Lower Tiers SM Sub-Zero Used Discussion + Resources

[missangelic]

Approved by zinnias

Image credit: Kouki Saitou for the Pokemon TCG - Dragon Majesty

SM SU Discussion Thread​

This thread is for Sun and Moon Sub-Zero Used (SM SU), which is the lowest unofficial tier on Smogon and below ZU. Back in 2017, SM SU had a cult following of speculation among lower tier players during the gen, and ZU gaining a ladder opened SU up to using the stats to create a formal tierlist. Although the tier became less popular after SS became the current generation, SM SU has seen a revival starting in 2022 through the SU Discord, where we scheduled roomtours, held a couple of tours, and expanded our resources. Now we finally have a thread to discuss the first "official" iteration of SU, share resources for the tier, and discuss metagame developments!

Pokemon tiered as ZU by usage

Altaria, Avalugg, Basculin, Beheeyem, Bouffalant, Bronzor, Chatot, Combusken, Cradily, Crustle, Drifblim, Dusclops, Electivire, Floatzel, Golem, Gourgeist-Super, Granbull, Kadabra, Kecleon, Lapras, Leafeon, Lickilicky, Lycanroc-Midnight, Mareanie, Marowak, Mawile, Meowstic-*, Mr. Mime, Muk, Pawniard, Pinsir, Poliwrath, Probopass, Purugly, Pyukumuku, Raichu, Rampardos, Rapidash, Regice, Rotom-Fan, Sandslash, Servine, Silvally (Normal), Silvally-Dark, Silvally-Dragon, Silvally-Fighting, Silvally-Ground, Silvally-Water, Simipour, Simisear, Swanna, Torterra, Toucannon, Volbeat

SU Banlist

Pokemon/elements banned from SU: Damp Rock, Light Clay, Vigoroth

Viability Rankings

S Ranks

Viability Rankings

S

Monferno

Simisage

Wishiwashi​

S-

Furfrou

A Ranks

A+​

Fraxure

Alolan Grimer

Silvally-Poison

Stunfisk

Trevenant

Zebstrika

A​

Arbok

Camerupt

Duosion

Frogadier

Gourgeist-Large

Metang

Misdreavus

Swalot

A-

Electabuzz

Gabite​

Glaceon

Grumpig

Klang

Quilladin

Scraggy

Silvally-Electric

Swoobat

Vibrava

B Ranks

B+​

Electrode

Dugtrio

Machoke

Meganium

Persian

Shiinotic

Silvally-Grass

Solrock

Vullaby

B​

Butterfree

Cacturne

Chimecho

Ditto

Glalie

Gogoat

Alolan Golem

Gourgeist-Small

Murkrow

Ninjask

Oricorio

Silvally-Fire

Silvally-Rock

Togetic

B-​

Dunsparce

Gothitelle

Krokorok

Mienfoo

Oricorio-Pa'u

Pupitar

Sawsbuck

Whiscash


C Ranks

C+​

Armaldo

Bellossom

Carbink

Dragonair

Dusknoir

Dustox

Frillish

Golduck

Gumshoos

Hakamo-o
Hippopotas

Hypno

Illumise

Ivysaur

Leavanny

Lunatone
Magcargo

Pikachu

Raticate

Seaking

Shuckle

Silvally-Psychic
Smeargle

Staryu

Walrein

Wigglytuff

C​

Ampharos

Bibarel

Corsola

Jumpluff

Lairon
Lumineon

Magmar

Masquerain

Regigigas

Relicanth

Silvally-Flying

Whirlipede

Wormadam-Trash

C-​

Girafarig

Lopunny

Natu
Noctowl

Oranguru
Pidgeot

Politoed
Sliggoo

Zweilous

Personal VR Tool

Challenge Code

/challenge gen7zu @@@ -Altaria, -Avalugg, -Basculin, -Beheeyem, -Bouffalant, -Bronzor, -Chatot, -Combusken, -Cradily, -Crustle, -Dark Memory, -Dragon Memory, -Drifblim, -Dusclops, -Electivire, -Fighting Memory, -Floatzel, -Golem, +Golem-Alola, -Gourgeist-Super, -Granbull, -Ground Memory, -Kadabra, -Kecleon, -Komala, -Lapras, -Leafeon, -Lickilicky, -Lycanroc-Midnight, -Mareanie, -Marowak, -Mawile, -Meowstic, -Mr. Mime, -Muk, -Pawniard, -Pinsir, -Poliwrath, -Probopass, -Purugly, -Pyukumuku, -Raichu, -Rampardos, -Rapidash, -Regice, -Rotom-Fan, -Sandslash, -Servine, -Silvally, +Silvally-Bug, +Silvally-Electric, +Silvally-Fire, +Silvally-Flying, +Silvally-Grass, +Silvally-Ice, +Silvally-Poison, +Silvally-Psychic, +Silvally-Rock, -Simipour, -Simisear, -Swanna, -Torterra, -Toucannon, -Volbeat, -Water Memory, -Damp Rock, -Huntail, -Light Clay, -Vigoroth

Sample Teams

Top Mons Balance by sleid
Double Poison Balance by sleid
Scraggy Balanced Offense by sleid
Demon Klang Hazard Stack by DoomBre1oom
SimiCanth HO SimiCanth HO by sleid
CM Grumpig BO by Crmpt
SD Sawsbuck Offense by DoomBre1oom
Forest's Curse HO by missangelic
Arbok + Fraxure HO by missangelic

