Resource ZU Old Gens Hub - ORAS Bans @ 379

[5gen]

ORAS ZU Viability Rankings Update (click to view voting sheet)

Hey all, ORAS ZU council recently voted on the entire VR. Congrats to estra for joining ORAS council, and thank you to each council member for voting. Credit to estra for creating the voting sheet, thanks a bunch. Here is the original voting sheet with some reasonings.

Rises

Bronzor A to A+
Swalot A to S

Furfrou A- to A
Gourgeist-Large A- to A
Meowstic A- to A
Persian A- to A

Marshtomp B+ to A-
Meganium B+ to A-
Wigglytuff B+ to A-

Seaking B to A-

Mienfoo B- to B+
Mightyena B- to B
Solrock B- to B

Corsola C+ to B-
Ditto C+ to B-
Heatmor C+ to B-
Kricketune C+ to B-
Luxray C+ to B-

Banette C to C+
Wormadam-Trash C to C+

Bibarel C- to B-
Dunsparce C- to C

Hypno UR to C
Noctowl UR to C
Phione UR to C+
Pikachu-Belle UR to C
Shedinja UR to C
Slowpoke UR to C-
Sudowoodo UR to C-
Tropius UR to C-
Unfezant UR to C

Drops

Electabuzz S- to A+

Dustox A+ to A
Lairon A+ to A-
Politoed A+ to A

Frogadier A to A-
Magmar A to A-
Vibrava A to A-

Sawsbuck A- to B+
Swoobat A- to B+

Hippopotas B+ to B-
Murkrow B+ to B
Trubbish B+ to B

Butterfree B to B-
Dragonair B to B-
Glaceon B to B-
Lunatone B to B-
Meowstic-F B to B-
Raticate B to C+
Zweilous B to B-

Chimecho B- to C+
Chinchou B- to C
Fearow B- to C+
Gastly B- to C+
Girafarig B- to C+
Lampent B- to C+
Magcargo B- to C+
Slaking B- to C+
Tentacool B- to C+

Emolga C+ to C
Illumise C+ to C
Meditite C+ to C
Munchlax C+ to C-
Palpitoad C+ to C-
Shelgon C+ to C

Ariados C to C-
Magnemite C to C-
Mothim C to C-
Octillery C to C-
Stunky C to C-

Frillish C- to UR
Grotle C- to UR

Notable Changes

• A to S: Swalot has proven to be a metagame staple due to how much offensive and defensive utility it offers. Similarly to Servine, Swalot is incredibly easy to fit and helps drive the metagame. Swalot is one of the main checks to Grass-types, which are everywhere, and can check a lot of key threats such as Scraggy, Pignite, and Electabuzz. Moreover, Swalot threatens a lot thanks to its stats and movepool, and has lots of opportunities to switch in thanks to its typing, bulk, and Sticky Hold. In a nutshell, Swalot can fit on any team.
• S- to A+: The ORAS ZU icon, Electabuzz, is no longer part of the S-ranks. Sad day. Seriously though, Electabuzz has taken a dip because of how popular bulky Grass-types, Dustox, and AV Swalot are. Also, trends like Seaking and Marshtomp give teams some more flexibility against it. The meta has adapted to Electabuzz in ways that made it less dominant. In addition, one can argue that Servine and Swalot are that much better as S-ranks.
• A+ to A: Defog users in ORAS ZU simply don't hold up as well against the metagame nowadays. Rockers like Gigalith and Bronzor have an easy time keeping Stealth Rock up against Dustox. Dustox is also easy to pressure, as even Grass-types like Simisage and Gogoat can tech Rock Slide, and Servine annoys it with its tools. However, Dustox is still a solid Defogger and special wall, and Double Dance sets are really nice at the moment.
• A+ to A-: A lot of the current trends hurt Lairon's viability. Examples include the following: Pignite, bulky SD Mienfoo, Bronzor, PuP Swalot, and Marshtomp. Compared to rockers like Gigalith and Bronzor, Lairon does not offer as good defensive utility and is worse off as a result.
• A+ to A: Politoed's viability has taken a steady dip since last ZUPL because of trends like Servine, Meganium, Seaking, and screens. Moreover, Politoed faces increased competition from Water-types like Huntail, Seaking, and Simipour, so it's slightly tougher to fit nowadays.
• A to A+: Bronzor trended up mainly because of how well it sets Stealth Rock and helps cover threats like Duosion, Gigalith, Klang, and so on incredibly well. Arguably, there's no other rocker that offers the kind of defensive utility Bronzor does.
• A- to A: Meowstic drives screens and screens are incredible. Screens as a style consistently does well in tours and has been a bit of a hot topic around the meta.
• A- to A: Furfrou is arguably the best Normal-type breaker in the tier, and being faster than Simisage and Simipour is crucial. It forces teams to pack Normal-type resists and even then, Furfrou has the tools to overcome many of them (i.e., Iron Tail for Carbink and Toxic for Gourgeist-L and Gigalith).
• A- to A: Gourgeist-Large is arguably better now as a physical wall thanks trends like Furfrou, Persian, and PuP Swalot. Aside from Duosion, nothing wants to switch into Leech Seed and Will-O-Wisp. While Gourgeist-L may seem passive on paper, it has the tools both wall threats and whittle teams down.
• A- to A: Since the Purugly ban, Persian has steadily risen in the metagame. Persian is one of the tier's best revenge killers, and NP sets are quite threatening as well.
• B to A-: Seaking trended up because of its ability to check Electabuzz, Pignite, Gigalith, and so on, and threaten much of the meta. The Protect 3 attacks set caught on and made Seaking shine. With Megahorn and Knock Off, Seaking is able to break down a lot of structures by flipping matchups against typical Water-type checks like Servine and Politoed
• In general, much of the B and C ranks were cleaned up. Feel free to check the original voting sheet for some reasoning.

