Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

This comes off as you hating or having something against fat balance rather than there being anything wrong with the style tbh. It’s meant to be a slow paced style that plays a long game. There’s many tools in the tier to break them and good skill and tactics to punish overt passivity or safe plays.



None of these are “absolutely heinious”. They help anchor bulkier teams and keep them functioning well, with great reliability and providing stability. There is ample counterplay to all of them.

It’s a lot harder for a defensive pokemon to be overbearing compared to offensive threats, that’s why they’re so often the target of action.

The thing is that balance is not this holy playstyle that has to be preserved at all costs in order to shift tiering action towards other mons.

I can name a lot of ample counterplay options to Volcarona, Gouging Fire, and Roaring Moon, mons I would be happy to see unbanned. However, I'm sure the ban side will throw the same arguments that have been widely accepted for years now (e.g. you're using shitmons? these things strain the team builder?). I would honestly like to see better arguments since we shouldn't shut down interesting tiering ideas with low effort posts imo.

Offensive tools aren't the boogeyman that everyone is pointing to, hence why I'm generally against banning them. We're not dealing with Mega Salamence or Bloodmoon Ursaluna here. Archaludon should stay banned too since I saw it mentioned earlier, same with Ape.

ZapKingLu, rocky helmet spam, and cheese like grassy seed and aurora veil can also be argued to be "broken". The culture we have here far favours testing offense threats, however. It makes you think... what are the ulterior motives behind this?

 

[ILoveGarchom]

The thing is that balance is not this holy playstyle that has to be preserved at all costs in order to shift tiering action towards other mons.

I can name a lot of ample counterplay options to Volcarona, Gouging Fire, and Roaring Moon, mons I would be happy to see unbanned. However, I'm sure the ban side will throw the same arguments that have been widely accepted for years now (e.g. you're using shitmons? these things strain the team builder?). I would honestly like to see better arguments since we shouldn't shut down interesting tiering ideas with low effort posts imo.

Offensive tools aren't the boogeyman that everyone is pointing to, hence why I'm generally against banning them. We're not dealing with Mega Salamence or Bloodmoon Ursaluna here. Archaludon should stay banned too since I saw it mentioned earlier, same with Ape.

ZapKingLu, rocky helmet spam, and cheese like grassy seed and aurora veil can also be argued to be "broken". The culture we have here far favours testing offense threats, however. It makes you think... what are the ulterior motives behind this?

Ok so I am just someone who likes to read this thread but oh my god, what has zapkinglu done to you :sob: u mention it in every post

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

Ok so I am just someone who likes to read this thread but oh my god, what has zapkinglu done to you :sob: u mention it in every post

I don't find it a healthy playstyle or status quo, and that was what it was back in DLC1. I'm a bit of a fat balance hater since I find it can prolong games unnecessarily and can tech many ways to cheese the opponent (e.g. zapdos' static).

I find it interesting that other people are specifically jumping on this point whenever it gets mentioned as a dnb argument. A few examples can be found down below.

Seriously bro can we blacklist this phrase from discussion. It’s been 2 years since this was an actually common archetype and despite people “warning” it will come back after every ban it never does.

ou players think zapkinglu is gonna spread in the tier just like McCarthy thought communism was spreading in america.

atp “zapkinglu” needs to be a banned term on the forum lmao

I'm sorry but everytime I see this shit I start to see red. It's like a boogie man that was so overblown and traumatized people despite it lasting like 3 seconds. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care. Overblown, overhyped, and a basis shakier than a grandma on her last legs. I'd sacrifice Ogerpon on the alter and face a thousand Tinglu's before I'd let that smug mask wearing bastard ruin my life. Which even then, there's so many counters to Tinglu structures that playing around them can become easier than not.

 

[UltraSword]

I don't find it a healthy playstyle or status quo, and that was what it was back in DLC1. I'm a bit of a fat balance hater since I find it can prolong games unnecessarily and can tech many ways to cheese the opponent (e.g. zapdos' static).

I find it interesting that other people are specifically jumping on this point whenever it gets mentioned as a dnb argument. A few examples can be found down below.

The reason people are jumping on the ZapKingLu parts of these arguments is because it is no longer relevant in this metagame. ZapKingLu is a relic of a previous metagame and we now have a lot of pokemon that can beat this playstyle. We were working with a more limited pokedex back during DLC1 so we didn't have the pokemon to handle ZapKingLu like we do now. I agree with many of these other people that ZapKingLu is a pointless argument to make for bans this metagame. None of the other bans caused its resurgence and it didn't come back during the 2 weeks Kyurem was gone so can we please stop discussing it?

 

[pika pal]

I don't find it a healthy playstyle or status quo, and that was what it was back in DLC1. I'm a bit of a fat balance hater since I find it can prolong games unnecessarily and can tech many ways to cheese the opponent (e.g. zapdos' static).

