Personally, I have never really liked G-Weezing. Being able to defog on Gholdengo is nice but the problem is G-Weezing can't do anything else against it. The only status it has that actually hits Gholdengo is will-o-wisp and if Gholdengo has recover or leftovers it doesn't really matter to much. G-Weezing actually learns overheat but not only is it never going to be faster than Gholdengo anyway, but it also has such cripplingly low special attack that the only way to ohko Gholdengo is if G-Weezing has max special attack (with max nature), and Gholdengo has 0 hp and special defense (and minimum nature). And even if that situtation somehow happened, it is only a 31% chance. Gholdengo can very easily just recover at that point and then overheat does nothing because of the special attack drop. Bringing Gholdengo in on G-Weezing basically gives you a free turn since you know G-Weezing will switch out and therefore can focus all of your efforts on figuring out which pokemon the opponent will bring out or even set up if you have nasty plot which is really dangerous if they don't have something like Kingambit. And when Gholdengo isn't on an opposing team there isn't much G-Weezing does that Corviknight does better aside from spreading status (which is actually pretty cool, but it isn't revolutionary). I agree that it is overrated and maybe one day G-Weezing will be phased out of the meta.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
are we still having "gweezing is supposed to be the hard gholdengo answer" debates in 2025
yes you give your opponent a chance to bring gholdengo in when you defog, that's one turn you give your opponent for the 1-4 you negate by removing every layer of stealth rocks + spikes they set up and they can barely do anything if you bring in gambit or ting-lu (which, you know, are both pokemon that like running leftovers and benefit from removing all the hazards that have been vomited on the field.) this interaction is barely a win for the ghold user unless they're carrying tera fighting fblast/tblast which is still a huge expense in most scenarios. you should never be trying to kill it with modest overheat weezing, that's just not what that pokemon is for.
that's even before we get into the fact that it chunks gliscor for free and is the only thing that can scare garg with status, is very solid into mixed/phys val and pult and ironpress zama, and can deal with hamurott's spikespam possibly the best out of any mon in the tier period, none of these are things that corv can do except the valiant answer (sometimes).
i'm not really thinking weez is particularly stronger or weaker than it was historically, but if it is weaker, i really need to see a better argument for it.
glad to see everyone's takes on what mons are being overlooked right now. hard agree on most of them, especially hydrapple. that's my number 1 candidate for "mon that should be ou but isn't"
but let's go a little more extreme with it, shall we?
are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use
but let's go a little more extreme with it, shall we?
are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use
Bisharp, and I even get why it isn't used. It's a Kingambit without the King or the Gambit, but it can run Defiant Eviolite shenanagins, and also it'a my favorite mon. I have to throw it a bone, even if I can accept that it isn't realistically going to be tiered OU.
Some shit isn't OU but has its use in it. Let me dream.
i've actually experimented with running evio bisharp and gambit together to keep gambit healthy for the late game while still having a dark/steel with gambit-like bulk and a respectable damage output for the earlier game. that way you can still check most of the stuff gambit checks throughout a match while preserving a full-hp gambit in the back as your wincon. never really worked out but maybe in the hands of a better player than me it could have potential. sure you stack weaknesses but you can just tera the gambit in the endgame
Jirachi used to be at the bottom of the VR but I think it could still put in solid work as a support mon if people found the right set and it was on the right team. It basically has the support movepool of clefable or mew but as a steel type paired with better stats across the board including a much better speed tier, and being able to outspeed and ohko tusk with psychic STAB and spatk investment is really nice. Treads is probably a better steel type rocker in most ways but I feel like theres still probably ways to make it work.
Don’t think there will be another situation like that again. SV OU’s power creep is insane to the point where defensive niches from lower tiers are rare. So you have to look at the offensive side of things.
If you wanna be technical, Ninetales is all the way in ZU and that’s the go-to Sun setter lol.
Ninetales is ZU 'cause Drought was banned in PU, and realistically, Ninetales is not going to rise to OU anyway even if sun improved as an archetype given it has to compete with Torkoal for a slot with their combined usage totally just above the cutoff but still quite far from being OU individually.