SU Discord
Council: missangelic (SU leader), sleid, DoomBre1oom, Michael Jordan

 

[missangelic]

Speed Tiers

Tier 0: 500 and above​

Sprite	Pokemon	Actual Speed	Base Speed	EVs	Nature	IVs	Boosts
	Ninjask	920	160	252	Positive	31	+2
	Huntail	892	52	252	Positive	31	+4
	Ninjask	838	160	252	Neutral	31	+2
	Swoobat	718	114	252	Positive	31	+2
	Ninjask	690	160	252	Positive	31	+1
	Sawsbuck	634	95	252	Positive	31	+2
	Ninjask	628	160	252	Neutral	31	+1
	Levanny	622	92	252	Positive	31	+2
	Golduck	590	85	252	Positive	31	+2
	Sawsbuck	578	95	252	Neutral	31	+2
	Leavanny	566	92	252	Neutral	31	+2
	Butterfree, Lunatone	524	70	252	Positive	31	+2
	Electabuzz	508	105	252	Positive	31	+1
	Dustox	502	65	252	Positive	31	+2

Tier 1: 400 - 499​

Sprite	Pokemon	Actual Speed	Base Speed	EVs	Nature	IVs	Boosts
	Furfrou	499	102	252	Positive	31	+1
	Simisage	496	101	252	Positive	31	+1
	Slaking	492	100	252	Positive	31	+1
	Gourgeist-Small	489	99	252	Positive	31	+1
	Frogadier	483	97	252	Positive	31	+1
	Ivysaur	480	60	252	Positive	31	+2
	Sawsbuck, Silvally-Bug, Silvally-Electric, Silvally-Fire, Silvally-Flying, Silvally-Grass, Silvally-Ice, Silvally-Poison, Silvally-Rock	475	95	252	Positive	31	+1
	Oricorio, Oricorio-Pa'u	469	93	252	Positive	31	+1
	Ninjask	460	160	252	Positive	31	0
	Ampharos, Relicanth	458	55	252	Positive	31	+2
	Slaking	448	100	252	Neutral	31	+1
	Huntail	446	52	252	Positive	31	+2
	Gourgeist-Small	445	99	252	Neutral	31	+1
	Golduck, Misdreavus	442	85	252	Positive	31	+1
	Electrode	438	150	252	Positive	31	0
	Ivysaur	438	60	252	Neutral	31	+2
	Bellossom, Klang	436	50	252	Positive	31	+2
	Gabite	433	82	252	Positive	31	+1
	Monferno	430	81	252	Positive	31	+1
	Grumpig	426	80	252	Positive	31	+1
	Ninjask	419	160	252	Neutral	31	0
	Ampharos, Relicanth	418	55	252	Neutral	31	+2
	Armaldo, Golem-Alola	414	45	252	Positive	31	+2
	Krokorok	406	74	252	Positive	31	+1
	Huntail	406	52	252	Neutral	31	+2

Tier 2: 300 - 399​

Sprite	Pokemon	Actual Speed	Base Speed	EVs	Nature	IVs	Boosts
	Bellossom, Klang	398	50	252	Neutral	31	+2
	Butterfree, Dragonair	393	70	252	Positive	31	+1
	Fraxure	384	67	252	Positive	31	+1
	Armaldo, Golem-Alola	378	45	252	Neutral	31	+2
	Dustox, Glaceon, Gothitelle, Hakamo-o, Mienfoo	376	65	252	Positive	31	+1
	Dugtrio	372	120	252	Positive	31	0
	Zebstrika	364	116	252	Positive	31	0
	Persian	361	115	252	Positive	31	0
	Whiscash	360	60	252	Positive	31	+1
	Swoobat	359	114	252	Positive	31	0
	Dragonair	358	70	252	Neutral	31	+1
	Jumpluff	350	110	252	Positive	31	0
	Fraxure	349	67	252	Neutral	31	+1
	Trevenant	348	56	252	Positive	31	+1
	Dustox, Glaceon, Hakamo-o, Mienfoo	343	65	252	Neutral	31	+1
	Electabuzz	339	105	252	Positive	31	0
	Furfrou	333	102	252	Positive	31	0
	Simisage	331	101	252	Positive	31	0
	Slaking	328	100	252	Positive	31	0
	Whiscash	328	60	252	Neutral	31	+1
	Bellossom	327	50	252	Positive	31	+1
	Gourgeist-Small	326	99	252	Positive	31	0
	Frogadier, Raticate	322	97	252	Positive	31	0
	Scraggy	321	48	252	Positive	31	+1
	Sawsbuck, Silvally-Bug, Silvally-Electric, Silvally-Fire, Silvally-Flying, Silvally-Grass, Silvally-Ice, Silvally-Poison, Silvally-Rock	317	95	252	Positive	31	0
	Trevenant	316	56	252	Neutral	31	+1
	Oricorio, Oricorio-Pa'u	313	93	252	Positive	31	0
	Leavanny	311	92	252	Positive	31	0
	Golem-Alola	310	45	252	Positive	31	+1
	Lumineon	309	91	252	Positive	31	0