I find it interesting that other people are specifically jumping on this point whenever it gets mentioned as a dnb argument. A few examples can be found down below.

People jump on it because as my previous reply to your last post touched on, it doesn't forward the discussion, the core it is named after hasn't been relevant for months, and the greater idea it represents in a non-literal manner has not demonstrated substantially problematic results in the tier. This also feels incredibly hypocritical given the following

The thing is that balance is not this holy playstyle that has to be preserved at all costs in order to shift tiering action towards other mons.

I can name a lot of ample counterplay options to Volcarona, Gouging Fire, and Roaring Moon, mons I would be happy to see unbanned. However, I'm sure the ban side will throw the same arguments that have been widely accepted for years now (e.g. you're using shitmons? these things strain the team builder?). I would honestly like to see better arguments since we shouldn't shut down interesting tiering ideas with low effort posts imo.

Offensive tools aren't the boogeyman that everyone is pointing to, hence why I'm generally against banning them. We're not dealing with Mega Salamence or Bloodmoon Ursaluna here. Archaludon should stay banned too since I saw it mentioned earlier, same with Ape.

ZapKingLu, rocky helmet spam, and cheese like grassy seed and aurora veil can also be argued to be "broken". The culture we have here far favours testing offense threats, however. It makes you think... what are the ulterior motives behind this?

When I could say the same about Fat Balance in your and the previous (also Burmy PFP) user's post about needing Fat Breakers. Entering a thread and accusing people of having "ulterior motives" because they don't agree with your tiering proposals is something I would accuse of rage-baiting in a lot of other contexts. You state that many of these breakers have ample counterplay but don't proceed to share it under the premise it would be dismissed anyway; if you well and truly believe that these mons would be healthy and the counterplay is fair game, that's all the more reason you should share it and reasonably argue your point, rather than present a dismissive position that can be ignored out of hand.


Here's a proposal I'd consider for why Attackers are so often Suspect subjects: the more Pokemon that are viable in a tier, the easier it is for offensive Pokemon to be busted and the harder it is for defensive/fat Pokemon to be overcentralizing. A wider threat pool leads to a thinner spread on defensive Pokemon and soft-checks that can be overwhelmed rather than hard-stopping prominent Pokemon (Moltres with Flame Body is moderately bulky at best but is usually reliable into any Contact Attacker neutrally, vs Amoongus hard-stopping Ogerpon-W but losing really bad to Kyurem or Ghold). Attackers generally just have to be good neutrally since defenses don't power-creep nearly as fast as offenses, and thus a wider pool of more attackers doesn't inhibit their ability to make progress because it remains winning 1 v 1-2 or 3 vs Defensive mons needing to play a 6 v 6 (or 6 v The Meta depending on hyperbole).

Offensive Pokemon will typically become unhealthy when they too easily make progress without skill expression, while unhealthy Defensive Pokemon have the much harder task of not requiring skill to prevent progress (for an extreme case, Mega Sableye in ORAS was the one example that comes to mind since Recover and Magic Bounce made passive damage stacking against its team a nightmare and its bulk hard to cut through alongside WoW). Ways to make progress (Knock Off, Wider Hazard Dist, High BP move availability, Boosting Field effects like half the Weather and Terrains) are more commonly introduced than ways to prevent it (Recovery, Regenerator distribution, and Boots).

 

[658Greninja]

I never understood the fearmongering of Balance teams. Just because you don’t like slower games doesn’t mean they’re unhealthy. As a spectator, slower games can be as hype as fast ones due to the tension that builds up and how one good/bad turn can change the whole dynamic of the match. A good example is ABR vs Tele, a 1000+ turn game with tense moments that generated a ton of hype among spectators.

If anything, Stall’s worst matchup is Balance because they can play the long game while having the breaking power to punish passive playing hard. So if you hate Stall, then you’d want Balance teams to be good or at the very least, viable. Fortunately as seen with OLT, Balance is still strong despite the meta favoring offense. Its a good sign in a meta when several archetypes are viable, but work still needs to be done imo.

Instead of your DNB arguments being “me no like zapkinglu” they should be “this pokemon has consistent counterplay”

Especially when it comes to Ogerpon.


I don’t have an issue with people wanting Wellspring to stay, but complaining that a Wellspring ban would bring an era of fat team spam is ridiculous. Anti-Balance/Fat measures are plentiful in SV OU.

Hazards + Knock
Darkrai
Specs Bolt
Future Sight + Tusk/Zama
Literally every Kyurem set
Proto Atk Tusk
Proto Atk Treads
Boots Wake and Specs Wake under Sun
Primarina
Hatterene
Scarf Trick Ghold
Taunt Knock Torn/NP Torn
Deoxys-S
Hydrapple
Heatran
SD Gliscor
Hex Pult/CB Pult
Samurott
Mixed Valiant or CM with Tbolt and Sball/Tblast Ground
Specs Crown
BU Taunt Ceru
Curse/ID Garg
Latios
CM Enamorus
Hoopa-U
Ursaluna

I could go on. The only reason people jump to protect their senpai Ogerpon-Wellspring is because of how braindead it is at breaking. Every flaw a breaker could have is minimized with Wellspring.

