Forgive me for throwing in some replays at the end that didn’t make my argument the best and using your replays for a pro-ban perspective when I should have been more careful.
I think the argument for banning speed pass should be divorced from how banning it impacts the metagame and tackled separately. I’m defining “degenerate” speed pass teams that are entirely built around one/a few sweepers such as this example
Lead/speed passer | mag/support | support | speed passer/support/sweeper | sweeper | sweeper
An example is this replay I played against hclat in a random tour few years ago:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-733941
This is a pretty unoptimized version which has since been optimized further. I guarantee you that whatever half measures you adopt to stamp this and more complex ones like outlined in the op, it will return and we’ll be here again, asking for more half measures until we finally say speed pass should be banned. Why? Bc in a tier with power levels such as advance, where powerful sweepers such as wak/cune/yama/ursa/rachi/etc are balanced by their speed, the ev sacrifices needed to make them fast and, for most of them, their frailty, passing them speed is an extremely powerful strategy against fat teams. It removes faster revenge killing as there’s no choice scarf in advance, and drum/sd hits too hard to take their hits, meaning you need to either beat the passer w pressure/phazing or hit the recipient on the way in.
BP teams have been endlessly optimized to beat phasers (tox/coverage jask + mag, agiliroar zap) which is still interactive, but that means fatter teams eventually just lose bc they can’t output enough pressure to stop the pass without specifically having caveats for bp (see my fatter dug teams like having to slot perish song on cb gar to not lose to bp). This cycle has repeated throughout the history of adv, starting with full pass and adapting to the ruleset changes without fail. I will say that this has been true for all post gen 3 ou gens where bp was initially legal like gen 4/5, it just became broken more easily with more powerful tools available. Why don’t we finally put a nail in the coffin now? I don’t think adv’s offensive options are as such that non speed pass will truly break the tier, which is why I think the gen 4 bug arceus stuff is a dumb distraction. Let’s allow adv, literally the metagame that launched smogon, be able to litigate baton pass a little longer, it’s not hurting you.
I also think exploring particular quirks of replays where speed pass wins/losses is almost missing the point. The point is that degenerate speed pass can adapt to whatever whack a mole you throw at it.
So w that discussed, now we can talk about the argument fruhdazi mentioned, that preserving nondegenerate speed pass allows for more stylistic diversity in the tier by allowing faster offenses to fit other mons more easily with speed pass zap. I decided to take you up on looking for replays that better made my point and while I did find some, mostly replays that had spikeless offense beatdown SkarmDug like this
one, most of the aero losing replays like this
one,
two, and
three minus the garay oak one mentioned are either quite old or flawed in some way, either through play or bad luck. I saw a bunch of replays where aero cleaned up spikeless offense. I see your point that these teams in 2025 really need mence to punish especially aero (and really punish dug) structures. Additionally, after thinking more on how I personally struggled to build w mixed offense w zap, I definitely see your point about having it do something more dynamic w allowing it to speed pass, helping you survive different match ups, more so than a Zard for example. Point taken and I definitely underrepresented that view in my first post.
At the same time, do we as a player base have to resort to making caveats for keeping a particular style around or more diverse? Fruhdazi mentioned that the replay I showed in December of 24 from abr predated the Regi spikes explosion in adv and required brilliant piloting. this exploration of agility pass is largely in 2025, I don’t really remember seeing it used a lot in spikeless offense before this year when giraffe posted his dump and I watched a lot of fruhdazi replays. If we suspect speed pass and it ultimately is removed, I believe the many creative builders will find a way around skarm dug/aero with the options available in the future without just using mence, even though I know we’re getting limited on viable fliers. Or if we need to have mence on spikeless offense, is that such a bad thing? I think the opportunity cost of losing the degenerate speed pass parts of the tier is worth potentially limiting the options of spikeless offense.
I would like to talk about this in particular. As I said prior, it is a nice post, however I have some gripes with it myself. I get that the argument is about how degenerate speedpass works in the meta and not necessarily on how a ban would affect the meta but I believe its important to not become shortsighted and only talk abt degen speedpass, because its in my belief that ppl have been underrating the collateral purely because again they dont use offense.
