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Played ADV PU for the first time and enjoyed it. Thought I would bump the the thread and share my thoughts on the tier and mons in it with a rough viability ranking. I don't like plus and minuses and its not in order in tiers. ADV PU is in a good spot. Nothing felt too overwhelming or I didnt feel restricted in the builder which is always enjoyable for me.
This mon is rivals ADV UU Kanga in viability which is quite wild. As time went on I see why you couldnt build without it. It's an important element to the speed dynamic to the tier which also serves as an offensive or defensive pivot with the coverage to boot. Rightfully the only S tier and wont change ever I feel. Trapping in this tier is kinda lame but when is it not. The more bulky sets can get great value. With paralysis being common it also enables the mon even to higher degree. I'm not a fan of this mon... I see the why it deserves high praise being one of the few ground immunes with reasonable bulk and free serene grace psychic clicks. I always saw my self wanting to use another sp def wall like nair/swalot or use abra for my psychic clicking needs. I will probably see the light in the future and build something where I enjoy it. Super slept on. Psychic in lower tiers is always free. Paired with a great speed tier in the metagame it can go a long way. With only move you need being psychic you can explore with moves like Encore, Twave, Sub, Punches, HP water, CM etc.
e: this turned out a lot sappier and more long-winded than I expected it to be but the first paragraph should explain why this feels like a big deal to me.
After much consideration, I have decided to step down as caretaker of the tier. My motivation has been at an all time low for Pokemon stuff in general and I think this is the best course of action both for myself and the tier. Next month will mark my 10th year on Pokemon Showdown (23rd year as a Pokemon player) and while I don't think I'll ever fully quit Pokemon, I have felt a shift over the past few months or so towards other things in my life. I've been dragging my feet on updating resources for a long time, getting sample teams, and just the general upkeep it requires and I've only done what I have mainly because of ZU's community asking me to do so. I won't be fully disappearing as I still am passionate about the tier, I just don't have the time to be in charge of it anymore. I'm grateful to see the changes that have happened since I took over the tier almost THREE YEARS AGO and proud to see how much the tier has grown since, now being included in large tours like PUPL, ADVPL, and having its own part in the PU Classic, and making the push for Old Gen lower tiers to have their own subforums for resources and discussion.
Wanna give shoutouts to a few key people as well: Akir My fellow oldgen supporter, I quite literally couldn't have done it without you. You were the one who gave me the opportunity after all and have always been available to ask for advice, vent, or just casually chat. I probably couldn't say thank you enough. Slowbroth The original ADV caretaker, always there to offer advice as well. You laid out the ground work to turn this tier into what it is today, I just built off of what you started. Drud One of my closer friends on this site, you might not have had as much of an impact on ADV as these other people but you have always been there to talk and bounce ideas off of (or just listen to me complain about shit). I really appreciate you bro. LilyLordSTMedeiaGangsta SpongebobMrSoupTSR At some point or another, all of you played the meta enough to have a say in some decisions, an unofficial council of sorts. Whether it was VR voting, figuring out what we wanted to do with Baton Pass, or voting on bans, you have all helped this tier become what it is on a more technical side.
Finally, I want to thank everyone who has played ADV PU over the past few years. As I already said, we took a relatively unknown, rarely played metagame and turned it into something that has become a mainstay in both the ADV and PU communities. We couldn't have done that without you, the people who actually play the game. Thank you.
I have the pleasure of announcing that the next ADV PU caretaker will be plznostep, a great player who I'm very confident will do a fantastic job of doing what needs to be done to keep the tier growing and improving. It'll likely take a bit to get things switched over to him in here, and I wouldn't expect any changes to happen before the end of PUPL but I know I'm leaving the future of the tier in good hands.
Played this metagame for a tiny bit when trying to learn it for ADV slam and I really enjoy it! I like how fresh the playerbase is to this meta and it made entry very refreshing when I can toss out ideas and try to understand the meta a lil better. One of these said ideas is the reason for this post, when I brought this up in short concept to a friend I said it might be something but has its flaws here and there. When I opened the idea up to the wider public we started optimizing the spreads a little more and people started building new comps with it, and I feel like this Pokemon has a genuine place in the ADV PU metagame. This Pokemon that I'm talking about would be... Numel.
