Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

[VerySuboptimal]

yeah let's go ahead and change the subject

i've had this question bouncing around in my head for a while and i wanted to ask everyone:

what are your hottest positive and negative viability-related takes?

i.e., what's the most obscure low-tier mon that everyone thinks is garbage but you think is great? and what's the biggest meta mon that everyone thinks is great but you think is garbage?

Definitely super niche weirdo mon but I'm shocked no one uses Zapdos-Galar. Especially choice band. I ran this unserious team a few months ago and got 1900s easily. A better team could for sure do really nicely.

Gapdos' typing means it can be a choice user not afraid of rocks or spikes, making it a great fit on offense teams without hazard control and boots spam. Its bulk is surprisingly decent, similar to regular zapdos so it can take a hit or two in a pinch. For all the speed creep this gen, base 100 still feels good. Also flying is a great offensive type when unprepared for, as demonstrated by the rise in torn-t. Knock lets it hammer its two best checks in zapdos and defensive ghold. Obviously this isnt a staple OU mon, or even in the B- zone but unranked and completely unexplored surprises me, especially since it was decent last gen.

 

[pika pal]

Gapdos is a mon that in a vacuum feels plenty capable of making strides in OU given its really good type coverage into a lot of the top-cut mons (Gambit, Tusk, Ting-Lu, and Zama all hate the 1v1, Ogerpon and Ghold don't want to come in on a STAB or Knock respectively, Lando-T lacks any progress-maker beyond a 3HKO with Offensive Stone Edge and can't Intimidate), with its STAB combo only resisted by Gholdengo and Kanto-Zapdos in the tier right now.

Its role differs substantially from Zapdos, but I continue to think it'd at least make the C/B zone if it didn't come with the opportunity cost of restricting K-Zapdos due to species clause, given how useful the latter's typing and Static are into soft-checking a lot of Sweepers and Breakers.

 

[JackRG]

Definitely super niche weirdo mon but I'm shocked no one uses Zapdos-Galar. Especially choice band. I ran this unserious team a few months ago and got 1900s easily. A better team could for sure do really nicely.

Gapdos' typing means it can be a choice user not afraid of rocks or spikes, making it a great fit on offense teams without hazard control and boots spam. Its bulk is surprisingly decent, similar to regular zapdos so it can take a hit or two in a pinch. For all the speed creep this gen, base 100 still feels good. Also flying is a great offensive type when unprepared for, as demonstrated by the rise in torn-t. Knock lets it hammer its two best checks in zapdos and defensive ghold. Obviously this isnt a staple OU mon, or even in the B- zone but unranked and completely unexplored surprises me, especially since it was decent last gen.

I used this mon a good bit in gen 8 and I'm quite the fan, but I've tried it a bit in gen 9 and have struggled to make anything super good with it. It doesn't even feel bad when I use it, just impossible to slap on a team. It's heinous vulnerably to contact effects is a notable downside, especially on the choice band set from last gen. Heal Bell's distribution getting put in the gutter is also tragic for this mon, as you can't slap it onto guys like clef, mew, and dnite (god I miss when this mon was honest) which would help get around this. Now it's pretty much just blissey or bust which has awkward synergy with gzap to say the least. Choice Band can still work and I'm sure if I put my mind to it I could eventually make a good team with it, but heres another set I think has potential

Zapdos-Galar @ Protective Pads
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Dark / Steel / Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunderous Kick / Close Combat
- Brave Bird / Drill Peck
- Knock Off
- Taunt / U-Turn

This set has a pretty simple concept lol, pads allow you to spam your stabs without those dumbass birds ruining your life while not getting punished for clicking your flying stab aganist something like Corviknight. Brave Bird is still the go to Drill Peck is a decent alternative, especially paired with tera flying to help make up for the power drop. Knock off is to hit Ghold, Zapdos, and Moltres obv. The last slot is either for taunt to deny recovery from Zapdos to help break through them later, but U-Turn is also a good option to pivot, especially since Thunderous Kick's defensive drops can force a lot of awkward switches.

