I think the sleep ban, while controversial, has aged well and rid the metagame of an issue that otherwise could have lingered.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Whoops I forgot/didn't realize sleep clause counted as modding lol.
My problem with the sleep ban is less that it was banned (though I do still wish it was unbanned) and more about how it actually came about. The problem for me is the fact that it was banned by council vote. I feel like as big of a deal as a full sleep ban was it should have been a suspect. It doesn't make sense to argue it as being a quick ban either as Darkrai had already existed for over a month in OU and Iron Valiant had access to Hypnosis long before that. I would be less upset if sleep had been suspected tested instead of just voted on by the council. It isn't like there was no support for a suspect test either, so I don't get why they did it that way.
i think council vote was the correct decision because everything else would be a waste of time or just not how things should work. sleep clause shouldnt exist and doesnt deserve a suspect thread where people can argue for its existence, and i find it hard to see a world where unrestricted sleep isnt insanely broken and meta warping
What like the 2 Kyurem suspects with the second one having literal cheaters that caused Kyurem to be banned for 2 weeks? How is that not a waste of time while a sleep suspect would be? What is wrong with wanting to defend something you don't believe is broken? Sleep clearly wasn't broken enough to be quickbanned when Darkrai fell to OU so why was a suspect not warranted? Idk I just think not allowing the community to vote on this was a mistake.
The fact sleep had to have a mod not available on cart is testament alone to how broken it was. You really don't need a test to find out something that warranted changing the game mechanics with its restriction removed would be ridiculous.
That being said; I have to ask whether the extended game timer should even be allowed under those very same circumstances... the sim is essentially modding out the 20 minute timer 6v6 on cart is forced to use (which there isn't a way around it) and the animations themselves contributing to it is also difficult to replicate without some weird timer skip specification end of each turn calculated off how long an animation plays. Having the timer means the sleep mod wasn't as unique and removing the sleep mod sets precedent on how 'accurate' the sim has to be. It sucks dick so frankly not complaining but wondering where the line in the sand is precisely.
??? suspecting a controversial pokemon is not a waste of time, even if the answer is dnb? also were we supposed to know that the second one was gonna have a scandal with our clairvoyance powers and thus not do it in the first place or something.
youre comparing one pokemon thats polarizing (extremely common thing to happen in a meta) to a status so broken we have never even thought of playing it without a disgusting nerfing clause for 20+ years. kyurem is not even the most polarizing pokemon that ou had, let alone anything close in brokenness to unrestricted sleep
The friendly match option has 60 minute timers. If you watch the Draft League videos, you'll see the timers are 60 minutes. I don't know why people still think it's only 20
posting before olt cycle is over so its seen as less reactionary but with the tera blast policy post not getting traction I think its time we consider looking into dnite. I think this is pretty self explanatory? The mon just has too many sets to account for in builder. Unlike something like gambit with a similar ish amount of sets, dnites counterplay varies quite drastically depending on its utility, tera and attacks. While on preview you can super sleuth it down to a few options theres still a lot of variables that can cause it to run away with games or force an insane amount of progress even if you don't exactly missplay into it. You can throw the "4mss" argument at this sure but it can work to dnites benefit quite often with trying to predict utility options like roost or encore and dropping to something else. You can probably sit in the OLT room and spectate for like an hour and come out with 3 or 4 replays at least of dnite cheesing through otherwise lost games by outright winning or forcing progress. And honestly, in builder it just feels like youre accepting to lose to certain sets a lot because committing tools for every variation is just unrealistic in this tier. just wanted to bring this up since its a aspect of the tier I currently dont find fun and is probably a more productive conversation post OLT into SCL than whatever this sleep cause convo is.
I was not saying that I think suspecting Kyurem was actually a waste of time. I was saying that not suspecting sleep but suspecting Kyurem twice was hypocritical.
the benefit to unbanning sleep is that pincurchin stonks go up
I don't actually see any legit reason to bring it back though, there's no other status that guarantees you free turns should you be able to put something to sleep
the only reason to bring it back would be if you really missed Amoonguss or wanted Torkoal to be more viable for some reason but like yaahh noo
I don't actually see any legit reason to bring it back though, there's no other status that guarantees you free turns should you be able to put something to sleep
the only reason to bring it back would be if you really missed Amoonguss or wanted Torkoal to be more viable for some reason but like yaahh noo
Not every element should be a suspect, sleep not being a suspect was also very deliberate, read the end of this post for why. If a sleep suspect were to happen it would be whether to have sleep moves completely unrestricted or restricted though, and i doubt sleep with sleep clause removed from the tier would ever be chosen by the playerbase. Kyurem isnt broken at all imo but suspecting Kyurem twice was fine because it was very controversial during both tests for different things in metagames that were very different, it realistically should've been banned even because the cheaters were all people who could easily get reqs in an hour or two and were definitely qualified to vote.
