Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

[UltraSword]

As for the Zap/Molt take, I can’t even understand it. They’re both bulky enough to do their job well, as evidenced by their continued success and tenure in this tier. Being forced to use boots is not the end of the world, they’re quite fast for the defensive pokemon they tend to be and even if they weren’t… why is that relevant? They’re doing their defensive duty well.

I would even argue you don't have to run boots on Zapdos if you have the right support. It is only 2x weak to rock so it can come in more often than Moltres could without boots and due to that it can afford to run leftovers or rocky helmet which I think is quite useful in this tier considering physical pivoters are quite common in this tier. Meowscarada, Cinderace, Wogerpon, (Choice Scarf) Hamurott, and Corviknight already hate Zapdos for the potential to get paralyzed when they click their precious U-Turn/Flip Turn so the extra chip from rocky helmet is all the more useful.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

yeah let's go ahead and change the subject

i've had this question bouncing around in my head for a while and i wanted to ask everyone:

what are your hottest positive and negative viability-related takes?

i.e., what's the most obscure low-tier mon that everyone thinks is garbage but you think is great? and what's the biggest meta mon that everyone thinks is great but you think is garbage?

Maushold and Hydrapple are OU. Maushold as a sweeper is something I've been leaning more into as of late outside of just an encore bot, and it seriously rocks. I've had great success with a unique TB set up for it and it's been preforming outstandingly well. I need to tinker the team more before I share, but I love this thing.

Hydrapple is a mon that quite literally never feels bad to use. Its powerful, bulky, and god you can run so many sets on it. Big fan of Modest Life Orb recently, absolutely blows up things

 

[mcribs]

yeah let's go ahead and change the subject

i've had this question bouncing around in my head for a while and i wanted to ask everyone:

what are your hottest positive and negative viability-related takes?

i.e., what's the most obscure low-tier mon that everyone thinks is garbage but you think is great? and what's the biggest meta mon that everyone thinks is great but you think is garbage?

Ok so for my low tier mon it'll be fezandipiti, volcanion, and hydrapple. These guys have insane amount of defensive utility, with Fezan checking rai val and bolt, volcanion sits on alo and being a wisp bot vs stuff like gambit, and hydrapple checking wellspring and zama
https://pokepast.es/1f5bf70c63085f92
These are the sets im using atm here. These guys could potentially be a solid core for a lot of teams rn.

For my imo garbo mon, its glowking icl. At least the chilly sets. AV im on the fence about. Glowking a lot of the time gets overwhelmed extremely quickly, and barely stays alive for another attacker. In addition, with so many sweepers having coverage or brute force against glowking, a lot of the time it can just die and be a glorified sack. Its pretty predictable when majority of the time it clicks chilly and has to get sent back in anyways further chunking it hard. And while its typing is solid, it ends up thudding into stuff like treads and kingambit depending on one single coverage move since sludge bomb chilly and psychic move are locked in, so you can end up losing to both

 

[Whaloob]

Not actually garbage: Serperior, Jirachi, Thund-T, Blaziken, and Washtom. I don’t really feel like discussing all 5 in depth, but to sum up, all 5 of these either are proficient para spreaders that also abuse para effectively themselves in a meta where para is incredibly good (Serp, Rachi) or adept progress makers that tend to trade positively even if they burn out quickly, while providing utility functions (Washtom, Blaziken, Thund-T). They appreciate the meta fattening a bit and their speed tiers are more acceptable than they used to be.

Overrated: Gweezing is good but it’s not THAT good. It finds itself in mortal danger far too easily/often with its poor special defense and its fairly common weaknesses, a good chunk of the teams running around rn have at least one thing that nearly completely or completely blanks it (Ghold can be defogged on but comes in easily, Moth and Heatran come in even more easily, Pech can take it on, Ceru sets up on it, etc). It’s excellent at removing hazards, sure, but often it just lets in so much bullshit that I question why non-stall teams are bringing it over like Treads + Hatt or Corv + Ace even on greedy builds that rely heavily on solid removal.

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

As for low-tiers, I think Volcanion can annoy mola and break down many fat structures well. It is also nice at trading if boots or if you can get rocks off.

I think Garganacl is not good. Well, he is good but how to justify him over Ting-Lu? Sure, reliable recovery is great, but I’d rather have Ting-Lu massive bulk and get the most value out of it. Ting also has Ruination + Earthquake to force progress, so the lack of salt cure may not be a concern. Ting-Lu can also block volt switch and is more effective against RBolt, has spikes, whirlwind is nice anti-cheese etc;

 

[Moyashi]

Garganacl isn’t just a Salt Cure machine, it’s able to function as a wincon as well between various versions of ID and Curse sets which are very potent once key threats are removed and the opponent can no longer damage it significantly. It’s generally able to soft check many set physical set up threats with these boosting sets of its own, since Salt Cure lets it win the race by applying additional pressure and then using its second attack alongside it. And of course it’s a terrific status sponge for teams with generally great longevity.