Maybe scarf is decent too but I mean scarfers feel ass this gen with the exception of stuff thats already really fast like darkrai

 

[toshimelonhead]

glad to see everyone's takes on what mons are being overlooked right now. hard agree on most of them, especially hydrapple. that's my number 1 candidate for "mon that should be ou but isn't"

but let's go a little more extreme with it, shall we?

are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use

Vikavolt - the webs setter that actually scares you.

427 Special Attack with max investment is no joke and it has a really solid matchup into other bulky special walls such as Ting-Lu and hazard removers such as Great Tusk and Corviknight can't do much either. Araquanid does have a solid matchup into these same threats, but in my ladder testing Vikavolt has been more impressive. Tera Ghost on here also works as a pseudo spinblocker.


Vikavolt (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Volt Switch
- Energy Ball
- Bug Buzz

The Speed EVs here creep on Ting-Lu.

An honorable mention in this category is Diancie. Its typing gives it a nice base to handle most if not all the standard Dragapult sets and can also manage other threats in a pinch. My personal favorite OU set for it is a tanky Custap Berry set. Most of SV OU is strong enough to put on enough pressure where Resttalk and defensive sweeping sets don't work without major team support. This set is more plug and play because Diancie can almost always last long enough to activate Custap, but not do much outside of a surprise attack. The beauty of this set is it doesn't push Diancie beyond its natural limits. It can set hazards, chip as much as it can, and then smack the next threat trying to revenge kill it. The EV spread here is for Iron Moth on the physical side and Kyurem post Stealth Rock on the special side. Diamond Storm defense boosts are nice, but not necessary for this set to work. It also helps to keep hazard chip in mind to switch it out and preserve it later in the game once it's in Custap range to revenge a sweeper. A 30% health Diancie can become a 24% health Diancie later in the match post hazards and that can be the difference between a sack or a savior.


Diancie @ Custap Berry
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 224 HP / 100 Atk / 184 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock

184+ SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 294-348 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (OHKO after Rocks)
100 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lower tier mons don't need to sweep to have value on an OU team, but several of them can play really solid support roles in hazard setup, hazard removal, or sniping a unique threat that is otherwise impossible to handle. "Safe" OU players generally stick to the same 40 threats, and for tournament play this is probably good advice. The dropoff between #40 and #140 in quality though is much smaller than what it seems. There are a lot of gems in lower tiers that can play a niche role. Good places to find them are high value pick Draft League mons (use the Low Tier board especially for this) and anything that got banned in a lower tier because those bans don't happen on a whim. They will never be cornerstones for a serious OU team, but I have been really impressed with lower tier pokemon filling in gaps that only they could fill.

(And yes I have used both to win tournament matches but I'm not putting opponents on blast.)

 

[Achohermano]

glad to see everyone's takes on what mons are being overlooked right now. hard agree on most of them, especially hydrapple. that's my number 1 candidate for "mon that should be ou but isn't"

but let's go a little more extreme with it, shall we?

are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use

I know this is ban dependant, but if, at any moment, Gliscor gets banned, Alolan Muk is gonna pop off a lot in this metagame. Nothing in the entire tier likes to switch to a Poison Touch Knock Off, has Drain Punch for Kingambit and the Poison Touch means it makes progress aganist Tusk, Ting Lu, Moltres, Zapdos or Alo, even if it gets crippled in the process.

I've had a lot of success with Alolan Muk in the past as I've shown in this thread, and I'm 100% sure it can be OU material given the (possible, kinda likely if waterpon gets banned) circumstances

 

[PastaMechKaku]

Vikavolt - the webs setter that actually scares you.

427 Special Attack with max investment is no joke and it has a really solid matchup into other bulky special walls such as Ting-Lu and hazard removers such as Great Tusk and Corviknight can't do much either. Araquanid does have a solid matchup into these same threats, but in my ladder testing Vikavolt has been more impressive. Tera Ghost on here also works as a pseudo spinblocker.


Vikavolt (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Volt Switch
- Energy Ball
- Bug Buzz

The Speed EVs here creep on Ting-Lu.

Yooooo. Great minds think alike

Given the webs discussion earlier, I would like to pitch a different webs setter than the usual two suspects: Vikavolt.