Numel @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 128 HP / 120 Atk / 152 SpA / 4 SpD / 104 Spe
Mild Nature
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Toxic
- Protect / Hidden Power Grass
Although Numel's base stats are kinda terrible (highest base stat is 65 :skull:), its typing really carries it. Minun doesn't run Hidden Power Water at all so Numel consistently gains entry on it and pressures switches with its great STAB combination or Toxic. Ground switch-ins typically dont like taking Numel head-on, while typical Fire switch-ins get hit with EQ or Toxic, or Marshtomp can even get bopped by HP Grass. Numel's neutrality to ice and grass while not taking much damage from the defensive users of these moves means it isn't uncommon for Numel to find entry against bulkier teams, pressuring the likes of Minun, Swalot, Duskull, Dragonair, Mawile, Tangela, Magcargo, and Pineco. Being immune to T-wave while aptly pressuring the T-wavers is great in paraspam tier too, making it less vulnerable to getting Trapinch'ed.
Its winning 1v1 matchups vs Minun, Pineco, and Charmeleon, the three most common leads in the tier, also makes it a very good lead! Numel can even safely click Toxic against these leads on turn 1 to catch a bulky water switching in, its just so good at generating momentum. Not only does it win against these leads but even oddball leads like Combusken, Grovyle, and Swalot lose to it on average, and against physical leads like Furret and Arbok it can use Protect against to scout.
The EV spread may seem weird but I promise every EV here counts. 120 Attack 3HKOs Dnair while consistently OHKOing Seviper and Minun, 152+ Special Attack OHKOs spdef Pineco and offensive Trapinch while 2HKOing pdef Duskull, the Speed outspeeds offensive Trapinch and min speed Swalot, the HP is a lefties number + 1 to mitigate passive damage, and while the one point in spdef is generally a dump, it consistently lives a 2HKO from Charmeleon Fire Blast from full so that's cool. In the past I've used max HP / SpD with Sassy, but I quickly realized offensive spreads are a bit better since Minun still bounces and the offensive pressure + outspeeding pinch outweighs the bulk. Do note with Mild Numel has a bit more trouble switching into Swalot Sludge Bomb (or CB Arbok Sludge Bomb) but you can also pivot around Swalot's coverage. I think toxic protect is generally best and hp grass kinda helps into marsh and omanyte if you can afford it, but other options like Rest w HBell Lickitung exist too.
I would talk about comps but I think its something a wider group of people should explore before we truly know, although one synergy I found is with Furret, as Numel switches into Furret's usual switchins such as Duskull Mawile Tangela and Magcargo (i wish it switched into Graveler lol) as well as Minun trying to offensively check Furret.
Anyway, despite its flaws, quite a few of there being if that wasn't obvious, I do think Numel has a real place in ADV PU. IMO Its not quite the Chinchou fad that happened a year ago where all it does is kinda check Minun and Sealeo, everything just carries HP Grass anyway bc of Marshtomp's existence. If Numel picks up in tournaments and gets ranked on the VR that would be awesome, even if it ends up being C alongside other mons that have a tiny niche (although ik some ppl like slowbroth would put it B- or C+). Even a bad ranking would mean people gave thought about it even if that thought is "that one shitmon Amity talked about". I'm glad that I got to add ADV PU to my repertoire of niche old gen lower tiers that I know and I hope to see this metagame stay fresh and exciting!
Hello, I have been building for feen throughout this year's ADVPL and the team just got eliminated so I thought I'd make a teamdump, partly because it feels like activity has slowed down and I wanna get things moving again!
Happy to say at this point prior to semi finals we finished with the top record in PU at 5-2. Of course much of this was feen's stellar piloting but I do also think we were one of the more ahead of the game teams in PU this time.
Btw, teams are linked on the sprites and replays are linked below them.