Ideally, there should be explanations for each change made. I'm too tired to write up explanations for each change, so feel free to ping me or other council members in the ZU Discord with any questions. If we made any errors counting votes or compiling changes, please let us know. Thanks for reading!

 

[5gen]

The ORAS ZU council has decided to set up a vote on Meowstic and Huntail. With the upcoming ORAS Underground tournament, now is an ideal time to vote.

Screens as a playstyle has been at the forefront of ORAS ZU for years now, and Meowstic is the best screen setter by far. In this meta, screens are consistent and highly potent. As seen in official tours like ZUPL, Olympiad, and ORAS Cup, screens are one of easiest styles to use and toughest to prepare for. The central argument against screens is that the ability to stack so many sweepers restricts teams and leads to too many threats to cover.

Huntail is arguably the deadliest setup sweeper in the tier. Huntail's ability to run physical, special, or mixed sets make it highly difficult to answer defensively. Sucker Punch allows Huntail to pick off revenge killers, which makes it difficult to revenge kill. Much of the time, it feels like Huntail can position itself to overcome typical checks (especially on screens).

However, there are arguments to keep Meowstic and/or Huntail in the tier. One may argue that the meta has enough outs vs screens, or that looking at Light Clay may be preferred. Meanwhile, Huntail's low Speed and poor special bulk limit its ability to set up. Another issue Huntail faces is that it often has one chance to sweep in a game, which forces players to position it well. In some games that's easy, but in others Huntail is just another sweeper.

These two Pokemon are the most controversial elements in ORAS ZU. We'd love to hear people's thoughts here or in the ZU Discord.

 

[BaitWiz]

Thoughts on Screens and Huntail in ORAS

I think screens as a whole is overbearing as hell, having to account for every single sweeper is just a nightmare while still keeping every other potential playstyle in mind. Screens doesn't really 'have' to use specific mons, it can pick or choose its sweepers accordingly, which makes it all the more difficult to account for in the builder and dangerous in battle - if it was just having to prepare for Scraggy, Huntail (more on that in a second), Klang, and Swoobat then I think it wouldn't be too bad, but the fact that there's a lot of more niche options screens can use as well really pushes it over the line - simi's slotting in alright, Electabuzz being an ever reliable pivot, Swalot as a bulky setup sweeper, hell I've even seen the likes of Magcargo, Ditto, and Beedrill do well on screens. Having almost a dozen different potential setup sweepers in screens is extremely difficult to account for when they last for a full seven turns, and it gives the screens user a lot more room to maneuver their win conditions around compared to other generations of ZU where Light Clay isn't legal. I could see an argument for both Meowstic and Light Clay being the problem; my preference is towards Meowstic, as the next best setter after Meowstic is probably either the ridiculously frail Swoobat (who is crucially outsped by Persian and gets hit with Knock Off from Choice Scarf users) or mons like Solrock who have their own host of issues. I think a Light Clay ban would be totally valid as well though, and would probably remove screens altogether.

Huntail can seem honest at face value; it has one shot to get off a Shell Smash, and when it does it's going to try to sweep you with Water STABs. Problem is, Huntail's not all that honest in practice. It can run a bevy of different items, from standard stuff like White Herb and Lum Berry to more oddball items like Life Orb and even weird berries like Ganlon or Lansat for one time Natural Gift coverage; furthermore, while you can sometimes judge whether it's physical or special based on its teammates, you never truly know until you're already facing it down fully boosted most of the time. It also really doesn't help that Huntail can often mix its two sets together, opting for mixed variants with Ice Beam splashed into physical sets or Sucker Punch splashed into special ones. I think Huntail is screens' strongest abuser, and without the support of screens it often both has to find the correct time to setup and have the correct set in order to finish the game; a combination of factors that's difficult to find in practice and is reflected accordingly in the usage stats of both of the most recent team tournaments featuring ORAS ZU, ZUPL VI and ZU Olympiad III; Huntail finds itself below a 50% winrate in both of these tournaments. I'd personally be in favor of action on screens over action on Huntail at this time.

 

[sleid]

Results from the recent ORAS ZU ban slate are in! Light Clay is banned with a whopping 80% majority vote, while Huntail just barely reached the threshold to be banned with a 60% majority vote. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to implement this! Thank you!

Here's to ushering a new and healthier era of ORAS ZU. I am excited to build for this new meta and know others are too!

 

[Theycallmephil]

Hello ZU old gens thread.
I hope this is the right thread for this post.

I won gsc slam league alongside the hitmonlees while playing GSC ZU.
As this tier has an obvious issue to address id like to share my thoughts on it.

But before all that im doing a teamdump lol

WEEK ONE vs Missangelic(win),
(Charm lead nidorina)

https://pokepast.es/46bf4b0acbaa9342
To be very clear, this was my first team ever in this tier. It was only made possible due to my extremely helpful team during prep. As it was my first shot its fairly standard. I came up with a checklist of ideas, I needed something that could tank opposing mantine. So I used nidorina who packed a solid combination of instant recovery, decent spatk, thunder, ice beam to ensure my tine check wasn't bullied by onix as seen in the game. I saw most people had chosen their charms to be physical lately, so to be slightly different i opted for a special resttalk set to better handle enemy sleepers. From there I used a 3 attacks mantine and a resttalk aipom, this would be the last time I bring an aipom walled by onix. When presented with the newly dropped ariados I looked immediately at its bulk, opting to create the ideal resttalk set. The attacks I chose were psychic to hit the numerous poisons and to take advantage of its unresisted nature. And sludge bomb to abuse ariados's absurd attack. The last add to the team like usual was my favorite croconaw set, its simple and effective.