-110 speed is stupidly good for a breaker and can always patch that up with Trailblaze to ruin Offense.

-Its bulk isn’t even that bad and is more than enough to survive Zama’s non-LO CC and Bolt’s Thunderclap after rocks. Plus it can always Tera for that +1 SpD boost to thwart attempts to rkill it from Darkrai, non-CB Pult, booster Moth, Torn, fast Moonblasters (Val/Scarf Enam), Deo, etc. Water/Grass grants it key switch-in opportunities with only 3 weaknesses.

-Synthesis and Horn Leech patch up its weakness to getting worn down.

-Wellspring’s set diversity is overlooked in conversations about banning/not banning it and it’s all because Water-type Ivy Cudgel is borderline broken. Every Water resist is either deathly afraid of it, or dies to Play Rough/Knock Off, or is uncommon. Which means Wellspring only needs two attacking slots. So now you can customize it for whatever the fuck you want. It has a billion status moves. You could be facing U-Turn, Swords Dance, Knock Off, Encore, Taunt, Synthesis, Play Rough for all you know. It can afford to run Adamant or bulk investment because Wellspring is fast and strong enough to do so. You could go into your Pecha or Dnite, but uh oh, you let it get Spikes for free. It’s enough that a Pokemon is broken for simply being difficult to check/difficult to revenge kill, but its more of a problem when that breaker can still force progress even if you have a dedicated check. Its a bigger problem when that offensive threat can just heal itself up, offsetting any chip damage done to it. This is a pattern we’ve seen with the late Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon, Dnite is also displaying this but it doesn’t have to same immediate breaking as GFire/Moon/Wellspring.

Now yes, other offensive threats display a similar level of set diversity such as Valiant, Zama, Ghold, and the aforementioned Dnite, but Wellspring doesn’t need to pick and choose its matchups like them. Because even if you don’t pick Play Rough to snipe the Dragons, none of them besides Hydrapple take kindly to Knock Off, or even raw Ivy Cudgels in the case of Raging Bolt. Even in offense heavy matchups, Wellspring can trade with Tera.

TL;DR Wellspring is too good at progress making while being difficult to actually handle offensively due to factors like Tera, its typing, and its 110 speed tier. Its a step above high-caliber breakers like Kyurem which have significant weaknesses that keep them in check.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

People jump on it because as my previous reply to your last post touched on, it doesn't forward the discussion, the core it is named after hasn't been relevant for months, and the greater idea it represents in a non-literal manner has not demonstrated substantially problematic results in the tier. This also feels incredibly hypocritical given the following

When I could say the same about Fat Balance in your and the previous (also Burmy PFP) user's post about needing Fat Breakers. Entering a thread and accusing people of having "ulterior motives" because they don't agree with your tiering proposals is something I would accuse of rage-baiting in a lot of other contexts. You state that many of these breakers have ample counterplay but don't proceed to share it under the premise it would be dismissed anyway; if you well and truly believe that these mons would be healthy and the counterplay is fair game, that's all the more reason you should share it and reasonably argue your point, rather than present a dismissive position that can be ignored out of hand.


Here's a proposal I'd consider for why Attackers are so often Suspect subjects: the more Pokemon that are viable in a tier, the easier it is for offensive Pokemon to be busted and the harder it is for defensive/fat Pokemon to be overcentralizing. A wider threat pool leads to a thinner spread on defensive Pokemon and soft-checks that can be overwhelmed rather than hard-stopping prominent Pokemon (Moltres with Flame Body is moderately bulky at best but is usually reliable into any Contact Attacker neutrally, vs Amoongus hard-stopping Ogerpon-W but losing really bad to Kyurem or Ghold). Attackers generally just have to be good neutrally since defenses don't power-creep nearly as fast as offenses, and thus a wider pool of more attackers doesn't inhibit their ability to make progress because it remains winning 1 v 1-2 or 3 vs Defensive mons needing to play a 6 v 6 (or 6 v The Meta depending on hyperbole).

Offensive Pokemon will typically become unhealthy when they too easily make progress without skill expression, while unhealthy Defensive Pokemon have the much harder task of not requiring skill to prevent progress (for an extreme case, Mega Sableye in ORAS was the one example that comes to mind since Recover and Magic Bounce made passive damage stacking against its team a nightmare and its bulk hard to cut through alongside WoW). Ways to make progress (Knock Off, Wider Hazard Dist, High BP move availability, Boosting Field effects like half the Weather and Terrains) are more commonly introduced than ways to prevent it (Recovery, Regenerator distribution, and Boots).

To reiterate, I didn't mean to hit a conspiratorial undertone, though looking back on it the last line might have been a bit over the top.

