Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]

"These items all work to reduce your definite counterplay into a luck based sequence, which you have 0 control over, making these items uncompetitive. They are obviously different from chance based abilities/moves such as serene grace because you can prepare for those abilities/pokemon. This is contrast to items such as bright powder which disregard any building/playing skill. Most of these items don't show up very often, which can lead to people wondering why action is being taken, but on the flip side, it doesn't hurt to get rid of items that are uncompetitive when they do show up."
- the ban thread from ss

However on the flip side there is something I want to talk about these items as well, and its how widespread Knock Off is everywhere; almost every team has access to knock off and if the item is knocked off then the pokemon whose been knocked off has lost an immense part of its moveset and then could become useless.

Can we stop with the "luck=bad" thing? If we're banning things for being luck based we should have axed Dire Claw, Flame Body, Static, and co a long time ago. These abilities have had much more metagame impact and decide matches much more often than quick claw of brightpowder ever had or will. Overall "no counterplay but luck" is a shitty argument and I have no idea why people continue to spout such nonsense. I too enjoy when my one sneasler answer gets randomly put to sleep and I lose, or when my one breaker (band meow on grass, for example) gets burnt and i get 6-0ed when i no longer have a way to break a flying core, or when my one scarfer gets para'd by static and I have no way to revenge kill a threat.

If a good player wants you to play with RNG dice rolls you are going to play with RNG dice rolls. That doesn't mean luck=bad, it's just the game we play.

I completely agree with unbanning Focus Band, Quick Claw, and Brightpowder.
 
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Can we stop with the "luck=bad" thing? If we're banning things for being luck based we should have axed Dire Claw, Flame Body, Static, and co a long time ago. These abilities have had much more metagame impact and decide matches much more often than quick claw of brightpowder ever had or will. Overall "no counterplay but luck" is a shitty argument and I have no idea why people continue to spout such nonsense. I too enjoy when my one sneasler answer gets randomly put to sleep and I lose, or when my one breaker (band meow on grass, for example) gets burnt and i get 6-0ed when i no longer have a way to break a flying core, or when my one scarfer gets para'd by static and I have no way to revenge kill a threat.

If a good player wants you to play with RNG dice rolls you are going to play with RNG dice rolls. That doesn't mean luck=bad, it's just the game we play.

I completely agree with unbanning Focus Band, Quick Claw, and Brightpowder.
This is not about luck, this is about these items's effects. Absolutely everything is luck-based in this game, but not everything gives you a +1 priority or a chance to avoid any move, which is why these items are getting banned from pretty much everywhere, they're uncompetitive, which is a bad thing. Static & Flame Body are luck-based due to their effect of having 30% to be activated, however their effects are competitive. Dire Claw is arguably uncompetitive due to its Sleep effect and the fact that it's a 50% to activate, but this is unique to Sneasler, so Dire Claw would not be banned, Sneasler would. The issue with the items mentioned in this post and the post you're responding to is that any Pokemon can hold them, thus allowing a lot of Pokemons to run uncompetitive strategies.

I don't think it is worth unbanning any aforementioned items, the tier would only be harmed by uncompetitive and luck-based strategies, they don't provide any good to the tier imo
 
Hello everyone. Here are the results of the community type VR.

Number of respondents: 19
Number qualified: 16

Qualified
Code:
Flying    1.93
Dragon    2.13
Steel    2.73
Water    5.07
Fighting    5.53
Ground    5.73
Dark    6.33
Fairy    8.13
Ghost    8.87
Fire    10.87
Poison    11.07
Normal    11.27
Bug    12.40
Psychic    13.93
Ice    15.47
Grass    15.93
Rock    16.40
Electric    17.20
View attachment 733547

Overall
Code:
Dragon    1.89
Steel    2.50
Flying    2.67
Water    4.89
Fighting    5.61
Ground    5.89
Dark    6.00
Fairy    7.50
Ghost    8.11
Fire    10.11
Poison    10.11
Normal    10.56
Bug    11.83
Psychic    13.00
Grass    14.61
Ice    14.89
Rock    15.17
Electric    16.17
View attachment 733548
It’s time for an update to this Type VR. The reason this should be revisited is due to the recent survey results stating that the metagame is considered balanced. Unless there’s some major shift that happens within the metagame, this is the SV we are playing from here on out. Often times I see people asking, “What are the best types?” and this very post by Ethereal Sword is linked to this day as a good consensus of how the community ranks each type across the entire metagame, ladder and tournament play.

While the Community Type VR isn’t official, I believe this updated VR should be well put together until the official one is done after Gen 9 ends just so we can use it as a helpful resource to newer/returning players.
 