WEEK 2 vs Magalice(Loss)
(Grimer lead-Attract mantine)

https://pokepast.es/c645417c6a31c46b
I wanted to take an approach closer to what Maris did week one, opting for a curse grimer lead idea. So the team is built around that. But while just chatting about the tier a sick and twisted idea came to me, mantine can probably afford attract. This mon already has no switch ins and now I can abuse those aswell?
Sign me up. This set performed as cheesy as planned both in game and in tests, im satisfied with it. And as mentioned i was pretty disappointed with aipom being helpless versus onix, so I chose to give my aipom hp water and infact even used thief to hopefully cripple another mon.
I also tried onix for the first time this week although it ended up fairly disappointing.
Other 2 were just resttalk charm again and boring croconaw.

FINALS vs Zause(win)

https://pokepast.es/cdce6cdb55feab5b
I was subbed in mid-way through the week but I locked in immediately. I had my mission and I needed my teams help to build up a squad to win this. Immediately I knew i wanted to use lead aipom and wanted to go back to a less unique mantine. From here we added croconaw as is standard. I finally decided to grow a pair and use a new charmeleon set, using belly drum at bees recommendation. From there we wanted a way around opposing weepinbell, a few ideas were suggested. But ponyta and ariados were my favorites. I went with ariados. And finally bee pointed out this team had some issues with opposing croc, I built 2 versions of the team as a result, this version with weepinbell that I used to great success and another version with koffing
https://pokepast.es/09c67e520f96039b
Seen here.

Now I want to address the obvious issue mentioned at the start of this post.

I think most will agree with me when I say this pokemon desperately needs to be banned, it trades 2 for 1 every game, can abuse cheesy strats, has 0 real switch ins.
This mon absolutely cannot be dropped and centralizes everything around it.

Ultimately I enjoyed this tier but it has its problems.
Just my 2 cents on the tier

 

[BeeOrSomething]

Following the conclusion of GSC Slam League, the GSC ZU council has collectively decided to take a look at Mantine. Mantine has been an absolute powerhouse in the new metagame, simply standing on a pedestal above every other Pokemon with its gargantuan stats, being extremely difficult to take down while 2HKOing or at worst 3HKOing every other Pokemon. Mantine warps the entire metagame around it, and at base 70 speed is quite fast while having a diverse range of moveset options from RestTalk to Agility to Protect to even Attract along with its choice of Hydro Pump or Surf, none of which it can go wrong with. Mantine is not an extremely good defensive Pokemon necessarily; it's primarily an offensive superpower, and it just so happens to have the best bulk stats of basically anything in the tier to make it difficult to force out or take down once it's already on the battlefield. Extremely little checks Mantine, as the only attacks that 2HKO it are Thunder, Explosion, and Togetic's Zap Cannon, all of which are very high risk moves, and Mantine 2HKOes most relevant users of these moves like Aipom, Koffing, and Meowth while still 3HKOing Togetic. Even Hidden Power Electrics can really only 3HKO Mantine, meanwhile it usually OHKOes HP Elec Charmeleon with Hydro Pump, 3HKOes HP Elec or Rock Slide Croconaw, and usually trades positively against an HP Electric Tentacool that has to switch into it. Most Pokemon that would want HP Electric to hit Mantine hard are also usually making themselves much worse against the rest of the metagame to do so. Mantine is simply too good and has too few downsides to ever consider not using in some form on every single team, and every time it will dominate.

For these reasons, GSC ZU council has chosen to vote on Mantine. The threshold is a simple majority at 5/8 votes necessary for a ban.

Votes

Zpice: Ban
BloodAce: Ban
BeeOrSomething: Ban
THE_CHUNGLER: Ban
Aurist: Ban
LustfulLice: Ban
BeatsBlack: Ban
Hitmonstars: Ban

As such, the result is that Mantine is now banned from GSC ZU.

Tagging dhelmise and Marty to implement.

 

[czim]

With my ZUPL run being over, here are some nominations because I feel like the current ADV ZU VR is not reflective of the current metagame

Rises

A+ -> S
Pony is stupidly good and the best mon in the metagame with Mightyena as a close second. It provides so much utility with its high BST, giving it decent bulk, very high speed and good coverage trading well with almost everything not dedicated to checking it. Almost every team should run it, there's very little reason not to.
A -> A+
I know this is getting banned but if not it should rise to A+ because it's nuts, while not as splashable as Pony and Mighty
A- -> A+ (maybe A)
Doduo is the strongest CB normal in the tier and has an absurdly strong Quick Attack, making it very splashable and flexible as a breaker and revenge killer, notably KOing Salac users like Anorith and Beedrill with its Quick Attack, since these mons usually tech for Ponyta's which is much weaker. It also is a great lead, being able to one-shot Clamperl and force out most things slower than it. It is frail though, so it can't be switched into most attacks, which might make it A instead of A+
B+ -> A+
Ariados is a very versatile Pokemon that has found its footing on the meta as a physically defensive pokemon with slow Baton Pass to enable breakers such as Cubone, Meditite and the always obnoxious Clamperl. What puts it in A+ imo is how its other sets can make it a very big threat. The possibility of it running Signal Beam, Giga Drain or Psychic (or even Substitute or Agility) makes it very awkward to switch into and can punish hard if the opponent goes for a midground like Mightyena or Onix to not let a slow breaker in with the possible Baton Pass
B -> A+
Delcatty also found its footing on this metagame as the best special wall around, being able to pick between Heal Bell and Baton Pass as a 4th move depending on the team, giving valuable defensive or tempo support. Hard to justify using anything else over this as a dedicated special wall
A- -> A
Quilava is pretty good, specially with its Sub Toxic set that is able to wear down Ponyta a bit for its teammates. It hits very hard and Blaze STAB can break special walls well like Delcatty
C -> A
Nosepass is a pretty solid defensive pokemon, completely walling Ponyta and Ariados and checking well the CB normals like Doduo and Aipom. It also has access to Thunder Wave and Explosion, making switching in into it hard. Its only flaws are how it falls prey to slow passers due to its passivity and how ground-types such as Cubone and Onix can easily switch in on it without much harm
B- -> A-
Onix is a cool mon, it is a fast normal resist that can explode on common waters and grasses like Clamperl, Seaking or Gloom before they can take it out, but it's quad weakness to HP Grass make the Ponyta matchup awkward, and its low attack makes it a bad breaker when it's not exploding. It is much better than B- though, even if inconsistent
B -> A-
Great breaker and abuses well the best normal resists in the tier, such as Onix and Nosepass. Should be on the same rank as Meditite
B -> A-
Needs support but is a great lead, revenge killer and cleaner. Crucial speed tier that revenges big threats such as Ponyta and Abra
B- -> A-
Lombre is shit, but this is Clamperl meta so it can't be below A- since it is the only thing that switches somewhat comfortably into it.

