One of the saddest pokemon to exist. It has so many fun, great traits. Then you realize you're effectively running a glorified wad of bubble gum that is threatening as an unevolved Hatterene and you get really sad
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
It’s hardly sad when it was very viable earlier this gen in this very tier, and has had good success wherever it’s ended up overall.
it's been a while.
i figure the best way to come back is by detailing my opinions on the current meta:
i figure the best way to come back is by detailing my opinions on the current meta:
- things are a lot better since roaring moon got the boot. there are still problematic elements, but i could, in theory, live with this being the final version of the meta. that said, there's tiering action i would very much like to see, however unrealistic it may be
this guy is still a massive unaddressed problem and i refuse to let it slip into the background. all of its nominal answers fold like a cheap suit to some tera or other. it makes me sick
please get rid of this thing. waterpon is so restrictive in builder it isn't even funny anymore. if i find myself slotting in tera grass on one more defensive mon and getting murked by uturn anyway i'm going to write an article about how the loyal three did nothing wrong. i don't even care if the suspect song is that stupid dream song about the mask, i just want her gone
i'm not fully sure how i feel about dragonite. it's very very strong, it's got some dumb guess-my-set elements to it, and new tech has emerged that lets it beat a lot of its historical answers (not that there are many; this whole gen it's had only a handful of things that can consistently deal with it). but it seems like all of its new tech leans heavily on the surprise factor, and once a new dnite tech goes from niche to expected it becomes way easier to play around because it's a very linear mon. for example, i got completely dumpstered by that ghost tb/low kick set exactly one time and then never lost to it again, and i didn't have to change my team at all to address it, just the way i was playing. i would like to see a suspect on dnite, but i don't know how i would vote on it at this time
i don't actually think this is that problematic at the moment but i'm still mad about the last suspect
listen. i will die on this hill. i don't think gholdengo is a healthy presence here, i think it makes the hazard game incredibly lopsided even with geezing being a thing now, and i firmly believe things would be better if it were gone
can we have a suspect to put these things in uu? what are they still hanging around here for. they're the new meowscarada- tera blast: i could live with or without tera blast. i think it provides some nice elements and promotes diversity by giving coverage or good stab to stuff that needs it, but it's also objectively the defining factor in two bans at the absolute minimum and something like seven or eight at most and in principle it's kind of ridiculous that anything can get any coverage it wants. my biggest worry about suspecting it is that we'll get greedy and drop a bunch of brokens that no one asked for and the community will end up stockholm-syndromed into never getting rid of them. i would fully throw my weight behind a tera blast ban if and only if there's a clear plan of action laid out for what is happening after it, and only if that plan of action includes nothing being quickdropped besides regieleki. volc needs a test, gouging fire and roaring moon should be very low on the priority list, and espathra shouldn't even be considered
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My opinion is that nothing should be banned. Especially not offense tools. There's been a fairly large and constant outcry throughout the generation that pokemon A and B should be banned and it's honestly kinda mind boggling that this movement is just not dying. It should die because offense is the new balance... we shouldn't tier around the old guard anymore, in my opinion.it's been a while.
i figure the best way to come back is by detailing my opinions on the current meta:
so that's my take on the current meta. what do you guys think are the biggest problems right now?
- things are a lot better since roaring moon got the boot. there are still problematic elements, but i could, in theory, live with this being the final version of the meta. that said, there's tiering action i would very much like to see, however unrealistic it may be
- tera blast: i could live with or without tera blast. i think it provides some nice elements and promotes diversity by giving coverage or good stab to stuff that needs it, but it's also objectively the defining factor in two bans at the absolute minimum and something like seven or eight at most and in principle it's kind of ridiculous that anything can get any coverage it wants. my biggest worry about suspecting it is that we'll get greedy and drop a bunch of brokens that no one asked for and the community will end up stockholm-syndromed into never getting rid of them. i would fully throw my weight behind a tera blast ban if and only if there's a clear plan of action laid out for what is happening after it, and only if that plan of action includes nothing being quickdropped besides regieleki. volc needs a test, gouging fire and roaring moon should be very low on the priority list, and espathra shouldn't even be considered
Also, banning offense tools means ZapKingLu, and I don't want to play ZapKingLu.