Kept it simple starting off, building around fat modest Sealeo because the power and level of compression this mon gives is nutty. Gonna see a pattern here in a few of the teams, of Duskull/Dnair + 1 backup phys tank + 1 backup sdef tank. Dnair was hard MVP this game, activating Shed Skin a lovely amount of times and just being the wincon it always is lol. Combusken was really scary for this team but feen took the right route of hard trading with the Furret and getting it in range for any of our walls to kill later game.
This was a flop week for my prep, I said "we gotta watch out for Lily recycles" in the team cord and then we led Seviper into Lily's Trapinch team that I literally helped build in PUBD lmao. Here you can see a key flaw in teams that rely on Seviper to break fat mons like Lickitung - if anything goes wrong then you simply can't break. It's a pretty standard balance team aside from that, brought back the fat modest seal bc it's incredible. Not hard recommended to run this team due to needing to work extra hard to keep Seviper alive.
I kinda love this team with the shnasty Slowbroth Ancient Power Togetic, things didn't quite work out with some awkward pivoting around Mawile followed by literally endless para turns/misses/etc, to the point Monai said "sorry we couldn't have a real game". I think the Tenta+Shuckle idea was a bit PUBD-pilled and didnt fully work into the (slightly outdated) ADVPL meta but I would run this team back anyway. Tentacool is a mon you bring to prep for both Spikes and Clamperl in the same slot, and covers Shuckle wonderfully who walls practically everything else. AP Resttalk Togetic is kinda cheesy, but rly good at catching balance teams off guard and provides a good mixture of offensive and defensive presence.
This week we decided it was about time to get really serious with breaking which can only mean one thing - The Perl. If you think this team is familiar that's because this is the team I built for Quarante8 in PUBD but with a Togetic over the Duskull. The Togetic helped quite a lot as we already had a normal resist in Mawile and being less of a momentum sink plus packing the extra twave turned out to be exactly what the doctor ordered. The key idea behind the team is obvious - SubPass into hard to wall mons, and it's kinda broken and I know I'm not the only player who has been thinking SubPass is becoming degenerate in Adv PU. Screech is a fun tech on Arbok that lets us take hold of the initiative on switches, feen didn't quite read properly on turns 8-9 here with Screech->Sludge rather than Screech->EQ but even that could have paid off if the poison came in. Screech Bok is more suited to Spikes teams overall thanks to forcing out the Spikes immune stuff like Toge/Dusk in for their backup tank, but it can still work on a team like this because of how much momentum it can generate behind a Sub.
We were tasked with ending the mind gaming winstreak and to break our even record. We knew straight away we wanted to bring Spikes, as we hadn't brought it before and it looked pretty good into scout. I have been toying around with trying to make Encore Minun + Yawn Swalot + Spikes work for a fairly long time now but struggling to get the right combo of mons. I ended up settling on an unusual pick, Mightyena, because it's hard to run Pineco+Minun+Swalot without Heal Bell but the main beller of the tier Lickitung is too passive, plus Howl Yena is underrated tbh. I also wanted to pack lead Sealeo as a counterpick to all the lead Charmeleons we were seeing and the fact we had been running a lot of ground-weak leads, and the lead paid off perfectly. Anyway feen was getting ahead in the game with some nice pivoting against mg's pretty cool abra+porygon team, then mg misread a turn on Swalot and got omega punished by a crit fire punch and instantly forfeited. With that we didn't get to show off the Yena or the Encore or Yawn, but this was one of my fav teams to test with and I'll def play with it again.
Bit of a more normal this team returning to the boring Duskull + Dragonair core and boring Charm lead, scout looked lovely for Pinch so we said let's trap Swalot and then win the game - so we did, but for bonus measure feen also para'd the charm and read the double perfectly and trapped it too. From that point it was just a matter of keeping Dragonair alive as the wincon. Wartortle was a nice mixed tank option with a spread Lily had come up with in PUBD, allowed us to tank stuff while still covering spikes. It got crit and had a hard time but still did stuff anyway.
