Lower Tiers GSC Little Cup

[Zcarlett]

(Approved by Siatam)

(Banner by Hultizy)
GSC Little Cup is a format that has had several variations, notably being included in Pokémon Stadium 2 and having a Smogon played on and off since 2014. This thread will be picking up where the 2014 Smogon thread left off, continuing with a Smogon tiering policy. There are a number of mechanical differences in GSC and changes from the 2014 thread that anyone planning to play the format should consider:

• No Physical-Special Split: As a result, some Pokémon lose STAB that they would normally have in future generations, but get coverage in moves that would not normally be used like Hidden Power.​
• Limited Item Pool: Even compared to Generation 3, GSC LC sees a drastically reduced item pool. The 3 most common options are: Gold Berry being the standard as it effectively fully heals your Pokémon when they hit half health, Miracle Berry to block any sleep or paralysis attempts, or Item-less Thief to steal your opponent's item.​
• Early Turn Ends: Contrary to the more modern generations of Pokémon, the turn ends immediately upon a Pokémon faints. This allows for the usage of Explosion and Self-Destruct to end turns early or sacrificing a Pokémon to entry hazards.​
• Lack of Abilities: In Generation 2, Pokémon do not have abilities, meaning that Pokémon such as Koffing and Gastly are weak to Ground in this generation, Diglett cannot trap, Staryu is unable to cure status, etc.​

If you have any further questions, want to play the format against experienced players, need advice for a team you are building, or anything else of that nature, feel free to join our Discord server! Right now, the tier does not currently have a format on Pokemon Showdown! and as such you need to use a command to challenge someone on the site, which can be found in the Resources section of the page.

Resources:

Bans

All standard Gen 2 Smogon clauses apply
Pokemon: Chansey, Scyther
Moves: Dragon Rage, Sonic Boom, Present, Sleep Inducing Moves

Challenge Code

/challenge [Gen 2] NU @@@ Little Cup, -Chansey, -Scyther, -Sonic Boom, -Dragon Rage, -Present, -Sing, -Hypnosis, -Spore, -Sleep Powder, -Lovely Kiss

Tiering Council

Camden (Tier Leader)
Zcarlett

Viability Rankings

WARNING: HAVE NOT BEEN UPDATED SINCE SLEEP BAN
S Rank

S1 Rank

Porygon

S2 Rank

Elekid
Abra

A Rank

A1 Rank

Meowth
Houndour
Diglett
Staryu

A2 Rank

Mankey
Chinchou
Doduo

A3 Rank

Gastly
Ponyta
Omanyte
Pineco
Magnemite

B Rank

B1 Rank

Voltorb
Koffing
Cubone
Smoochum

B2 Rank

Sandshrew
Onix
Exeggcute

B3 Rank

Spinarak
Magby
Paras
Slowpoke
Snubbull
Bellsprout

C Rank

*Pokemon in C Rank are more niche options, and as such it is generally recommended for newer players to stay away from these Pokémon. Please do not argue about the ordering of Pokémon within this tier as they are only loosely ordered.

Machop
Poliwag
Ledyba
Bulbasaur
Natu
Grimer

Speed Tiers

19 Speed	Diglett, Elekid, Voltorb
18 Speed	Abra, Meowth, Poliwag, Ponyta, Staryu
17 Speed	Doduo, Gastly, Magby,
16 Speed	Chinchou, Houndour, Mankey, Natu, Onix, Smoochum
15 Speed	Ledyba
14 Speed	Bulbasaur, Magnemite
13 Speed	Bellsprout, Cubone, Exeggcute, Koffing, Machop, Omanyte, Porygon, Sandshrew
12 Speed	Snubbull, Grimer
11 Speed	Slowpoke, Pineco

Sample Teams

WARNING: HAVE NOT BEEN UPDATED SINCE SLEEP BAN
https://pokepast.es/b1ff646871927bf7 - Normal Spam by Zcarlett
https://pokepast.es/ac4efeef3f953415 - Standard Diglett Lead by Zcarlett
https://pokepast.es/ad2d93e54e89c97e - Pony Lead by naere
https://pokepast.es/8f0e64a55d33ecc3 - Paraspam by Zcarlett
https://pokepast.es/c7a3b06c84d688f9 - Elekid Diglett Spikes by corvere
https://pokepast.es/384d52247e0cdfdb - Electric Spam by corvere

 

[2xNoodle]

Are there mechanical differences between GSC and Stadium 2 mechanics? Not sure what the difference is between this format for LC and the Stadium 2 version that has it's own thread (which actually has in one of its more recent posts a statement that the thread is for both versions) besides Chancey and Scyther being banned in this format (and Present banned here while only proposed for ban there).