If anything is going to rise back to OU from NU or below, it'd be Ninetales-Alola if someone can make a really strong Veil team that isn't Cinderace food and doesn't have too many bad match-ups and makes a RMT of it. Otherwise if nothing else, I can see it being a Webs setter in the future if Webs starts picking up as a playstyle again, but the meta would have to significantly shift before that happens, and it'd dependent on a very convincing RMT.
I used Glastrier earlier today. It did struggle a bit vs a few cores but what I noticed is that most team's didnt really have a safe switch-in to the mon itself- they just had to predict and try pivoting around its moves, which are interactions that it can take advantage of.
I feel this mon is underexplored - its got a good toolkit and those stats are still insane by OU standards. Ice coverage is tough to swap into and it has a few good entry points. It's 1v1 mus also arent bad.
Not saying its ZU -> OU material, but I think it has a niche.
Realistically the only 2 pokemon that I think even have a chance are A-Ninetales and Barraskweda. Ninetales sets snow (which is good for Kyurem even if Glowking does the same thing) and aurora veil while Barraskewda is a fantastic rain sweeper (this is only happening if rain somehow becomes really good again and even then).
Personally, I think Alolan Ninetales. It is the best screens setter in a metagame where screens offense is beginning to excel, in addition to having really nice intrinsic utility in fast Encore and being a rare Kyurem check. I think there’s a lot of potential for it as a setter in general (for both Snow and screens) which could be useful in niche Snow compositions not heavily explored or as an additional tool for other forms of HO, such as Sticky Web.
Another Pokemon I think has a lot of potential is Cresselia. It’s extremely bulky and has access to the highly coveted Tera + Levitate combo alongside ludicrous mixed bulk and an avenue for setup. Setup could be strong, but I feel as though there’s potential in a utility based or offensive Choice Scarf set with Lunar Dance, Trick Room (which saw a bit of success in OLT), and just general disruptive walling with Thunder Wave in tow. Its fundamentals could let it see an explosive renaissance like it had in SM OU. Obviously this may be a pipe dream but given the spirit of this question, I think Cresselia is the kind of Pokemon that fits. Generally, once it sees success, people explore its deep set of options by merit of its insane fundamentals.
This thing is broken, it feels like it is always two clicks away from winning, if sun gets more usage you can expect it to be the first to rise to OU.
If the meta continues to find ways to bother Gholdengo which is this girl's biggest problem, it might be able to find back its footing but I am doubtful that will happen anytime soon.
Both of these are reliant on a factor that's possible but improbable so I won't hold my breath but they do have a chance.
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Definitely super niche weirdo mon but I'm shocked no one uses Zapdos-Galar. Especially choice band. I ran this unserious team a few months ago and got 1900s easily. A better team could for sure do really nicely.
Gapdos' typing means it can be a choice user not afraid of rocks or spikes, making it a great fit on offense teams without hazard control and boots spam. Its bulk is surprisingly decent, similar to regular zapdos so it can take a hit or two in a pinch. For all the speed creep this gen, base 100 still feels good. Also flying is a great offensive type when unprepared for, as demonstrated by the rise in torn-t. Knock lets it hammer its two best checks in zapdos and defensive ghold. Obviously this isnt a staple OU mon, or even in the B- zone but unranked and completely unexplored surprises me, especially since it was decent last gen.
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Gapdos is a mon that in a vacuum feels plenty capable of making strides in OU given its really good type coverage into a lot of the top-cut mons (Gambit, Tusk, Ting-Lu, and Zama all hate the 1v1, Ogerpon and Ghold don't want to come in on a STAB or Knock respectively, Lando-T lacks any progress-maker beyond a 3HKO with Offensive Stone Edge and can't Intimidate), with its STAB combo only resisted by Gholdengo and Kanto-Zapdos in the tier right now.