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I believe Hisuian Samurott has a ton of set potential that a lot of people have yet to truly unpack. Given the raw utility of its defensive typing and options like Taunt/Encore, there's a lot of ways that you can enable Hisuian Samurott itself to click Ceaseless Edge more freely while also providing a ton of utility to your team. I talk about why Hisuian Samurott is underutilized in my latest YouTube video!
What do you think of Hisuian Samurott in the current metagame? What are your favorite sets?
What do you think of Hisuian Samurott in the current metagame? What are your favorite sets?
^ Creativity is cool and I am all for it. That being said, Scarf Samurott is so insanely good and above all other sets, that I need good reasons to not use that set (for example, a team full of Booster Energies or Rain, in which there will be at least one Swift Swimmer) when I use Samurott in first place.
Scarf Samurott fits naturally on all kind of teams, especially balanced ones. Meanwhile with other sets you need to build a team around them to use them efficiently.
Scarf= Team player, like Boots Tusk, Glowking, Corviknight, Pult, etc.
Non Scarf= One of or The feauture of a team. Think of Iron Thorns, Umbreon, Snorlax, Booster Tusk, Band Slither Wing, etc. Which is still fine, but obviously not an automathic slap on a team.
Scarf Samurott fits naturally on all kind of teams, especially balanced ones. Meanwhile with other sets you need to build a team around them to use them efficiently.
Scarf= Team player, like Boots Tusk, Glowking, Corviknight, Pult, etc.
Non Scarf= One of or The feauture of a team. Think of Iron Thorns, Umbreon, Snorlax, Booster Tusk, Band Slither Wing, etc. Which is still fine, but obviously not an automathic slap on a team.
AV Hamurott is one of my favourite hazard setters in any metagame. It is just so reliable, not just for setting hazards but is also able to switch into a multitude of threats midgame and threaten them out while still offering its usual utility.
I would like to echo the sentiment of the terapagos unban comments. In this case it would need to be a complex unban because the stellar form would be broken. Policy would stop this from happening in reality, but given how the stellar form plays like a different guy, and is the sole reason it was originally pushed into Ubers territory, I feel like a special exception could be made, especially if pagos would have a positive effect on the metagame like I hope it might
While drawing parallels with NatDex has its clear downsides, I would forsee pagos doing a similar spin support/emergency panic button role in SVOU, with access to moves like dark pulse, it would be able to spin better on not only ghold, but other relevant blockers like pech (or cha). And even if we start to see more spdef investment on spin blockers as a result, this only helps tusk deal with those same blockers. Either way, it would be a positive change in dealing with hazards
Additionally, with such wide type coverage + access to toxic/roar as well, it would act as a great anti-offense tool for players good enough to preserve tera shell
The threat of the meteor beam/setup sets that got it banned originally would be a non-factor outside possibly having a niche on veil teams, so I don't think it's really worth bringing up in this case
Finally (and this is more of a personal reason) I would like to explore terapagos on a stall team with wish support to keep tera shell in tact, spin, set rocks to free up slots on blissey for 2 attacks or heal bell potentially. Pagos could roar out threats while continually replenishing tera shell through cleric support, and also dark pulse as the last move maybe for ghosts it sounds really fun to use
As for more realistic changes, I am finding the current meta to be playable in its current state. Wellspring can sometimes feel overwhelming, but often when I look back on my replays, I realise I just needed to be more proactive in dealing with it, because woger is one of the worst mons to give a free turn to
If I had free reign though, just to see how the meta would develop without so much instant offense enabled, I would look at banning booster as an item. This has had much less thought put into it than the pagos discussion, but it can be summed up as just an attempt to slow down the meta (and because I hate iron moth haha)
I agree with unbanning just the Terastal form and leaving Stellar banned. It'd be the ultimate switch in to all the broken physical threats like Kingambit, Dragonite and Ogerpon. The Council could easily do a complex situation for Terapagos where it can't Terastallize
In addition to the policy aspect I think it's important to keep in mind that the '(besides "no modding")' part of the question would probably disqualify allowing terapagos-terastal but banning it from terastalizing. I'm not sure exactly what would need to go on in showdown behind the scenes to make only one specific pokemon unable to tera, but either way it doesn't seem like something that could be possible to enforce on cartridge.