Vikavolt @ Custap Berry/ Focus Sash/ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel/ Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Volt Switch
- Energy Ball
- Endure/ Bug Buzz / Flash Cannon

With its tool kit and offensive/defensive profile, Vikavolt is not only good at setting webs, but can also serve as a good utility 'mon thanks to functioning as a slow pivot while still being able to box with various lead 'mons (the given EV spread allows Energy Ball to have a 75% to OHKO Tusk while still retaining enough bulk to live stuff such as Landorus-T's Stone Edge). Endure + Custap is pretty standard for slow hard hitters, but if you're greedy like how I was, you can slot in Buzz or Flash Cannon so it can chunk certain threats (Buzz for Ting-Lu/Moon/Darkrai or Flash Cannon for Kyurem) with either a Focus Sash to still ensure Webs or Boots to leverage its pivoting potential. I like Tera Steel because it + Levitate is an undefeated combo, but Tera Ghost allows for emergency spin-blocking if you value webs more.
The main downside compared to Araquanid is that you don't eviscerate things like Lando and Gliscor and there are more things that can OHKO Vika like Dracos from Specs Pult due to the lower Special bulk. Still, I think this 'mon has promise, but I don't think I managed to tap into its potential since I'm not used to building for Webs teams (I started out with a Modest nature because I was greedy and wanted it to hit stuff harder) so maybe someone more experienced than me can try to see if it has the juice. I have no illusions of it being better than Araq or even Ribombee, but I'd like to think it could be an option for Webs teams.

Edit: I think I found a more optimal EV spread:

EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 112 SpA / 60 SpD
Modest Nature

I focused a bit more on bulk for my build to allow for greater item flexibility while still being able to put Tusk in the dirt. I never manged to build a team that could make the zapper bug shine, but I did run into people on ladder who clicked Headlong Rush on Vikavolt so that was fun experience.

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

What do you feel about weakness policy Ting-Lu? With attack investment it can surprise many that think it can beat it, and it helps with trading against certain threats.

 

[pika pal]

What do you feel about weakness policy Ting-Lu? With attack investment it can surprise many that think it can beat it, and it helps with trading against certain threats.

The problem I see there is that Ting-Lu has a hard time maintaining momentum once it surprises the first target, due to its low speed and pretty exploitable weakness list which makes taking REPEATED hits a tall order.

Ting-Lu is very good at interrupting certain mons but it doesn't seem the type that's equipped to stay on the field against multiple opponents, so much as block certain ones to help you position yourself.

 

[memester]

What do you feel about weakness policy Ting-Lu? With attack investment it can surprise many that think it can beat it, and it helps with trading against certain threats.

I think Weakness Policy Ting-Lu has a place on more offensive teams where it doesn't have as much trouble maintaining momentum after surprising the opponent because it isn't expected to stay in the field for long, like the sample team featuring it.

 

[toshimelonhead]

I think Weakness Policy Ting-Lu has a place on more offensive teams where it doesn't have as much trouble maintaining momentum after surprising the opponent because it isn't expected to stay in the field for long, like the sample team featuring it.

I get why it works in theory, but I don't see the need for it in practice. It has better roles in this metagame by setting up hazards and absorbing attacks when sweepers are a dime a dozen and rock solid walls are at a premium.

As for Alolan-Muk - it's an incredible special tank in lower levels. My experience with it in higher levels is it struggles to 2HKO targets that it has the profile to handle and this cripples its upside. The set I run below is what I would run in SV OU to check Gholdengo and Dragapult, but the EV spread could use some optimization.


Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Adamant Nature
Tera Type: Fire
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 128 HP / 140 Atk / 240 SpD
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Shadow Sneak
- Fire Punch

140+ Atk Muk-Alola Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 100-118 (25 - 29.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 158-186 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 142-168 (37 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[memester]

I get why it works in theory, but I don't see the need for it in practice. It has better roles in this metagame by setting up hazards and absorbing attacks when sweepers are a dime a dozen and rock solid walls are at a premium.

As for Alolan-Muk - it's an incredible special tank in lower levels. My experience with it in higher levels is it struggles to 2HKO targets that it has the profile to handle and this cripples its upside. The set I run below is what I would run in SV OU to check Gholdengo and Dragapult, but the EV spread could use some optimization.


Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Adamant Nature
Tera Type: Fire
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 128 HP / 140 Atk / 240 SpD
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Shadow Sneak
- Fire Punch

140+ Atk Muk-Alola Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 100-118 (25 - 29.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 158-186 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 142-168 (37 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I understand what you're saying and quite frankly Weakness Policy Ting-Lu is niche compared to most typical sets but my point was that Weakness Policy Ting Lu has a niche on more offensive fast paced teams less reliant on switching by catching would-be attackers off guard and surprise with its often-overlooked attack stat.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Fair enough and I probably should have quoted the original Ting-Lu Weakness Policy question instead of your response. It honestly could work. My guess you have made it work in practice. The opportunity cost though is very high. Giving up your item to bait the equivalent of a Swords Dance is a tough sell. It does break Corviknight at +2 with Payback which is impressive, but even then for offensive teams I don't know if this is worth the opportunity cost. It certainly could work, but teambuilding in SV OU is so compressed that it's hard to argue this is worth it.

+2 252+ Atk Ting-Lu Payback (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 222-262 (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[658Greninja]

Though I am not enjoying this meta (Dnite and Wellspring are stupid and laddering SV OU has gotten boring since the OLT cycles ended), I’d like to give a shoutout to Scizor, who I think is at its peak rn.

Though Scizor doesn’t appreciate certain trends (Zapdos’ popularity being one such trend), Lefties Roost Fairy Blast Dnite and Kyurem are monsters that terrorize many common builds, but Scizor shuts them down. Scizor also has superb synergy with other offensive threats, forcing Knock Off on key targets like Zap/Molt/Lando/Corv and pivoting on them.

The best Scizor partners either abuse many of the mons Scizor lures in, or continue the Voltturn vortex.



CB Scizor is also one of the best mons at pressuring offenses. Fairy is a common type, and offense tends to have few safe switch-ins into Scizor’s moves. Usually their switch-ins are Lando/Tusk, but chipping them down works in favor of the Scizor user.

SD can also get some surprise kills with Tera Blast.

What are your thoughts on Scizor?

 

[JackRG]

Though I am not enjoying this meta (Dnite and Wellspring are stupid and laddering SV OU has gotten boring since the OLT cycles ended), I’d like to give a shoutout to Scizor, who I think is at its peak rn.

View attachment 770408
Though Scizor doesn’t appreciate certain trends (Zapdos’ popularity being one such trend), Lefties Roost Fairy Blast Dnite and Kyurem are monsters that terrorize many common builds, but Scizor shuts them down. Scizor also has superb synergy with other offensive threats, forcing Knock Off on key targets like Zap/Molt/Lando/Corv and pivoting on them.

The best Scizor partners either abuse many of the mons Scizor lures in, or continue the Voltturn vortex.



CB Scizor is also one of the best mons at pressuring offenses. Fairy is a common type, and offense tends to have few safe switch-ins into Scizor’s moves. Usually their switch-ins are Lando/Tusk, but chipping them down works in favor of the Scizor user.

SD can also get some surprise kills with Tera Blast.

What are your thoughts on Scizor?

Honestly, this mon feels great atm. It's bullet punch (especially with tera steel) is one most best priority users in the metagame, both in terms of super effective targets and reliability. It has solid defensive checks, but it has the ever reliable combo of knock off and uturn to get around this. Honestly has a really consistent MU spread, although I really only use CB personally. Usage will probably screw it over next shift but I hope it has enough usage to stay OU.

 

[UltraSword]

Though I am not enjoying this meta (Dnite and Wellspring are stupid and laddering SV OU has gotten boring since the OLT cycles ended), I’d like to give a shoutout to Scizor, who I think is at its peak rn.

View attachment 770408
Though Scizor doesn’t appreciate certain trends (Zapdos’ popularity being one such trend), Lefties Roost Fairy Blast Dnite and Kyurem are monsters that terrorize many common builds, but Scizor shuts them down. Scizor also has superb synergy with other offensive threats, forcing Knock Off on key targets like Zap/Molt/Lando/Corv and pivoting on them.

The best Scizor partners either abuse many of the mons Scizor lures in, or continue the Voltturn vortex.