I like that you used Jask as a example because I believe it has a lot of requisites to get banned, it has actually topped ladder beforehand and honestly while the tour results werent as great, they still were quite decent imo, considering that ABR won quite a bit with it. But I ask of you, you talked abt caveats, and how fat teams need to make concessions, tell me, how different is this from offense or even balances? I am of the certain belief that if Dug got banned, so many offenses or even balances would be a lot freed but is that even a good thing? Would a meta where offense and spikeless wish balances get exponentially better be a good meta? Those teams have limitations due to dug's place in the meta, but is it bad for them to be limited? Why do fatter teams have to be treated differently than spikeless offense for example? Asta for example has said he doesnt have problems w BP nowadays but he mostly uses spikeless offense these days, would it be fair of him to request a Dug ban for example, in the sense that itd make the style he uses the most much more better? I do understand the merits of the idea. Jask has hit 1900 and has gotten good tour results I must admit, but also I am not really much convinced by the replay, Hclat's squad is fishy (as most people would agree about Spikeless Balance, esp a MagDol route) and usually out of fashion, not only that, but its sandless. I am aware this is a "unoptimized" variant but this is a variant that has hit 1900.
My point turns to this: What truly is a caveat? Why do we have to treat fatter sandless squads different? Sure, you have a good point in saying that metagames need to rely on stability, but is sandless fat really the "stable" part of the meta, the part that you "rely on" ? Quite frankly, as it stands now, I would describe that to be Spikes Offense and outside of Cele spikes off which arent popular now and for good reasons, but even those, they dont seem to have much of a trouble w BP. I would also ask why are we being so sudden on this, why are we so sudden on eliminating AgiZap for Smeargle's sins? (Or Taunt+BP's sins). Also, as a side note, the Sand Attack complex ban is truly idiotic. It shows to me that apparently complex bans are ok as long as they fit the agenda and I find it absurdly funny that the ppl who dont play ADV and came to this thread to complain abt how theres 6 clauses of complex bans abt BP (practically its 3 but well) dont call out the inconsistency in the Tiering Admin's behaviour. Truly disgusting to me.
Anyways, back to topic. I also would say the second pillar of "reliance" on the meta doesnt have much of a problem w speedpass. Which is of course Tar SkarmBliss, I think most Tar SkarmBliss can beat up Jask teams, as long as they play their Ttar accurately. Unlike Zap, its way easier to spot Jask and play accordingly, again, these things are only being a problem because of the shadow unban that NO ONE WANTED. I am aware its not fault of one person or w/e, but really ask yourself if you are right that these strats would be overwhelming w a SmearBP+TauntBP ban, also ask yourself if any of those have topped ladder. I will concede on Jask, excellent point at bringing it up, no doubt. As I said before, it does have results, but for me the most uninteractive would likely be Zap Maw and from what I have heard from the player experimenting with it, it has been stuck at 1700. I am not sure if I am right, but I plead to ask if the pro ban side hasnt been too hasty, dont we think we need more time to really see the issue through? I do agree that its probable that DDPass and Jask need somewhat of a action, but really I would like more results of Zap Maw in particular to be swayed aside. I do agree with Goldmason who said it has been a disservice to ban Jask out of it being purely annoying, because we dont have more results to go off it. But I need to also see more DDPass results as well, even though the ones I have seen too far have me disgusted.
I will go back to the caveat point, again I would like to ask what is a caveat? Shouldnt fatter teams be able to adapt if they want, or simply run the risk? Just like how some offenses kinda risk themselves vs Dug teams for example, I have been guilty of this.