 

[Hon07rial]

yeah let's go ahead and change the subject

i've had this question bouncing around in my head for a while and i wanted to ask everyone:

what are your hottest positive and negative viability-related takes?

i.e., what's the most obscure low-tier mon that everyone thinks is garbage but you think is great? and what's the biggest meta mon that everyone thinks is great but you think is garbage?

People truly underestimate how good is priority immunity.
Its huge problem tho is doing barely anything else, which makes it really hard to justify in most teams but when you find its place you really appreciate it.


I can't recall a single time I saw this alleged "broken snowball sweeper" sweeping a team before, it does although not bad but underwhelming damage initially with spe booster and if it chooses spa booster it is forced to tie with Ogerpon and becomes very revengable due to its physical fraility
I have to credit that it is quite amazing on webs but webs is not at its best right now.

 

[Hon07rial]

why male and not female?

Male is the more used one between the two (still niche), female has more bulk so it might be worth tinkering with tho.

 

[ItsScaryCary]

Male is the more used one between the two (still niche), female has more bulk so it might be worth tinkering with tho.

I'm not too familiar with Smogon formats but in my experience indeedee male is really only better than female in psyspam

 

[Hon07rial]

I'm not too familiar with Smogon formats but in my experience indeedee male is really only better than female in psyspam

| 98 | Indeedee | 1.08835% | 24447 | 1.088% | 21272 | 1.194% |
| 267 | Indeedee-F | 0.16650% | 3740 | 0.166% | 3111 | 0.175% |

Source

Edit to avoid another one-liner: Sorry for not initially explaining it.
NDDM has a more passable speed, less passivity with expanding force and encore is nice.
While on the other hand most of NDDF's support options are irrelevant in singles.
There is a point I am missing but I am way too tired to remember, other players should feel free to add it or correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[ItsScaryCary]

| 98 | Indeedee | 1.08835% | 24447 | 1.088% | 21272 | 1.194% |
| 267 | Indeedee-F | 0.16650% | 3740 | 0.166% | 3111 | 0.175% |

Source

as I said I'm not familiar with Smogon I'm trying to learn it so all my prior knowledge will come from vgc please explain why instead of just giving stats I was told here was a good place to learn and improve on my singles skills I'm sorry if I'm being hard

 

[soupeater]

as I said I'm not familiar with Smogon I'm trying to learn it so all my prior knowledge will come from vgc please explain why instead of just giving stats I was told here was a good place to learn and improve on my singles skills I'm sorry if I'm being hard

From my understanding Indeedee-F's main niche in VGC aside from setting psyterrain is sitting on the field and using doubles-only supporting moves like follow me and helping hand. In singles, as Hon07rial mentioned, it barely does anything else outside of psyterrain. This means that a) You would only ever use either Indeedee form on a psyspam team and b) If you do use it, you want it to output damage with expanding force to be able to do something while it's on the field.

 

[Welcome to mars]

1. I never gave up on manaphy, its still a skull-crushing wallbreaker that makes any defensive mon that isn’t blissey tremble upon switch in, this thing is a great substitute user since it can use the switches it forces to set up a sub, if the mon switching in doesn’t threaten to kill it after breaking its sub then it can set up tail glow and potentially KO it. Its still an extremely powerful pokemon with solid natural bulk that farms most stall teams.

2. Enamorus has fallen the hell off in my opinion, its no longer the consistent mon it once was due to the meta evolving to absolutely bully pokemon like it and its bad bulk combined with no way to boost speed without scarf makes it way too easy to revenge kill, its a miracle that it still gets enough usage to stay in OU given that its a mon that barely has anything going for it apart from stab moonblast.

 

[UltraSword]

Overrated: Gweezing is good but it’s not THAT good. It finds itself in mortal danger far too easily/often with its poor special defense and its fairly common weaknesses, a good chunk of the teams running around rn have at least one thing that nearly completely or completely blanks it (Ghold can be defogged on but comes in easily, Moth and Heatran come in even more easily, Pech can take it on, Ceru sets up on it, etc). It’s excellent at removing hazards, sure, but often it just lets in so much bullshit that I question why non-stall teams are bringing it over like Treads + Hatt or Corv + Ace even on greedy builds that rely heavily on solid removal.