Well if ESword is going to open the flood gates, I guess I may as well post my own personal typing rankings. Maybe we'll get a decent discussion out of this.
Quick type VR.png

S:
:Sky-Plate:
As the only type that doesn't really have to play the hazard metagame with strong versatility in team options, Flying is still the best type in the tier in my eyes. While it had a mediocre MPL I think that came down to a lot of people sticking to comfort builds (we saw a lot of Glisc + Corv + Torn-T with some combo of DNite, Lando-I, Molt and Cuno while everything else fail to crack double digits) and not really trying to do much interesting with the type overall, instead being compliant. Once people start doing cool things with this type again, people will realize its the best again.

:Draco-Plate:
There is a reason this type had the best MPL overall, its sheer power without any majorly glaring weakness outside of a poor MU into hazard stack (which it can generally handle through just putting on so much offensive pressure since even its defensive mons have base 100+ in their offenses) keeps it high for me (I do jump a bit between this and flying being No.1 though)

:Dread-Plate:
With this type getting further optimized again, it is just a great offensive type without many flaws. Especially as Fairy and Fighting are not proving to be perfect answers into them while in response, Dark can just put on near uncontested offensive pressure with really strong hazard support in Ting-Lu which also gives some defensive stability. Like Dragon it does lack hazard removal and unlike Dragon Sableye and Mandibuzz (the main defensive mons) aren't offensive super stars, but its got too much gas not to put this high.

A:
:Iron-Plate:
I think Steel has a similar issue to Flying with a lot of people sticking to the same 5 core + filler mon with minimal experimentation, but it being the best type in the tier to hazard stack with thanks to Ghold is valuable. Also resisting like everything as well with a good MU into most types is solid.

:Earth-Plate:
Ground is Ground, I think this type is just too consistently solid of just being able to click buttons and get away with it. Yes its got some problem MUs, but physical attackers clicking STAB Earthquake will never be bad in my opinion unless the metagame becomes so Grass, Bug, and Flying focused. But that won't ever happen.

:Splash-Plate:
Similar to most types, bad hazard game, but unlike most types it is forced to deal with said hazards as a problem which does hurt it. Still, its got strong versaility, a buffet of viable playstyles, and just so many good all around mons, its still solid.

:Fist-plate:
Same thing as ground, STAB Close Combat is too good. Unlike Ground this is a type that does have to worry about a few bad MUs that are incredibly rough, but having those good matchups into most of the top 5 (flying is a bit iffy but still plenty playable) is what keeps this type in competition for me.

:Pixie-Plate:
:Spooky-Plate:
These types are kind of just the same to me. Both just want to click their strong special attacks with like one insane physical attacker to push them further. Why I put Ghost as B and Fairy as A is due to how much stronger Fairy's STAB is along with Klefki granting a nice boon. Not having to worry the world's worst mirror and having a good Dark MU and better Dragon are also nice boons.

B (proper now)

:Spooky-Plate:
read above.

:Flame-Plate:
Sun offense is dumb. I do think Sun enabling 7 turns for so many breakers as a whole is stupid and has so much breaking potential mostly kept in check by Dragon having an easy time using proto to throw it right back in Fire's face and being a constant presences along with Ground and Water always keeping fire on its toes.

:Insect-Plate:
I'm a believer in Bug, always have been. This type just gets to do whatever it wants a lot of the time because of how good its sticky web offense can be. Of course it can struggle into stuff, notably Fire's recent rise, along with Steel still remaining a consistent defensive hold prevent it from pushing too far. But Bug is my pick for most underrated type.

C: From this point onwards I think the types are very much not consistently good and a bit more of a matchup fish. That being said they have strong enough tools that into most matchups they can reasonably work.

:Toxic-Plate:
Bias on main, I still think Poison has a place. It can beat nearly every type outside of Ground, Flying, and Fire reliably (and Fire I'm not convinced is a lose if you MU fish it correctly) but really has to choose its matchups in the builder first and foremost and nothing really feels like it covers enough leaving major blind spots. Still consistently strong Fairy, Fighting, and Ghost (thanks AMuk) with generally a solid Water and bug makes this the best of the fishing types.

:Blank-Plate: First off, I did not know until doing this that normal got a plate this gen. (Still needs to be implemented, but it exists) Secondly, normal has some weird MUs, like its got a generally great stall matchup, has strong tools to break most types since Ursaluna hits so hard making it rough to switch into and the Ghost immunity really pisses of, well Ghost, as it prevents Hex Spectrier and Ghold from going super nutty but in the same vein doesn't enjoy seeing Fighting or Steel at all.

:Icicle-Plate:
This one (and psychic) might be questionable, but strong Dragon, Flying, and Ground does it for me. Yeah its got some disasters in Steel, Bug, and Fire but when it works, oh god it works.

:Mind-Plate:
It has A strong fighting matchup and can do some decent work into Flying and Water. Maybe this type needs more cooking as I know Neko is cooking something (because no one else wants to build Psychic) but I don't think its completely booty, unlike the last three.