We brought out the lead Grovyle for last week as we knew we'd ran like 80% ground weak leads and wanted to counterlead, and saw a lot of Swalots in scout and wanted to lure it. Ended up packing HP Fire on Grov to make our Spikes MU better and once again didn't end up facing Spikes (we must have anti-Spikes'd too close to the sun) and did end up facing a Dnair lead which we didn't expect, but Grovyle still got a solid kill on Togetic thanks to Endeavor. Also thought Shtomp was nice into the MU and it was - we were initially gonna run with an Ice Beam Shtomp + some phys breaker like Furret but we realised we were already gearing up the team to hate on Tangela so we ran Surf instead. Once we had a standard para core we knew Seviper was the move, redeeming her turn 1 death in week 2 massively as feen got a ton of clean reads with it, leading to a nice W and rounding out the 5-2 record.
Shout out to Just_Leonardo for hanging around and letting me bounce ideas off, and to FJ2K for being a good supportive manager. Hope to see yall around in future tours and hopefully with a price tag to my name next time
Shout out to @Just_Leonardo for hanging around and letting me bounce ideas off, and to @FJ2K for being a good supportive manager. Hope to see yall around in future tours and hopefully with a price
Over the past few years of the tier's existence, ADV PU has enjoyed an increased presence in ADV and PU tournaments. What has emerged is a centralized but balanced metagame revolving around the tier's nigh-100% usage Pokemon, Minun.
Minun @ Leftovers
Ability: Minus
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunder Wave / Encore
- Baton Pass
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
Minun has been a pillar of ADV PU since its inception, reaching almost unanimous 100% usage in almost every team tournament. It's simply the strongest, most immediately threatening speed control the tier has access to. Minun is often tasked with checking itself in ADV PU, as it resists an opposing Minun's thunderbolt, and Minuns both threaten each other with Thunder Wave, which often forces it out on both sides and allows the game to proceed, or both Minun end up paralyzed and much easier for both teams to handle. In recent times however, this Minun mirror dynamic that kept them both in check is changing.
Minun @ Leftovers
Ability: Minus
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Seismic Toss/Hidden Power Grass/Thunder Wave
Substitute + Baton Pass Minun can significantly effect the Minun mirror match-up and swings the game wildly to one player or the other's favor depending on who wins the Minun speed tie. If an Offensive Minun is facing down a Substitute Baton Pass Minun, Offensive Minun has the opportunity to Thunder Wave and cripple the Substitute Minun, but if Substitute Minun wins the speed tie, the other Minun is unable to break the Substitute and the SubPass player has a massive momentum advantage due winning the speed-tie coin flip. The Substitute can't be broken, so the SubPass player can choose any Pokemon on their team to receive that Substitute for a free turn. This swing of momentum can easily be game deciding, depending on the SubPass abuser that is or isn't allowed to come in for absolutely free, which makes for less skill expression in a game and more speed ties deciding important turns even moreso than before.
The SubPass set not only abuses opposing offensive Minun, it takes advantage of Minun's good special bulk to keep its Substitute versus a variety of passive ADV PU walls. Pokemon like Dragonair, Tangela, Togetic all can't break Minun's Substitute with their standard moveset. This free Substitute lets many wallbreakers that are normally limited by offensive pressure such as Charmeleon, Seviper, Combusken, and Seadra switch in much more freely with significantly less risk. Substitute + Baton Pass makes all of these already strong wallbreakers more difficult to prepare for.
A particularly nasty pairing with this Minun set is Shedinja, a Pokemon that when given a free Substitute, completely walls many Pokemon that rely on status to remove or cripple it. If two Minuns face off in the mirror and SubPass minun passes a Substitute to Shedinja, it will wall the other Minun completely, forcing a switch while staying behind a sub. Shedinja can even use baton pass itself to pass the Substitute back to Minun if a pokemon slower than Shedinja comes in to threaten it with a super effective move such as Tangela, in which the Substitute goes back to Minun which can start the sub pass loop all over again. If Shedinja is passed a substitute against the right team, the game can be over immediately, as shown in this replay.