Tier 3: 200 - 299​

Sprite	Pokemon	Actual Speed	Base Speed	EVs	Nature	IVs	Boosts
	Slaking	299	100	252	Neutral	31	0
	Bellossom	298	50	252	Neutral	31	+1
	Golduck, Misdreavus	295	85	252	Positive	31	0
	Scraggy	292	48	252	Neutral	31	+1
	Sawsbuck	289	95	252	Neutral	31	0
	Gabite	289	82	252	Positive	31	0
	Monferno	287	81	252	Positive	31	0
	Arbok, Glalie, Grumpig	284	80	252	Positive	31	0
	Smeargle	273	75	252	Positive	31	0
	Krokorok	271	74	252	Positive	31	0
	Golduck	269	85	252	Neutral	31	0
	Bibarel	265	71	252	Positive	31	0
	Butterfree, Dragonair, Lunatone	262	70	252	Positive	31	0
	Monferno	261	81	252	Neutral	31	0
	Arbok	259	80	252	Neutral	31	0
	Fraxure	256	67	252	Positive	31	0
	Dustox, Glaceon, Gothitelle, Hakamo-o, Mienfoo	251	65	252	Positive	31	0
	Ivysaur, Whiscash	240	60	252	Positive	31	0
	Dragonair, Lunatone	239	70	252	Neutral	31	0
	Fraxure	233	67	252	Neutral	31	0
	Trevenant	232	56	252	Positive	31	0
	Glaceon, Hakamo-o, Mienfoo	229	65	252	Neutral	31	0
	Ampharos, Cacturne, Relicanth, Swalot	219	55	252	Positive	31	0
	Huntail	223	52	252	Positive	31	0
	Ivysaur, Whiscash	219	60	252	Neutral	31	0
	Bellossom, Klang, Metang	218	50	252	Positive	31	0
	Scraggy	214	48	252	Positive	31	0
	Trevenant	211	56	252	Neutral	31	0
	Ampharos, Cacturne, Relicanth, Swalot	209	55	252	Neutral	31	0
	Armaldo, Golem-Alola, Gumshoos	207	45	252	Positive	31	0
	Illumise, Misdreavus	206	85	0	Neutral	31	0
	Huntail	203	52	252	Neutral	31	0
	Gabite	200	82	0	Neutral	31	0

Tier 4: 100 - 199​

Sprite	Pokemon	Actual Speed	Base Speed	EVs	Nature	IVs	Boosts
	Bellossom, Klang	199	50	252	Neutral	31	0
	Monferno	198	81	0	Neutral	31	0
	Meganium	196	80	0	Neutral	31	0
	Scraggy	195	48	252	Neutral	31	0
	Armaldo, Golem-Alola, Gumshoos	189	45	252	Neutral	31	0
	Camerupt	179	40	252	Neutral	31	0
	Politoed, Solrock, Vibrava	176	70	0	Neutral	31	0
	Gourgeist-Large	174	69	0	Neutral	31	0
	Gogoat	172	68	0	Neutral	31	0
	Chimecho, Gothitelle	166	65	0	Neutral	31	0
	Vullaby	156	60	0	Neutral	31	0
	Quilladin	150	57	0	Neutral	31	0
	Trevenant	148	56	0	Neutral	31	0
	Ampharos, Cacturne, Relicanth, Swalot	146	55	0	Neutral	31	0
	Metang	136	50	0	Neutral	31	0
	Scraggy	132	48	0	Neutral	31	0
	Dunsparce, Golem-Alola, Machoke	126	45	0	Neutral	31	0
	Camerupt, Togetic	116	40	0	Neutral	31	0
	Corsola	106	35	0	Neutral	31	0
	Stunfisk	100	32	0	Neutrall	31	0

Tier 5: 99 and below​

Sprite	Pokemon	Actual Speed	Base Speed	EVs	Nature	IVs	Boosts
	Duosion, Shiinotic, Wishiwashi	96	30	0	Neutral	31	0
	Grimer-Alola	86	25	0	Neutral	31	0
	Wishiwashi	58	30	0	Negative	0	0
	Shuckle	46	15	0	Neutral	31	0

Role Compendium

Utility Roles

Entry Hazards
Stealth Rock
|
Spikes
|
Toxic Spikes
|
Sticky Web
|

Hazard Removal/Prevention
Defog
|
Rapid Spin
|
Magic Bounce
|

Item Disruption
Knock Off (offensive)
|
Knock Off (utility)
|
Trick / Switcheroo
|
Sticky Hold


Misc. Utility
Encore
|
Taunt
|


Offensive Roles

Attackers
Physical Attackers
|
Special Attackers
|
Mixed Attackers
|

Choice Item Users
Choice Band
|
Choice Specs
|
Choice Scarf
|

Setup Users
Acid Armor / Iron Defense
|
Agility / Autotomize / Rock Polish
|
Belly Drum
|
Bulk Up
|
Calm Mind
|
Competitive
|
Curse
|
Dragon Dance
|
Hone Claws

Nasty Plot
|
Power-Up Punch
|
Quiver Dance
|
Swords Dance
|
Z-Celebrate/Forest's Curse/Trick-or-Treat

Misc.. Setup Users
(Cosmic Power), (Shell Smash), (Shift Gear)