ou players think zapkinglu is gonna spread in the tier just like McCarthy thought communism was spreading in america. No, zapkinglu isnt coming back because of offensive pokémon being banned, in fact we'd need way more meta changes that flip the tier upside down for it to come back like it did before. In fact i think the term zapkinglu should be banned forever so I dont see another post asking for no more bans because of a team comp that hasnt been around for like... a year?
Well you made my argument, ZapKingLu has the ability to trigger political debates in threads analyzing games for children
jk jk but on a more serious note, although the metagame has evolved quite a lot since Kyurem's 2nd suspect test, I believe most of the concerns cited by SupaGMoney and CTC remain valid, especially with a new tool in Galarian Weezing
the political comparison isnt the power of zapkinglu, its the power of me really liking politics and thinking theyre funny comparisons.
And to be honest I just don't see it. I already thought CTCs post was shadowboxing something that'd never happen, but right now we have so much good offense, and evolving ones at that. We ban kyurem and waterpon, dnite, deoxys, torn, even shit like ceru. why do you think zapkinglu would be able to rise above all of this to dominate the meta again, and how?
Fat balance is already learning to tech around those rediscovered breakers especially with OLT going on, same with stallcord. ZapKingLu is an euphemism that forces a Gambit / Weavile / Dragonite endgame throughout frustrating playstyles involving a lot of RNG, para/burn spam, and boots overload.
ok zapkinglu being an euphemism is just straight up bad communication at this point. theres gotta be a better term for teams that fall under this category, because i still disagree but its a more coherent argument than using a very specific core's name and saying thats gonna come back again yknow
personally i think when there's been a fairly large and constant outcry throughout the generation that pokemon a and b should be banned, there should probably at some point be a suspect of pokemon a and b
and the zapkinglu stuff really needs to stop. first off, fat balance being good isn't the apocalyptic nightmare scenario you've been told it is. if you find it "unengaging" or "boring", that's a fine opinion to have, but we're not trying to tier based on what's engaging, we're tiering based on what's balanced. if you want to argue that fat balance structures as a whole are broken, that's a very hefty claim to make and requires a lot more evidence to back up than anyone has actually given thus far
second off, the meta is still evolving and will inevitably evolve past any theoretical zapkinglu point. the reason we didn't see that progression happen both times that zapkinglu actually became a thing is because those metas were a handful of months long. it's like someone trying to predict the plot of a generic action-hero film but they've only ever seen movies up to the point in the third act where it looks like the villain wins. the data we have is incomplete and we can't draw confident conclusions from it
third off, you don't have to play zapkinglu if you don't want to. you can just like. load something else
This philosophy makes sense if you're tiering around balance archetypes. But this is not the generation where it is viable to do so, as other metagames e.g. ZU and PU, as well as the history of SV OU have shown.
In ZU I will be doing my best to get reqs and vote DNB on Floatzel - adjusted for power level, it shares a lot of similarities with Ogerpon-W - hits hard, can pivot, set up if needed etc. So I'd probably have a similar reaction were Ogerpon to have a suspect test here.
That doesn't mean i don't like longer games here and there, but I think we should leave them for older gens. For SV the ship has sailed when we decided to play with unrestricted tera and accept cheesy setup sweepers (even then, i voted DNB on Oricorio-F in ZU). Which I notice a pattern with - they tend to have good counterplay before hitting the field. Get rocks up, improve your hazard game, use knock off, get a good Gholdengo answer etc
No one's to say that ZapKingLu and fat balance would have stayed wholly dominant if dlc2 never dropped, but it still pops up on high ladder here and there. And that's not healthy long run, it's less healthy than playing with "broken" setup sweepers.
edit: I find it worrying that more than one person says (more or less) that the phrase "ZapKingLu" should be banned. Come on man how can you say this with a straight face, whether you're joking or not... this is a strong DNB argument that can't be just thrown away.
edit 2: and lurking around, and speaking of Oricorio-F in ZU, and Ogerpon-W in NatDex, the first Miraidon suspect I'm also noticing ban voters not coping well with certain, previous DNB results, across multiple metagames. This creates soft power dynamics in favour of the ban side. Which I'm not sure I find healthy either...