Drops

A+ -> B
Corsola is so awkward, it's a water-type that doesn't check waters, fires and can't even 1v1 ground types, so it makes team compositions with it feel weird, since it doesnt really check anything bar the normals reliably. With Clamperl and the abundance of HP Grass users in the tier Corsola feels really out of place in the metagame.
A- -> B+
Noctowl is cool and versatile, but it struggles in a meta as fast as this one, since its best sets all involve Toxic stalling, and it is not very strong to break without it, and this tier is very Heal Bell oriented
A- -> B-
Castform is another mon that doesn't do anything particularly well. It's best niche is as some anti-weather mon that spams Thunder Wave but it also doesn't do that very well, and that's not very valuable in a tier where every team has a dedicated Heal Bell user. As a mixed attacker it can be annoying to switch into but that's it i guess. I just can't make it fit on a team tbh

 

[5gen]

I built a lot of SM teams this year. Up until Olympiad, I had been mostly playing SS and ORAS in ZU team tours. After I supported MZ in ZUOL, SM Cup was going on and I figured I could have fun with the unused teams from ZUOL. I built some more for SM Cup too. Then ZU was in SMPL, which was really nice to see and participate in. I opted to slot into SM in ZUPL for the first time in ages (probably since it was cg). Point is I built a lot and want to post some thoughts on the VR/mons.

Summary of Noms

A to A+
XL A to A-
A to A-
A to A-
Silv-Poison A to A-
A- to B+
A- to B+
Dragon A- to A
A- to A
B+ to A-
B+ to A
B+ to B
Ground B+ to A-
B to B+
B to A-
B- to B
Small B- to B
C+ to C
C+ to B-
C+ to C
C to B-

S Rank
Electivire

Hide

There isn't much to say about Evire that everyone doesn't already know. Evire is clearly the best mon in the tier just off the Scarf set imo. However, I used Ebelt a lot and must say it's really good too. In ZUOL we figured HP Grass > Cross Chop was a good idea to pop Golem and Sandslash. Ebelt Evire is somewhat flexible in what it can run alongside Wild Charge and Ice Punch, which makes it pretty fun to build with. For example, EQ > Cross Chop gives Evire room to break Golem, Electrics, and Silv-Poison. Another option is HP Grass like I mentioned, which allows you to drop Ice Punch and keep Flamethrower to really punish those Golem + Wishi + Grass cores (i.e., Leafeon and Gourg).

A Rank

A+
Golem
Leafeon
Rotom-Fan
Simisage
Swanna
Torterra
Wishiwashi

Hide

I don't see anything dropping from A+ except maybe Swanna and Leafeon. Each mon is established and influences the meta greatly. I'll try to keep my thoughts short for each mon.

Golem is the most splashable rocker. It's a top 2 or 3 Evire check and compresses a lot of defensive utility that other rockers simply don't match. Offensive sets are also pretty solid, though you will need to build in ways that pressure Evire (i.e., punish it when Evire clicks EQ or Ice Punch). One thing I started doing on some defensive Golem sets is running Sucker Punch > Protect or Toxic. Sucker on defensive Golem is a nice surprise factor to catch stuff like Kadabra, Simisage, and Swanna. Another trend I saw was Toxic + Protect and mono EQ. I first saw Tene use it last ZUPL, then some other players here and there. I tested it myself and became a fan. Toxic Tect is nice not only to whittle things down, but it also helps Golem recover with Lefties more easily.

Leafeon is still one of the tier's scariest setup sweepers. Leaf also has good defensive utility, which helps it fit well on many structures. For example, Synth on Z-Celebrate allows Leafeon to repeatedly check mons like Golem, Torterra, and Sub Punch Wrath. However, I feel that the meta has adjusted to Leafeon more compared to last ZUPL and ZUOL. I find that it's easier to prep for Leafeon in this meta because Leafeon's natural checks are good, namely Fantom, Grimer-A, and Silv-Poison. I still rate it as an A+ mon, but just not as strongly as the others. As for different sets, I built a team around SD Grassium 3 atks Leafeon vs afo. Unfortunately the team missed and I overlooked the Gourg-XL matchup. The idea was +2 Z-Leaf Blade is a nuke and Knock + Return let it punch through Bronzor, Bouff, and Fantom.

To me, prepping for Rotom-S now feels like prepping for Evire. What I mean is what used to be a lure set, offensive Defog or Wisp + Hidden Power Water or Ground, is now a legit set one has to consider. One has to think twice staying in with Golem, let alone switching it into Fantom because it can drop to HP Water. Silv-Ground, Sandslash, and Evire risk getting Wisped or chipped down, so blocking Fantom's Volt is tricky. Defensively, Fantom is as good as ever, maybe even trending up because of how good Grasses are.

