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Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]

There's pretty much no reason to bring back Bundle. It doesn't even need Specs to be strong lol. It's got 124 SpA and 136 Speed. It can just Flip Turn on its very few resists and generate infinite momentum. Idk what it is this gen but people just want to do things for the sake of doing them. What does the meta truly gain from freeing Bundle? Jahkem's post just gives an analysis level introduction to the mon and lists some checks that can switch into it 1-3 times, cool. But what does Bundle really bring to the meta? You didn't outline that at all really which just already makes this a moot point.

The only real changes that should be made to SV if any (I'm still against it) would be against Gholdengo or Archaludon.
 
I am just going to come right out and say this: I do not support unbanning Iron Bundle. You can post the niche checks that it does have in this tier but I think we fail to realize that you do NOT have to run Choice Scarf or Choice Specs for Iron Bundle to continue to do what it does best. Be a fast cleaner with utility like Encore, and momentum with Flip Turn. Arguably the better choice to run with Iron Bundle would be Heavy Duty Boots as Water has more so limited options with hazard removal.


Rapid Spin - :quaquaval:, :blastoise:, :tentacruel:, :tatsugiri:

Defog: :cramorant:, :swanna:

So when it comes to Water, you really don't have to run anything other than Heavy Duty Boots which rain-less & stall Water already stack on each playstyle, arguably using up most to 5 forms of Heavy Duty Boots mons.


Ice would enjoy this mon a bit more, but it still suffers versus Steel arguably Ice's worst match up coming to a real close second with Fire.

Without any need of hazard removal, and stacking :heavy-duty-boots:, Iron Bundle can freely do damage and swap out or even abuse Encore. This is not a healthy mon even with the more calmer metagame that we have adapted to.
 
I guess with an unban of bundle my question is why? What value would bundle be adding to the tier outside of another Unga Bunga damage mon? Realistically it would honestly cause more damage in my opinion than positives it would bring.

Just going through two of the months listed as checks.
:Empoleon:

This is not a consistent part of Water, sitting at 16th in usage this month (13.39356%) and primarily sees play on bulky offense to stall water teams and not the more common standard balance to rain (which rain saw a major boon this month with Pelipper sitting at 53.70812%, 2nd overall). Empoleon though would be mandatory to prevent Water mirrors from coming down to bundle Freeze Dry wars as it would be the only consistent defensive check to bundle outside of Choice Scarf threats whom a majority of are walled by Toxapex with the exception of Scarf Greninja who has issues breaking through the special walls, espessically if Empoleon usage rises as Scarf Gren does pitful damage to it.

:Articuno:

While more common than Empoleon on flying teams (34.44616% which puts it abit over usage on 1/3 of every flying team) would be the only reliable check to Bundle (Specially Defensive Corviknight is not a reliable switch in for the following reason: 252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 171-202 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, the standard 252 HP/144+SpD set is a clean 2HKO after rocks) which would force flying teams to homogenize lest they get ran over by bundle. And even then Articuno still has to be scared of Bundle as Specs Hydro Pump can 2HKO and if paired with Rain would reliably 2HKO. And similarly, it would likely struggle to dent water if there was to be an increase of Empoleon (outside of a lucky freeze)

Hell, some of these guys aren't even good checks. Hoopa-U for example only checks Specs Bundle if it is AV or Scarf (beam is a clean 2HKO and Freeze-Dry is a clean 2HKO after rocks) and if bundle Flip turns on the hoopa-U switch in, now there is an Ogerpon-W or Scarf Urshifu-R in your face. I would like the new plan on how Dark is running through these guys (or SD Samu-H if it is Psychic)
Hisuian Goodra takes a lot of damage from Specs Ice Beam, and more importantly, doesn't instantly check Bundle like it would with Flutter Mane with Heavy Slam being a roll to 2HKO.
Alolan Muk could come in a Rain boosted hydro pump and take too much damage just from it to reliably check Bundle clicking Freeze Dry later in the game which runs through a lot of Poison's defensive core.
Both Iron Hands and Gallade are already on a type that from my experience, isn't great into more offensive Water teams, this would really on just make things worse them for handling a possible Greninja waiting in the back.

Also as both Royal mentioned, Water has a defensive backbone that is solid. Going through the scarfers listed (and nothing else).
:Sneasler:
:Okidogi:
:Meowscarada:
and
:Urshifu:
are all walled very hard by Toxapex (well Meow isn't, but still is checked) along with
:Enamorus:
having to click moonblast/superpower to reliably slam Bundle which Pex, does Pex things against. Unburden Sneasler was also listed and that dies to Specs Hydro Pump and is also a roll for Ice beam and even after the balloon gets popped and it managed to live. Its dead to any form of Water priority or just Pex clicking Pjab (even with best case for Sneasler, Pex's PJab is an 81.3% to OHKO a Sneasler left on 46 HP). Urshifu-R also has issues with Primarina.


