediately got neutered by Knock Off. And this is part of my point: I don't think that I'm the smartest person to use Munchlax, I think you guys can come up with more competitive structures that include a Munchlax in it. I think the best Munchlax team is yet to have been made. The meta can develop still.

Munchlax has more than done his job in the game if he either of these two things: tanks Spore, and switches into Torchic. Basically every team has a Foongus, Torchic, or both. Munchlax doesn't have to "overcome Mienfoo", the entire tier has basically developed in Munchlax's absence to try and mitigate Mienfoo. There are a lot of creative ways to beat Mienfoo that aren't limited to throwing a Mareanie, Foongus, and Shellos on your team. Munchlax "being easy to chip" and "lack of good recovery" is actually not relevant. He switches into Foongus for free, usually gets slept switching in or the turn after. A sleep turn is burned when Foongus inevitably switches out, and your opponent is going to have to tank a Sleep-talked Body Slam, deal with a +1 Atk +1 Def Lax if he rolls curse (this is not fun to deal with), or the Munchlax just rolls Rest and nothing happens. Outcome? Munchlax maybe took 20% damage and is now asleep, making him an even stronger answer to Foongus, while still hard countering Torchic. Easy to chip/lack of recovery? Munchlax gets a free switch into a lot of things, and sleep doesn't last very long. Foongus is bound to come back in to the game and provide Munchlax an opportunity to rest.

You mention Munchlax's preferred Tera Type being Poison, but that's just an offhand thing I mentioned as a way to catch a Mienfoo off guard in hopes to win a game. As I mentioned, if there isn't anything to hit the Poison Munchlax your opponent just loses the game (this usually entails chipping down a Mudbray). Munchlax does not have to Tera at all, you're most likely worse off if you ever do unless it's in a move to win. Tera-Psychic Torchic as a potential answer to Tera-Poison Munchlax is imo, irrelevant, as that interaction will rarely happen. I don't think Tera-Ghosting in response to a Munchlax is a desired outcome, either.

Now, I could talk about would-be Munchlax hypotheticals all day but that accomplishes nothing. We'd have to actually put it into use and see how it plays. The fact is that every Pokemon that you remove or add from your team (especially in fast paced LC) can have drastic effects on how your team plays. People want to get away with spamming Foongus, Mudbray, Mareanie, Vullaby, Shellder and company on their teams and Torchic I feel provides a respite from that while not being completely uncounterable. Torchic can force out opponent tera, can wreak havoc if he has the right Tera-type for your team, has an unfortunate element of RNG involved with him, and clean up late game once sufficient holes have been poked. I think these dynamics will still exist if Torchic was long gone, spiritually succeeded by equally silly pokemon like NP Vull and Shell Smash Shellder.

I'm gonna wrap this up because I'm sounding like a broken record. Essentially, what I'm saying is this. Torchic is strong, yes. So are other pokemon, in similarly dumb ways. They can argued to be more oppressive due to being more versatile than Torchic. I feel like the main argument against Torchic is that he's anti-fun, but I don't think it's a hot take to say that the rest of the tier barring Torchic isn't very fun. Hacker basically summed up my thoughts the above post, without a wall of text like I did. I think, if we are going to go along with banning Torchic, that we should have a candid discussion on the state of the metagame/what we're trying to achieve here/what needs to be done, because I don't believe the grass is much greener on the other side.

 

[Kingler]

I don't believe Munchlax is a super viable mon. I think you can point to nobody except Eniigma using it as evidence, it's passive, Mienfoo can uturn on it, seems very gimmicky and matchuppy and you are giving up one of the top mons or a sweeper like torchic/shellder on your team using it. I don't see how you have a good matchup against glimmet when it puts up a full set of hazards vs you and you can't reliably kill it without having at least a few boosts under your belt.

The main reason I am against banning Torchic though is it does help keep a lot of things I am personally worried about in check. Torchic gives you a good punish to Foongus if you can get it in on a Synthesis turn or off Mienfoo's U-Turn. This is basically the only "reliable" counterplay I can find for getting around Foongus with Mareanie teams unless you slap mediocre sets like Overcoat Vullaby on them, which open you up to being vulnerable vs tons of other mons like Chinchou.

My next worry of what the aftermath of a Torchic ban is Vullaby. I run multiple Vullaby counters on the majority of my builds anyways, but without Torchic I feel like this would be way more restrictive than it currently is right now. We have three three special attackers that effectively check Vullaby right now in Glimmet, Chinchou, and Elekid. I like glimmet more than any other LC player in the world so I won't be saying its not a reliable piece, but options to fit Chinchou and Elekid on teams feel really limited to me because they don't naturally fit onto a lot of structures and do their job well on them. Elekid is fast and at 20 speed, but struggles to get a lot of KO's, is hard to bring in, and completely struggles a lot into what I consider to be the better teams in the meta like GroundSpam and Grookey structures. Chinchou has a few more viable teamstructures you can use it on because it pairs pretty well with Tinkatink teams and can put it down as a secondary Vullaby answer on Mudbray teams. I think a lot of the arguments here come from a place of banning Torchic will give us more flexibility in the builder, while I don't feel that a lot because when building with these mons Torchic isn't really a factor that restricts how you build these teams if you aren't using stuff like Shellos on them anyways.