Simisage is perhaps the scariest mon to prep for on paper because of the amount of sets it can run. NP can run 3-4 sets that are all good. Accounting for standard NP, Synth + Z-Leaf Storm, NP Z-Hyper Beam, and NP with Grassium Z Leaf Storm + Focus Blast is super difficult. Add standard AOA or Synth 3 atks to that list and checking Simisage feels almost impossible. Most of the time I rely on stacking a check or multiple soft checks + enough speed control. It helps that many of these sets have overlapping checks like Silv-Poison, Grimer-A, and Silv-Dragon (kinda). Offensively, I think there's enough counterplay to give teams a good pool to pick from.

Remember when some people thought Swanna was broken? The calls to suspect Swanna seemed like a vocal minority to me, and nowadays I don't see that feeling anymore. If anything, Swanna has trended down since last ZUPL. People have learned to better prep for Swanna. Swanna also needs to be primed for a sweep, which makes Z-MM and Z-RD sets not as easy to pull off. Since Swanna relies on those Z moves so heavily, it can feel hit or miss some games. As in, if it doesn't secure that one chance to sweep, it often doesn't perform like an A+ mon should. It doesn't help that walls like Wishiwashi, Bronzor, and Dusclops are better now imo.

Tort is one of my fav mons to use. I wrote about SD sets in this post so I'll keep things short. SD sets are what make Tort an A+ mon. Tort doesn't need all that much defensive investment to check what it needs to. Offensive sets check Grounds, Evire, and some other attackers well enough. I end up not using SpD Tort most of the time SD sets check the mons I want Tort to check. SpD SR is still a solid set, but I find myself wanting the breaking power of SD or using the occasional RP or CB set instead.

Wishiwashi. Not much to say here about the standard set. Rest-Talk Wishi is the best SpD pivot in the meta imo, and all its usage and role compression shows why its that good. I've been liking offensive variants. Aside from AV, I messed around with aoa + resist berry. For example, Wacan + EQ is a cool lure to catch Raichu, and EQ pops Grimer-A and Mareanie. Rindo + Ice Beam is a nice emergency check vs Leafeon and Simisage.

A
Beheeyem
Bouffalant
Bronzor
Gourgeist-Super
Grimer-Alola
Komala
Poliwrath
Silvally-Poison
Simipour

Hide

Beheeyem is a mon I really like using. I messed around with it a lot during SMPL and some during ZUPL. HP Ground is p nice on Specs to catch Grimer-A. Modest NP 3 atks is another set I tried, with HP Ground + Signal Beam to flip the matchup vs Grimer-A and Silv-Dark. The defensive CM set is quite solid too. All in all, I think Beheyeem is fine where it's at. While offensive Beh is easy to pressure, it obliterates slower builds or at least claims 1-2 kills against teams without good Psychic resists. Def Beh is also deceptively bulky, which makes it a good setup mon and tank.

I'm super high on Bouff. In SMPL, I thought Bouff was a top 5 mon, partly because I was exploring Cotton Guard sets heavily. CG sets can solo some teams, and I tried fast Bouff with Sub/SD/CG/Head Charge to be able to set up on Golem, Tort, Leafeon, and so on. Another move change I began to adopt was Head Charge > Return. Using Head Charge allows Bouff to trade better vs offensive mons and allows you to drop some Atk to fit defensive benchmarks (i.e., enough SpD to live +2 Simisear Fire Blast, always live def Fantom's Volt Switch with Sub, tank +2 BB from Swanna, etc). While I don't think Bouff is necessarily top 5 anymore, I think it's right there because it can do so much and trade incredibly well vs faster threats. Moreover, can flip the matchup on just about anything other than Dusclops and Sub CM Drifblim, which makes it p threatening and fun to build with.

Bronzor is Bronzor. I think Pursuit, Knock, and natural threats are too common to raise Bronzor to A+. However, I started to use Bronzor a lot more because like Golem, Bronzor is a rocker that compresses a lot of defensive utility in one slot. Moreover, Tect > Rest makes Bronzor an easier fit on faster-paced teams. I also explored some wild EQ > SR set for stall that I wish I brought vs afo because it would've come clutch (I considered stalling but used smth else sadly).

I'm on the fence on whether Gourgeist-XL should stay in A or drop to A-. I'm leaning A- because while fitting Gourg-XL benefits from trends like SD Tort and Sub Punch Wrath, Gourg-XL is threatened by many common mons like NP Sage, Fantom, and Silv-Poison. Building with Gourg-XL is also somewhat challenging in that Gourg-XL it is somewhat passive and crippled by status. The need to run Seed Bomb > Leech Seed to beat Sub Punch Wrath makes Gourg-XL more passive too. Without Leech Seed, you have to hope Gourg-XL matches up into mons it walls like Furf, Leafeon, Crustle, and so on. Also to be frank, I find Gourg-S easier to fit a lot of the time due to it checking most of the same mons.

I thought Grimer-A rising to A was overrating it. I don't see Grimer-A on the level of the A-rank mons because I find its niche is too limited. If Grimer-A doesn't face a Psychic, a lot of its niche is gone because Pursuit is way less valuable. I also think Grimer-A's bulk leaves a lot to be desired. I find that Grimer-A is pretty easy to overwhelm, and if it does invest in bulk over attack, Grimer-A needs Poison Touch activation to carry it most of the time. However, I do assume I'm lower on Grimer-A than a lot of SM players. Knock + Poison Touch is super annoying to switch into, and Grimer-A does have a valuable niche and defensive typing. For example, it's one of the few things that check Simisage/Grasses and Psychics in one slot.

Komala is fine where it's at. CB is still a menace, but isn't too easy to build with because CB doesn't have many entry points and instead needs pivots with it. Bulk Up and support sets like Spin + U-turn or Knock + U-turn are solid, though not as potent as CB imo. Scarf and AV are more niche and fit on the right structures, so I don't see them as affecting Komala's rank that much.