Personally, I have never really liked G-Weezing. Being able to defog on Gholdengo is nice but the problem is G-Weezing can't do anything else against it. The only status it has that actually hits Gholdengo is will-o-wisp and if Gholdengo has recover or leftovers it doesn't really matter to much. G-Weezing actually learns overheat but not only is it never going to be faster than Gholdengo anyway, but it also has such cripplingly low special attack that the only way to ohko Gholdengo is if G-Weezing has max special attack (with max nature), and Gholdengo has 0 hp and special defense (and minimum nature). And even if that situtation somehow happened, it is only a 31% chance. Gholdengo can very easily just recover at that point and then overheat does nothing because of the special attack drop. Bringing Gholdengo in on G-Weezing basically gives you a free turn since you know G-Weezing will switch out and therefore can focus all of your efforts on figuring out which pokemon the opponent will bring out or even set up if you have nasty plot which is really dangerous if they don't have something like Kingambit. And when Gholdengo isn't on an opposing team there isn't much G-Weezing does that Corviknight does better aside from spreading status (which is actually pretty cool, but it isn't revolutionary). I agree that it is overrated and maybe one day G-Weezing will be phased out of the meta.

 

[Carl The Turtle]

Personally, I have never really liked G-Weezing. Being able to defog on Gholdengo is nice but the problem is G-Weezing can't do anything else against it. The only status it has that actually hits Gholdengo is will-o-wisp and if Gholdengo has recover or leftovers it doesn't really matter to much. G-Weezing actually learns overheat but not only is it never going to be faster than Gholdengo anyway, but it also has such cripplingly low special attack that the only way to ohko Gholdengo is if G-Weezing has max special attack (with max nature), and Gholdengo has 0 hp and special defense (and minimum nature). And even if that situtation somehow happened, it is only a 31% chance. Gholdengo can very easily just recover at that point and then overheat does nothing because of the special attack drop. Bringing Gholdengo in on G-Weezing basically gives you a free turn since you know G-Weezing will switch out and therefore can focus all of your efforts on figuring out which pokemon the opponent will bring out or even set up if you have nasty plot which is really dangerous if they don't have something like Kingambit. And when Gholdengo isn't on an opposing team there isn't much G-Weezing does that Corviknight does better aside from spreading status (which is actually pretty cool, but it isn't revolutionary). I agree that it is overrated and maybe one day G-Weezing will be phased out of the meta.

are we still having "gweezing is supposed to be the hard gholdengo answer" debates in 2025

yes you give your opponent a chance to bring gholdengo in when you defog, that's one turn you give your opponent for the 1-4 you negate by removing every layer of stealth rocks + spikes they set up and they can barely do anything if you bring in gambit or ting-lu (which, you know, are both pokemon that like running leftovers and benefit from removing all the hazards that have been vomited on the field.) this interaction is barely a win for the ghold user unless they're carrying tera fighting fblast/tblast which is still a huge expense in most scenarios. you should never be trying to kill it with modest overheat weezing, that's just not what that pokemon is for.

that's even before we get into the fact that it chunks gliscor for free and is the only thing that can scare garg with status, is very solid into mixed/phys val and pult and ironpress zama, and can deal with hamurott's spikespam possibly the best out of any mon in the tier period, none of these are things that corv can do except the valiant answer (sometimes).

i'm not really thinking weez is particularly stronger or weaker than it was historically, but if it is weaker, i really need to see a better argument for it.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

glad to see everyone's takes on what mons are being overlooked right now. hard agree on most of them, especially hydrapple. that's my number 1 candidate for "mon that should be ou but isn't"

but let's go a little more extreme with it, shall we?

are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use

 

[KamenOH]

anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use

Bisharp, and I even get why it isn't used. It's a Kingambit without the King or the Gambit, but it can run Defiant Eviolite shenanagins, and also it'a my favorite mon. I have to throw it a bone, even if I can accept that it isn't realistically going to be tiered OU.

Some shit isn't OU but has its use in it. Let me dream.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Bisharp, and I even get why it isn't used. It's a Kingambit without the King or the Gambit, but it can run Defiant Eviolite shenanagins, and also it'a my favorite mon. I have to throw it a bone, even if I can accept that it isn't realistically going to be tiered OU.

Some shit isn't OU but has its use in it. Let me dream.

i've actually experimented with running evio bisharp and gambit together to keep gambit healthy for the late game while still having a dark/steel with gambit-like bulk and a respectable damage output for the earlier game. that way you can still check most of the stuff gambit checks throughout a match while preserving a full-hp gambit in the back as your wincon. never really worked out but maybe in the hands of a better player than me it could have potential. sure you stack weaknesses but you can just tera the gambit in the endgame

 

[soupeater]

are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use

Jirachi used to be at the bottom of the VR but I think it could still put in solid work as a support mon if people found the right set and it was on the right team. It basically has the support movepool of clefable or mew but as a steel type paired with better stats across the board including a much better speed tier, and being able to outspeed and ohko tusk with psychic STAB and spatk investment is really nice. Treads is probably a better steel type rocker in most ways but I feel like theres still probably ways to make it work.

