Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]

There's pretty much no reason to bring back Bundle. It doesn't even need Specs to be strong lol. It's got 124 SpA and 136 Speed. It can just Flip Turn on its very few resists and generate infinite momentum. Idk what it is this gen but people just want to do things for the sake of doing them. What does the meta truly gain from freeing Bundle? Jahkem's post just gives an analysis level introduction to the mon and lists some checks that can switch into it 1-3 times, cool. But what does Bundle really bring to the meta? You didn't outline that at all really which just already makes this a moot point.

The only real changes that should be made to SV if any (I'm still against it) would be against Gholdengo or Archaludon.
 
I am just going to come right out and say this: I do not support unbanning Iron Bundle. You can post the niche checks that it does have in this tier but I think we fail to realize that you do NOT have to run Choice Scarf or Choice Specs for Iron Bundle to continue to do what it does best. Be a fast cleaner with utility like Encore, and momentum with Flip Turn. Arguably the better choice to run with Iron Bundle would be Heavy Duty Boots as Water has more so limited options with hazard removal.


Rapid Spin - :quaquaval:, :blastoise:, :tentacruel:, :tatsugiri:

Defog: :cramorant:, :swanna:

So when it comes to Water, you really don't have to run anything other than Heavy Duty Boots which rain-less & stall Water already stack on each playstyle, arguably using up most to 5 forms of Heavy Duty Boots mons.


Ice would enjoy this mon a bit more, but it still suffers versus Steel arguably Ice's worst match up coming to a real close second with Fire.

Without any need of hazard removal, and stacking :heavy-duty-boots:, Iron Bundle can freely do damage and swap out or even abuse Encore. This is not a healthy mon even with the more calmer metagame that we have adapted to.
 
I guess with an unban of bundle my question is why? What value would bundle be adding to the tier outside of another Unga Bunga damage mon? Realistically it would honestly cause more damage in my opinion than positives it would bring.

Just going through two of the months listed as checks.
:Empoleon:

This is not a consistent part of Water, sitting at 16th in usage this month (13.39356%) and primarily sees play on bulky offense to stall water teams and not the more common standard balance to rain (which rain saw a major boon this month with Pelipper sitting at 53.70812%, 2nd overall). Empoleon though would be mandatory to prevent Water mirrors from coming down to bundle Freeze Dry wars as it would be the only consistent defensive check to bundle outside of Choice Scarf threats whom a majority of are walled by Toxapex with the exception of Scarf Greninja who has issues breaking through the special walls, espessically if Empoleon usage rises as Scarf Gren does pitful damage to it.

:Articuno:

While more common than Empoleon on flying teams (34.44616% which puts it abit over usage on 1/3 of every flying team) would be the only reliable check to Bundle (Specially Defensive Corviknight is not a reliable switch in for the following reason: 252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 171-202 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, the standard 252 HP/144+SpD set is a clean 2HKO after rocks) which would force flying teams to homogenize lest they get ran over by bundle. And even then Articuno still has to be scared of Bundle as Specs Hydro Pump can 2HKO and if paired with Rain would reliably 2HKO. And similarly, it would likely struggle to dent water if there was to be an increase of Empoleon (outside of a lucky freeze)

Hell, some of these guys aren't even good checks. Hoopa-U for example only checks Specs Bundle if it is AV or Scarf (beam is a clean 2HKO and Freeze-Dry is a clean 2HKO after rocks) and if bundle Flip turns on the hoopa-U switch in, now there is an Ogerpon-W or Scarf Urshifu-R in your face. I would like the new plan on how Dark is running through these guys (or SD Samu-H if it is Psychic)
Hisuian Goodra takes a lot of damage from Specs Ice Beam, and more importantly, doesn't instantly check Bundle like it would with Flutter Mane with Heavy Slam being a roll to 2HKO.
Alolan Muk could come in a Rain boosted hydro pump and take too much damage just from it to reliably check Bundle clicking Freeze Dry later in the game which runs through a lot of Poison's defensive core.
Both Iron Hands and Gallade are already on a type that from my experience, isn't great into more offensive Water teams, this would really on just make things worse them for handling a possible Greninja waiting in the back.