Sub Punch Wrath still does its thing. I like using special tank and defensive sets because Sub Punch sets don't make use of Wrath's defensive utility as much. All in all, Sub Punch Wrath is one of those sets you have to prep for.

I'm a bit on the fence about Silv-Poison. It has a very good niche as a Defogger + Sage check. However, Bolt Beam only gets it so far. Most of the time it feels like poisonvally chips at things and soft checks what it needs to until it dies. Moreover, Silv-Poison is easy to wear down, which means offensive Grasses can overwhelm it. It also doesn't have good matchups into most hazard setters, which hurts its role as a Defogger. In a nutshell, I think Silv-Poison's niche is more suited for A- than A.

Simipour just isn't a consistent enough attacker to be A. The meta has too many popular natural checks to Simipour like Wishi, Wrath, Scarf Evire, CB Furf, Kadabra, and so. Simipour usually has to run HP Electric or Grass Knot over Taunt, which makes it more difficult for Simipour to break fat teams.

A-
Altaria
Cacturne
Combusken
Crustle
Furfrou
Kadabra
Kecleon
Mawile
Mr. Mime
Rapidash
Sandslash
Silvally-Dragon
Simisear
Toucannon

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Writing for each mon is getting tiresome so I'll try to be concise.

Good mon that is kind of passive and exploitable, so I see it dropping to B+. Alt is in a somewhat awkward position in this meta because a lot sits on it. I've also been liking Defog Silv-Dragon more than Alt.

Stomping Tantrum > Spikes or Superpower is nice to pop poisons and the occasional Pawn or Busken.

I'm kind of high on Busken because it's a p scary mon to face. Mareanie trending down helps, though Clops trending up hurts Busken's viablity.

I don't think much has changed for Crustle. I built with it more often because it was a natural fit alongside SR SD Tort or Bronzor. Normal check + good physical bulk make it a potent setup sweeper. Hazard sets are nice too. I had fun with Spikes + Smash.

Teams are better prepped for Furf these days due to Dusclops, Mawile, and Crustle. Furf is still scary for teams that rely on Golem to check Normals cuz Gknot smashes it.

Kadabra doesn't like how popular Wishi is, which is a shame cuz Sash and LO are two good sets. I messed around a bit with Knock as the 4th on Sash sets to give Kadabra some more utility (i.e., vs Bronzor, SpD Normals).

Kecleon is really nice in this meta if you can fit it. Kec is a nice option into offense and pulls its weight vs balance and bulkier builds. Main issue is low speed and physical bulk. Tpunch > Fake Out is a cool option to lure bulky waters.

Really nice rocker if you limit your expectations and build accordingly. When I build with Mawile, it's p much to check certain physical attackers, punish U-turn w/ Helmet, and provide Knock and/or Taunt support. LO sets are good.

I really tried to make Mr. Mime during ZUOL. I tried different sets on a range of structures. I didn't build or test Specs or Z-Encore, so my opinion on Mime could be skewed. However, I think all of Mime's sets run into the same issues. The issues are base 90 Speed, poor bulk, and slightly underwhelming power. Wishi is a safe check to Mime and makes it way easier to keep in check. Moreover, the meta is built around Scarf Evire and outspeeding Swanna, so the byproducts of that like Furf, Gourg-S, Simis, Rap, etc all make Mime worse.

Coming from SS back to SM, Rap not having SD is very noticeable. Because of that, I tested CB Rap a fair bit and am a fan. Although many teams pack Golem + Wishi or Sub Punch Wrath, CB Rap can power through checks with the right prediction. For reference, Low Kick does 54.9% min to Golem and Blitz does 32.9-39% to Wishi. Both of these checks are easy to overwhelm with partners. Also, this set is a menace vs offense or teams that rely on Swanna, Sub Punch Wrath, and/or Silv-Dragon as fire resists. CB Rap does need good hazard removal though. The standard Z move and Lefties sets are still good. I also tried Passho Berry as an emergency check to Swanna (vs Tack in ZUPL and it didn't come into play). Defensively, Rap is still nice as it's one of the few offensive Grass checks with recovery.

Slash is like Mawile for me in that it does its roles and generally won't be needed for more. I find Slash easy to fit on a lot of teams. That is probably lazy team building from me; however, blocking Evire + removing hazards is a huge plus for me.

First off, s/o to Greybaum for opening my eyes to Sub SD Silv-Dragon. Seeing that set inspired me to use Dragonvally a lot more and to explore different sets. SD sets are what push Silv-Dragon to A because they are that good at finding chances to set up and sweep. Sub SD is one of the ultimate reverse sweep mons in the tier. Dragonvally can even tech Iron Head > Sub to lure Granbull and Mime. As for other sets, SD Rest Talk Multi is great at breaking fat teams and trading vs balance (as long as there are no Fairies). I've also come around to SpD Defog with Toxic or SD in the 4th slot. SpD Silv-Dragon helps patch up weaknesses vs Wishi, Sage, Z-RD Swanna, Raichu, and Fantom mainly. It won't counter these mons on its own, but it is a good pivot into them.

Fine where it's at. I could see Simisear dropping because of trends like Wishi and the focus on outspeeding Simisage, but Simisear has the tools to work around its checks. Bloom Doom is a good set to break through Waters, whereas the traditional Taunt + NP set breaks stall (which is somewhat popular). Moreover, Gluttony + Salac showed up in SMPL and I gotta say that's p annoying to account for. Salac adds another fold and makes Simisear more threatening vs offense.