However, at the end of the day I would always prefer to play shorter games, up to 30-40 turns with a longer one here and there. But a ZapKingLu or fat balance infested metagame would obviously exceed such a median value, even with the recovery PP being cut, since HDB, full paralysis and possibly halved attack stats will do a lot of the heavy work. This is one of the reasons why I consider Knock Off pretty much the undisputed best move in the game sans the banned ones, removing boots is literally sacred - but even then I consider Knock Off to be far more effective against offensive tools e.g. Dragonite and Specs RBolt. All of these mons heavily depend on their item to perform at their best.

Since you mentioned Ogerpon-W, I can clearly see how it does a great job against those degenerate cheesy play styles. It hates Choice Band Grassy Glide, but otherwise it does well against Grassy Terrain, Veil, and Rocky Helmet spam cheesy strategies. if someone still loads original ZapKingLu structures you can tera spam cudgel since it's a no contact move. However Ogerpon-W itself has a lot of counterplay - again with the static / flame body into other moves, thunder wave, random wisps, proactive playing and not letting it set up, Dragonite, scouting for Encore, Spikes and other utility moves, taking advantage of its hazard weaknesses, and Rocky Helmet to punish U-turns.

All this suggests Ogerpon-W is a healthy offensive tool for the metagame.

I agree that attackers should get suspected and banned more often than other archetypes, but the factor is like ten to one (last suspectees were like gliscor and even that thing had a SD tera normal facade thing) which isn't what I would call healthy. Of course attackers have a defensive part since that's what lets them set up but maybe the factor should be two or three to one.

 

[Moyashi]

However, at the end of the day I would always prefer to play shorter games, up to 30-40 turns with a longer one here and there. But a ZapKingLu or fat balance infested metagame would obviously exceed such a median value, even with the recovery PP being cut, since HDB, full paralysis and possibly halved attack stats will do a lot of the heavy work.

You’re solidly ignoring the fact that this boogeyman of a team style hasn’t been relevant in some time, even when Kyurem was briefly banned it wasn’t there. Even if the metagame trended towards fat teams, there are no shortage of ways to play around it. Disliking longer games does not make the team style itself unhealthy or cheesy. Cheesy refers to styles like Psyspam or Webs which generally rely on a very rigid play routine and strategy that tends to be all in or bust, and match up fishy.

However Ogerpon-W itself has a lot of counterplay - again with the static / flame body into other moves, thunder wave, random wisps, proactive playing and not letting it set up, Dragonite, scouting for Encore, Spikes and other utility moves, taking advantage of its hazard weaknesses, and Rocky Helmet to punish U-turns.

Other than Dragapult and Darkrai; there are not faster status move users and there are not slower pokemon able to eat +2 cudgels and get off a status. Zapdos has to be in pristine shape and still straws all its health to do so (and just dies to Tera cudgels). Hazards are effective into some sets but those running recovery tools are much less bothered by them. Also you’re not “scouting” for spikes. Allowing it to get up Spikes is the worst idea.

I agree that attackers should get suspected and banned more often than other archetypes, but the factor is like ten to one (last suspectees were like gliscor and even that thing had a SD tera normal facade thing) which isn't what I would call healthy. Of course attackers have a defensive part since that's what lets them set up but maybe the factor should be two or three to one.

There is no offense to defense threat ban ratio or quota that needs to be filled. What’s broken or unhealthy is what matters when discussing things to act on, and it’s just a fact that offensive threats are far more often unbalanced compared to defensive threats.

 

[658Greninja]

Since you mentioned Ogerpon-W, I can clearly see how it does a great job against those degenerate cheesy play styles. It hates Choice Band Grassy Glide, but otherwise it does well against Grassy Terrain, Veil, and Rocky Helmet spam cheesy strategies. if someone still loads original ZapKingLu structures you can tera spam cudgel since it's a no contact move. However Ogerpon-W itself has a lot of counterplay - again with the static / flame body into other moves, thunder wave, random wisps, proactive playing and not letting it set up, Dragonite, scouting for Encore, Spikes and other utility moves, taking advantage of its hazard weaknesses, and Rocky Helmet to punish U-turns.

All this suggests Ogerpon-W is a healthy offensive tool for the metagame.

Let’s discuss this counterplay.

-Pivoting Zapdos/Moltres into Wellspring is incredibly risky as they both despise Knock Off. +2 Ivy Cudgel with Tera one-shots defensive Zapdos and is capable of OHKOing offensive variants without. With more Zapdos’ being spec’d into speed and SpA, this is a more likely scenario. Before you bring up Tera Grass, forcing Zapdos or Moltres is almost always in the Wellspring user’s favor, because these two are also tasked with checking Zamazenta, a common Wellspring partner. Now suddenly they’re losing to Ironpress or LO Zama clicking CC.