Also as both Royal mentioned, Water has a defensive backbone that is solid. Going through the scarfers listed (and nothing else).
:Sneasler:
:Okidogi:
:Meowscarada:
and
:Urshifu:
are all walled very hard by Toxapex (well Meow isn't, but still is checked) along with
:Enamorus:
having to click moonblast/superpower to reliably slam Bundle which Pex, does Pex things against. Unburden Sneasler was also listed and that dies to Specs Hydro Pump and is also a roll for Ice beam and even after the balloon gets popped and it managed to live. Its dead to any form of Water priority or just Pex clicking Pjab (even with best case for Sneasler, Pex's PJab is an 81.3% to OHKO a Sneasler left on 46 HP). Urshifu-R also has issues with Primarina.


:Great Tusk:
and
:Landorus:
are walled by Pelipper (More than half of water teams this month) and Rotom-W (while rare, having less than 10% usage, it would possibly see a rise in usage to support Bundle with Volt switch entry) along with Scarf Landorus generally being a worse set overall for standard Ground teams (only having 19.740% usage) and Scarf Tusk not being super common (21.283% on Ground), along with Tusk itself only barely eeking past 30% usage at 30.00655% on Ground.

:Heatran:
:Iron Valiant:
and
:Archaludon:
are not particularly fond of seeing Swampert outside of EBall Valiant (which never appears) of course Scarf Valiant may be physical, but thats not a worry for Pex/Pelipper usually. Now Scarf Arch does also hit a Draco which is hard but the problem with both Valiant and Arch is that they're not consistently scarf. Scarf Valiant is very rare on Fairy (13.054%) with mixed sets/SD sets proving to be more common and while it sees high usage on Fighting (41.234%) it still isn't particularly common there. Archaludon is also just more common as a bulky leftovers set than Scarf on steel (lefties at 43.650% and Scarf at 40.699%, nice) Also for Heatran, not a scarfer (18.803%)

:Latias:
:Darkrai:
and
:Dragapult:
would have issues with Empoleon along with defensive Primarina (either AV or just CM) being somewhat reasonable to checks them.
Of course there are far more scarfers, but these were just the ones listed and they all find different issues with Water's common defensive threats.

In response what are we gain an offensive bully for? Gliscor? Ground? The Water mirror?
If you are in desperate need for a mon capable of doing these things, I would like to introduce to you this rare and underappreciated mon that no one, but myself, has ever used before.
:SV/Ogerpon-Wellspring:
Of course it would do more than that Oger-W, it would check Archaludon and opposing Ogerpon formes (Wellspring is dead to freeze-Dry, and the other two are dead to Specs Ice Beam, yes even hearthflame which is OHKOed after rocks and pump just sends it to hell) but this to me isn't a healthy solution. We should be trying to reduce the fire (please guys, just accept that Arch and Glisc are lame AF), not set another building on fire to make the current burning building look like less of a disaster.
Well said
I don't see how unbanning a broken mon can contribute anything healthy.
 
Aside from making Ice a bit better, I concur that we wouldn’t gain much from unbanning Iron Bundle. Hell Baxcalibur would be less broken than robo Delibird (not advocating for that to be freed either).
 
I say we unban or test acupressure. At worst we have like 2 mons being able to do something inconsistent but very funny, and even then it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as Espathra was which only narrowly reached the ban threshold. Gonna add to that, I don't see acupressure leading to autoloss at preview the way some perceived Espathra. More Funny = More Good, and I'd also like to add Unban Quick Claw with the same More Funny argument.
 