:Great Tusk:
and
:Landorus:
are walled by Pelipper (More than half of water teams this month) and Rotom-W (while rare, having less than 10% usage, it would possibly see a rise in usage to support Bundle with Volt switch entry) along with Scarf Landorus generally being a worse set overall for standard Ground teams (only having 19.740% usage) and Scarf Tusk not being super common (21.283% on Ground), along with Tusk itself only barely eeking past 30% usage at 30.00655% on Ground.

:Heatran:
:Iron Valiant:
and
:Archaludon:
are not particularly fond of seeing Swampert outside of EBall Valiant (which never appears) of course Scarf Valiant may be physical, but thats not a worry for Pex/Pelipper usually. Now Scarf Arch does also hit a Draco which is hard but the problem with both Valiant and Arch is that they're not consistently scarf. Scarf Valiant is very rare on Fairy (13.054%) with mixed sets/SD sets proving to be more common and while it sees high usage on Fighting (41.234%) it still isn't particularly common there. Archaludon is also just more common as a bulky leftovers set than Scarf on steel (lefties at 43.650% and Scarf at 40.699%, nice) Also for Heatran, not a scarfer (18.803%)

:Latias:
:Darkrai:
and
:Dragapult:
would have issues with Empoleon along with defensive Primarina (either AV or just CM) being somewhat reasonable to checks them.
Of course there are far more scarfers, but these were just the ones listed and they all find different issues with Water's common defensive threats.

In response what are we gain an offensive bully for? Gliscor? Ground? The Water mirror?
If you are in desperate need for a mon capable of doing these things, I would like to introduce to you this rare and underappreciated mon that no one, but myself, has ever used before.
:SV/Ogerpon-Wellspring:
Of course it would do more than that Oger-W, it would check Archaludon and opposing Ogerpon formes (Wellspring is dead to freeze-Dry, and the other two are dead to Specs Ice Beam, yes even hearthflame which is OHKOed after rocks and pump just sends it to hell) but this to me isn't a healthy solution. We should be trying to reduce the fire (please guys, just accept that Arch and Glisc are lame AF), not set another building on fire to make the current burning building look like less of a disaster.
Well said
I don't see how unbanning a broken mon can contribute anything healthy.
 
Aside from making Ice a bit better, I concur that we wouldn’t gain much from unbanning Iron Bundle. Hell Baxcalibur would be less broken than robo Delibird (not advocating for that to be freed either).
 
I say we unban or test acupressure. At worst we have like 2 mons being able to do something inconsistent but very funny, and even then it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as Espathra was which only narrowly reached the ban threshold. Gonna add to that, I don't see acupressure leading to autoloss at preview the way some perceived Espathra. More Funny = More Good, and I'd also like to add Unban Quick Claw with the same More Funny argument.
 
I say we unban or test acupressure. At worst we have like 2 mons being able to do something inconsistent but very funny, and even then it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as Espathra was which only narrowly reached the ban threshold. Gonna add to that, I don't see acupressure leading to autoloss at preview the way some perceived Espathra. More Funny = More Good, and I'd also like to add Unban Quick Claw with the same More Funny argument.
There are still 201 days left for this
 
I say we unban or test acupressure. At worst we have like 2 mons being able to do something inconsistent but very funny, and even then it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as Espathra was which only narrowly reached the ban threshold. Gonna add to that, I don't see acupressure leading to autoloss at preview the way some perceived Espathra. More Funny = More Good, and I'd also like to add Unban Quick Claw with the same More Funny argument.
Gotta keep the meta fresh somehow lol.
Acupressure seems like it would never be a real strat but it could be fun to play with.
 
I see some saying "sv mono is fine where its at currently" and im not too sure how that can be used as an argument. Other main tiers have mons get dropped down all the time and are either quick banned or suspected if proven too much for the tier to handle. Bundle was one of our first bans in the metagame so we didnt get to see much of any of it so we realistically have 0 clue what it can look in our current metagame. Do I think Bundle will be a good mon on mono teams? Yes i do. Do i think it will be so absolutely broken that it overshadows other good mons in the tier like everyone talking about Gholdengo, Gliscor or Archaludon? Im in the middle of maybe and no i do not. I feel the way we're looking at the idea of this is kinda backwards and lacking. I will restate that believe Bundle at the very least deserves a chance at a suspect even if in the middle it proves to be too much and council wants to scrap and quick ban it, it gives those in support of Bundle a chance to really look at what this mon can bring to SV Mono, how it will shake up team building and if its really healthy for the metagame
 