Another abuser of Substitute + Baton Pass commonly seen is Clamperl. An almost unparalleled wallbreaker like Clamperl typically suffers from low speed and abyssmal special bulk, meaning it needs to take serious damage in order to wallbreak. Clamperl can often survive one hit from a non-stab Hidden power grass, but sustains heavy damage while doing so and is easy to revenge kill. When passed a Substitute however, Clamperl's lack of leftovers and low bulk is much less impactful, as it can use the Substitute to freely attack, likely killing or nearly killing any Pokemon in the tier. Clamperl is particularly troubling with SubPass because there is no defensive counterplay Clamperl and it must be pressured offensively, which SubPass can deny for one turn and give Clamperl a free kill.
A factor to consider when dealing with all the breakers that can use SubPass effectively is that the Substitute uses Minun’s HP stat regardless of which Pokemon receives the substitute, this can be particularly important for Pokemon like Clamperl, whom gains a nice HP boost on its Substitute, allowing it to survive weak attacks like Pineco’s Earthquake with a Substitute in-tact seen in this replay. Seviper and Charmelon can invest completely in speed and attack while using Minun’s higher HP for their substitute, potentially making Dragonair’s Ice Beam or Thunderbolt unable to break it in one hit.
Why then, is this not a Minun suspect test? Other Pokemon in ADV PU have access to the Substitute + Baton Pass combination, namely Mawile, which has seen use partnered with Clamperl to similarly devastate defensive cores, and even has the ability to slow-pass substitutes making them easier to preserve for Clamperl's entry.
Council does not want to suspect Minun in particular because of its role as the premier "Glue" Pokemon in the tier. It combines a temporary check to Special attackers with speed, Encore, and "Drypass" to provide momentum for its team, and is a key factor in limiting the strongest breakers in the tier such as Furret, Charmeleon, Seadra, and Seviper, all of whom can feast on slower teams if they didn't have such a good speed control Pokemon such as Minun to revenge kill them. Without being able to SubPass to an even stronger breaker, Minun does have solid checks in the tier such as Dragonair and Lickitung that have ways to mitigate or completely ignore Minun's Thunder Wave Paralysis. Minun allows players to use "slower" more balanced teams without getting completely run over by the tier's offensive threats.
Surely Baton Pass is a possible suspect, as opposed to JUST SubPass? Well, this is complicated by Trapinch. Baton Pass gives multiple pokemon, not just minun, a way to escape the orange turtle's clutchs. Preserving "DryPass" or baton pass without substitute or stat boosts, keeps Trapinch from vastly changing the metagame by making trapping much easier.
Why a suspect test and not a quickban? ADV PU council believes that all qualified voters should have a say in this decision, and some players would argue that this strategy is really only punishing specific team styles that use Pokemon that can't break Minun's substitute. In the most recent edition of PUPL, Pokemon that Minun typically sets up a free substitute against such as Dragonair have opted to run return as their coverage move over Thunderbolt to guarantee Minun's Substitute breaks in 1 hit. Opposing Minun and Togetic can also run Seismic Toss to break Minun's Sub and Tangela can run HP Grass with Special Attack investment to do the same. Adaptations to SubPass have emerged, but are they too restrictive? For example, return on Dragonair lets it deal significant damage to Seviper, who previously shrugged off paralysis with shed skin and could EV to take pitiful damage to Ice Beam and Thunderbolt from uninvested Dragonair. Togetic using seismic toss over psychic as its coverage lets it waste subpass Minun's HP on a predicted sub, but also allows it to deal significant damage to Pokemon like Shuckle that previously walled Togetic. Seismic toss on Offensive Minun or on Defensive Wish variants can also stop SubPass strategies, only conceding a free Substitute when paralyzed. SubPass Minun is also inherently limited in its move choices, meaning not all SubPass variants can run Thunder Wave.