Priority Users
Aqua Jet
|
Bullet Punch

Extreme Speed
|
Fake Out
|
Ice Shard

Mach Punch
|
Shadow Sneak
|
Sucker Punch
|
Vacuum Wave


Trapping
Infestation
|
Magnet Pull

Pursuit
|


Hyper Offensive Roles
note: Damp Rock and Light Clay are both banned

Self-KO
Explosion
|
Memento
|

Sun
Sun Setters

Sun Beneficaries
|

Trick Room
Trick Room Setters
|
Trick Room Beneficiaries
|


Defensive Roles

Walls
Physical Walls
-Large: |
Special Walls
|
Mixed Walls
|

Pivots
Parting Shot
|
U-turn (Fast/Offensive)
silvally-fire: |
U-turn (Slow/Defensive)
|
Volt Switch (Fast/Offensive)
|
Volt Switch (Slow/Defensive)
|
Regenerator
|

Anti-Setup
Clear Smog

Dragon Tail
|
Haze
|
Roar/Whirlwind
|
Imposter


Status
Burn
Will-O-Wisp
|
Lava Plume / Scald / Flame Body
|
Paralysis
Thunder Wave / Glare
|
Discharge / Body Slam / Static
|
Sleep
Sleep Powder
|
Spore

Hypnosis
|
Yawn
|
Poison
Toxic (common users)
|
Poison Touch

Gunk Shot

Poison Fang

Poison Jab

Sludge Bomb
|
Leech Seed
|
Absorbers
Magic Guard

Natural Cure
|
Rest (common users)
|
Shed Skin
|

Clerics
Aromatherapy/Heal Bell
|
Healing Wish
|
Wish
|

 

[missangelic]

Reserved

 

[missangelic]

You may now post!

 

[Oofhixd]

Sharing my thoughts on huntail, fraxure and swoobat before the council votes.

Huntail I mean this thing has to go. It just wins games and is a completely unhealthy presence in the meta. It can run either physical or special and it has barely any checks. Nothing can switch into this mon except very few, niche mons and it makes other mons in the meta just unviable.

Swoobat this mon im more neutral towards. Sure it can sweep games but it doesnt do that as well as huntail does a lot of the time. Dont get me wrong its still a great mon but idt its as pressing as huntail. That being said, this mon has an insane speed tier and simple cm just wins games for you that you normally wouldn’t. I dont think its a healthy presence in the metagame so i think the bat has to go aswell.

Fraxure I can see how fraxure could be thought as a problem in the current meta, but i think the pros of this mon outweigh the cons. Sure dd can run away with some games but its also a metagame staple that imo increases diversity in the builder. I think thie mon is a fine presence in the meta compared to the two mons mentioned above but i could see it being broken in the future.

 

[Michael Jordan]

The council is current discussing Huntail, Swoobat and Fraxures position in the tier. I'll put out some of my thoughts on these mons to justify my votes.

Fraxure

Fraxure counter play is quite consistent considering everyone is only running DD 3attacks. It's quite slow after the initial Dragon Dance and meaning its still up to being revenged by scarfers. Alongside that after a boost, It's not able to muscle past the premier physical walls such as Gourgeist-Large, Stunfisk and Wishiwashi. While a lot of these can't OHKO back, they can punish with status, or Rocky Helmet chip to make it easier to revenge. Fraxure can position itself to OHKO these threats with SD and a Z move, but losing Eviolite or the speed boost makes it easy to revenge kill. Very good mon but I think it's fine for it to remain in the tier for now.

Huntail
Huntail is broken. Shell Smash is a broken move and alongside it's set flexibility and solid natural physical bulk, it's hard to check. Passive mons like Vibrava and 0 attack Grimer-Alola provide set up opportunities, and once set up its hard to stop. With Water Veil, Wishiwashi can't burn it, meaning Huntail wins the 1v1 weakened but still alive and able to sweep through teams. It's physical bulk makes it so Priority moves requires a lot of chip for them to pick off Huntail. Scarfers are often consistent counter play, but combined with Sticky Webs, Huntail will outspeed and pick off your scarfer. Huntail has some set flexbility meaning defensive counter play isn't consistent. You're specially defensive grass type will get picked off by Physical sets, and vice versa. Huntail can also use Z moves to break past walls. This has to go.

Swoobat
I was pretty on the fence for Swoobat. I believe its more problematic than Fraxure due to its set fleibility. Kee Berry Swoobat allows it to negate its frail defenses to get multiple boosts and clean teams up. Salac berry Swoobat allows it to invalidate Scarfs as counterplay. It's defensive typing isn't the best, however it does have key resistances such as fighting and a ground immunity allowing it to punish locking into either moves to set up. It's one of the fastest mons in the tier and Simple allows it to snowball very quickly and become hard to stop. What stops me from wanting to ban this mon is the presence of Grimer-Alola, which is a very good check. You beat the Salac Berry variants if healthy, and while you eventually lose the 1v1 vs Kee Berry set if you are not investing in Attack evs, you have enough turns to fish for poison, keeping it low and allowing your scarfer to revenge it. Swoobats defenses are really frail that even after the boost from CM, you still drop to or are heavily pressured by strong super effective attacks like Zebstrikas thunderbolt. I am currently voting DNB, but I am open to revoting on it after the current tour, after seeing more gameplay.