I would like to respond to this point, as it's certainly one I'm sympathetic to and I see people worry about the end-state of a tier a lot (often they predict correctly). If I'm being honest though, I don't think it's something that should be more than a secondary or tertiary suspect consideration. If it's broken you ban it, it's that simple, I don't think what it "adds" to the meta similarly to the Goth suspect or whether it makes it better is a consideration whatsoever. Sleep can come into play down the line, same with another billion things that could or could not be broken. Every usage-based tier has sleep banned in this gen; I am sure it would not be a stretch for LC to ban sleep if it's broken and enough council members agree. While I think Vull is certainly an incredibly strong mon, it's kind of ridiculous the closest thing we have to a check it is mudbray LOL, maybe it's broken in a post-Torchic meta maybe it isn't. Personally I thought keeping it in SS was the right call, and as we've gotten more methodical about tiering past gens I don't doubt that we could figure out the right approach to SV post-gen 10 if we don't get it done before the gen ends.

I'm not going to pull up a ton of Torchic replays that show why it's broken; I don't have that many games off the top of my head. This is based off a general feeling and games I've played in tests and tournaments; Éric has an excellent post above and I'm sure he has more replays as evidence. While I maintain it's irrelevant what this does to future LC building (in the narrow sense I described earlier), I do think we should think about just how much of a free kill a Torchic with a free turn is (for example vs Tinkatink) and whether that wouldn't help builders come up with new stuff if it departs.

 

[Éric]

The main reason I am against banning Torchic though is it does help keep a lot of things I am personally worried about in check. Torchic gives you a good punish to Foongus if you can get it in on a Synthesis turn or off Mienfoo's U-Turn. This is basically the only "reliable" counterplay I can find for getting around Foongus with Mareanie teams unless you slap mediocre sets like Overcoat Vullaby on them, which open you up to being vulnerable vs tons of other mons like Chinchou.

This is the only thing i dont understand from your post: if you already think foongus is a problem with torchic in the metagame, how would torchic keep it in check? isnt it better if we banned torchic (as long as it deserves it on its own) so we could either see the metagame develop where foongus isnt a problem, or have it still be one and ban it, solving the issue regardless?
basically, i agree with kinglers “if its broken you ban it period” stance, as its the rules we are playing by anyway, like it or not. but i still think your logic to keep it is a bit weird to understand

 

[inscribe]

I don't believe Munchlax is a super viable mon. I think you can point to nobody except Eniigma using it as evidence, it's passive, Mienfoo can uturn on it, seems very gimmicky and matchuppy and you are giving up one of the top mons or a sweeper like torchic/shellder on your team using it. I don't see how you have a good matchup against glimmet when it puts up a full set of hazards vs you and you can't reliably kill it without having at least a few boosts under your belt.

I'm gonna address this quickly, I don't want to keep harping on Munchlax but I think there's important things to clarify. I'm gonna try to be as succinct as possible because I've already spoke a lot about Munchlax and how I feel about a potential end-of-state Meta, and the tier in general.

First, I think these Munchlax hypotheticals are largely pointless because none of you have even tried it. I could go on about hypotheticals and illustrate interactions I've seen in my two weeks of laddering, but I think its silly because it shows no one has actually tried a serious team with Munchlax. I think a shame about LC nowadays compared to XY era is that the ladder is a lot more inactive than I remember it, I believe this makes it harder to theorycraft and test outside of actual tournaments or friendlies with people you know. I think a relatively dead ladder leads to a Meta developing more slowly. It is what it is and this is besides the point.
Second, you guys keep bringing up examples of teams like the one Eric posted and Eniigma's in Week Two* (the same team). The replay Eric posted was a team without Mienfoo or Vullaby, the strongest pokemon in the tier, that coincidentally synergize very well with Munchlax and appreciate the fact that he can tank sleep/not die to Torchic. Not that I think the team was necessarily bad, I think it's a really cool and effective team. It's just if you're gonna run a team without those 2 you need to either get a good matchup or have a really strong team somehow. It's obviously a very matchup reliant team, and he ran into a bad matchup. You can't reasonably ask Munchlax to wall Knock Off Elekid and Foongus, and Torchic. Lol. That's way too much. Maybe if he played around Elekid better he could have had a chance, I'm not too sure though because Elekid is hard to switch into. Elekid/Shellder/Torchic/Foongus is very hard to switch into for many teams. Not running Mienfoo/Vull to provide some bulk and counteroffense makes it harder. There's no argument to be made in favor of Munchlax actually being explored fully. Eniigma's usage of Munchlax was again literally the exact same team and he executed it very well in this matchup tbh, Munchlax also performed very well in that game so I don't really see it as an argument vs Munch. I don't think the sole time Munchlax being used in LCPL resulting in a win is representative of how he's not viable, especially in a metagame where Torchic sets that can't do more than tickle Munchlax are considered overpowered.
I also don't particularly see Munchlax being U-Turn/Knock Off bait seeing as theres a lot of ways to punish this in the meta not limited to but including Tink (specifically Air Balloon), Weak Armor Vull (especially NP), and other standard/more creative ways to beat Foo. Foo has always been a problem, I think Foo being your only bad common matchup is not a death sentence at all. Especially when you match up so favorable into basically everything else that sees usage. Elekid matchup is iffy for Munchlax but the Elekid matchup is iffy for a lot of things, lol. Defensively Tera ghosting is also not a very good option in a meta where NP Vull/Torchic/Shellder exist, alongside other non-set up dependent threats like Elekid.