Counterplay to SubPass
Phasing - Roar/Whirlwind are hard stops to SubPass shenanigans that would seem promising for limiting the archetype. The problem? Unlike ADV OU where Roar is widely distributed and usable on many already top tier Pokemon, ADV PU is not so lucky. Sealeo and Houndour are the 2 PU ranked pokemon with either move, but there's no prizes for figuring out why Sealeo can't exactly Roar out a substitute passing Minun. Houndour has the same issue, though its due to a general bulk problem rather than its typing. Perhaps more ZU pokemon that fare better against Minun with phasing moves can be tried to limit SubPass, Dustox is not completely unviable as it checks Minun and the strong water types, but has a rather unfortunate matchup into heavy hitter Charmeleon and is susceptible to being trapped by Trapinch which are issues Dustox can't fix easily.
Spikes - Spikes limits the amount of times that SubPass users can pull off the strategy, and has the added bonus of denying Shedinja entirely. Pineco as the premier spiker leaves a lot to be desired, but it can often get up one layer in any given game, which can be enough to limit SubPass. Clamperl, another of SubPass's premier abusers hates spikes as it can't recover the damage from leftovers. The larger issue with using Spikes to pressure SubPass, is that not every team in ADV PU can fit a Pineco or Omanyte for spikes, If teams without spikes are at a significant disadvantage versus SubPass without them, the metagame becomes significantly less diverse by crowding out the spikeless teams that have been a staple in ADV PU since inception.
~~~
To be eligible to vote in this suspect test, you must have (i) played at least 3 games in any one of PUPL, ADVPL, or PUBD with at least one win or (ii) made semifinals of the most recent ADV PU Cup. Anyone that isn't on the below list but has some stake in the future of ADV PU is still encouraged to share their opinion on Subpass in this thread, but please keep the discussion to whether or not SubPass is broken in ADV PU. If you believe that you are supposed to be on the list and have been left out, please contact me to correct it.
Gonna start off by saying I think SubPass should be banned.
My first initial argument is we have a "dry pass" ban in place that Substitute + Baton Pass covertly gets around, and on principle alone this should be enough for a ban, consistent with restricting Baton Pass to being used only by itself.
With that said, in addition to that I believe that SubPass is also broken and overly restricting in ADV PU. A large part of the purpose of using SubPass strats is the intention of exploiting free turns from paralysis, something you'll tend to get in games even if you're well prepared because this is ADV. With those free turns comes the ability to bring in the strongest breakers and progress makers in the tier at minimal to no risk, including the infamous Clamperl who is usually very hard to get in but essentially guarantees kills if it gets in. Another example of an extremely polarised SubPass recipient is Shedinja, who instead of wanting the help from the Sub to get in, precludes some of the already limited counterplay to it by preventing status and limiting what can come in on it to things that can both take a hit and break the sub - this also coming with the note that Shedinja can pass the Sub along if it really wants to.
I also think that SubPass creates unhealthy dynamics in the tier even aside from the polarised recipients. We are seeing many games swing wildly from who wins Minun speed ties and gets the Sub up first, and it's pushing fat mons to either not get run at all or run suboptimal slots like Dragonair with Return and switching up your prep isn't even necessarily going to work because of the variety of SubPassers with Minun Mawile Togetic (and some other niche options).
I think the tier has swung too far in favour of offensive structures and it's thanks mainly to SubPass. It's not necessarily that balance shouldn't have things that punish it but we already have mons like Seviper, Wigglytuff, Combusken, Graveler etc that already punish defensive cores just for existing, and those mons are only buffed further by free entry if you dare to either run a passive mon (heaven forbid) or allow a mon to be paralyzed ever. SubPass also creates a lot of dittos and coin flip situations between offensive teams, partly due to being the clear best strategy for them, that make them unfair and unpleasant.
TL;DR SubPass is 1. Not "dry pass" 2. a strategy that relies on restricting interactivity and 3. outright the strongest strategy in the tier making all other strategies way less viable. I can't emphasise this harder we need to get rid of it.
I think the tier has swung too far in favour of offensive structures and it's thanks mainly to SubPass. It's not necessarily that balance shouldn't have things that punish it but we already have mons like Seviper, Wigglytuff, Combusken, Graveler etc that already punish defensive cores just for existing, and those mons are only buffed further by free entry if you dare to either run a passive mon (heaven forbid) or allow a mon to be paralyzed ever. SubPass also creates a lot of dittos and coin flip situations between offensive teams, partly due to being the clear best strategy for them, that make them unfair and unpleasant.