 

[doom]

Although our reasonings may be shared shortly, I would like to take this time to share my thoughts on the bans and also highlight some other noteworthy HO mons that there should be an eye on, even if slightly

The Slate

Huntail
This thing is uttterly atroicous. Not much new can be said about it that hasn't been explained above or numerous, numerous times in the Discord. Any time you play against it, you have to make sure that you do not leave anything up in front of it that is too passive that allows it to get a free Shell Smash, which is a decent amount of mons in this tier. After it gets a Shell Smash up, very little can stop it, and some of the counterplay that we have found, is just not sustainable i.e. . Who remembers when this was somehow better then it was now pre-damp rock ban? I VOTED BAN

Swoobat
I have wavered back and forth on how I want to vote on the slate for this mon. Just like with Huntail, you cannot afford to be too passive, because this Mon gets rolling QUICK. Wishiwashi KOs your mon? Swoobat can set-up a Calm Mind, while baiting a Kee Berry proc off the Wishiwashi U-Turn, leaving extremely little that can beat it. I have used this Mon more then most people, and there is numerous times I have sat on team preview, knowing that I will ultimately sweep with Swoobat. Could this be bad teambuilding? Perhaps. Is there more accessible counterplay to it compared to Huntail? Yes, there is. However, this tier is just abused by HO and I do not believe that a Huntail ban would solve all problems with Swoobat roaming around and therefore believe that a Swoobat ban should be implemented. I VOTED BAN

Fraxure
This Mon has been on the radar for what feels like forever now. Although, I once pushed for a ban, I have came to realize that it is a healthy sweeper in this tier. There is far more counterplay to this mon, compared to the two Mons above and it is harder to run away with games after just one Dragon Dance due to an abundance of stellar defensive Mons in this tier. See you next year for another Fraxure slate. I VOTED DO NOT BAN

Set-up Sweepers to Keep an Eye on

Trevenant
Boy, oh boy. Where do I begin. My love for Trevenant knows no bounds. Trevenant has been a staple in this tier, whether it is it's Harvest set or it's Choice Band set, you cannot go wrong. However, I believe those sets pale in comparison to it's Z-Forests Curse set. An omniboost just seems unfair for this mon. It boosts it attack even further, allowing for very minimal Mons to stand in front of it and handle it due to its solid coverage options in Poison Jab and Earthquake, which take advantage of otherwise troubling walls, such as Meganium or Grimer-Alolan. It has Wood Hammer for massive damage or Horn Leech to let Trevenant have a form of recovery to make it more unkillable with a Defense and Special Defense boost. Not to mention it becomes harder to take down now that Knock Off does not get a 1.5x item knock-off boost. It's speed is alright, but it can out speed most of the mons that would hope to revenge kill it. It can be crippled by Status, such as Burn, but worst case you can swap it out with Natural Cure and try and gain value with it later. I do not find this Mon to be broken and feel as if it falls into the same category as Fraxure, due to the abundance of physical walls that can still manage to overcome this nightmare of a tree, such as Vullaby.

Scraggy
I do not find this Mon to be as unhealthy of a set-up Mon as the others, but it is definitely noteworthy. Whether it be a Dragon Dance set or a Bulk-Up set, handling this Mon can be incredibly painful without the correct tools. It has respectable bulk with Eviolite and Drain Punch for extra recovery. It can also run Rest to try and get Shed Skin to work some wonders. I think there is counterplay to it, such as Monferno, which is on every team, but the lack of Fairy types and Mons that run Fairy-type moves let it be a lot scarier than it should.

Simisage
This Mon has been at the top of the meta forever now. While I do not think it is banworthy, it deserves a shout as a sweeper. It is one of the fastest mons in the tier and it's attacks can be absolutely nuclear after a Nasty Plot. It has good enough coverage in Hidden Power-Ice to handle some walls it would struggle with, such as Quilladin or Gourgeist, but what restricts Simisage from being the pinnacle of sweepers here is the coverage outside of that. It struggles to break past prominent walls in the tier, such as Grimer-Alolan or Swalot, due to its only other relevant Special Attacking coverage being Focus Blast, which is not consistent enough. People can run Fightinium-Z or Grassium-Z to help mitigate the problems and just power through, but it often fails and will only take one or two mons down with it if lucky.

Ninjask
Ninjask has been very popular with newcomers recently and deserves a shout. It can get out of hand very quickly with Speed Boost and Swords Dance, but it's frailty is what holds it back. Leech Life is great for recovery, but it rarely survives hits to take advantage of it. It has coverage with Dig and Groundinium-Z, but it can often get baited and be stuck struggling with the Bug-Resist Mons because Dig won't get the job done by itself. I have seen success with teams that run Ninjask with a pivot move and numerous Mons that have Hazard Removal, but it seems like too much work for a Mon set-up mon too often. Also, it can sometimes struggle with 4MSS, with wanting to pick between STABS, Dig for coverage, U-Turn, Swords Dance, and Protect.

 

[missangelic]

Hi! This shouldn't come as much of a surprise, but Huntail is now banned from SM SU by unanimous council vote. While we also voted on Fraxure (0-4) and Swoobat (2-2), neither of them saw the 3/4 majority (50%+1) necessary for a ban, so they will remain SU and under close watch. I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on the bans and how the metagame may develop from here.