I see some saying "sv mono is fine where its at currently" and im not too sure how that can be used as an argument. Other main tiers have mons get dropped down all the time and are either quick banned or suspected if proven too much for the tier to handle. Bundle was one of our first bans in the metagame so we didnt get to see much of any of it so we realistically have 0 clue what it can look in our current metagame. Do I think Bundle will be a good mon on mono teams? Yes i do. Do i think it will be so absolutely broken that it overshadows other good mons in the tier like everyone talking about Gholdengo, Gliscor or Archaludon? Im in the middle of maybe and no i do not. I feel the way we're looking at the idea of this is kinda backwards and lacking. I will restate that believe Bundle at the very least deserves a chance at a suspect even if in the middle it proves to be too much and council wants to scrap and quick ban it, it gives those in support of Bundle a chance to really look at what this mon can bring to SV Mono, how it will shake up team building and if its really healthy for the metagame
brother those are usage based tiers, they are forced to put those pokemon into the tier, we are not
 
I see some saying "sv mono is fine where its at currently" and im not too sure how that can be used as an argument. Other main tiers have mons get dropped down all the time and are either quick banned or suspected if proven too much for the tier to handle.

This implies Monotype, aside from some OM's, is based on usage. Which it is not, at least not anymore.


The argument at hand is on one side, Iron Bundle has more checks than it did pre DLC's 1 & 2. Even with the new found answers to it can it still do unhealthy amounts of damage to the tier across the board.
 
Iron Bundle who would fit nicely into the metagame without warping the tier in an immensely negative way.
Out of all the switchins mentioned, the only one type that would be an actual positive matchup into bundle water is articuno flying and possibly fighting. Before any adaptions, Water would easily become the best type in the tier. It would not just slide comfortably into the meta as a slottable threat - boots or specs would be one of the best mons on every meta build.

People already mentioned flip turn, but the defensive checklist also doesn't acknowledge that Slowking can easily set snow to give Iron Bundle a fully accurate blizzard + pivot it into something it can nuke.
:iron bundle:
:samurott-hisui:
:slowking:
:swampert:
https://pokepast.es/a87b655c351496f8

A basic structure like this seems nearly impossible for the meta dragon builds to handle. Spikestack builds tend to fare pretty well already, but now hoodra gets cleanly 3hkod before even factoring hazard chip. It would also nuke darks only switchin without relying on hitting 2 pumps.

With all that being said about the pitch being malformed, I don't actually hate the idea of a bundle test (at least compared to smth like gambit). The basic dynamic of sv mono prep rn is a game of chicken where you either load dragon or you load something else fearing a dragon cteam. Dragons evens out vs most things. Its only actively bad matchups tend to be pretty fishy (the most solid being threatspam darks) and it's only unfavorable "standard" matchup is ground, which has mixed results against everything else.

SV is balanced and fine enough to prep, but having a clear Most powerful thing to be doing in a vacuum makes it rather static and often feel like you're just gambling against contingency. Even oras which is pretty centralized build-wise feels a lot more fluid since the A-tier types dont just have "not [best type]" as their main drawback.

So anyway, my thoughts are that bundle is very likely too powerful but I can at least see a clear goal of disrupting dragons dominance and making the meta more fluid, instead of just being a "yeah this wont break the meta" unban. I don't think a retest would be a complete waste of time (although I'd say im like 52% in favor of one actually happening).
 
Out of all the switchins mentioned, the only one type that would be an actual positive matchup into bundle water is articuno flying and possibly fighting. Before any adaptions, Water would easily become the best type in the tier. It would not just slide comfortably into the meta as a slottable threat - boots or specs would be one of the best mons on every meta build.

People already mentioned flip turn, but the defensive checklist also doesn't acknowledge that Slowking can easily set snow to give Iron Bundle a fully accurate blizzard + pivot it into something it can nuke.
:iron bundle:
:samurott-hisui:
:slowking:
:swampert:
https://pokepast.es/a87b655c351496f8

A basic structure like this seems nearly impossible for the meta dragon builds to handle. Spikestack builds tend to fare pretty well already, but now hoodra gets cleanly 3hkod before even factoring hazard chip. It would also nuke darks only switchin without relying on hitting 2 pumps.

With all that being said about the pitch being malformed, I don't actually hate the idea of a bundle test (at least compared to smth like gambit). The basic dynamic of sv mono prep rn is a game of chicken where you either load dragon or you load something else fearing a dragon cteam. Dragons evens out vs most things. Its only actively bad matchups tend to be pretty fishy (the most solid being threatspam darks) and it's only unfavorable "standard" matchup is ground, which has mixed results against everything else.

SV is balanced and fine enough to prep, but having a clear Most powerful thing to be doing in a vacuum makes it rather static and often feel like you're just gambling against contingency. Even oras which is pretty centralized build-wise feels a lot more fluid since the A-tier types dont just have "not [best type]" as their main drawback.

So anyway, my thoughts are that bundle is very likely too powerful but I can at least see a clear goal of disrupting dragons dominance and making the meta more fluid, instead of just being a "yeah this wont break the meta" unban. I don't think a retest would be a complete waste of time (although I'd say im like 52% in favor of one actually happening).
The matchup is more than playable for dragon; it has access to both Raging Bolt and Kyurem. I fail to see how dragon cannot still smash water into smithereens; to argue water now beats dragon seems like bad faith.