EDIT: Oh, are they different threads because the other one is 6-3 but this is straight 6v6?

 

[Zcarlett]

April 2024 Tiering Survey

After the conclusion of the kickoff tour, GSC LC is looking to gather opinions on the tiers health and a few specific issues that came up to be particularly problematic.

The survey can be found here: https://forms.gle/QANrFUJD69KE45qj6

 

[Zcarlett]

Sleep is now banned from GSC LC! (plus tiering survey results)

After the conclusion of the kickoff tour, a tiering survey was put in place to gauge opinions on the more divisive aspects of the tier.

The resources will be updated in due time to reflect this change.

Sleep was the primary object at the chopping block, with the majority of people being frustrated at the swingy nature that leads become as a result of this. 18 Speed Pokemon like Meowth and Ponyta using the inaccurate sleep move could easily turn the lead matchup into one big coinflip, not to mention how horrifying it was to run into a sleeper midgame.

Baton Pass may see further investigation and even tiering action in the very near future depending on how it functions with Sleep banned. The primary usage for BP is to pass stat boosts to a powerful sweeper, typically being Cubone with its high attack stat thanks to Thick Club. Not many Pokemon have the tools to deal with a Speed boosted Cubone, and as a result it can be a rather polarizing interaction.

Porygon was by far the least controversial part of this survey. From a conventional sense, Porygon has no defensive checks to its phenomenal STAB Double Edge, its special coverage of Ice Beam and Hidden Power Grass/Ground, and Thief for longevity. However due to it's low speed, it has been an easier Pokemon to position around compared to other more offensively minded threats.

I'm lumping Abra and Elekid together here because on paper they are very similar Pokemon, although they are different. Abra and Elekid are fast, offensively minded Pokemon that with only one real defensive switch in (Houndour and Diglett respectively). Given the variance in the way people responded and the shakeup that a sleepless meta will be, we will be sure to keep an eye on what kind of impact Elekid and Abra have on the meta going forward.

 

[Stealth Croc]

I've noticed a few people bouncing off of this format so I think it would be helpful to have some more resources available. To start, I've been meaning to finish a breakdown of Baton Pass for a while because, while beatable, it's a bit of a knowledge check and tends to blindside and frustrate newer players.

This isn't a ban discussion - that would require a deeper dive into BP structures. I might do a follow-up post, but for now I want to focus on a foundation against the most basic BP teams. Just know that it can get a bit more complicated.

So, let's start with the baton passers:
That's all of them, and the nature of GSC learnsets means there aren't even any legal subpass sets for any of these. The important options are Agility on Spinarak and Ledyba, or curse on Eevee and Venonat.

Agility Pass ->
Cubone has two traits that make it the most dangerous pass target by far:

• It doesn't always need a setup turn
• If it does set up, the game is over

So the idea is that you always assume Cubone is the pass target and proactively try to stop it from getting in safely. Other pass targets are still viable, but they usually won't be a win condition unless they're up against a significantly weakened team (the one exception is Sandshrew, which shares most of the same counterplay as Cubone anyways).

These are the questions you should be asking to evaluate your options when you see this strategy:

Do I have anti-setup?

Probably not

Haze does exist as an anti-setup tech, but running it will hurt your other matchups. I would only build with it as a last resort.
Most teams can't build in phazing very easily, but it does disrupt sub+thief and can give valuable scouting info. I'd say it's somewhat possible to fit on spikes teams.

Can I KO the passer?
Ledyba catches OHKOs from some popular attackers (). Strong fire and rock attacks () are some of your best options for shutting down either of the agility passers.