I bring up Glimmet as something Munchlax enjoys its matchup against because late game it has an opportunity to just set up on it, or get a curse off and rest to start spamming sleep talk to apply pressure. Obviously I don't think you should switch your Munchlax into Glimmet Turn 2 when your opponent has a Mudbray and a Mienfoo and you don't have hazard removal. I think Glimmet is a pokemon we all have unspokendly agreed that you need to plan for in the Team Builder. Not having a way to deal with Glimmet early is a death sentence. I'm gonna refrain from talking about Munchlax for the rest of this thread to avoid derailing convo.

My stance on the matter is if your team loses to Tera-Psychic, Ground, or Grass Torchic after your Foongus and Mareanie get knocked off your team is constructed poorly. I understand it feels unfair to play around but so would literally everything else post-Torchic. It's just gonna be a lot of Vullaby and Shellder spam. I don't see why we'd be making balance changes for any other reason besides promoting diversity in the meta, and I feel that Vullaby (and to a lesser extent Foongus) are the most oppressive Pokemon in the team builder in a Post-Torchic Meta. There's hazards, Stunky, conserving one of Vull/Mienfoo's HP and evio, I think there's enough counterplay to beat Torchic. As of right now I'm a fan of letting the meta run, but if Torchic gets banned I will most definitely be supporting a Vullaby ban soonafter. I don't see why we can't live in a world where Torchic is really good, team comps are gonna be the same Post-ban anyways. I can see an argument against that reasoning though. I don't think anyone on the side of anti-ban feels confident about it, I think anti-ban sentiments stem from a belief that the meta can't get much better than it already is unless we make a couple changes.

I would like to respond to this point, as it's certainly one I'm sympathetic to and I see people worry about the end-state of a tier a lot (often they predict correctly). If I'm being honest though, I don't think it's something that should be more than a secondary or tertiary suspect consideration. If it's broken you ban it, it's that simple, I don't think what it "adds" to the meta similarly to the Goth suspect or whether it makes it better is a consideration whatsoever. Sleep can come into play down the line, same with another billion things that could or could not be broken. Every usage-based tier has sleep banned in this gen; I am sure it would not be a stretch for LC to ban sleep if it's broken and enough council members agree.

I think the sentiment of 'if its broken you ban it' is a great point. I personally am leaning no ban currently, and don't have much else to add that hasn't been already said from here. Curious to see how the rest of the community feels and how this discussion progresses, I'm very open to being persuaded I'm just not entirely sold on what a Post-Torchic future would look like currently.

 

[termnal]

I have been trying to organize my thoughts on this and I think I have finally figured out how I feel. Torchic and Magby, and fire types in general, all massively benefit from needing Foongus to answer Foongus. This forcing of Foongus being a spore immune mon with reliable recovery and anything that actually threatens it being banned, or at least suspected thank you for not banning goth, over and over again. In previous gens things like Abra, Gastly, pon,y dig helped keep Foongus in check, and you could run other defensive pieces that were immune to spore and provided different utility, or you didn't even need them cause Foongus had prevalent counter play which meant it wasn't on every single team. But in gen 9 Foongus has become so important that, like hacker said, running a team with a defensive piece that isn't foongus requires very specific most times sub optimal choices in order to handle foongus clicking spore at every opertunity. After helping out in lcpl and watching games it really feels like a meta without foongus, or maybe even spore/sleep should be something seriously explored. A world where you can run 2 defensive mons that are not spore immune like shellos, snubull, and koffing. I know that none of these specifically counter Torchic but all of these offer significantly less opportunity for torchic to enter the field, but right now to run any of these individually on a team I need to go ok how do I handle sleep and foongus and that answer 95% of the time is my own foongus. This just feels like a miserable environment to build in and quite honestly torchic isn't the thing causing problems Foongus is. I don't want to run it but I feel forced to cause anything else, like overcoat vull or chespin, feels even worse. I will also admit that as many people have stated tera/tera blast make thes issues much worse cause mons that would only be able to threaten Foongus, and lacked coverage/power to actually break through other checks now get that power from tera, but I still feel that lower foongus usage could even help in those areas cause the coverage you need to run would diversify.