Calling a metagame "balanced' when people load "dragon or anti-dragon" doesn't seem right to me; such a metagame seems overcentralized, not balanced. Not going to argue whether an overcentralized metagame where dragon smashes everything that doesn't explicitly prepare for it is good or bad, but don't call it balanced when it very clearly isn't.

Could water be the best type in the tier with an iron bundle unban? Maybe. I'm not sure; the mon is good but has noticeable drawbacks. For example, the pokepaste linked above looks great until you realize that water doesn't have the greatest hazard control (and note that dragon even commonly runs a spinblocker); and obviously if you're running slowking + specs iron bundle you really want rocks off the field; taking a fat 25% off chilly every time you come in kinda ruins the point IMO. I'm definitely in favor of a retest.
 
Forget freeing any mon like Iron Bundle, or even any Pokemon from our banlist. I've made sure to do a double take of the current banlist and there's nothing worth freeing. What I would like to discuss with this post is an element of our banlist that, due to the recent changes in overall tiering policy, doesn't seem to be consistent and should be a point of discussion with our playerbase. And that element is Booster Energy.

The Context regarding Tiering Policy

Monotype has its own "Tiering Philosophy" which is linked here which always comes up when people are questioning why there aren't any type bans or why we shouldn't think about not banning mons like Bax/Chien-Pao because it would "kill mono ice" (it kinda did but we shouldn't care.) One important part of that philosophy states "Ban Pokemon that are broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy as defined in the official tiering policy framework." This highlights that the Monotype Tiering Philosophy is essentially a subset of the Official Tiering Policy. Why am I focusing on this exactly?

In June, the Tiering Policy was updated with two sections, C and D. Section C defines Why Pokemon are the Primary Target of Tiering Action and section D defines Exceptional Elements: When Non-Pokemon Bans May Be Considered. Some of you reading might already be assuming what I'm trying to get at here but I will continue to explain my reasoning. It is more Section D that is relevant to my argument so let us focus on this. Section D states that there are rare instances where a non-Pokemon element is deemed so inherently broken that banning specific Pokemon cannot solve the core problem and it explicitly states 3 Exceptional Elements to consider.
  1. Inherently Broken Nature
  2. Universal Applicability Across Eligible Users
  3. No plausible Scenario for Balance
The problem the Booster Energy ban contradicts is when it states in the second Exceptional Element "The element is not just situationally powerful on one or two Pokemon; it is universally problematic across all or most potential users." And "We default to banning those Pokemon rather than the [non-Pokemon element itself]."

At the time of the ban, Iron Crown, Iron Leaves, Walking Wake, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire did not exist so we had 14 Pokemon that could use Booster Energy and Iron Bundle was the next ban after Booster Energy and the only Pokemon noted in the ban explanation at the time that were problematic with the item were Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon and of course, Flutter Mane. This was not an unanimous choice, as the council was "torn between two decisions" and in the end, it was a choice to preserve pokemon and diversity in our metagame which was in its infancy. The issue now is Tiering Policy doesn't want us to make decisions like "saving pokemon" and we have to primarily focus on Pokemon Bans where applicable. Say there's a scenario where Booster Energy makes the aforementioned three unbalanced again, in addition to perhaps Raging Bolt, then the correct response would be banning all four, not forsaking Booster Energy for the remaining 14 Paradoxes which are legal in the format. Section D furthermore states a "Review Mechanism" that even Exceptional elements should be revisited so we have an obligation to really look at the Booster Energy ban and determine "hey, this is no longer in line with tiering policy, what should we do about this?"

One thing I would like to note as well is in Section C where it says "Preservation of Identity." Booster Energy is intrinsically tied to every Paradox Pokemon and Pokemon like Iron Boulder, Iron Crown and maybe Iron Thorns sure would appreciate being able to use their signature item. I consider this to be "fundamentally altering the Pokemon, diminishing its identity and intended role."

Conclusion

I don't suggest a Booster Energy ban just for the sake of unbanning stuff. I want tiering to stay consistent which I can say Monotype can do better, considering Sleep Clause Mod is still in our tier. This will also not be the first time Booster Energy has been discussed so I'm not bringing this out of nowhere. Where we currently have a tier that the playerbase apparently considers "fine", perhaps a Booster Energy unban would be the crack in the dam that frees all the water but it might be the necessary change that could see more people enjoying a future metagame more than the metagame we have right now.
 
Forget freeing any mon like Iron Bundle, or even any Pokemon from our banlist. I've made sure to do a double take of the current banlist and there's nothing worth freeing. What I would like to discuss with this post is an element of our banlist that, due to the recent changes in overall tiering policy, doesn't seem to be consistent and should be a point of discussion with our playerbase. And that element is Booster Energy.