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greetings, real meta thoughts
The biggest value of this mon is that it doesn't need tera to make great progress, after Moon ban there is a lack of such things in OU. Flexible mon, Sash SD is the main set, but I can see LO in some teams like veil, Shadow Sneak is the worst move you can put on weak armor mon so I prefer CC/Taunt/Tera Blast. Bulk Up sets are unviable btw. I expect to see Ceruledge more in swiss because at least I will be using it.
With some new trends this mon is almost no longer running Power Whip, which is good because now it can't hit a lot of mons, Taunt was good when people didn't expect it, Trailblaze can be used, Horn Leech I wouldn't use. People will return to Power Whip at some point, but during this OLT I had no problems with oger.
I always knew people would complain about any mon that could run Tera Blast Fairy/Flying + Ground coverage, I see classic Espeed Tera Normal sets more often tho, basically you shouldn't have any problems with Tera Blast sets if your positioning is good enough.
SubTect put a lot of pressure in this meta, me and LT123VB AI realized that and that's how we both qualified. Flash Cannon>Protect can be a thing because some people are running Tera Ice on Glowking/Lu to deal with Kyurem. It will never be a banworthy mon, but the RNG factor is a big part of it's strength.
LO Modest has become a standard set due to some game-changing rolls, NP saw some usage during the tournament, but people generally don't use it anymore.
These guys did well and found some good teams for themselves, definitely don't deserve to be ignored.
Speaking of possible rises, Heatran has always had a niche in OU, spreading burns with Flame Body+Lava Plume, shutdowns fat stuff with Magma+Taunt, and ofc with Flash Fire it is untouchable for Moltres/Iron Moth. NP Torn is annoying if you know your opponent will bring Blimax balance or something like that, utility set also does a lot in most matchups I would say, you can try Taunt>Heat Wave last move. Nothing to say about Lokix, mon is really good, VoltTurn structures are what I like the most in this gen and are the best choice for low ladder.
Speaking of a potential survey, I don't think I want to have an opinion on anything. I like Wellspring as a utility mon with Spikes+Knock+U-turn, I appreciate it's value in some archetypes, and regardless of SD sets now I believe it's a pretty important mon for the tier. I can't imagine Enamorus without Tera Blast, even though it's uncompetitive move on other mons, and I wouldn't even consider anything else.
The biggest value of this mon is that it doesn't need tera to make great progress, after Moon ban there is a lack of such things in OU. Flexible mon, Sash SD is the main set, but I can see LO in some teams like veil, Shadow Sneak is the worst move you can put on weak armor mon so I prefer CC/Taunt/Tera Blast. Bulk Up sets are unviable btw. I expect to see Ceruledge more in swiss because at least I will be using it. With some new trends this mon is almost no longer running Power Whip, which is good because now it can't hit a lot of mons, Taunt was good when people didn't expect it, Trailblaze can be used, Horn Leech I wouldn't use. People will return to Power Whip at some point, but during this OLT I had no problems with oger. I always knew people would complain about any mon that could run Tera Blast Fairy/Flying + Ground coverage, I see classic Espeed Tera Normal sets more often tho, basically you shouldn't have any problems with Tera Blast sets if your positioning is good enough. SubTect put a lot of pressure in this meta, me and LT123VB AI realized that and that's how we both qualified. Flash Cannon>Protect can be a thing because some people are running Tera Ice on Glowking/Lu to deal with Kyurem. It will never be a banworthy mon, but the RNG factor is a big part of it's strength. LO Modest has become a standard set due to some game-changing rolls, NP saw some usage during the tournament, but people generally don't use it anymore. These guys did well and found some good teams for themselves, definitely don't deserve to be ignored. Speaking of possible rises, Heatran has always had a niche in OU, spreading burns with Flame Body+Lava Plume, shutdowns fat stuff with Magma+Taunt, and ofc with Flash Fire it is untouchable for Moltres/Iron Moth. NP Torn is annoying if you know your opponent will bring Blimax balance or something like that, utility set also does a lot in most matchups I would say, you can try Taunt>Heat Wave last move. Nothing to say about Lokix, mon is really good, VoltTurn structures are what I like the most in this gen and are the best choice for low ladder.Speaking of a potential survey, I don't think I want to have an opinion on anything. I like Wellspring as a utility mon with Spikes+Knock+U-turn, I appreciate it's value in some archetypes, and regardless of SD sets now I believe it's a pretty important mon for the tier. I can't imagine Enamorus without Tera Blast, even though it's uncompetitive move on other mons, and I wouldn't even consider anything else.