I say we unban or test acupressure. At worst we have like 2 mons being able to do something inconsistent but very funny, and even then it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as Espathra was which only narrowly reached the ban threshold. Gonna add to that, I don't see acupressure leading to autoloss at preview the way some perceived Espathra. More Funny = More Good, and I'd also like to add Unban Quick Claw with the same More Funny argument.
There are still 201 days left for this
 
I say we unban or test acupressure. At worst we have like 2 mons being able to do something inconsistent but very funny, and even then it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as Espathra was which only narrowly reached the ban threshold. Gonna add to that, I don't see acupressure leading to autoloss at preview the way some perceived Espathra. More Funny = More Good, and I'd also like to add Unban Quick Claw with the same More Funny argument.
Gotta keep the meta fresh somehow lol.
Acupressure seems like it would never be a real strat but it could be fun to play with.
 
I see some saying "sv mono is fine where its at currently" and im not too sure how that can be used as an argument. Other main tiers have mons get dropped down all the time and are either quick banned or suspected if proven too much for the tier to handle. Bundle was one of our first bans in the metagame so we didnt get to see much of any of it so we realistically have 0 clue what it can look in our current metagame. Do I think Bundle will be a good mon on mono teams? Yes i do. Do i think it will be so absolutely broken that it overshadows other good mons in the tier like everyone talking about Gholdengo, Gliscor or Archaludon? Im in the middle of maybe and no i do not. I feel the way we're looking at the idea of this is kinda backwards and lacking. I will restate that believe Bundle at the very least deserves a chance at a suspect even if in the middle it proves to be too much and council wants to scrap and quick ban it, it gives those in support of Bundle a chance to really look at what this mon can bring to SV Mono, how it will shake up team building and if its really healthy for the metagame
 
I see some saying "sv mono is fine where its at currently" and im not too sure how that can be used as an argument. Other main tiers have mons get dropped down all the time and are either quick banned or suspected if proven too much for the tier to handle. Bundle was one of our first bans in the metagame so we didnt get to see much of any of it so we realistically have 0 clue what it can look in our current metagame. Do I think Bundle will be a good mon on mono teams? Yes i do. Do i think it will be so absolutely broken that it overshadows other good mons in the tier like everyone talking about Gholdengo, Gliscor or Archaludon? Im in the middle of maybe and no i do not. I feel the way we're looking at the idea of this is kinda backwards and lacking. I will restate that believe Bundle at the very least deserves a chance at a suspect even if in the middle it proves to be too much and council wants to scrap and quick ban it, it gives those in support of Bundle a chance to really look at what this mon can bring to SV Mono, how it will shake up team building and if its really healthy for the metagame
brother those are usage based tiers, they are forced to put those pokemon into the tier, we are not
 
I see some saying "sv mono is fine where its at currently" and im not too sure how that can be used as an argument. Other main tiers have mons get dropped down all the time and are either quick banned or suspected if proven too much for the tier to handle.

This implies Monotype, aside from some OM's, is based on usage. Which it is not, at least not anymore.


The argument at hand is on one side, Iron Bundle has more checks than it did pre DLC's 1 & 2. Even with the new found answers to it can it still do unhealthy amounts of damage to the tier across the board.
 
Iron Bundle who would fit nicely into the metagame without warping the tier in an immensely negative way.
Out of all the switchins mentioned, the only one type that would be an actual positive matchup into bundle water is articuno flying and possibly fighting. Before any adaptions, Water would easily become the best type in the tier. It would not just slide comfortably into the meta as a slottable threat - boots or specs would be one of the best mons on every meta build.

People already mentioned flip turn, but the defensive checklist also doesn't acknowledge that Slowking can easily set snow to give Iron Bundle a fully accurate blizzard + pivot it into something it can nuke.
:iron bundle:
:samurott-hisui:
:slowking:
:swampert:
https://pokepast.es/a87b655c351496f8

A basic structure like this seems nearly impossible for the meta dragon builds to handle. Spikestack builds tend to fare pretty well already, but now hoodra gets cleanly 3hkod before even factoring hazard chip. It would also nuke darks only switchin without relying on hitting 2 pumps.