The Context regarding Tiering Policy

Monotype has its own "Tiering Philosophy" which is linked here which always comes up when people are questioning why there aren't any type bans or why we shouldn't think about not banning mons like Bax/Chien-Pao because it would "kill mono ice" (it kinda did but we shouldn't care.) One important part of that philosophy states "Ban Pokemon that are broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy as defined in the official tiering policy framework." This highlights that the Monotype Tiering Philosophy is essentially a subset of the Official Tiering Policy. Why am I focusing on this exactly?

In June, the Tiering Policy was updated with two sections, C and D. Section C defines Why Pokemon are the Primary Target of Tiering Action and section D defines Exceptional Elements: When Non-Pokemon Bans May Be Considered. Some of you reading might already be assuming what I'm trying to get at here but I will continue to explain my reasoning. It is more Section D that is relevant to my argument so let us focus on this. Section D states that there are rare instances where a non-Pokemon element is deemed so inherently broken that banning specific Pokemon cannot solve the core problem and it explicitly states 3 Exceptional Elements to consider.
  1. Inherently Broken Nature
  2. Universal Applicability Across Eligible Users
  3. No plausible Scenario for Balance
The problem the Booster Energy ban contradicts is when it states in the second Exceptional Element "The element is not just situationally powerful on one or two Pokemon; it is universally problematic across all or most potential users." And "We default to banning those Pokemon rather than the [non-Pokemon element itself]."

At the time of the ban, Iron Crown, Iron Leaves, Walking Wake, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire did not exist so we had 14 Pokemon that could use Booster Energy and Iron Bundle was the next ban after Booster Energy and the only Pokemon noted in the ban explanation at the time that were problematic with the item were Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon and of course, Flutter Mane. This was not an unanimous choice, as the council was "torn between two decisions" and in the end, it was a choice to preserve pokemon and diversity in our metagame which was in its infancy. The issue now is Tiering Policy doesn't want us to make decisions like "saving pokemon" and we have to primarily focus on Pokemon Bans where applicable. Say there's a scenario where Booster Energy makes the aforementioned three unbalanced again, in addition to perhaps Raging Bolt, then the correct response would be banning all four, not forsaking Booster Energy for the remaining 14 Paradoxes which are legal in the format. Section D furthermore states a "Review Mechanism" that even Exceptional elements should be revisited so we have an obligation to really look at the Booster Energy ban and determine "hey, this is no longer in line with tiering policy, what should we do about this?"

One thing I would like to note as well is in Section C where it says "Preservation of Identity." Booster Energy is intrinsically tied to every Paradox Pokemon and Pokemon like Iron Boulder, Iron Crown and maybe Iron Thorns sure would appreciate being able to use their signature item. I consider this to be "fundamentally altering the Pokemon, diminishing its identity and intended role."

Conclusion

I don't suggest a Booster Energy ban just for the sake of unbanning stuff. I want tiering to stay consistent which I can say Monotype can do better, considering Sleep Clause Mod is still in our tier. This will also not be the first time Booster Energy has been discussed so I'm not bringing this out of nowhere. Where we currently have a tier that the playerbase apparently considers "fine", perhaps a Booster Energy unban would be the crack in the dam that frees all the water but it might be the necessary change that could see more people enjoying a future metagame more than the metagame we have right now.
I would like to point out Booster DID get unbanned at the start of DLC2 and then got immediately rebanned alongside everything else has seen here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...o-more-are-now-banned-in-sv-monotype.3732790/. In my opinion a booster energy unban would hurt the Monotype Metagame more than help it as it would be removing a lot of reasonably healthy, and flutter, for no real reason.
A short list real quick.
Banned (probably): :Flutter Mane: :Iron Valiant: :Roaring Moon: :Iron Boulder: (all of whom where listed in the ban post for booster) I would probably also add on :Raging Bolt: as it could probably shred a lot of stuff with booster, especially after a CM boost. Maybe :Iron Crown: as well, but that one is hard to say as people would probably stick to Weakness policy stuff for awhile.

This would basically have fairy completely collapse in on itself and turn it entirely into a bad matchup fish type alla something like Rock or Elec while Ghost and Fighting lose very important mons with Ghost losing a lot of leg room against Dark threats while Fighting is forced to use either Kommo-O or Keldeo to pick up the slack, both of whom lack the sheer versatility of Valiant (Kommo-O needs that turn of setup to be a threat and has super hard 4MMS while Keldeo struggles into dedicated special walls and is hard walled by Pex, Prim, Amoonguss, Sinistcha, and Water Absorb Clodsire, non of which Fighting wants to let in easily).
Rock would lose vital speed control to check Meowscarada, Greninja, and Sneasler and same would apply for Psychic just remove Sneasler. Crown would remove a solid anti Fairy mon along with a strong Expanding force mon (one of the main psychic teams on ladder now is a crown Psychic terrain squad)
Dragon would lose its best Scarfer having to fall back to the lati twins (and dark would lose moon, who cares) and Bolt being gone would remove a ton of special attacking oomph Dragon has, and gut electric even more than it already has been.