 

[Michael Jordan]

I'd like to reflect on some of the teams I built for the tour, I had a lot of fun both building and play, and shout out to Zpice missangelic DoomBre1oom fish1107 and Valerie for tests, theory crafting and letting me rubberduck in your dms to help me with my process. SM SU is a fun tier which I was involved in it's initial start up, so I was nice to come back and win the tournament in a full circle moment.

WEEK 1 VS Gerrychu

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In g1 Pursuit Grimer allowed for me to weaken alot of Monferno checks such as Misdreavus, Grumpig off the U-Turn from Monferno. I've never clicked Slack Off on Monferno so I do think Thunder punch/Mach punch/Rock Slide fits the 4th slot better. A bit Fraxure weak if you don't get the burn with Wishiwashi, Gerrychu had the chance to spam DDs and win the game but they opted to only boost up once. In G2 I thought Krok would be good to beat bulky Psychics and chip ghosts for Arbok to clean up. It also could get pursuit chip on Stunfisk as it forces it out, allowing Arbok to beat it with one boost. I was punished for PhyDef Wishiwashi destroyed by Huntail, which did punch holes in my team. Gunk Shot miss was rough since Krok would have revenged with Stone Edge if it hit and there was still a game to play but those happen. In G3 I loaded Demon Duosion, which is really cool if you can get rid of the dark types and chip the Steels. Colbur Trevenant was my mon of choice to lure dark types, which could trade with all aside from Vullaby. The Stunfisk/Wishiwashi/Poison defensive core comes out again which I think is really strong into many of the HO structures people are running. In the game Trevanant got rid of the opposing Krok allowing Duosion to set up and win.

WEEK 2 VS Heatranator

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In the first game I tried an Webs team with less broken abusers than the standard Simisage Monferno Huntail etc. Lunatone as an offensive rocker on webs teams is really cool since its coverage is good and it is able to OHKO alot of offensive mons which are now slower due to the speed drop. Electroweb on Leavanny made it so stuff like Monferno couldn't set up in my face and clean up my team if it got in before the sticky web, and it really helped vs the Buttefree Heatran bought. Not a fan of z move whiscash since gourg can fisk to spot the item, and if I went back I would have made Raticate have sucker punch as that would have helped vs the Fraxure. In game 2 a hazard stack with alot of phasing was bought. Silvally-Electric feels very underrated with strong boltbeam coverage allowing it to really pressure teams with special walls like Wishiwashi and Stunfisk. Game 3 used the defensive core of Gourg/Wishi/Poison/Stunfisk which allows you to cover alot of the metagame defensively.



WEEK 3 VS Missangelic
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Missangelic had loaded a bunch of lead Monferno, and I wanted something to punish that lead and give me the head start. Taunt Oricorio is able to shut down lead Monferno. It was nice to shut down tentacool's tspikes, and I ended up getting lucky with shed skin turns. The second team was bought because I hadn't used much HO so I felt Ditto into me didn't make much sense. Huntail + Webs is almost unstoppable, unfortunately Miss loaded Protect Hp Grass Wishiwashi which was able to stop it. I was Wild Charge on Zebstrika rather than thunderbolt to pressure Swoobat better, which made the endgame tougher into Solrock. G3 team was a bunch of Volt-Turn with Furfrou luring it Steels and Rocks for Monferno to revenge. Simisage showed how good it could be taking out Metang allowing Furfrou to break with there being no more normal resists left.


WEEK 4 VS DoomBre1oom

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Doom spammed HO in the early weeks, so I decided to completely Cteam him with Trick Room. It's a bit janky and has some rough match ups like Alolan Grimer and Cacturne but it ended up working out well. I think the coolest part of this team was OTR Duosion, it hits really hard and I think it can exist on teams without other Trick Room support. For team 2 I loaded the Goat 6 in my eyes, because I think this is one of the best teams one can build. Gourgeist/Wishiwashi/Stunfisk/Alolan-Grimer defensive core is able to check a lot of stuff teams throw at it. Simisage is one of the better breakers and Monferno is great speed control. The defensive core was able to handle the HO doom threw at it and it was a comfortable win.

WEEK 5 VS DoomBre1oom

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My prep last week was mostly focused on checking the HO threats that Doom had been spamming, this week I wanted to focus on covering the stuff that would beat me, in my self scout I noticed that there was a lack of hazard control outside of Silvally, which can easily be chipped. So I either wanted hazard control with longevity, my own hazards where I can force my opponent to clear them all or play with mine up, or to win the game with set up spam so hazards doesn't matter. The first team uses fast Quil with 0 attacks which is really cool for pressuring teams with phasing, taunt, hazards and longevity. Persian is a really cool anti-offense mon with a strong fake out and speed tier to mess up with the set up sweepers. Rolling it into BU scraggy was a bit scary but hazards + offensive pressure kept it in check. Team 2 was another HO. I wanted to use SD Monferno because it really annoyed me that everyone was loading Rocks Monferno on their HO when it's one of the more threatening set up sweepers. Sub Salac Simisage was another mon I wanted to try, while it has worse coverage it gives it a much better match up into offensive teams. Swoobat took over the game before any of these mons could do anything and secured the tournament win.


Below are a bunch more teams which I considered bringing but didn't due to something popping up in scout/not feeling the team.