Its role differs substantially from Zapdos, but I continue to think it'd at least make the C/B zone if it didn't come with the opportunity cost of restricting K-Zapdos due to species clause, given how useful the latter's typing and Static are into soft-checking a lot of Sweepers and Breakers.
Its role differs substantially from Zapdos, but I continue to think it'd at least make the C/B zone if it didn't come with the opportunity cost of restricting K-Zapdos due to species clause, given how useful the latter's typing and Static are into soft-checking a lot of Sweepers and Breakers.
I used this mon a good bit in gen 8 and I'm quite the fan, but I've tried it a bit in gen 9 and have struggled to make anything super good with it. It doesn't even feel bad when I use it, just impossible to slap on a team. It's heinous vulnerably to contact effects is a notable downside, especially on the choice band set from last gen. Heal Bell's distribution getting put in the gutter is also tragic for this mon, as you can't slap it onto guys like clef, mew, and dnite (god I miss when this mon was honest) which would help get around this. Now it's pretty much just blissey or bust which has awkward synergy with gzap to say the least. Choice Band can still work and I'm sure if I put my mind to it I could eventually make a good team with it, but heres another set I think has potential
Zapdos-Galar @ Protective Pads
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Dark / Steel / Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunderous Kick / Close Combat
- Brave Bird / Drill Peck
- Knock Off
- Taunt / U-Turn
This set has a pretty simple concept lol, pads allow you to spam your stabs without those dumbass birds ruining your life while not getting punished for clicking your flying stab aganist something like Corviknight. Brave Bird is still the go to Drill Peck is a decent alternative, especially paired with tera flying to help make up for the power drop. Knock off is to hit Ghold, Zapdos, and Moltres obv. The last slot is either for taunt to deny recovery from Zapdos to help break through them later, but U-Turn is also a good option to pivot, especially since Thunderous Kick's defensive drops can force a lot of awkward switches.
Maybe scarf is decent too but I mean scarfers feel ass this gen with the exception of stuff thats already really fast like darkrai
Vikavolt - the webs setter that actually scares you.
427 Special Attack with max investment is no joke and it has a really solid matchup into other bulky special walls such as Ting-Lu and hazard removers such as Great Tusk and Corviknight can't do much either. Araquanid does have a solid matchup into these same threats, but in my ladder testing Vikavolt has been more impressive. Tera Ghost on here also works as a pseudo spinblocker.
Vikavolt (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Volt Switch
- Energy Ball
- Bug Buzz
The Speed EVs here creep on Ting-Lu.
An honorable mention in this category is Diancie. Its typing gives it a nice base to handle most if not all the standard Dragapult sets and can also manage other threats in a pinch. My personal favorite OU set for it is a tanky Custap Berry set. Most of SV OU is strong enough to put on enough pressure where Resttalk and defensive sweeping sets don't work without major team support. This set is more plug and play because Diancie can almost always last long enough to activate Custap, but not do much outside of a surprise attack. The beauty of this set is it doesn't push Diancie beyond its natural limits. It can set hazards, chip as much as it can, and then smack the next threat trying to revenge kill it. The EV spread here is for Iron Moth on the physical side and Kyurem post Stealth Rock on the special side. Diamond Storm defense boosts are nice, but not necessary for this set to work. It also helps to keep hazard chip in mind to switch it out and preserve it later in the game once it's in Custap range to revenge a sweeper. A 30% health Diancie can become a 24% health Diancie later in the match post hazards and that can be the difference between a sack or a savior.
Diancie @ Custap Berry
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 224 HP / 100 Atk / 184 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
184+ SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 294-348 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (OHKO after Rocks)
100 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lower tier mons don't need to sweep to have value on an OU team, but several of them can play really solid support roles in hazard setup, hazard removal, or sniping a unique threat that is otherwise impossible to handle. "Safe" OU players generally stick to the same 40 threats, and for tournament play this is probably good advice. The dropoff between #40 and #140 in quality though is much smaller than what it seems. There are a lot of gems in lower tiers that can play a niche role. Good places to find them are high value pick Draft League mons (use the Low Tier board especially for this) and anything that got banned in a lower tier because those bans don't happen on a whim. They will never be cornerstones for a serious OU team, but I have been really impressed with lower tier pokemon filling in gaps that only they could fill.