I feel Touc should rise to A because it pressures current structures very well. For example, Touc rips through common defensive cores like Golem + Wishi + Silv-Poison and Tort + Zor. Touc has like 4 viable sets (SD, Z-TW, Scarf, mixed) and then Terracotta had to go use SD Flame Charge. Since it has that many sets it can run, Touc can set up Tailwind or bluff Scarf vs faster mons. Not knowing whether Touc is Scarf or about to set TW on a switch adds an annoying degree of uncertainty when playing around Touc. Moreover, SD and aoa sets have very few switch-ins, so it feels very difficult to account for Touc when using slower teams.

B Rank

B+
Chatot
Dusclops
Floatzel
Lapras
Mareanie
Muk
Pawniard
Purugly
Raichu
Servine
Silvally-Dark
Silvally-Fighting
Silvally-Ground
Silvally-Water
Trevenant

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Chatot is sneaky good to me because it can put in work even if it can't set up. At 309, Chatot fails to outspeed Evire and up, which leaves it weak to a lot of common attackers. However, 309 Speed is faster than Fantom and any mid speed breakers, which is key. Chatot threatens enough mons with Boomburst to where it's a solid early or mid-game breaker. I also think DD sets are p scary and that Chatot is a good cleaner due to how good it is at forcing switches.

Dusclops should move to A. This is the hottest take yet. To me, Dusclops is slept on. Clops has many matchups where it walls at least four mons, and even has some autowin matchups because teams overlook having ways around it. Its weakness to Knock may be big, but between Silvs and Z moves, most teams pack at least two Knock absorbers. I find Dusclops very easy to support as a result. Moreover, while Clops is passive, its ability to wall teams anyway helps make up for its passivity. With Wisp, Clops shuts down many physical attackers, so it has outs vs stuff like Leafeon, Crustle, or even Grimer-A that'd normally scare Clops out. All in all I think Dusclops is one of the best walls in the tier.

Floatzel doesn't like how popular Wishi and Wrath are. Float is threatened by a lot and has mediocre power, so it tends to struggle to break through teams or clean. When running Floatzel, one has to bank on running into offense or not facing Wishi. I just think Float is in a poor spot.

Raichu is better than B+. The Air Balloon set (first saw it from Greybaum) allows Raichu to punish Evire. Raichu is a special breaker that beats the common special walls in Wishi, Licky, and Tort (not as much though), and its Speed is great. I tested LO Gknot + Signal Beam with NP to make Raichu more immediately threatening vs Sage, Leafeon, Golem, etc.

I see Silv-Ground on the same level of Sandslash, except it can actually check Fantom by running enough Speed + Ice Beam.

Offensive Silv-Water is the set I like most. It has enough defensive utility and good enough offenses to threaten stuff. AOA Watervally isn't breaking through walls. Its job is to pick apart balance, trade when it needs to, and provide pivot support. Greybaum brought a cool SD Flame Charge Explosion set vs me in SMPL semis. I can see that set catching on cuz it's a nice anti-offense mon and lures Wishi and other bulky Waters. I'm on the fence on raising Watervally to A-, so yeah.

All of these mons should stay in B+ imo. Lap is p nice into the common structures nowadays, but isn't easy to build with because it's not super strong or fast and is rocks weak. I think Mareanie is kind of slept on, though it's often overshadowed by Wishi as the designated bulky water. It doesn't help Mare that the meta pressures it p well. Muk is cool mostly due to lure sets like special aoa + Infestation and Sub sets. Curse is alright too but often too passive and easy to wall. Pawn is pretty nice. I started using less Speed and more HP like in SS, which helps vs some things like Psychics and Normals. Purugly is good fwiw (solid revenge killer, Knock + U-turn, & Defog deterent). Servine is p solid. It's a good option for Defog because of its utility and freeing up the silv spot. I started running Adamant and more bulk on some Silv-Darks to have some more utility (kind of inspired by Terra). Good option to trap things better. I also like Sub SD. I could see Silv-Fighting drop to B, but I find it offers enough utility as a Dark and Normal check. Offensive sets are nice too cuz Fighting is one of the only formes that can pull off aoa mixed. Trev is Trev, super annoying to face and has solid defensive utility.

B
Avalugg
Duosion
Electrode
Fraxure
Golduck
Granbull
Lickilicky
Marowak
Rampardos
Pinsir
Pyukumuku
Silvally
Silvally-Electric

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Stall always gets some usage in team tours. I'm undecided on whether stall as a playstyle is better than B because while the tier has many ways to break stall, I feel the style is somewhat underexplored. To me, Licky + Pyuku are the only must haves for stall. Stall can fit more than Grimer-A, Avalugg, Hippo, Alt, Clops, and Ditto. I messed around with stall and wish I brought it more than once. Pokemon like Bronzor, Vullaby, Silv-Poison, Silv-Dark, Silv-Elec, Tort, Golem, and Vibrava are what I experimented with on stall. Also, Licky and Pyuku aren't tied down to stall, so I could see those two rising and Avalugg staying in B. I messed around with a Lefties Taunt Pyuku set and it never saw a tour game (maybe if I asked for bo3s I'd have put these ideas into play).

Screens are legit and better than the stuff in B. Electrode is the best setter so it should rise to reflect Screens' viability. While SM has plenty of Defog and ways to check setup sweepers, Screens teams have a lot of variety. Sub SD Silv-Dragon or Dark are musts on Screens to me because they're so potent and Silvs are crazy bulky under screens. From there, Screens teams can lean in different directions. NP Sage, NP Raichu, CM Swoobat, SS Huntail, SD Busken, SD Bibs, SD Touc, and the list goes on. You can opt for variants that stall break very well, go more anti-offense, build in ways that play around Ditto, and/or add an extra support option like Custap Memento Muk or Glare Servine.