-Crippling something with status can be applied to almost any broken offensive threat. Think Roaring Moon, Volcarona, or a more extreme example, Chien-Pao who both could be crippled with status. That doesn’t suddenly make them a non-issue.

-Proactive playing is valid counterplay to dealing with Wellspring, but its easier said than done when Wellspring has a handful of switch-in opportunities, be it Ting-Lu, Tusk, Scarf Ghold locked into MiR, Primarina clicking Surf, etc. It is also worth bringing up that Wellspring doesn’t need to click SD at all to break. Cudgel Knock Spikes, 3-Attacks Taunt, and AoA are very real sets that can accumulate progress with minimal effort.

-Dragonite is often cited as a check, but its not a consistent one. It loathes Knock Off and Roost variants can outright lose the 1v1 to Play Rough Wellspring.

-I got a question. How does one scout Wellspring? How would one scout Spikes of all things? It is risky to scout Wellspring because it’s an immediate threat as opposed to something like Zamazenta which has a few safe mid-ground scouts. What constitutes as “scouting for spikes”? Tusk, Treads, and Hatt want nothing to do with a Wellspring. Even Corv and G-Weez take over 35% from Ivy and are safe entry points for some of its teammates.

-The hazard weakness is over-exaggerated. It is true that Wellspring being unable to run boots leaves it inherently vulnerable to spike stack. A couple things. Wellspring could feasibly run Synthesis because it doesn’t need many attacking slots to do its job. It also has positive matchups into a majority of our SR/Spike setters, threatening them out and pressure the rest of their team. Its the same deal with Kyurem, but there’s a larger punishment to taking 25% than taking 12% from Rocks or a single layer of Spikes.

I think another reason why Wellspring has been seen as healthy is because of how often U-Turn Wellspring is spammed. Now about that. This is something I discussed with Shaymin Sky recently, but I find U-Turn to be a waste on Wellspring. The value of gaining momentum is there, but Wellspring can generate greater value with Knock, Taunt, Spikes, Swords Dance, or Play Rough. Pivoting is useful for mons like Cinderace, Zapdos, and Dragapult who have clear defensive counterplay. Wellspring doesn’t need to pivot because it already forces progress by itself.

Wellsprimg can just click Cudgel for free without repercussions, except when it’s up against another Wellspring, which has been what people been gravitating towards. We’ve reached a stage where the most optimal Wellspring counterplay is to run your own Wellspring (or run Pecha and hope it doesn’t get crit by +2 Tera Water Ivy Cudgel).

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

I think another reason why Wellspring has been seen as healthy is because of how often U-Turn Wellspring is spammed. Now about that. This is something I discussed with Shaymin Sky recently, but I find U-Turn to be a waste on Wellspring. The value of gaining momentum is there, but Wellspring can generate greater value with Knock, Taunt, Spikes, Swords Dance, or Play Rough. Pivoting is useful for mons like Cinderace, Zapdos, and Dragapult who have clear defensive counterplay. Wellspring doesn’t need to pivot because it already forces progress by itself.

I mean, U-Turn is pretty broken with hazards. Let’s say Wellspring managed to knock off a Pecharunt's boots. Then, it will receive heavy pressure when it comes in on U-turn when there’s spikes and/or rocks up.

 

[Welcome to mars]

I believe that wellspring’s limited defensive answers and ability to easily cripple teams that lack these defensive answers make it unhealthy, which is why I support a ban of it.

If you want to argue why you believe it is balanced, that is perfectly fine, but exaggerating how much fat will thrive should it be removed in order to argue that the main reason it should not be banned is so it can check those types of playstyles, is not the right way to go about things especially when this argument, does not address whether the ogre is balanced or not outside of how it affects bulkier teams.

the banning of this particular pokemon will not result in a metagame infested with slow bulky teams, it is not the single thing keeping them in balance.

 

[olamomalo]

AV Mola would have nothing stopping its pivot. That alone is reason to never ban wellspring. That Pokémon is actually skill-less gameplay.

I think oger is to balance as ursaluna is to stall. Balance just going to have a bad time. That’s not a bad thing. It just means balance is weak vs oger. There are things you can use if you want to slow it down, such as ammoongus , hydrapple, deagonite, kyurem, sinistcha, pecharunt, or more exotic things that are immune to water.

A Pokémon like this is only a problem if you can’t answer defensively or offensively for the same set, without needing like avalugg or scarf dragapult. That was the gouging fire problem: too fat to Ohko and too threatening to give pivots. Again, for oger, I think this is only getting iffy for the fat trailblaze sets.

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

AV Mola would have nothing stopping its pivot. That alone is reason to never ban wellspring. That Pokémon is actually skill-less gameplay.

Can people stop bringing up fat mons as an excuse to keep wellspring in the tier? You can run breakers like Specs Kyurem if you wanna force progress vs fat. And if Mola turns out to be too broken, just ban it next. Please argue about how Wellspring itself is not broken, not how it is the sole thing keeping some archetypes/mons in check.