Maybe because people think its better to address the current metagame than whine about a playstyle that we are almost 2 years past at this point? Just a thought, but maybe its pointless fear mongering that only serves to take away from actual discussion about the metagame.
A good start would be to explain why you think Ogerpon-W is/isn’t broken in the current metagame.
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As someone unfamiliar with lower tier Metas beyond a passing perusal, there are some comparisons I think are not being acknowledged here. The ZU Floatzel traits you listed do apply to Ogerpon-W, but I feel this summary leaves out some very relevant additional points to their respective performances (Ogerpon is harder to punish with its no-contact moves, higher immediate power/faster set up with its Mask and SD, notable defensive utility with Water Absorb and higher bulk even relative to the respective tiers, and room for utility like Leech Seed or Spikes alongside Knock Off etc) that explain why Wellspring is a lot more restrictive on team building.
I also don't think I understand your argument in Paragraphs 1, 3, or 4, whether I'm misunderstanding what you are arguing or I disagree to such a degree that I don't see how you are arguing/supporting the premise. What does "this is not the generation where it is viable to [tier around balance archetypes]" refer to? Are you saying other Generations focus on Balance as a priority vs HO, BO, Semi-Stall, Stall, etc? And in what respect does the history of SV support this notion? Does the repeated Suspecting of Pokemon best classed as (Balance) Breakers like Ogerpon-H, Roaring Moon, Kyurem, Gliscor (it is useful to balance but equally prominent as a breaker or win-con like in DLC1 where it was banned), as well as current calls for things like Dragonite and Kingambit as very potent Win Conditions?
You then argue that "we should leave them [longer games] for older gens" because we voted to keep Tera in the tier and "accept cheesy setup sweepers" despite, again, Dragonite being on the hot seat and SEVERAL banned mons where set up was big on their Gameplan like Moon, Gouging Fire, Annihilape, Palafin, Volcarona, and depending on definition one might add Urshifu and Espathra. This also feels like a non-sequiter because the presence of setup Pokemon is pretty common on Balance teams with the idea of picking apart checks and facilitating a win condition later, vs offense playing proactive to constantly apply pressure with multiple mons for example. You go on to claim "they tend to have good counterplay before hitting the field" without really specifying which breakers this applies to, and it rings hollow for me because a lot of these in turn have counterplay that the player will reasonably account for (Hazard weakness will run boots and facilitate Chip/Multiple boosts to compensate the power, Knock Off absorbers will aim to not just sponge but generate momentum, Teams needing Hazard Removal obviously will know Ghold needs more than Tusk for you to deal with it). In what way is this not applicable to the Balance teams ("Use Taunt, run multiple removers, play aggressively")?