I used to think Pinsir fell off. Its current B rank shows that council felt the same. However, during SMPL I tested Z-MF once again and found that it's more threatening than what we gave it credit for. Pinsir's checks like Fantom, Golem, Silv-Poison, Mawile, and Alt are easy to wear down. Moreover, Z-MF Pinsir benefits from trends like less Mareanie usage, more offensive Fantom usage, and Sub Punch Wrath. It benefits because Fantom and Wrath opt for offensive sets, which make it easier to position Z-MF Pinsir for sweeps (i.e., easier to get offensive Fantom into Stone Edge range than 252 HP sets). Lastly, Pinsir has good setup opportunities in this meta. It can set up on Leafeon, Evire, Simisage, Tort, etc and fitting good removal around it, even double removal, is easy.

B-
Armaldo
Bellossom
Camerupt
Ditto
Dugtrio
Drifblim
Glaceon
Gourgeist-Small
Hippopotas
Huntail
Sawsbuck
Shuckle
Swoobat
Vigoroth

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Rain is legit and Armaldo is one of the top sweepers there. I think it should be next to Golduck (even though I think Golduck is a slightly better rain sweeper).

Gourg-S is a nice support option/glue for teams that need a Normal and Ground check, and an out vs Leafeon, Swanna, and Wrath. I find Gourg-S naturally fits on structures that want that extra Normal check and still have something fast. Sub Seed is solid. I mostly tried Synth + Toxic or Wisp + Seed Bomb + Foul Play or Scarf Trick.

I'm undecided on raising Huntail to B. I need to test it more. I think it could be B rank because it's a cool sweeper with decent upside. Huntail can run Darkinium or White Herb, either to pop Wishi/Bronzor in one slot or have a partner hold the Z. Huntail has enough setup opportunities thanks to its typing + Water Veil, allowing it to set up on stuff like Wishi, Golem, and Rap. All that being said, Huntail does lack Speed and +2 Sucker isn't super strong without LO.

C Rank

C+
Arbok
Basculin
Beartic
Bibarel
Cradily
Ninjask
Quilladin
Volbeat

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Arbok just doesn't have the stats nor setup opportunities to be that scary most of the time. Arbok is smth you usually have to go out of your way to use. Moreover, Mare isn't as common as it used to be imo, which means Tspikes aren't as common anymore. I'm just not a fan of Arbok. Too much has to go right for it to be worth using. Maybe CB has merit but I haven't tested that.

I've been a fan of LO Basc since ORAS PU. In my mind it's a B- mon mostly because of how good it feels on hazard stack, but idt I can make a good argument for it to rise. It really doesn't like meta trends rn. However, I still like using it.

Scariest mon in the tier, s/o apa. For real though SD Bibs is good enough on Screens to be B-. It's definitely on par with the B- mons.

Quill is something I can see rising to B- as more people explore it. Its defensive profile is solid b/c it can run mixed bulk to check stuff like Sage, Wrath, and Tort, and has good support options in Taunt and Roar. I haven't tested Quill enough to argue for a rise rn.

I hate to do it cuz I like Cradily. It should drop to C. I think Cradily has way too many obstacles in this meta to be worth using most of the time. I see it on the same level as Corsola. Main issues with Cradily are passiveness and it can't keep rocks up vs most removers. Giga Drain + Toxic or Earth Power leaves Cradily open to way too much. Also, it's a Normal check weak to U-turn and a Water check that Wishi chunks with U-turn and Wrath smacks with Focus Punch or Ice Punch.

C
Corsola
Golem-Alola
Jumpluff
Machoke
Monferno
Natu
Probopass
Shiinotic
Smeargle
Stunfisk
Vibrava
Vullaby
Zebstrika

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What a shame that Pluff is in C with these shitmons. Pluff should be B- because it's that good. Seriously though, SD/Sap/Acro/Bullet Seed is the sauce. Pluff outspeeds most attackers, has the typing to check and set up on a lot, and its stabs are surprisingly good. Here is a replay from SMPL vs Greybaum that shows what I mean. I chickened out and didn't attack Wishi, but if I clicked Bullet Seed, Wishi could've died and Pluff could come in at any point later. Basically, Pluff punishes common structures, especially ones that rely on Sash Kadabra for speed control.

I could see these rising to C+ because they seem better than the C mons. I'm not sold on them completely though. Fisk is better now imo because it counters Fantom and lures Grasses, and Machoke is a decent tank when it fits.

C-
Carbink
Chimecho
Hakamo-o
Lycanroc-Midnight
Meowstic-M
Metang
Misdreavus
Oricorio-Baille
Raticate
Relicanth
Solrock
Zweilous

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I don't have much to say here. Chime is intriguing and doesn't work most of the time. Lycan is sad. Meow-M could rise just off Screens, but Trode or Swoobat are better most of the time from my experience (yes setter Swoobat works). I could argue for Missy to rise. I won't though b/c realistically there's not really a difference between C- and C. Ori-Baille should be UR. Z-MF Rat is cool (s/o ayevon) and probs C or C+, I haven't tested it enough. Z-MF is a great mechanic and Hustle + SD pair nicely with it.

Not formal noms (don't feel like compiling replays). Each of these is on the 5gen VR. CM + Agility Noctowl is a cool niche sweeper b/c it has the bulk to stay in on Sage, Tort, Silvs, etc unlike Chatot (not saying it's better than Chatot). Silv-Grass should be C+ or B- cuz it soft checks Sage, Waters, and Grasses, and is a Silv that reliably defogs on Golem + Tort. Pau is a niche sweeper on Screens. I messed around with WP Agility CM and it's cool. If Carbink is ranked, Dusknoir should be too. Aside from TR, I toyed around with 252 HP / 252 Spe Timid with Taunt and Wisp or Wisp Hex to act as a disruptor. Set is designed to annoy all the 190 - 200 speed mons and creepers, check Normals, and pressure walls and slow set up mons.