CB Scizor is also one of the best mons at pressuring offenses. Fairy is a common type, and offense tends to have few safe switch-ins into Scizor’s moves. Usually their switch-ins are Lando/Tusk, but chipping them down works in favor of the Scizor user.

SD can also get some surprise kills with Tera Blast.

What are your thoughts on Scizor?

Heatran coming back is really good for Scizor imo because now Kyurem is going to use tera fire less on dragon dance sets and that means Scizor stocks rise quite a bit. Heatran coming back also hurts Scizor since it is a fire type that naturally outspeeds it, but the pros outweigh the cons.

 

[pixelpenguin]

AV Scizor is a great blanket check to special attackers for play styles like HO and Sun. It compresses a Kyurem /Val check with reliable slow pivots and Knocks, which is very helpful for Sun who really only needs to pivot in Wake and Co. to continue steamrolling the opponent. can handle most special attackers with the exceptions being Bolt, Iron Moth, and bulky Gholds (as well as Fairies carrying Mystical Fire like Hatt and Enam). Wisp Pult is annoying but with proper positioning Scizor at least gets to Knock it. The Kyurem and Valiant matchup is a huge selling point. Either Kyurem takes big damage from BP or it lets in a faster teammate that will force it out. Similarly, Val is forced to burn Speed Booster. Flipping the script on these two is great for offense. It unfortunately gets chipped down by hazards and Rocky Helmets but usually you just need it to handle the aforementioned special attackers once or twice and the rest of the team can get back to the offensive.

 

[thunderhmta]

when talking about these things, like AV seizor,arent they team dependent? like it sounds cool
also, holy shit a lot of people are being unbanned, welcome back Thunder Pwoell

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

Is Dragonite too much for the tier? Its dragon dance set is basically a Pandora’s box that can very easily choose its counters but it is also our best wellspring answer and multiscale is nice for emergencies

 

[Guizs]

Is Dragonite too much for the tier? Its dragon dance set is basically a Pandora’s box that can very easily choose its counters but it is also our best wellspring answer and multiscale is nice for emergencies

I don’t think Dragonite is too much for the tier right now. Its Dragon Dance sets are definitely threatening, but they also come with trade-offs. The “choose your counter” idea is true to some extent, but Dragonite can’t cover everything at once — it either drops Roost and loses lon


Multiscale is great for giving it an emergency buffer, but it’s also pretty easy to break with hazards, residual damage, or chip before it sets up. On top of that, Wellspring being such a central threat actually works both ways: yes, Dragonite is one of the better answers, but it also means people are


In short, Dragonite is a strong and flexible wincon, but not unmanageable. Proper hazard control, revenge killers, and bulky checks kee

 

[TheHalfAngel]

from personal experience, I have not used dnite at all, although I can imagine it would be fun to use. scizor is really good, banded tera steel bullet punch is simple and effective, especially with u-turn as emergency bailing out into something else, like g-slowking or clefable to sponge a hit.

 

[EpicGuy321]

you gotta try dnite bro it's goated. also the fire punch scale shot set with dice is fire (literally) (like you use tera fire lol) (and encore last move) (dd obviously too), but even roost dtail espeed eq is good and twave has seen use. maybe one day people will open their eyes to the REAL tech (Agility Special Attacking).

btw chat use AV Sylveon too it's fire. Trust me when I say, Tera Ground Mud Slap. Unironically. Acc drop is very good, and tera makes it 60BP. Pairs well with Volcanion. Remember to use Hyper Voice instead of Moonblast though because I was using Moonblast for a few days until I realized (lwk the spatk drop saved me a few times though so take that into consideration...).