And what are we gaining? What is left (even keeping crown in) would not be a lot that would want to use booster consistently.
:Sandy Shocks: likes to pivot on Ground and Electric as it sets Gravity/Hazards so boots would likely still see plenty of usage. This though is probably my bet for the mon that gains the most out of booster.
:Iron Crown: As mentioned Prior, I think it would mainly stick to weakness policy sets, but anything outside of that would likely run booster, and I do see this spiraling out of control. Granted, this would is certainly one that would need to be proven as busted.
:Iron Jugulis: probably wins here being able to provide something thanks to booster enabling to do good work into Ghost, but its also Jugulis.
:Iron Moth: likely gains a new position on Fire as a speed control threat, but not much more and the power lose would be noticable and for Poison, you lose the ability to check Landorus-I along with Poison really desiring the breaking power of specs (hell even boots which hits harder unless you run max SpA which then runs into not being fast enough) to get through stuff.
:Iron Hands: would probably still run Assault Vest most often, even on SD sets thanks to being able to bluff it being AV it would likely keep to a berry.
:Iron Treads: might use it for a lead set on Ground but would probably keep to Balloon on Steel.
:Great Tusk: could get something out of it on Ground as well while Fighting probably doesn't have a good place for it as Tusk does like to come in and do defensive stuff multiple times throughout a game.
:Walking Wake:
likes Specs, and losing out on being able to click Draco Meteor and pivot is a huge pill to swallow.
:Scream Tail: boots wish consistency would trump a one time defense boost.
:Slither Wing: I don't see gaining much use as you cannot proc a speed boost and you would like to click First Impression more than once.
:Iron Thorns:, :Iron Leaves:, and :Brute Bonnet: likely do not gain a place thanks to booster. Okay, maybe Leaves to check Poison for Grass but even then, its questionable as its slower than Scarf Sneasler and dies to U-turn, along with struggling to come in on most Poison-types anyway (especially Amoonguss, Weez-G, Iron Moth, AMuk, and Pecharunt making it required to come in on a sack). It would also make it not good at checking Fighting either for Grass due to the Sneasler problem.




In just general, I still think the tier needs more stuff gone (see my post from basically every survey) than it needs added, but adding booster to remove stuff is not the ideal way in my opinion.
If we really need to allow something back into the tier, I say Ban Speed Boost (the ability) and re-add Blaziken and Espathra I guess? But at that point, who really would be happy with that cause we're removing the main reason to run two mons just for the sake of pleasing bored people who will use it for a day, then go back to the same few types/teams.
 
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Forget freeing any mon like Iron Bundle, or even any Pokemon from our banlist. I've made sure to do a double take of the current banlist and there's nothing worth freeing. What I would like to discuss with this post is an element of our banlist that, due to the recent changes in overall tiering policy, doesn't seem to be consistent and should be a point of discussion with our playerbase. And that element is Booster Energy.

The Context regarding Tiering Policy

Monotype has its own "Tiering Philosophy" which is linked here which always comes up when people are questioning why there aren't any type bans or why we shouldn't think about not banning mons like Bax/Chien-Pao because it would "kill mono ice" (it kinda did but we shouldn't care.) One important part of that philosophy states "Ban Pokemon that are broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy as defined in the official tiering policy framework." This highlights that the Monotype Tiering Philosophy is essentially a subset of the Official Tiering Policy. Why am I focusing on this exactly?

In June, the Tiering Policy was updated with two sections, C and D. Section C defines Why Pokemon are the Primary Target of Tiering Action and section D defines Exceptional Elements: When Non-Pokemon Bans May Be Considered. Some of you reading might already be assuming what I'm trying to get at here but I will continue to explain my reasoning. It is more Section D that is relevant to my argument so let us focus on this. Section D states that there are rare instances where a non-Pokemon element is deemed so inherently broken that banning specific Pokemon cannot solve the core problem and it explicitly states 3 Exceptional Elements to consider.
  1. Inherently Broken Nature
  2. Universal Applicability Across Eligible Users
  3. No plausible Scenario for Balance
The problem the Booster Energy ban contradicts is when it states in the second Exceptional Element "The element is not just situationally powerful on one or two Pokemon; it is universally problematic across all or most potential users." And "We default to banning those Pokemon rather than the [non-Pokemon element itself]."