Finally, you state the fact that fat Balance "still pops up on high ladder here and there" is somehow "not healthy long run" compared to the existence of set-up sweepers that you don't endorse the bans on (quote marks around "Broken" obviously insinuating disagreement with the assessment). Why? What makes Fat Balance being a "here and there" playstyle (not even prominent by this description, just with a presence to acknowledge) an indication that something is unhealthy with the Metagame? I can't even debate this very well because I see a premise with no supporting arguments as presented, just an assumed truth that clearly is not shared by a majority of the discussion pool.
The call for the term "ZapKingLu" to be banned seems more like hyperbole because of the fact that it very poorly communicates what the actual argument is, which is an overcentralization around Fat Balance Hazard-Stack cores, which in turn makes the argument for or against the premise muddier to engage with. Additionally... no it's not a strong DNB argument that "can't just be thrown away" because whether or not Fat Balance is theoretically dominant in a subsequent Meta, Suspects are supposed to operate on the question of "is the current Meta where this element exists undesireable or reasonable"? Regardless of whether or not this becomes the result, Suspects are about the EXISTING Meta with that Pokemon present.
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I didn't think i needed to specify but I do not mean literally ban zapkinglu. I was making a joke based in the belief that i find the term useless when applied to a larger archetype and outdated when refering to the zapkinglu structure itself, used in constant fearmongering ways without explanation as to how that descent into zapkinglu-ness will happen beyond "trust me one more ban and its over", and positioned as if zapkinglu was the worst meta to happen and not just something kinda annoying that didnt have time to be analyzed due to the dlcs
I know this question might be a bit premature, but I’m asking out of curiosity. Since Pokémon Champions has been announced as the main platform for competitive play in the Pokémon World Championship, what path will Smogon take regarding the main OU metagame? Will you follow the Pokémon Champions guidelines instead of those from the main franchise, such as the upcoming 10th generation release? If so, could this change happen right after the release of Pokémon Champions?
Won’t make sense to say anything definitive until we know everything, but seems unlikely to me
As Finchinator said it’s unlikely. OU at the moment is based on core series gameplay that is directly involved with a mainline region including entirely new Pokemon or new forms, whereas Pokemon Champions isn’t. It’s most likely it gets its own format, however we can’t say definitively until there’s more information.
I don't fully know the Champions info which is out, but if I recall, if not connected to home you have to use like in game currency to unlock mons to use? Even without a monetary option, it still potentially timegates the ability to get tons of mons quickly. If that's the case, Showdown would continue to be unmatched in accessibility as one only needs internet and a phone to theoretically make any team which is legal in game.
i think a real discussion about this will only happen when we know more about champions + a new gen rolls in, especially if they change how pvp is done in the next mainlines. right now we know jack from shit and the gen is already settled on cart, i dont think we should worry about it
Prob just a skill issue on my part. Does anyone else find the meta far more difficult than it used to be. I know it’s currently OLT but the emphasis on offense feels like it highlights a lot of my mistakes. The council used to talk/care about threat saturation, but it seems like that problem was never really solved? It’s very hard to build anything that consistently performs right now. So many threats have 3-5 viable sets that you need to account for or just hope you don’t run into.
atp “zapkinglu” needs to be a banned term on the forum lmao
I’ve been using Rotom-Heat recently. It notably resists both Kyurem’s Earth Power and Ice moves. If you can keep rocks off/boots, it can be pretty nice. Overheat hits mad hard too.
I’ve been using Rotom-Heat recently. It notably resists both Kyurem’s Earth Power and Ice moves. If you can keep rocks off/boots, it can be pretty nice. Overheat hits mad hard too.
The ban of Roaring Moon has let a lot of less honest cheesers like Manaphy, Ceruledge, Hoopa-U and the like getting fully unleashed, while giving teams one less soft check to other miscellaneous threats like Gambit, Ghold, and Ogerpon-W. The amount of offense seems to have only increased with its ban, which makes sense since Roaring Moon was a game ending piece against offensive structures. It was strong against balance as well, but I feel that the new threats that have risen in its place are more difficult for these more defensive structures to handle compared to Moon.
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