 

[cat111ca]

I don’t think Dragonite is too much for the tier right now. Its Dragon Dance sets are definitely threatening, but they also come with trade-offs. The “choose your counter” idea is true to some extent, but Dragonite can’t cover everything at once — it either drops Roost and loses lon


Multiscale is great for giving it an emergency buffer, but it’s also pretty easy to break with hazards, residual damage, or chip before it sets up. On top of that, Wellspring being such a central threat actually works both ways: yes, Dragonite is one of the better answers, but it also means people are


In short, Dragonite is a strong and flexible wincon, but not unmanageable. Proper hazard control, revenge killers, and bulky checks kee

from the user's Pov: yes, Dragonite is 100% balanced
From the opponents Pov: hell no. imagine a pokemon that always has a chance to not have anything in your team beat it, no matter your team. when you use a Dragonite: there's a chance your Dragonite just easily wincons after 1 or 2 DD and there's a chance that your opponent can easily stop your Dragonite.
when you face Dragonite you have to guess the set. and if you're wrong, you've probably lost.
TL;DR: when you use Dragonite, it just seems like a lot of teams just weren't built with your Dragonite in mind. but when you face it, you have to guess the right set or probably lose.

 

[Guizs]

from the user's Pov: yes, Dragonite is 100% balanced
From the opponents Pov: hell no. imagine a pokemon that always has a chance to not have anything in your team beat it, no matter your team. when you use a Dragonite: there's a chance your Dragonite just easily wincons after 1 or 2 DD and there's a chance that your opponent can easily stop your Dragonite.
when you face Dragonite you have to guess the set. and if you're wrong, you've probably lost.
TL;DR: when you use Dragonite, it just seems like a lot of teams just weren't built with your Dragonite in mind. but when you face it, you have to guess the right set or probably lose.

I get what you mean, but I think the “guess the set or lose” argument is a little overstated. Dragonite definitely has set variety, but most of its options come with clear trade-offs:

• If it runs Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks, it’s strong offensively but loses longevity without Roost.
• If it keeps Roost, it usually drops a coverage move, which gives certain checks a much safer time against it.
• Its Tera choices are also pretty telegraphed depending on team structure — you can usually tell if it’s likely to be Tera Flying or Tera Normal.

And while Multiscale makes it threatening as a setup mon, it’s also fragile to chip damage: hazards, Knock Off, and even small bits of prior damage can take away its “free turn.” In practice, Dragonite often needs very specific conditions (hazard removal, right matchup, correct Tera timing) to actually sweep.


So yeah, sometimes you do guess wrong and it runs away with the game, but I’d argue that’s true for a lot of setup sweepers in the tier. Dragonite just feels scarier because of Multiscale + Tera, but it’s not like it’s consistently unanswerable if you play carefully.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I get what you mean, but I think the “guess the set or lose” argument is a little overstated. Dragonite definitely has set variety, but most of its options come with clear trade-offs:

• If it runs Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks, it’s strong offensively but loses longevity without Roost.
• If it keeps Roost, it usually drops a coverage move, which gives certain checks a much safer time against it.
• Its Tera choices are also pretty telegraphed depending on team structure — you can usually tell if it’s likely to be Tera Flying or Tera Normal.

And while Multiscale makes it threatening as a setup mon, it’s also fragile to chip damage: hazards, Knock Off, and even small bits of prior damage can take away its “free turn.” In practice, Dragonite often needs very specific conditions (hazard removal, right matchup, correct Tera timing) to actually sweep.


So yeah, sometimes you do guess wrong and it runs away with the game, but I’d argue that’s true for a lot of setup sweepers in the tier. Dragonite just feels scarier because of Multiscale + Tera, but it’s not like it’s consistently unanswerable if you play carefully.

this is why i'm still on the fence about dnite. consistent answers to it in builder are few and far between, and it invents new nonsense on the regular that can muscle past its check-of-the-week, but it's very linear and its set is way easier to guess in practice than it looks on paper. it's very strong and very cheap and i would eventually like a suspect of it down the line, but i don't know whether i would call it broken or what i would vote in said suspect, or even whether i'd argue strongly in favor of one position or the other. if it were just a little bit harder to guess its set i'd be firmly in favor of a ban, but on preview it's basically wearing a neon sign that says "hey look at me i'm the tb flying set" or whatever, so it's really not hard to address except when a new dnite set pops up, in which case it's impossible to address for 2 days and then counterplay happens. what a weird case this is

 

[JackRG]

Dnite is annoying but tbh, by choosing to keep tera blast, we basically decided its staying the tier. They are so linked to each other in terms of brokeness or lack there of that I highly doubt if it was suspected, dnite would get even close to getting banned. I honestly think a dnite suspect would rival the SS melmetal suspect in terms of precentage