All together this meta feels like on how do I ko foongus or take advantage of it as much as possible leading to the rise of stuff like sub foo, acro foo, all the fire types, we even discussed saftey goggles a-shrew at one point, cause everything feels centered around foongus foongus foongus and its miserable.

 

[bleahey]

I will be voting for a ban on Torchic, and in lieu of some of the tangents that have gone on in this thread, I wanted to post my reasoning, which I think is pretty straightforward. I'm someone with a Torchic keychain, so I am credible and can be trusted with tiering action.

Any breaker (in LC i'd define this as able to 2HKO most of Vullaby, Mienfoo, Foongus, Mareanie with one or more attacks) with >= 19 speed (or easy access to that speed tier) is a massive threat. These Pokemon can easily trade 2-3 kills for one with the right positioning, which can certainly be played around with good pathing. In my mind right now, if you add some extreme set variability or other ability impacting its lines or checks (eg, belly drum Magby, which immediately punished any switch-ins, and could more safely switch in on sleep moves), it becomes uncompetitive. Torchic also falls into this category, with multiple common teras, the potential for niche teras, several strong techs (wisp, sub, overheat, who knows what else).

For example, if a matchup warrants choosing to preserve Mienfoo or Mudbray as your Torchic check, you pick Mienfoo, and a revealed Tera Psychic Torchic, the game is practically over. A Pokemon that requires 2-3 available checks and limits opponent's lines is not healthy. While most Pokémon in this category have significant defensive and/or drawbacks (e.g., Wingull), they are able to capitalize on bad RNG to force through checks and make well-played games unwinnable with a crit/miss.

On the point that Foongus becomes unbearable with Torchic banned, or has too much to do with it being called broken, I have to disagree. I think Torchic actually makes Foongus more threatening through the pressure it applies to Vullaby and other Foongus checks. If Vullaby is poisoned by a sludge bomb, Vullaby can be picked off by most Torchic sets, freeing Foongus for more shenanigans (the resulting 50/50: 196+ SpA Life Orb Tera Psychic Torchic Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 13-17 (56.5 - 73.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and poison damage). In the absence of a Pokemon that applies extreme pressure to Vullaby, a Pokemon expected to check it, a poison may actually be an advantageous interaction allowing you to switch in on Foongus more easily. Torchic also punishes steel types like Alolan Sandshrew and Tinkatink that can apply significant pressure in Foongus wars with little drawback (doesn't need to tera).

Individually, I think any of these categories can be refuted in comparison to other threats in the tier, and I might agree. However, all considered, I don't think Torchic is a healthy presence in the current meta, and I hope to see it go.

TLDR:
Wallbreaker that can pick its checks, has easy access to 21+ speed, and invalidates speed control is unhealthy and uncompetitive.

 

[xonks]

got reqs with 2 idles (sorry LeJames Chonk); i'm leaning ban.

as stated in the previous posts, torchic can easily tera blast away its checks and the 4th move drastically changes how you play around it, both of which are impossible to tell off preview. speed boost means you can't check it offensively, forcing you to tera defensively. most of my teams have like 3 tera water/dragons just for torchic. let's say you force torchic to switch. it will still find opportunities to come in through sacrifices, pivot moves, or predicts.

forcing the tera is huge progress because it opens you up to other threats like diglett and shellder. i got reqs using a shellder torchic team, which makes getting the tera right really hard - if you tera steel against shellder, you open yourself up to fireblast; if you tera water against torchic, you open yourself up to shellder's rock blast.

yes, there is counterplay such as priority, but priority can't always beat torchic:

fake out is blocked by protect.

trapinch's feint will not ko unless torchic is super chipped, and meowth really struggles in a tier full of tera ghosts.

with will-o-wisp and substitute, sucker punch is not reliable as a check. if you get the turns correct, great, but if you don't, you're cooked.

ice shard is resisted by torchic. if it teras and you switch in confidently, it's really obvious you have shard and your opponent can easily switch.

same with ice shard. switching to foongus/vullaby is really easy.

if you use aqua jet, you can usually ko or force out torchic, but then you'd be using quaxly or corphish.

 

[Zcarlett]

Just got reqs, but I dont have anything unique to say other than echoing suspect tera blast. I will be voting ban for the same reasons everyone else here is outlined. Having a pokemon at 21+ Speed with Strong yet unreliable fire stab that gets to pick its checks is really obnoxious