But as a builder, you must make concessions at times and no team can be perfect obviously. Also, who is to say that other BP forms arent just as cheesy and as dumb as Speedpass, by the metrics we have been using? I have seen CM BP Cele and SD BP Cele own many games vs Spikeless Offense due to how easily they can find boosts and their bulk, potentially ending games. Is the mirror of those also not incredibely dumb? While I do find CM BP to be a very mediocre strategy, one could argue that games going to who has the faster Roar recipient in the mirror is also cheesy and stupid, SD BP can also own the fuck out of most Spikeless Offense and even more bulky Spikes Tar Balances as well, but dont those strategies also have a myriad of flaws? I mean you could even argue that Sub BP Zap is toxic and cheesy of all things too, why make caveats for them? What makes them that different from Speedpass? They also can autowin games on the spot. I mean, a lot of things can, but they also have flaws, just like naked ZapWak, just like Jask. I gotta ask, do we remove them in turn to make our sandless and Tar spikes balance pillars better and have a meta that relies even more on balance, with BP gone for example, Bliss t1 into Zap would be viable, and the builder could be more free. But whats the cost? Limiting a flawed style (spikeless off) even further? Removing potentials for offense because we need to rely even more on balanceish or fat teams than we already do? Are we not being too hasty? What even is a caveat, maybe by banning Dug we wouldnt need BP's function in the tier, but would be banning Dug even be wise for example? Why make the caveat just so Spikeless Off can thrive better? Why then make the same caveat for Fat teams? I dont understand it, especially considering that Sandless teams, that sometimes even fish on their MUs quite a bit, are the ones suffering the most vs Jask. Its no different in my eyes than being MUd vs Cune Dug Weather Clear, or Rest Lax nonsense as those teams. Maybe I am hypocritical and biased, I must say I dont have the deep range you have as a player and I am quite linear and predictable, maybe I dont understand Fat and I shouldnt really talk. That said, I do think preserving honest statpass (and speedpass in conjuction) is important in this tier, I dont want offense to be fishy, and I think its important to preserve as many variety as possible, even with their limitations. I dont think the upsides of getting "Degenpass gone with absolute certainty" are worth it, personally. Especially when theres really nothing wrong with experimenting for changes, especially when again one of those changes was UNCALLED FOR.
I do think being reliant on Mence is a bad thing, yes, making styles one dimensional is ass. Imagine if Spikes Offense had to rely on Gengar to not autolose to spinners, having to build with 5 mons instead of 6 is incredibely terrible, or 4 mons instead of 5, I mean you would understand how, with the requirements to meet a good gameplan and defensive stability, needing to put 1 mon in guareented does limit your options quite a bit. U can see this issue especially if ur team needs trappers. Also, if Jask and only Jask is a issue, I really dont see why we cant ban Speed Boost, despite the multiple cries of the playerbase to do so, and the only reason 2023 suspect went DNB is that many DNB ppl wanted just Jask gone, again, whats a caveat exactly, and why should we bother to do these super simple bans? I mean to me, a Jask ban is easy to understand, so is a Mr Mime one. The hardest clause to understand is ABR's, even. I mean we could also just ban Taunt+BP, Roar+BP and Jask and make a caveat for Multipass to come back too for example. I am not sure Multipass without those 3 elements is even broken to begin with, or even "annoying" and "unfun" to play, this makes a caveat to buffing Spikeless Off, but again, why do that to buff Spikeless Off when it could possibly own up phazeless Spikes Off and make em go out of the meta? Why do this caveat for the sake of a playstyle? The same should be applied to the sandless fat in my opinion, if a option arises to punish such, there really shouldnt be this movement to ban it outright. I also dont think honest speedpass is that great at punishing em as many people said but I was strictly talking abt the degenpassing if I wasnt clear. The strenght of honest speedpass lies in the dynamism it gives you vs both fat and offense that only Mence otherwise can provide, but I have already went enough in-depth in both cord and here about this.
With all of this said, I just think we need to get more time. To me, many of these posts look hasty and inflating the problem. I do think yours is the most solid pro ban arguments I have been seeing, but I still feel theres somewhat of hastiness, are we sure that the abusers who you say are rightfully limited by EVs are even that difficult for fat teams if theres no Beagle to make the chain consistent? Again I ask, why do we treat these fatter teams differently than offense? Why do we treat the stuff that can beat those very harshly (BP in general) but we dont do the same for stuff that beats offense very harshly (Dug). Frankly, whats the difference? Is Dug more interactive than BP? To me, honestly, neither are much of a problem. Both have bunch of flaws and the best teams which most players rely upon (Spikes Off) dont exactly struggle w those, and many TarSkarmBliss dont either. I think the fact BP makes Sandless Bliss harder to load could be a good thing too. Its a matter of perspective, imo. But I once again will ask the pro ban side, what truly consists in a caveat for you?