At the time of the ban, Iron Crown, Iron Leaves, Walking Wake, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire did not exist so we had 14 Pokemon that could use Booster Energy and Iron Bundle was the next ban after Booster Energy and the only Pokemon noted in the ban explanation at the time that were problematic with the item were Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon and of course, Flutter Mane. This was not an unanimous choice, as the council was "torn between two decisions" and in the end, it was a choice to preserve pokemon and diversity in our metagame which was in its infancy. The issue now is Tiering Policy doesn't want us to make decisions like "saving pokemon" and we have to primarily focus on Pokemon Bans where applicable. Say there's a scenario where Booster Energy makes the aforementioned three unbalanced again, in addition to perhaps Raging Bolt, then the correct response would be banning all four, not forsaking Booster Energy for the remaining 14 Paradoxes which are legal in the format. Section D furthermore states a "Review Mechanism" that even Exceptional elements should be revisited so we have an obligation to really look at the Booster Energy ban and determine "hey, this is no longer in line with tiering policy, what should we do about this?"

One thing I would like to note as well is in Section C where it says "Preservation of Identity." Booster Energy is intrinsically tied to every Paradox Pokemon and Pokemon like Iron Boulder, Iron Crown and maybe Iron Thorns sure would appreciate being able to use their signature item. I consider this to be "fundamentally altering the Pokemon, diminishing its identity and intended role."

Conclusion

I don't suggest a Booster Energy ban just for the sake of unbanning stuff. I want tiering to stay consistent which I can say Monotype can do better, considering Sleep Clause Mod is still in our tier. This will also not be the first time Booster Energy has been discussed so I'm not bringing this out of nowhere. Where we currently have a tier that the playerbase apparently considers "fine", perhaps a Booster Energy unban would be the crack in the dam that frees all the water but it might be the necessary change that could see more people enjoying a future metagame more than the metagame we have right now.
I'll go ahead and say that in my opinion, with Booster's existence or not, certain sets are preferred to stay as they are since we're talking about a consumable item (that does not have a second use) and with any matchup happening for any pokemon capable of using Booster Energy, you can almost just force something to switch out and you just lost your boost that you wouldn't have had to worry about in the first place unless you get hit by Trick or Knock off. (Primary example would be if you want to run Booster Energy Walking Wake and still end up getting walled by Hisuian Goodra so your best shot is hitting again or switching out and if you do, you lose your boost the next time it comes out, whereas Choice Specs will always retain that 1.5x power boost for as long as Wake is alive and maintains it), so my whole point goes that it's not really going to see much in usage stats at all against other items

My other point is that i feel like specific pokemon should just not get anywhere close to Booster Energy, We are talking
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and all the pokemon that Monotype already has a discussion on them being suspected in the first place due to their overwhelming power, do we really want a meta where Flutter Mane still retains a power boost to its special attack or a handicapless equivalent of Choice Scarf that can just outright click any move it desires and even with its gargantuan 135 base special attack. would net OHKO's and at least, dish enough damage that a teammate will come to finish the job?

It's just what Penga said, some pokemon will certainly benefit off of the item itself since they could transform into promising defensive or offensive powerhouses such as
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, But we do need to consider some of the more... threatning pokemon of the metagame.
 
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I'm also not a fan of iron bundle, but I do like the idea of just seeing how the metagame is occasionally with a different threat. Perhaps a week of something that is truly or perceived to be broken to be allowed in for a week here or there just to play with. That might be annoying to the one who has to implement it, but the council just saying "iron bundle is unbanned" flatly and then a week later "iron bundle is banned" sounds fun.

That aside, mewtwo or maybe allowing an arceus form but banning all the other plates sounds kinda fun to me. Free arceus rock, but then ban every other plate so it isn't a complex ban. also, i only picked mewtwo because psychic seems poop but since he is a single type you wouldn't be boosting another type. Having espathra banned but mewtwo allowed would look really odd though haha.

Edit: I only mention arceus because i believe with him on rock it could still suck. I'm not really a fan of balancing all the types because I think it is fun using types that are bad, makes for good underdog games. I'm arguing that rock is potentially worse than it should be. Although as a con it would clutter up the banned items list.

We do have mons that slay other types and make specific matchups pretty crap. We definitely do not balance to make matchups fair. Espathra was annoying in a boosting way, whereas landorus is brutal for poison in a more "general?" way. If arceus made the game unfun like espathra, im not married to the idea. I just think it isn't unreasonable to imagine. Mewtwo or normal deoxys are definitely the easiest to play with because they wouldn't clutter up the banned item list, just comes down to the mons.
 
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Well, I thought that this Generation’s Monotype was going well after the ban of Gouging Fire and that Fire has calmed down, but oh boy was I wrong. While Gouging Fire was a problem that rightfully was banned, there was another behemoth that tool its place, and you know Who it is, the HATEABLE moth, Volcarona!