 

[658Greninja]

are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use

Don’t think there will be another situation like that again. SV OU’s power creep is insane to the point where defensive niches from lower tiers are rare. So you have to look at the offensive side of things.

If you wanna be technical, Ninetales is all the way in ZU and that’s the go-to Sun setter lol.

 

[Avira]

Don’t think there will be another situation like that again. SV OU’s power creep is insane to the point where defensive niches from lower tiers are rare. So you have to look at the offensive side of things.

If you wanna be technical, Ninetales is all the way in ZU and that’s the go-to Sun setter lol.

Ninetales is ZU 'cause Drought was banned in PU, and realistically, Ninetales is not going to rise to OU anyway even if sun improved as an archetype given it has to compete with Torkoal for a slot with their combined usage totally just above the cutoff but still quite far from being OU individually.

If anything is going to rise back to OU from NU or below, it'd be Ninetales-Alola if someone can make a really strong Veil team that isn't Cinderace food and doesn't have too many bad match-ups and makes a RMT of it. Otherwise if nothing else, I can see it being a Webs setter in the future if Webs starts picking up as a playstyle again, but the meta would have to significantly shift before that happens, and it'd dependent on a very convincing RMT.

 

[Magcargo]

glad to see everyone's takes on what mons are being overlooked right now. hard agree on most of them, especially hydrapple. that's my number 1 candidate for "mon that should be ou but isn't"

but let's go a little more extreme with it, shall we?

are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use

I used Glastrier earlier today. It did struggle a bit vs a few cores but what I noticed is that most team's didnt really have a safe switch-in to the mon itself- they just had to predict and try pivoting around its moves, which are interactions that it can take advantage of.

I feel this mon is underexplored - its got a good toolkit and those stats are still insane by OU standards. Ice coverage is tough to swap into and it has a few good entry points. It's 1v1 mus also arent bad.

Not saying its ZU -> OU material, but I think it has a niche.

 

[UltraSword]

glad to see everyone's takes on what mons are being overlooked right now. hard agree on most of them, especially hydrapple. that's my number 1 candidate for "mon that should be ou but isn't"

but let's go a little more extreme with it, shall we?

are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use

Realistically the only 2 pokemon that I think even have a chance are A-Ninetales and Barraskweda. Ninetales sets snow (which is good for Kyurem even if Glowking does the same thing) and aurora veil while Barraskewda is a fantastic rain sweeper (this is only happening if rain somehow becomes really good again and even then).

 

[ausma]

glad to see everyone's takes on what mons are being overlooked right now. hard agree on most of them, especially hydrapple. that's my number 1 candidate for "mon that should be ou but isn't"

but let's go a little more extreme with it, shall we?

are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use

Personally, I think Alolan Ninetales. It is the best screens setter in a metagame where screens offense is beginning to excel, in addition to having really nice intrinsic utility in fast Encore and being a rare Kyurem check. I think there’s a lot of potential for it as a setter in general (for both Snow and screens) which could be useful in niche Snow compositions not heavily explored or as an additional tool for other forms of HO, such as Sticky Web.

Another Pokemon I think has a lot of potential is Cresselia. It’s extremely bulky and has access to the highly coveted Tera + Levitate combo alongside ludicrous mixed bulk and an avenue for setup. Setup could be strong, but I feel as though there’s potential in a utility based or offensive Choice Scarf set with Lunar Dance, Trick Room (which saw a bit of success in OLT), and just general disruptive walling with Thunder Wave in tow. Its fundamentals could let it see an explosive renaissance like it had in SM OU. Obviously this may be a pipe dream but given the spirit of this question, I think Cresselia is the kind of Pokemon that fits. Generally, once it sees success, people explore its deep set of options by merit of its insane fundamentals.

 

[Hon07rial]

glad to see everyone's takes on what mons are being overlooked right now. hard agree on most of them, especially hydrapple. that's my number 1 candidate for "mon that should be ou but isn't"

but let's go a little more extreme with it, shall we?

are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use

This thing is broken, it feels like it is always two clicks away from winning, if sun gets more usage you can expect it to be the first to rise to OU.


If the meta continues to find ways to bother Gholdengo which is this girl's biggest problem, it might be able to find back its footing but I am doubtful that will happen anytime soon.


Both of these are reliant on a factor that's possible but improbable so I won't hold my breath but they do have a chance.