I think it's very important to emphasize that we aren't and shouldn't be obligated to ban in the direction of making all styles viable. However sub pass is a very lame and flippy way to abuse defensive pivots and para as mentioned.
I've spent a good amount of time talking to plznostep sea and mielke about the tier. While a lot of us have different ideals for the tier, it's somewhat evident that paralysis is problematic. I think trapinch turns any paralysis absorber besides toge into a potential liability, especially with sub pass, and my opinion is that it should be banned regardless of how sub pass pans out.
There is justification for SubPass as it actually provides more team styles and variety, shakes up the metagame making new techs come up such as return nair, offensive nair, toss minun, lum minun etc. And i strongly feel like the main reason its hated on is because people want to keep using outdated builds which obviously get smoked by it
SubPass is good but not impossible to beat, spikes is a reliable way to cripple and dealing with + the high on seismic toss usage and other set changes such as dnair return and offnair is the organic answer of the metagame for this new strat.
Paraspam is NOT an big issue at this tier, we have a lot of shed skin users, resttalk and licky heal bell, yeah it's a burden but ur prob loading bad teams if this is your main complaint about the meta.
SubPass is a strat that makes a lot of offense styles viable and is actually something new at the metagame after a decent time, trying to get rid of it so that only the same old and dull teams are serviceable again is straight up bullshit.
The matchup is not a trouble most of the times if you have ways to deal with it, even behind a sub. If at some point of the game you find yourself helpless vs after it being revealed, it is YOUR team's fault.
I voted DNB (I also didn't know there was an actual vote prob because the tag post didn't have it and so I thought was just discussion til someone yapped at me on discord because I can't read but whatever)
most of my reasoning has to do with minun itself as it is the main abuser of this
you're using one of the most dangerous (and fast) mons in the tier as a passer instead of the monster it can be when it is devoted to its own strengths
subpass is not dangerous as long as you have the tools to deal with the recipient(s) and they do exist (yes even clamperl)
after the set is revealed I think having a less useful minun then the alternative minuns is a fair trade for some hypothetical autowin
I'd rather deal with subpass then like encore or twaving half my team
most mons can at least break its sub if you need/want to scout for minuns set (which you should be doing anyway because its minun, not some rando mon), and most mons WANT to trade with minun because its such a threat, and a sub bp minun is that much easier to trade with as it has less moves to use in direct confrontation then others minun (not to mention potentially less powerful evs)
tl;dr I think Minun has better things to do and is better at doing those things and if it wants to play around let it
other sub + BP users are a non issue far as I'm aware, as they are either slow, weak, nonexistent, obvious, or some combination of the 4, of which minun is none of
With 14 out of 21 votes (3 people abstained), Substitute + Baton Passis now banned from ADV PU! Tagging dhelmise and Marty to implement when they have the time to.
Thank you for everyone who have voted and contributed to the conversation on this topic :)
This mon is rivals ADV UU Kanga in viability which is quite wild. As time went on I see why you couldnt build without it. It's an important element to the speed dynamic to the tier which also serves as an offensive or defensive pivot with the coverage to boot. Rightfully the only S tier and wont change ever I feel.
Trapping in this tier is kinda lame but when is it not. The more bulky sets can get great value. With paralysis being common it also enables the mon even to higher degree. 
I'm not a fan of this mon... I see the why it deserves high praise being one of the few ground immunes with reasonable bulk and free serene grace psychic clicks. I always saw my self wanting to use another sp def wall like nair/swalot or use abra for my psychic clicking needs. I will probably see the light in the future and build something where I enjoy it.
Super slept on. Psychic in lower tiers is always free. Paired with a great speed tier in the metagame it can go a long way. With only move you need being psychic you can explore with moves like Encore, Twave, Sub, Punches, HP water, CM etc.
+ the high on seismic toss usage and other set changes such as dnair return and offnair is the organic answer of the metagame for this new strat.