(And yes I have used both to win tournament matches but I'm not putting opponents on blast.)
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I know this is ban dependant, but if, at any moment, Gliscor gets banned, Alolan Muk is gonna pop off a lot in this metagame. Nothing in the entire tier likes to switch to a Poison Touch Knock Off, has Drain Punch for Kingambit and the Poison Touch means it makes progress aganist Tusk, Ting Lu, Moltres, Zapdos or Alo, even if it gets crippled in the process.
I've had a lot of success with Alolan Muk in the past as I've shown in this thread, and I'm 100% sure it can be OU material given the (possible, kinda likely if waterpon gets banned) circumstances
Vikavolt - the webs setter that actually scares you.
427 Special Attack with max investment is no joke and it has a really solid matchup into other bulky special walls such as Ting-Lu and hazard removers such as Great Tusk and Corviknight can't do much either. Araquanid does have a solid matchup into these same threats, but in my ladder testing Vikavolt has been more impressive. Tera Ghost on here also works as a pseudo spinblocker.
Vikavolt (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Volt Switch
- Energy Ball
- Bug Buzz
The Speed EVs here creep on Ting-Lu.
Yooooo. Great minds think alike
Given the webs discussion earlier, I would like to pitch a different webs setter than the usual two suspects: Vikavolt.
Vikavolt @ Custap Berry/ Focus Sash/ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel/ Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Volt Switch
- Energy Ball
- Endure/ Bug Buzz / Flash Cannon
With its tool kit and offensive/defensive profile, Vikavolt is not only good at setting webs, but can also serve as a good utility 'mon thanks to functioning as a slow pivot while still being able to box with various lead 'mons (the given EV spread allows Energy Ball to have a 75% to OHKO Tusk while still retaining enough bulk to live stuff such as Landorus-T's Stone Edge). Endure + Custap is pretty standard for slow hard hitters, but if you're greedy like how I was, you can slot in Buzz or Flash Cannon so it can chunk certain threats (Buzz for Ting-Lu/Moon/Darkrai or Flash Cannon for Kyurem) with either a Focus Sash to still ensure Webs or Boots to leverage its pivoting potential. I like Tera Steel because it + Levitate is an undefeated combo, but Tera Ghost allows for emergency spin-blocking if you value webs more.
The main downside compared to Araquanid is that you don't eviscerate things like Lando and Gliscor and there are more things that can OHKO Vika like Dracos from Specs Pult due to the lower Special bulk. Still, I think this 'mon has promise, but I don't think I managed to tap into its potential since I'm not used to building for Webs teams (I started out with a Modest nature because I was greedy and wanted it to hit stuff harder) so maybe someone more experienced than me can try to see if it has the juice. I have no illusions of it being better than Araq or even Ribombee, but I'd like to think it could be an option for Webs teams.
Edit: I think I found a more optimal EV spread:
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 112 SpA / 60 SpD
Modest Nature
I focused a bit more on bulk for my build to allow for greater item flexibility while still being able to put Tusk in the dirt. I never manged to build a team that could make the zapper bug shine, but I did run into people on ladder who clicked Headlong Rush on Vikavolt so that was fun experience.
What do you feel about weakness policy Ting-Lu? With attack investment it can surprise many that think it can beat it, and it helps with trading against certain threats.
The problem I see there is that Ting-Lu has a hard time maintaining momentum once it surprises the first target, due to its low speed and pretty exploitable weakness list which makes taking REPEATED hits a tall order.
Ting-Lu is very good at interrupting certain mons but it doesn't seem the type that's equipped to stay on the field against multiple opponents, so much as block certain ones to help you position yourself.
I think Weakness Policy Ting-Lu has a place on more offensive teams where it doesn't have as much trouble maintaining momentum after surprising the opponent because it isn't expected to stay in the field for long, like the sample team featuring it.