Fighting + Future Sight is always a good combination, alongside regenerator for longevity. Mienfoo felt pretty bad here. Vally-Grass was mainly to fit in a ground resist defogger which wasn't Vibrava which I am not a fan of.


The final team I used vs Miss was this, just Gogoat > Simisage. I tried hard to make BU Gogoat work but 4mss is rough and finding a good ev spread so u can sub on stuff like Gourg takes away from speed allowing u to sub on status or Spdef to have better bulk on the defence you cant boost.


Earlier version of the webs I used vs Miss. Roar offensive Gabite is good into other HO's by not being set up fodder for stuff like kee berry swoobat.

V1 V2
Made the initial Tspikes version for week 4 as Doom hadn't ran many Poisons up to that point, switched to the second version after he had loaded a grounded poisons in his last 6 games for week 5.


Another version of the GOAT 6, only swapped around some evs on Fisk and Wishiwashi, and the Z move on Simisage. I think this version is worse but goes to show the flexibility of these mons to cover alot of the meta.

 

[doom]

As the VR is set to come out soon, I would like to go a little more in-depth on some of the mons/trends I feel strongly about that may not align with the general consensus, are receiving big drops/raises in the VR, or are just relevant enough to discuss with the general playerbase.

The Electrics Pivots
Often times when it comes to rankings for this tier, I struggle with the placements of these 4 mons. Prior to this tournament, I would probably lean more towards Zebstrika -> Electrode -> Electabuzz -> Silvally-Electric, but it has seen a bit of a shake-up, especially with some of the bans.

I still believe Zebstrika is the best option when it comes to Electric-type pivots in the tier and I think it rightfully deserves a spot in the A rank. It is the naturally fastest our of the this group and outspeeds key mons, such as Simisage, Swoobat, and Furfrou. It is also a nice Z-Move user with its access to Overheat, which let it not get stuffed by some of the prominent Grass-type walls in the tier and even allow it to opt for different Hidden Power move, such as water, to further expand its coverage. One of the neat optimizations I have seen to Zebstrika is running Wild Charge over Thunderbolt to be able to outspeed and KO Swoobat, without worrying about it stacking Calm Mind boosts and running away with the game. Its immunity to either Grass-type moves or Electric-type moves is also a great addition.

Electrode has seen the biggest decrease in value over the past year or two from some of the bans we have had. It was a great screen setter before Light Clay was banned, a great alternate rain setter before Damp Rock was banned, and it was used as decent counterplay to Huntail before ban because it could outspeed and KO Adamant Huntail. This makes the speed difference between Electrode and Zebstrika worthless typically and it doesn't have any significant distinguishing factors as of now.

Electabuzz is neat as a bulkier Electric-type pivot with Eviolite, but it really doesn't distinguish itself over Zebstrika in many relevant ways. It has Focus Blast, but it won't get as great of use as Overheat and it is a decent scarf user, but nothing to ride home about. It is still a great mon with a place in the metagame, but it has just taken a back seat, especially now that you do not need Scarf Electabuzz as a Huntail counter.

Silvally-Electric has the standard Silvally package of Defog, U-Turn, and Parting shot, but it has key coverage options for an electric type that make it stand out. It has Ice Beam, whcih is nice as a Grass-type counter that is not one of the Hidden Power moves and it being spammable, unlike Overheat. It has Surf which acts as great coverage for Camerupt, who is one of the best Rockers and Volt Blockers in the tier. The only problem it typically faces is the lack of speed relative to the former 3 pivots, it being your teams Silvally of choice, and it not having item access. I think the pros outweigh the cons in most circumstances because this level of coverage and role compression are hard to find in many mons.

With that being said, I believe the new pecking order of the pivots is Zebstrika -> Silvally-Electric -> Electabuzz -> Electrode

Trevenant

If you kept up with the tour, you would know I am one of Trevenants biggest supporters. It was one of my most used mons when I first started in this tier 2 years ago, and I recently had great success in this past tournament. I used it as a Z-Forest's Curse mon that could just outright win me some games when its key checks didn't show or were knocked out early. It having access to STAB Horn Leech for recovery, STAB Shadow Claw for Gourgeist and solid coverage with EQ for Swalot and Grimer-Alolan made it a super imposing omnibooster. It can get walled by bulky grass-types like Meganium and Gogoat, but those hardly show and you could always run Poison Jab over Shadow Claw. My bias really wanted me to label it as an S- mon, but I am content with it being A+ for the time being, seeing as it is still a nice leap from its previous A placement.

Ninjask

It is hard putting a sweeper high in the rankings that is 4x rock weak, but it can be a really threatening sweeping fish against teams that have holes in their teambuilding or don't know how to play around it effectively. You need to make sure you have sound hazard removal in place and find a mon that won't one shot it to set-up in front of, but if it gets going, very little stop it consistently with Groundium-Z and nice recovery from Leech Life. It definitely deserves a raise in ranking to be ranked as an SU mon, but nothing consistent enough to see for such a large raise in its ranking.

Relicanth

I am a big Relicanth enthusiast and I am glad to see it potentially see more use now that Huntail has been sent to the Shadow Realm. It has always been a solid rocker that can check key offensive mons, such as Furfrou, and it can threaten almost every other rocker with access to Water- and Rock-type stabs and Earthquake. It can now fit on teams as a Rock Polish sweeper now that Huntail does not outclass it and I really think it could see some nice usage. It still struggles into the Grass-type walls of the tier, but it can get out of hand if you build your team right around it. It rightfully will see a decent bump from its pitiful C rank and will be labeled as an SU mon for the forseeable future.