There are things you can use if you want to slow it down, such as ammoongus , hydrapple, deagonite, kyurem, sinistcha, pecharunt, or more exotic things that are immune to water.

Amoong is passive and only fits on stall, Hydrapple dislikes play rough and is pretty hard to fit, Dnite and Kyurem dislikes knock and play rough though the former is splashable, Sinistcha is a bit hard to fit and drops to knock, Pecharunt can’t take Tera Water Cudgel well. If you need to use exotic niche mons to check wellspring effectively, that means that the more viable mons can’t check wellspring effectively, which is an argument to ban it.

 

[Heatranator]

AV Mola would have nothing stopping its pivot. That alone is reason to never ban wellspring. That Pokémon is actually skill-less gameplay.

The reliable Volcanion:
(and before somebody says something along the lines of "Volcanion is bad!!!!", it will absolutely get better in a post waterpon meta).

But you know what you can also do? Punish the mola user switching in, since Pokemon such as kyurem, raging bolt, dragapult, gholdengo, Iron Crown, Pecharunt, Zapdos, Primarina, Hatterene, Garganacl, Deoxys-Speed, Slowking-Galar, Darkrai, Meowscarada, Iron Hands, Rillaboom, Tornadus-Therian, Sinistcha are still in the god damn tier to help with that.

I think oger is to balance as ursaluna is to stall. Balance just going to have a bad time. That’s not a bad thing. It just means balance is weak vs oger. There are things you can use if you want to slow it down, such as ammoongus , hydrapple, deagonite, kyurem, sinistcha, pecharunt, or more exotic things that are immune to water.

Theres a big difference between oger and ursa, ursa has issues against more offensive teams since while it has some bulk, at best its trading into one mon then dying next turn (unless its in TR but TR as a whole is niche, even if its been getting better recently). Waterpon on the other hand, is commonly able to trade very well with offensive teams due to its typing and bulk.
The definition of a healthy balance breaker is something like hydrapple or NP torn, as while they have some leverage into bulkier MU's, they typically have struggles they need to overcome to truly work (hydrapples awkward typing and low speed, NP torn needing LO most of the time which ofc neccesitates hazard removal and its main stab move is 80% accurate). They do very well into balance, but have flaws that hold them back.


The best I've seen for waterpon is that it can't fit every move it wants (still gets by fine with something simply like cudgel, whip, knock turn), its weak to hazard damage (hazard removal is a dime a dozen and it has synthesis to keep itself healthy) and its locked to its item and tera (tera water is still great defensively and offensively, the 1.2x power boost from the mask is great and it still has its evs and moves to mess around with to have insane versatility).

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

If broken checks broken is an effective argument, then we can unban Eternatus and Dialga. With 2 splashable and effective wellspring answers, wellspring will be reasonable to manage, and we don’t care if Eternatus and Dialga fucks up the tier, so long as they answer wellspring.

 

[Avira]

If broken checks broken is an effective argument, then we can unban Eternatus and Dialga. With 2 splashable and effective wellspring answers, wellspring will be reasonable to manage, and we don’t care if Eternatus and Dialga fucks up the tier, so long as they answer wellspring.

I agree that broken checks broken is not a good tiering mantra, but Gouging Fire actually has higher viability than Dialga in Ubers and Ubers UU, and Dialga would probably be less broken than Gouging Fire was in OU due to it lacking the means to be a set-up threat along with Gouging Fire having comparable bulk to it as well as access to Booster Energy all while not having a mostly useless Ability offensively. This is not to say that Dialga wouldn't broken in OU as I believe it very well would be, but you could've used a better example with something more outright broken.

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

True, but you still get my point.

 

[UltraSword]

AV Mola would have nothing stopping its pivot. That alone is reason to never ban wellspring. That Pokémon is actually skill-less gameplay.

The fact that we are talking about AV Mola like it is going to destroy the meta if Wellspring is gone is completely insane. That dude isn't going to be doing anything against pokemon like Rillaboom, Volcanion, and the other strong breakers in the tier. AV Mola can't even use wish which is literally the only reason you ever use Alomomola. I understand wanting Wogerpon to stay unbanned (since I also believe it isn't broken) but arguing that this would be broken if it leaves is insane.

A Pokémon like this is only a problem if you can’t answer defensively or offensively for the same set, without needing like avalugg or scarf dragapult.

Wait where the hell did these pokemon come from? Neither Avalugg or Scarf Dragapult are viable (unless I am missing something in which case please share the tech lmao).