D: Don't, I don't think any of these types should be used unless you want to CTeam and even then, they're bad.

:Stone-Plate:
The only type here that can fish correctly. Its ability to actually beat Fire and possibly put pressure onto Flying (but I've seen so many good flying teams consistently handle it) makes it the best of the worse. Still kind of just collapses to most types those. Doesn't even have a bug MU worth trying to salvage.

:Zap-Plate:
I think its got a Steel MU, probably claps Water real bad and might have a flying? Still Dragon and Ground stop this from being anything too good and it lacks any sort of good response to special spam which can allow Ghost and Fairy to easily blow it over.

:Meadow-Plate:
Meet potential type because there is no good reason why people keep loading it, thinking it might get anything done, when the only accomplishment its gotten recently is winning against itself in MFPL. That is it. It got loaded thrice in MPL last year to no results, once this year to no results. It will happen against next year when people try to fish and fail with it as per usual.
If you enjoyed, sick, hopefully you post yours and we can have a good discussion on why Grass is only bottom 2 instead of bottom 1 or something.
 
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I lost 100 points of elo so I had to climb back up, but here is my ranking.

1756263380219.png


S+(I think these are the best types):
Dark: The best type. You can see it with MWP and MPL results. The whole thing with dark is that with enough prep, you can face any type. With small tweaks, you can have a positive MU against any type. The only pokemon that is rough for any dark team without making severe compromises is Lokix. The type's flexibility is what makes it very hard to prep for, very small changes to moves and ev spreads are enough to flip any MU, like band thunder punch meow with scarf gren.

Steel: Steel seems to have the perfect 6 pokemon. In fact, I think it's a crime that in MWP/MPL, people more often used things like bisharp and scizor over hoodra when Hoodra does so much, esp with that huge movepool. However, if you delve into the specifics, you will see cracks starting to form. Choosing the same 6(maybe swapping corv and skarm) is very predictable and will tend to get you c-teamed. Previously, pokemon like lando-I, hearthflame, and okidogi seemed to be lights out for steel, but then steel found stupid ways to weasel itself around these checks. Like scarf tran made hearthflame lesser of a lesser problem and actually flipped the fire MU on its head. Right now, in order to beat steel, you often have to use very specific sets. For example, hoodra on dragon has started to run eq for opposing hoodra and gholdengo. The rise of mixed Hoopa-U and gallade is largely due to this type. Idk why, but somehow steel can adapt.

S(These types are almost as good as S+ tier but have some minor problem):
Flying: Your strength mainly stems from the fact that you ignore eq and the hazard game. The only hazards that works is rocks and most things you have are not weak to rocks or run boots(or ur name is av torn). The main issue is that most team building considers flying a bit too much, I have seen dragon run all 3 of latios, kyurem, and raging bolt. The other problem is that flying has a huge ice weakness despite having 2 good steel types. However, it's still #3 because you have to get through the steels first.

Dragon: Dragon sort of has the same issue with steel where arch + hoodra patches so many problems, but you are sort of forced into the same 6, but with a bit more flexibility. However, I have seen a lot more nite and garchomp, meaning dragon can adapt but for every problem you solve, another one pops up.

Water: I may be biased, but I think water stall is really strong. The reason is that most top types lack good grass attackers. Dark with Meow is the only one I can think of on the top of my head. Having gastrodon with sticky hold to absorb knock off is really annoying. However, I do believe with good plays, you can break through so it's mostly a skill issue on my part.

A(Great but not in contention for top types):
Ground: Probably one of the most braindead types. With Excadrill under gravity and sand, basically nothing switches in. However, this one trick is one of its only strengths, and people have started to adapt to it. This doesn't make it not good. It's just that people are much more prepared for it. For example, with proper play, this MU is currently almost even with steel, even if you are supposed to win.

Fairy: Fairy's main strength is allowing their strong breakers to shine, esp with klefki support. The issue is that most types have really good steels. If you encounter something like scizor, it's close to lights out. Yes you have val, but often it's not enough. However, you have a good MU into dark and dragon(not as good). I think the rise of primarina patches a lot of problem.

Fighting: I think gallade is a hidden gem, which made fighting the powerhouse it is. Suddenly, dealing with things like archaludon, and with shadow sneak, things like flutter mane a lot easier(although still not easy). The issue is that outside tusk and hands, you are on the frail side and are forced into playing a very offensive game.

B(Good but has notable flaws):
Normal: With Kitea constantly stressing how normal is top 5, I decided to try it out. It was not as bad as we thought. H-zoro mind games aren't too much of a problem, but if you are skilled, it forces a lot of 50/50. You have surprisingly decent hazard removal with braviary and pagos. pagos' movepool can also help you beat a lot of things and luna's sheer strength is often enough to leave a lot of holes. If someone tries to set up, you have the get out of jail free card that is ditto. The issue is that you are also sort of forced into the same 6 and the pokemon you have are not as strong as those in steel and dragon hence the much lower placement.