 

[missangelic]

It's time for SM SU Summer 2025 VR update now that the SM SU Discord 2025 tour (won by Michael Jordan) has been done for a couple weeks. Here's what's changed:

New Visual + Slate Link

Slate link

Rises

A+ to S:
A to S-:
A to A+:
A- to A:
B+ to A:
B+ to A-:
B to A:
B to A-:
B to B+:
B- to B:
C+ to B:
C+ to B-:
C to B:
C to C+:

Additions

UR to C+:
UR to C:
UR to C-:

Drops

S to A: (-Large)
A to A-:
A- to B+:
B+ to B: (-Small)
B to B-:
B- to C+:
B- to C:
C+ to C:
C+ to C-:
C to C-:
C to UR:
C- to UR:

No Changes

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:
UR:

I'll go over a handful of the most major changes, but reasonings are available on the voting sheet.

Major Changes

Ditto: C+ to B
Hyper offense strategies have been prevalent throughout this last year of SM SU, and we're recognizing that with a massive bump to Ditto. It's been an amazing way to reverse sweep HO teams that run nsetup sweepers like Fraxure.
Furfrou: A to S-
Furfrou has become a top dog of the tier, even if it isn't on the level of our monkey gods. Having a fast pivot that isn't Rock-weak and threatens Simisage is premium right now, and many teams become better with Furfrou on them. Its ability to keep up momentum against a lot of our flawed answers to Normal-types by using U-turn makes it a major threat both in the builder and in play. We have a good collection of Pursuit trappers to support it too between Grimer-A and Murkrow.
Gourgeist-Large: S to A
Gourgeist-L is no longer seen as one of the top Pokemon of the tier, and the tier has shifted in a direction revolving more around Simisage, Monferno, and Wishiwashi all forming an iron triangle around themselves. There's a huge amount of competition for Grass-type slots on teams even outside of Simisage, as Meganium, Shiinotic, Trevenant, and Quilladin are all solid options in the tier right now. Stacking Grass-types is quite tricky in the tier as well, as Poison-types like Silvally-Poison, Grimer-A and Swalot are all quite common.
Misdreavus: B to A
Misdreavus has been recognized for a lot of its great qualities, including its useful immunities, Nasty Plot for sweeping, and a solid enough Speed tier to get the jump on Monferno. Misdreavus has been slept on for a bit, partially because of its difficult matchup against Alolan Grimer, but there are ways for it to navigate around it with Will-O-Wisp and support from Swalot and other of Alolan Grimer's checks.
Monferno: A+ to S
If you're building a team in SM SU, there's a strong chance you'll end up fitting Monferno somewhere on your team. I believe it was DoomBre1oom who said that there were more Monferno sets than SU players... but that somewhat checks out. Swords Dance, Choice Scarf, lead, and offensive pivot sets are all fantastic, and you can even get away with bulkier sets or Nasty Plot. Mach Punch is a fantastic stopgap to a lot of dangerous offensive Pokemon, warping the tier more around setup sweepers that are less vulnerable to being picked off by Fighting-type moves.
Relicanth: C to B
Relicanth has been recognized as a legitimate offensive tank and solid Stealth Rock setter thanks to its good offensive matchups against the tier's hazard removers, commonly Silvally-Poison. The secondary Water STAB helps Relicanth threaten Monferno and Ground-types, and it hits like a truck with STAB Head Smash.
Shuckle: C+ to B:
Hyper offensive strategies have been crystallizing lately, and Shuckle is one of the faces of its many styles in Sticky Web. Removing entry hazards is a pain in SM SU, and we have plenty of Ghost-types and fast Taunt users to ensure that Sticky Web will stay up.
Silvally-Electric: B to A-
There's a lot of Electric-type and Silvally competition in SM SU, but Silvally-Electric distinguishes itself as the one with the best specially offensive coverage. U-turn is a nice change of pace that lets Silvally-Electric keep up momentum against Ground-types like Stunfisk, and its colorful coverage is instrumental for beating typical Electric-type counterplay in the tier. We're bumping it up to recognize that it's more on the level of Electabuzz than we considered prior.
Simisage: A+ to S
Like Monferno, Simisage has become the monkey god of SM SU. Nasty Plot and Z-Move sets can quickly blow through counterplay like Grimer-A and Silvally-Poison with prior damage, and Simisage can wreak havoc on much of the tier thanks to its incredible Speed getting it the jump on most of the unboosted metagame. Physically offensive and Choice Scarf sets are fantastic as well, but Simisage's ascendancy from its NP set has driven metagame elements like Metang, Camerupt, and Zebstrika to rise with it.
Swoobat: B+ to A
This should be obvious from the fact that there was a voting slate on it, but Swoobat has established itself as one of the most threatening sweepers in the tier with Z-Moves and Berry sweeper sets at its disposal. Even Alolan Grimer can fail to hold it back after getting worn down, and trending revenge killers like Persian can also struggle to finish it off if it has Defense boosts.

Thanks to the SM SU council, now including Valerie, for joining me for this!