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

all right let's go ahead and redirect this discussion somewhere more productive since it's going in a direction it shouldn't be. 658Greninja has made some excellent points about waterpon's unhealthiness in the current meta and how untenable the so-called traditional counterplay is, certainly better than i could've done, so i'm going to attack waterpon from a different angle and ask: what does waterpon actually do for the meta that couldn't be replaced by something else? we have plenty of fatbreakers and offensive pivots and setup sweepers, and blocking mola's flip turn is a role that can easily be filled by volcanion (which is currently in the top half of the vr, higher than multiple actual ou mons, and would very likely rise in a waterponless environment). not that it'd be a defense of the mon if there was or a valid justification for a ban if there wasn't, but is there any truly irreplaceable function of waterpon?

 

[Finchinator]

I promised a survey after OLT, but we will probably wait a few more weeks with SCL around the corner and no strong consensus currently existing. I do not feel strong motivation to suspect anything at this exact moment, but that can change and (qualified) community input does matter, too.

shoutout everyone, but ima, for keeping the chain alive, too

 

[ausma]

Fuck you ima you were supposed to boost my self esteem for the day

 

[miya_04]

I would like to briefly add that (to my knowledge) tiering decisions don't actually consider the position of 'if we ban X then Y will be broken!' and this is directly addressed in tiering policy. So bringing this point up won't bear much fruit I feel.

In terms of woger itself I'm not sure. I agree with all the points raised about how effective it is as punching holes in teams, and I do think there's something to be said about the power level of a Pokémon whose counterplay has always been to 'just don't let it come in and keep up rocks' since nothing really switches into woger consistently over the course of a game (the specifics of why have already been covered by previous users in this thread so I won't repeat those points) which is why it's so effective into slower teams. Though the rise of torn-t to ou has atleast added another tool to the box when dealing with it (before woger teras to live the hurricane and 2 shots the whole team anyway haha)

On the other hand, I would say woger goes from 'crazy strong' to just 'strong' against more offensive teams who can consistently threaten to kill or trade into it due to the greater frequency of high speed tiers, fat trading guys, and priority carried by offense. Not to mention how much more easily offense teams can keep hazards up, since you can never give a well positioned offense a free turn by removing, Vs fat teams who not only provide more chances to remove, but also more opportunities for woger to switch in on fatter guys with it's great typing and decent bulk.

And given the prevalence + diversity of offense this gen (though I will admit I don't know how much the archetype use rates have changed over time, and only have my own ladder experience to go off) you could make the argument that woger isn't that big of an issue to deal with when you're using the most common archetypes in the tier.

 

[UltraSword]

all right let's go ahead and redirect this discussion somewhere more productive since it's going in a direction it shouldn't be. 658Greninja has made some excellent points about waterpon's unhealthiness in the current meta and how untenable the so-called traditional counterplay is, certainly better than i could've done, so i'm going to attack waterpon from a different angle and ask: what does waterpon actually do for the meta that couldn't be replaced by something else? we have plenty of fatbreakers and offensive pivots and setup sweepers, and blocking mola's flip turn is a role that can easily be filled by volcanion (which is currently in the top half of the vr, higher than multiple actual ou mons, and would very likely rise in a waterponless environment). not that it'd be a defense of the mon if there was or a valid justification for a ban if there wasn't, but is there any truly irreplaceable function of waterpon?

Honestly, I have no idea if there is an irreplaceable function Wogerpon has but I can talk about the 2 pokemon I think would be really good in ou with it gone (which would probably help explain the role this pokemon has in ou at the moment).

One of these pokemon is Volcanion as we have already talked about. It also has water absorb which allows it to fill a similar role but more importantly, it can actually choose what its defensive tera and item it wants to use. It is quite slow compared to Wogerpon but that also means it has more reason to invest in its solid bulk. I am sure Volcanion will be quite good if Wogerpon goes but that is pretty obvious.

The less obviously good pokemon that would show up after Wogerpon is banned is Quaquaval (imo). Wogerpon is one of Quaquaval's worst match ups because Wogerpon is immune to water and also shrugs off Quaquaval's fighting stab. Wogerpon is then able to hit back with (insert grass move here) to completely destroy Quaquaval's hopes and dreams. Quaquaval could tera of course but being tera reliant in this meta is usually a sign that you are a bad pokemon (unless you are Dragonite but that is because of set variety). Quaquaval also has coverage moves like Brave Bird that can beat Wogerpon but it already suffers too much from 4mss without having to use anti Wogerpon coverage and it is already slower anyway. If Wogerpon were to be banned however, I am certain Quaquaval would rise up as the new premier water type breaker. Not only does it get more flexibility with its movepool (and defensive tera since it wants to actually beat Rage Bait Bolt) but it also has much more freedom to spam Aqua Step and eventually outpace the entire meta after 2 turns. Sure, Volcanion exists but it is a much easier pokemon to prepare for than Wogerpon is and it is a lot less immediately threatening on top of that. With Moxie being the cherry on top, I feel like Quaquaval would be quite good with Wogerpon gone.

This is not an argument to keep Wogerpon in the tier in fear that these pokemon would be too threatening nor is it an argument to ban it so that these pokemon can shine. I am just noting a couple pokemon that I believe would greatly improve if a Wogerpon ban ever were to happen.