With all that being said about the pitch being malformed, I don't actually hate the idea of a bundle test (at least compared to smth like gambit). The basic dynamic of sv mono prep rn is a game of chicken where you either load dragon or you load something else fearing a dragon cteam. Dragons evens out vs most things. Its only actively bad matchups tend to be pretty fishy (the most solid being threatspam darks) and it's only unfavorable "standard" matchup is ground, which has mixed results against everything else.

SV is balanced and fine enough to prep, but having a clear Most powerful thing to be doing in a vacuum makes it rather static and often feel like you're just gambling against contingency. Even oras which is pretty centralized build-wise feels a lot more fluid since the A-tier types dont just have "not [best type]" as their main drawback.

So anyway, my thoughts are that bundle is very likely too powerful but I can at least see a clear goal of disrupting dragons dominance and making the meta more fluid, instead of just being a "yeah this wont break the meta" unban. I don't think a retest would be a complete waste of time (although I'd say im like 52% in favor of one actually happening).
 
Out of all the switchins mentioned, the only one type that would be an actual positive matchup into bundle water is articuno flying and possibly fighting. Before any adaptions, Water would easily become the best type in the tier. It would not just slide comfortably into the meta as a slottable threat - boots or specs would be one of the best mons on every meta build.

People already mentioned flip turn, but the defensive checklist also doesn't acknowledge that Slowking can easily set snow to give Iron Bundle a fully accurate blizzard + pivot it into something it can nuke.
:iron bundle:
:samurott-hisui:
:slowking:
:swampert:
https://pokepast.es/a87b655c351496f8

A basic structure like this seems nearly impossible for the meta dragon builds to handle. Spikestack builds tend to fare pretty well already, but now hoodra gets cleanly 3hkod before even factoring hazard chip. It would also nuke darks only switchin without relying on hitting 2 pumps.

With all that being said about the pitch being malformed, I don't actually hate the idea of a bundle test (at least compared to smth like gambit). The basic dynamic of sv mono prep rn is a game of chicken where you either load dragon or you load something else fearing a dragon cteam. Dragons evens out vs most things. Its only actively bad matchups tend to be pretty fishy (the most solid being threatspam darks) and it's only unfavorable "standard" matchup is ground, which has mixed results against everything else.

SV is balanced and fine enough to prep, but having a clear Most powerful thing to be doing in a vacuum makes it rather static and often feel like you're just gambling against contingency. Even oras which is pretty centralized build-wise feels a lot more fluid since the A-tier types dont just have "not [best type]" as their main drawback.

So anyway, my thoughts are that bundle is very likely too powerful but I can at least see a clear goal of disrupting dragons dominance and making the meta more fluid, instead of just being a "yeah this wont break the meta" unban. I don't think a retest would be a complete waste of time (although I'd say im like 52% in favor of one actually happening).
The matchup is more than playable for dragon; it has access to both Raging Bolt and Kyurem. I fail to see how dragon cannot still smash water into smithereens; to argue water now beats dragon seems like bad faith.

Calling a metagame "balanced' when people load "dragon or anti-dragon" doesn't seem right to me; such a metagame seems overcentralized, not balanced. Not going to argue whether an overcentralized metagame where dragon smashes everything that doesn't explicitly prepare for it is good or bad, but don't call it balanced when it very clearly isn't.

Could water be the best type in the tier with an iron bundle unban? Maybe. I'm not sure; the mon is good but has noticeable drawbacks. For example, the pokepaste linked above looks great until you realize that water doesn't have the greatest hazard control (and note that dragon even commonly runs a spinblocker); and obviously if you're running slowking + specs iron bundle you really want rocks off the field; taking a fat 25% off chilly every time you come in kinda ruins the point IMO. I'm definitely in favor of a retest.
 
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