I get why it works in theory, but I don't see the need for it in practice. It has better roles in this metagame by setting up hazards and absorbing attacks when sweepers are a dime a dozen and rock solid walls are at a premium.
As for Alolan-Muk - it's an incredible special tank in lower levels. My experience with it in higher levels is it struggles to 2HKO targets that it has the profile to handle and this cripples its upside. The set I run below is what I would run in SV OU to check Gholdengo and Dragapult, but the EV spread could use some optimization.
Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Adamant Nature
Tera Type: Fire
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 128 HP / 140 Atk / 240 SpD
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Shadow Sneak
- Fire Punch
140+ Atk Muk-Alola Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 100-118 (25 - 29.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 158-186 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 142-168 (37 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
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I understand what you're saying and quite frankly Weakness Policy Ting-Lu is niche compared to most typical sets but my point was that Weakness Policy Ting Lu has a niche on more offensive fast paced teams less reliant on switching by catching would-be attackers off guard and surprise with its often-overlooked attack stat.I get why it works in theory, but I don't see the need for it in practice. It has better roles in this metagame by setting up hazards and absorbing attacks when sweepers are a dime a dozen and rock solid walls are at a premium.
As for Alolan-Muk - it's an incredible special tank in lower levels. My experience with it in higher levels is it struggles to 2HKO targets that it has the profile to handle and this cripples its upside. The set I run below is what I would run in SV OU to check Gholdengo and Dragapult, but the EV spread could use some optimization.
Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Adamant Nature
Tera Type: Fire
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 128 HP / 140 Atk / 240 SpD
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Shadow Sneak
- Fire Punch
140+ Atk Muk-Alola Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 100-118 (25 - 29.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 158-186 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 128 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 142-168 (37 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Fair enough and I probably should have quoted the original Ting-Lu Weakness Policy question instead of your response. It honestly could work. My guess you have made it work in practice. The opportunity cost though is very high. Giving up your item to bait the equivalent of a Swords Dance is a tough sell. It does break Corviknight at +2 with Payback which is impressive, but even then for offensive teams I don't know if this is worth the opportunity cost. It certainly could work, but teambuilding in SV OU is so compressed that it's hard to argue this is worth it.
+2 252+ Atk Ting-Lu Payback (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 222-262 (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Ting-Lu Payback (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 222-262 (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Though I am not enjoying this meta (Dnite and Wellspring are stupid and laddering SV OU has gotten boring since the OLT cycles ended), I’d like to give a shoutout to Scizor, who I think is at its peak rn.
Though Scizor doesn’t appreciate certain trends (Zapdos’ popularity being one such trend), Lefties Roost Fairy Blast Dnite and Kyurem are monsters that terrorize many common builds, but Scizor shuts them down. Scizor also has superb synergy with other offensive threats, forcing Knock Off on key targets like Zap/Molt/Lando/Corv and pivoting on them.
The best Scizor partners either abuse many of the mons Scizor lures in, or continue the Voltturn vortex.
CB Scizor is also one of the best mons at pressuring offenses. Fairy is a common type, and offense tends to have few safe switch-ins into Scizor’s moves. Usually their switch-ins are Lando/Tusk, but chipping them down works in favor of the Scizor user.
SD can also get some surprise kills with Tera Blast.
What are your thoughts on Scizor?
Though Scizor doesn’t appreciate certain trends (Zapdos’ popularity being one such trend), Lefties Roost Fairy Blast Dnite and Kyurem are monsters that terrorize many common builds, but Scizor shuts them down. Scizor also has superb synergy with other offensive threats, forcing Knock Off on key targets like Zap/Molt/Lando/Corv and pivoting on them.
The best Scizor partners either abuse many of the mons Scizor lures in, or continue the Voltturn vortex.
CB Scizor is also one of the best mons at pressuring offenses. Fairy is a common type, and offense tends to have few safe switch-ins into Scizor’s moves. Usually their switch-ins are Lando/Tusk, but chipping them down works in favor of the Scizor user.
SD can also get some surprise kills with Tera Blast.
What are your thoughts on Scizor?