Ghost: Your threat realies mainly on ghost offense(ergo shadow ball) with ceru being one of the few actually running physical sets. However, with dark's prevalence and many types having really good dark types(looking at you, stupid deer), it's very difficult, the only reason dark vs ghost is playable is because mane exists.

Poison: Solid defensive type, but often feels very passive. Most types usually have a really annoying answer, steels in general are a pain to play against even if you have things like dogi/sneasler and moth. Gliscor is just hell too.

Fire: Fire is good for one thing, mashing fire moves under sun and breaking types out of sheer strength. However, with how strong dragon is, it's very hard for fire to survive. Fire was supposed to have an easy MU against steel, but with the rise of scarf tran, the mu is much closer to even right now.

C(When flaws too major to completely solve):
Bug: You are good into fairy and dark, that's your strength. However, against things like flying and steel, it's very rough. The main issue is that you are the bug type. The types you are supposed to be effective against(outside dark): grass and psychic, are both low tier types. Even steel hits super effectively(outside fairy): ice and rock, are low tier types. So your strengths are not that useful outside 2 specific matchups. This means you have to directly brawl with most types. Kleavor does make fire pretty easy, but against the other top types, the shared bug type really hurts. Most types have great steel and flying types, or a really bulky water type that makes life very hard. This is the type with probably the most polarizing strengths and weaknesses, but the weaknesses outweigh the strengths a bit too much.

Psychic: With gallade and hoopa-U, I have defo come to appreciate what psychic does. The issue is that without lele, there are a lot of types you just can't solve, namely: dragon and dark.

Ice: You have a decent MUs against the top types, but even so, flying and dragon have a lot of good checks(like hoodra and arch on dragon). Still, outside fighting and steel, your MU against the other top types are almost even. You have a lot of chances with the snow buffing everyone defense. However, ice is still ice and has too many weaknesses.

D(Only use to challenge yourself):
Grass: I may be biased since I play this type a lot, but I believe grass to be the least bad of these types. The main issue is that you have to pick between hearthflame and cornerstone. This means you either have a better overall MU, notably against steel but be weaker against flying, or you have a good flying MU, at the cost of your overall MUs being worse and almost completely losing vs steel. However, grass suffers from similar problems as bug, grass as a type is just bad, and without things like ferrothorn and/or mega ven, there are a lot of times where you are forced into sacking because you just cannot switch in.

Electric: You are missing koko, end of story. With hands and shocks, your steel MU is decent. The flying MU also nice, despite how annoying gliscor or lando-I are. Similar story for water. With dragon and ground being this strong, it's very hard to actually rise the ranks.

Rock: I think the worst type in SS is also the worst type in SV. Unlike SS, you no longer have the option to switch into water and grass moves with cradily. This means this gen, you are truly forced into playing pure offense. The issue is that you have no defensive utility. I genuinely believe the only type you have a positive MU against is fire and maybe ice.
 
I’ll just share the updated Type VR I sent my best friend. When I first made it, it was to help him learn the meta. I gave him a Gouging Fire team at the time and he climbed to top 10 while gaining knowledge along the way. I had all the standard teams that was ran back then and updated them last week and moved some types around. These are ranked in order.

Please feel free to correct me on the most commonly ran teams on each type. I shared what I saw being ran the most in my games on ladder, last MPL with test games and replays, and discussions with others. This is a community project that’s really fun to do together.

S Rank​

Dragon: https://pokepast.es/75d23e8904463c51

Flying: https://pokepast.es/074f6c0476c56885

Steel: https://pokepast.es/a38f68e811ba3b07

Dark: https://pokepast.es/6fb13ef6837199ef

A Rank​

Ground: https://pokepast.es/87ba9a5b97099d7c

Fighting: https://pokepast.es/f5be9374d0592c88

Fairy: https://pokepast.es/a2b026bc9de943b8

Water: https://pokepast.es/f7ce05b6cf1a9939

Fire: https://pokepast.es/f5f89caa70b1ca2e

B Rank​

Ghost: https://pokepast.es/bc6a3aa3b507d282

Normal: https://pokepast.es/30d2a9a7b54514b5

Poison: https://pokepast.es/194c6a080ef81826

Psychic: https://pokepast.es/f95157f4763a1586

C Rank​

Ice: https://pokepast.es/96801daf6510aa30

Grass: https://pokepast.es/963ee4ed248cec5d

D Rank​

Bug: https://pokepast.es/3b66efb42bccc391

F Rank​

Electric: https://pokepast.es/053feb390438636f

Rock: https://pokepast.es/923a241d4c98bdf0
 
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