:sv/volcarona: :SV/ninetales:

➤ Volcarona causing troubles in Fire teams under the sun:

Volcarona has good stats all around with 100 Speed and 135 Special Attack, except for attack and defence, not to mention it has access to Quicer dance, arguably the most broken boosting move. It also has a good duo type combination in Fire and Bug, resisting moves for Fairy, Fighting types. While it has glaring weaknesses of Rock and Water, Volcarona can set up itself under the Sun for 8 turns, which is unfair, halving the damage from Water types. As foir coverage moves, Volcarona isn't starving as it has Giga Drain for >Water, Psychic for Poison and Morning Sun (Healing up to 66% under sun) for healing. While its ability isnt the greatest, Flame Body has its fair share of usefulness by burning Pókemon that makes contact with it. Plus in case of Stealth Rock, Volcarona always carries. If thats not the case However, it still has Torkoal with Rapid Spin and Cinderace with Court Change to get rid of hazards. Plus not many pokemon have Rock coverage, that is IF the moves hit in the first place.

All these points make it so that Volcarona is a VERY serious threat to the opponent, even having huge possibilities to win many games with only clicking Quiver Dance under the sun (with Flame Body), even in games that on paper Fire should struggle with. For example, to support my argument, I have some replays to show you.

Feen VS LogIce (Dragon VS Fire): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-856194 (:Volcarona:)

Vlarcheops [Me] VS MattAndMello (Water VS Fire):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2450026859-0w8icg1fgcpbs0g7itl6adt7ev7u3mapw (:Volcarona:)

:sv/volcarona: :sv/araquanid:

➤ Volcarona bugging People in Bug matchups:

Hell, even OUTSIDE of Fire, the damned Moth still can cause some trouble. While Bug is the only Type it can be played with, it is STILL a threat to be reckoned with. Volcarona in Bug teams functions as the same as with Fire teams, however it doesn't have sun with it. Should it be more manageable? Well... Quiver Dance will STILL make Volcarona one stage faster and (specially) stronger each time its used. Bug teams also has Removal in Forretress and teammates that can threaten Pókemon that "could" threaten it like Flutter Mane or Heatran (IF they have Rock coverage in the first place...). Plus there’s Sticky Web from Araquanid, Ribombee or Galvantula, slowing down threats for Volcarona to destroy.

Here's a wounderfull example for my argument...

Bug VS Fire (Kyloooren VS Vodoom): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2438854406 (:Volcarona:)



➤ My thoughts in the end on Volcarona:

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At the end of the day, Pókemon that could actually threaten or wall Volcarona re few and far between like Heatran, Blissey or Pòkemon faster than it like Flutter Mane (either its Protosynthesis is activated by Sun or it has a Choice Scarf), (Scarf) Landoruns-I with Rock Slide and much more. Though these problems could be easily be overcome by Volcarona's teammates (Whenever Fire or Bug). Not to mention IF some of these 'mons have actual TRock coverage, if that isn't the case, well... It's gonna be rough for ya!

While offensive sets are dangerous, the Bulky stes is what push Volcarona over the edge: inversing in HP and bulk, burning Pókemon via Flame Body or Will-O-Wisp and spamming Quiver Dance, increasing its Special Attack, Special Defence and Speed each time its used, Morning Sun as recovering option and STAB Flamethrower (that cound be under the sun for 8 GODDAMNED turns) and you have got yourself a demon too fast, powerfula and bulky to kill.

All I am saying is that Volcarona is a Pókemon that should be looked at, even suspect tested. Its abilites to win games on its own is kind of ridiculous if I have to be hones, but that's just me. Overall, I don't think Volcarona is a healthy presence in the tier, besides I am not the onbly one to think of this...

P. S. Thanks TheWyvernKing, got it corrected, Morning Sun does 66% healing up under sun instead of 75%
 
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Morning Sun (Healing up to 75% under sun) for healing.
Small nitpick, but no Morning Sun Doesn't heal 75% under the Sun.
All these points make it so that Volcarona is a VERY serious threat to the opponent, even having huge possibilities to win many games with only clicking Quiver Dance under the sun (with Flame Body), even in games that on paper Fire should struggle with. For example, to support my argument, I have some replays to show you.
Going to quickly point out, while Volc is a massive threat, I don't think I've really seen any teams resorting to drastic measures to actually answer it. Usually it's moreso the case that you make a team and realize you lost to Volc because you misplayed, or you didn't really care enough/didn't think it was too worth covering and so you decided to trade off what you normally would run for secondary options and end up with random shit like no haze toxapex.
These are skill issues.
 
I agree with TWK on most points and on a ban or at least suspect about heat rock (things ive put in surveys long time ago).

Tho. In fire, there is only one good set which is Bulkyrona. Offensive is missing the point of winning dragon, fighting, flying, most neutral MUs while enjoying Cinderace and Ogerpon-H dealing with Heatran, water mons, hazards, physical threats, etc.
In bug you cant benefit from it the same way since you need to deal with Urshifu-R and poison type so you can't run substitute with the help of the team burning every mons (frenchies cook snails :goodra-hisui: for a reason).

While I agree it's a bit dumbly strong, I don't agree with your way of thinking at all. It’s just most people dont use cover for it and/or underestimate it ingame letting it setup freely for nothing (i cant count the number of time my oppo clicked a move that let me set up so I win while I played outrageously bad since lead)
 
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