what does the sleep clause have to do with pincurchin?
pincurchin does not have any sleep inducing moves.
it's perfectly possible to enforce on cartridge. you just say that no one is allowed to click the tera button as terapagos. it's not modding any more than mega rayquaza clause is. modding would be something like "terapagos has regular tera types like everything else and when it clicks the tera button it does the same thing every other mon does" vs what's happening here, which is a simple "you can't click the button"
pincurchin is the only existing mon that gets electric surge, which prevents sleep
Let's stop this Terapagos Stellar conversation: there was already a whole PR thread about it two years ago, which you can find here. While I agree that it would likely be balanced for the tier, it just simply isn't feasible under our tiering guidelines, and thus we must say goodbye to our turtly friend until a future generation.
Moving on, how does everyone feel about Heatran in the current metagame? It's been rising in usage lately, but do yall think this is a passing trend? Or a new member of OU?
Moving on, how does everyone feel about Heatran in the current metagame? It's been rising in usage lately, but do yall think this is a passing trend? Or a new member of OU?
Heatran is in a really nice place atm. Galarian Weezing's and Corviknight's rise in usage has been a net positive for heatran, since its a rocker that really messes with the most common defoggers. its own lack of longevity can be pretty annoying(particularly against special attackers like gholdengo and dragapult), but it def has ways around these issues. im pretty on the fence between lava plume and magma storm but i think both have their applications. just dont miss and it'll be end up alright vs a glowking. Spdef Mixed Phys def and offensive are all solid btw
Correct me if I'm wrong, which I may be, but would a complex ban that simply disallows clicking tera be completely separate from tiering it differently - it appears that they are different processes?
Looking at the thread it is clear that terapagos cannot be tiered separately and that is the outcome of policy - no point beating a dead horse. Meanwhile a complex ban is not a tiering/policy issue and instead a balance issue and instead the outcome of a potential council vote?
If it were simply a tiering issue then of course conversation about it is done and dusted however I think it may be overlooked that it is instead just a ban like Mega Rayquaza.
I think it would be a great addition to the tier but yeah its not dropping. The issue is people who’s favorite tier is policy debate will whine if we prioritize the actual game over their policy.
Cool to see heatran making a comeback! I think it has a lot of good traits in the current meta that are beginning to be discovered. Its a very reliable SR user since pretty much every removal option is scared out by it or cannot comfortably switch in. In addition its ability to check other big threats like ghold and darkrai makes it well worth the team slot and worthy of being OU proper imo.
I believe what’s been going on with Samu and why people overlook it atm is a lot of the popular offenses, BOs, and Balances are utilizing other spikers instead of Samu. Spikes Wellspring and Ting-Lu are its biggest competitors, fulfilling similar offensive/defensive niches. The other major reason people started downplaying Samu is the rise of G-Weez who was a Defogger that could 1v1 Samu. Kyurem being spammed in OLT also doesn’t help it, given Kyurem exploits its two biggest weaknesses (lackluster speed and middling special bulk without AV).
Still, Samu is one innovation away from humbling those that doubted it. Some new angles that could be taken are SD Lum Berry to punish G-Weez and Mola for fishing for burns or Mixed Samu with Surf to match up better into Weez/Corv while dealing huge dmg to Lando/Tusk. Plus Samu can find itself pairing with rising star Heatran who forms a hazard stacking core, almost being a hard G-Weez counter while threatening Corv hugely.
Kinda funny that most of the Gen 8 staples are still kicking in OU. Tran pretty nice rn. Its main selling points is breaking Balance (assuming no Mola) and being a SR setter that threatens our hazard control options, allowing hazards to be preserved for greater periods. Its not splashable though, being a Steel type that loses to Val/Enam and Earth Power Kyurem can be tough to justify. But with continued optimization of Tran builds to cover those MUs, Tran could eventually find itself in OU.