 

[Avira]

Honestly, I have no idea if there is an irreplaceable function Wogerpon has but I can talk about the 2 pokemon I think would be really good in ou with it gone (which would probably help explain the role this pokemon has in ou at the moment).

One of these pokemon is Volcanion as we have already talked about. It also has water absorb which allows it to fill a similar role but more importantly, it can actually choose what its defensive tera and item it wants to use. It is quite slow compared to Wogerpon but that also means it has more reason to invest in its solid bulk. I am sure Volcanion will be quite good if Wogerpon goes but that is pretty obvious.

The less obviously good pokemon that would show up after Wogerpon is banned is Quaquaval (imo). Wogerpon is one of Quaquaval's worst match ups because Wogerpon is immune to water and also shrugs off Quaquaval's fighting stab. Wogerpon is then able to hit back with (insert grass move here) to completely destroy Quaquaval's hopes and dreams. Quaquaval could tera of course but being tera reliant in this meta is usually a sign that you are a bad pokemon (unless you are Dragonite but that is because of set variety). Quaquaval also has coverage moves like Brave Bird that can beat Wogerpon but it already suffers too much from 4mss without having to use anti Wogerpon coverage and it is already slower anyway. If Wogerpon were to be banned however, I am certain Quaquaval would rise up as the new premier water type breaker. Not only does it get more flexibility with its movepool (and defensive tera since it wants to actually beat Rage Bait Bolt) but it also has much more freedom to spam Aqua Step and eventually outpace the entire meta after 2 turns. Sure, Volcanion exists but it is a much easier pokemon to prepare for than Wogerpon is and it is a lot less immediately threatening on top of that. With Moxie being the cherry on top, I feel like Quaquaval would be quite good with Wogerpon gone.

This is not an argument to keep Wogerpon in the tier in fear that these pokemon would be too threatening nor is it an argument to ban it so that these pokemon can shine. I am just noting a couple pokemon that I believe would greatly improve if a Wogerpon ban ever were to happen.

I disagree about Quaquaval becoming the premier Water-type breaker in OU with Ogerpon-Wellspring banned as she isn't the only reason Quaquaval is rarely used in OU. Yeah, being reliant on Water STAB is not ideal given Wellspring's Water Absorb, but Wogerpon absolutely does not shrug off Quaquaval's Fighting STAB.

252 Atk Quaquaval Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In no universe is this shrugging off Close Combat.

Quaquaval's main problem is that it needs that Speed boost from Aqua Step to become a threat given its low Base Speed, and there are many mons that can handle an unboosted Quaq's coverage or even set-up on it, such as Araquanid, Dragonite, Hydrapple, Pecharunt, Primarina, Sinistcha, Zamazenta, and some other fat OU walls.

Keldeo is a lot harder to switch into, much faster than Quaquaval, and can hit on both ends of the spectrum while commonly carrying priority.

Manaphy boosts much faster than Quaquaval does and has higher Base Speed and Base defenses even if it has lower initial power.

Volcanion is also a lot harder to switch into and also has much better bulk than Quaquaval as well as having trapping sets that can really annoy fat.

I believe it's pretty unjustified to say that Quaquaval would become the premier Water-type breaker given the better options we have available. Quaquaval had low viability in OU even before Ogerpon-Wellspring joined the meta, so I'm unconvinced it'd magically become what you say it will given it was D-rank in the last update to the viability rankings before the Teal Mask release, showing that its problem is not Ogerpon-Wellspring.

Resource Thread 'SV OU Post-HOME Viability Ranking Thread [ Final Update: Post #280 ]'

Jul 2, 2023

art by ausma | VR concept credit goes to PK Gaming | run by Finchinator​

Welcome to the post-HOME Scarlet and Violet Overused viability rankings!

In this thread, we, as a community, will be ranking every single justifiably usable Pokemon into "tiers" ranking their viability in the metagame. You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are viable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this...

• Finchinator
• Replies: 280
• Forum: Gen 9 OU Archive

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[toshimelonhead]

Quaquaval doesn't mind Wellspring much at all. One Aqua Step prior is all that it needs to start snowballing. If you're looking for the real winner in a post Wellspring world, that list begins and ends with Manaphy. Volcanion also doesn't mind Wellspring as much as it minds hazards and a middling speed tier. Volcanion just can't click Steam Eruption at Team Preview if Wellspring is on the opponent's lineup, but Fire Blast is more than good enough. Ogerpon-Wellspring is definitely a top-tier mon, but I have never considered it oppressive enough to consider a ban. I don't know what "role" it has to have because not everything needs a predefined role to have value. "Super busted breaker" is not an empty niche in SV OU, but it's also table stakes for listing as a top threat. It's part of a ring of 10-12 threats that play whack-a-mole depending on the flavor set of the month the ladder gods create to beat up the other threats in that ring.