A common mistake, though, is positioning too late for pressure on the passer. If you have to switch into the passer, it doesn't work. Instead, you should be positioning to pressure Cubone.

One exception

Your own Cubone can OHKO either passer and is tanky enough to beat opposing Cubone switching into it, so you're usually fine to bring it in against the passer reactively. The downside is that it needs to conserve its health and item, which the passers could disrupt depending on their set.
Earthquake is exceptional at pinning down Spinarak BP structures thanks to its OHKO on the passer and 2HKO into Cubone. Against Ledyba, you can only KO with RS + bonemerang if the opposing Cubone is running HP Bug, but if you're running a grass type or have no other options it could be worth the risk.

Should I click thunder wave?

Probably not

This one I want to talk about because it's also common to misuse paralysis.
Paralysis into agility click = bad
Paralysis before agility = good
Unless you have no other options and must play for a full para, the risk is not worth it.

Can I KO Cubone?
To do this, you'll need to aim for it on the BP turn. Most players won't simply throw Cubone into an OHKO, so they'll need to pass to a backup target such as Porygon. BP teams can't take many hits before folding (especially spikes variants), so it's still favorable to force them to spend health and the element of surprise on a pass target that is easier to check.

The main ways to threaten a KO on Cubone are:

• STAB water/ice
  • >14 special attack is required for a guaranteed KO, but even non-guaranteed is an effective deterrent.
• Explosion
  • Especially good for being easy to fit on just about any team. Can KO passers even with defense boosts, and KOs just about everything else as a bonus. Can be beaten with protect, but that still gives you switch advantage.

Priority and/or spikes can broaden your options, but on the other hand screens (usually from Ledyba itself) can make OHKOs impossible. Remember that if you can't OHKO Cubone, it is still important that you deal enough damage to 2HKO to prevent further setup (SD is not always run on Cubone but you should play like it is).

Can Cubone KO me?
If Cubone has hit the field, you're at the point where you'll need to finish the job with a bulky check.

Relevant Cubone rolls

This is a non-comprehensive collection of Cubone's unfavorable (<50%) KO rolls, not including accuracy.
Honorable mention to

Bonemerang/Rock Slide/HP Bug + Spikes:
0% -
0.1% -
2.6% -
30.8% -

Earthquake + Spikes:
0% -
2.6% - (HP Bug)
28.2% -
33.3% -

Bonemerang
0.1% -
2.6% -
28.8% -
34.1% -

Earthquake
0% -
2.6% -
25.6% -
48.7% -
56.4% -

This shows that spikes matter a lot, given that Porygon works without them. Spinners and fire leads could be a good way to shore up a weak BP matchup.

Because Cubone's attack relies on a hold item, you can also thief it on the switch. Against SD sets, though, this will only buy you some chip damage and an extra turn.

Finally, if you lack any bulky checks, you still have curse or reflect. Both are solid moves to begin with so they're easy to build into a team if it lacks bulk. Setting up shouldn't be difficult during the free turns BP gives you. Substitute can also save you, provided that you don't use it instead of attacking Cubone as it switches in.

Curse Pass ->
Once again, there's only one real pass target you need to keep in mind. +1 Doduo hits slightly harder than Cubone - it can OHKO Cubone ~30% of the time with spikes and Porygon ~25% without, so the rest of its rolls should be fairly similar to the ones posted above. While it can run HP grass for Rock types, HP ground isn't really an option because it drops attack and ruins OHKO chances. This means that there is nothing to cover Magnemite.

Counterplay is a bit harder to sum up in a post, but the same fundamentals apply with a few additional notes:

• Doduo can't be brought in on anything with thunder wave, which opens up a lot of denial options. Icy wind also disrupts the curse + agility chain.
• You can't be as focused on positioning for Doduo because the passer can hit hard, too. Pivoting to an offensive threat on the pass turn is a very useful play to force the boost onto something less threatening.
  • This makes the style of baton pass less formulaic, with more room for prediction on both sides.
• Doduo is limited in how large of a sweep it can make by double edge recoil. Thief in particular can leave it itemless and with only enough health for ~3 KOs (depending on how much damage was dealt by thief and how much DE damage it has to deal).