Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread - (update on post #1193))

[Avira]

I nominate Toxicroak from UR to C or C+. Some players such as JackRG and Pinkacross have been using it with varying degrees of success, and in the video I've linked below, Pinkacross reached 2000+ on ladder during OLT with a rain balance featuring a defensive Toxicroak with Toxic, Drain, Punch, Encore, and Knock Off/Gunk Shot that greatly increased the consistency of rain by using Toxicroak to check Ogerpon-Wellspring. Aside from handling Wellspring, the Toxicroak walls Samurott-Hisui, Lokix, Araquanid, and Amoonguss and checks Zamazenta, Kingambit, Darkrai, Garganacl, Alomomola, Lokix, Keldeo, Ogerpon, Ogerpon-Cornerstone, Rillaboom, and Greninja, which shows it's something worth ranking rather than some mons who made the D-rank in the past that has now been eliminated and that it should be above C- rank mons given how extremely limited the niches of the mons in C- are. Poison/Fighting is actually a pretty decent defensive typing complemented very well by Dry Skin's Water-type immunity, and Encore also makes set-up sweepers think twice about setting up, which can help you outplay them in the long run.

 

[Moyashi]

It’s late and I’m off to bed but first

A- -> A
This Mon is leagues above everything in A- and is firmly entrenched in the metagame at this point without any doubts left. It’s proven to be consistent and effective with a surprising amount of depth to its game, whether functioning with Calm Mind or acting as a potent disruptive force with sets like Rocky Helmet + Pain Split, AV or even typical leftovers. It’s one of the best sources of immediate anti rocks support thanks to how well it shuts down so many rockers, enabling a number of rock weak pokemon to potentially run other items, and it soft checking a number of dangerous threats from some Deoxys-S to Zamazenta lacking Heavy Slam, Iron Valiant, and probably more I’m forgetting. It’s great.

A -> A+
This could also realistically rise and I think it should. Court Change is really powerful support for relieving hazard pressure but also shutting down cheese from screens and webs, and Cinderace itself being a great pivot and generally is thriving at this point. I don’t have as much to say here other than it does what it’s done for a while but I think it’s really hitting its stride right now.

A+ -> A
Still very good but people are better prepared. Think right now it’s better fit in A.

A -> A-
Kind of a weird Mon right now. It’s not as defensively useful as it could be and feels frustrating to build with at times since teams prepared can kind of sit on it and make progress hard to obtain. Booster sets feel too hit or miss and other sets not named specs can struggle into teams with good Grounds that aren’t Ting-Lu. Other wall breakers feel easier to use either for being faster or having more defensive utility and stab types suited to threaten common cores. Pretty threatening on sun but that’s one specific playstyle which isn’t super common.

A- -> B+
I know people have tried experimenting with this Mon to try and breath some life into it but it feels underwhelming overall. Losing due to not getting a boost from FD sucks, and it’s fairly easy contained by common good team building habits so it tends to not be very threatening. Can obviously do stuff into some teams but feels like a very fishy threat atm.

B+ -> B/B-
This Mon barely exists and anything I hear people say about just tends to be very in theory or on paper. In practice it’s a passive momentum sink that gets pressured too easily by repeated hits, and it’s so awkward to use outside stall or very very specific fat teams. And those specific fat teams don’t even seem to do well right now. Doesn’t really check things better than more splashable mons, and just feels very out of place next to niche but solidly viable pokemon like Scizor, Lokix, Heatran, Tinkaton, Ceruledge… who all have benefits they bring to teams that actually come into play in practice much more consistently. Dondozo is long overdue for a drop.

 

[Magcargo]

-> A+
I have no idea why this dropped to B+. Big Regen is everywhere rn and Weavile is one of the best publishers to it, deleting Torn-t / Hydrapple with Axel and Slowking-G with Knock. It really only struggles against Mola / G-Weezing, which is an annoyance, but even there its knock still helps pressure against these Pokemon. Just look at the entire S- and A+ Rank and the only reliable switch in to this Pokemon is Zamazenta (which still doesn't like getting its item Knocked off). And of course, in addition to its valuable Ice STAB, Ice Shard is also strong utility to have rn against Scarf Land-T / Enamorus (which is getting more common from what I've seen) as well as other tricky threats like Raging Bolt, while also chunking a solid amount from miscellaneous other threats like Deo-S and Darkrai.

-> A+
Another mon that is underranked. This mon walls 90% of the special metagame while bringing any threat of its choosing for free near gaurenteed. Most of its counterplay gets easily messed up by its various techs, whether it be Trick + Black Sludge, one of either Ice Beam or Flamethrower, or even just clicking the safe Chilly and pivoting out into the appropriate swap. Chilly is a godsend in many MUs, particularly against weather, which can be tricky to deal with otherwise. Its also endlessly versatile, with so many options / utility it can provide to a given comp. So many utility moves between Psychic Noise, Trick, T-Wave / Toxic, Trick + Black Sludge etc. on its standard sets, with other moves like Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and Psyshock giving it flexibility against Treads, Gambit, Gholdengo, Gliscor, and Lando-T depending on what it picks.

 

[Whaloob]

It’s late and I’m off to bed but first

A- -> A
This Mon is leagues above everything in A- and is firmly entrenched in the metagame at this point without any doubts left. It’s proven to be consistent and effective with a surprising amount of depth to its game, whether functioning with Calm Mind or acting as a potent disruptive force with sets like Rocky Helmet + Pain Split, AV or even typical leftovers. It’s one of the best sources of immediate anti rocks support thanks to how well it shuts down so many rockers, enabling a number of rock weak pokemon to potentially run other items, and it soft checking a number of dangerous threats from some Deoxys-S to Zamazenta lacking Heavy Slam, Iron Valiant, and probably more I’m forgetting. It’s great.

A -> A+
This could also realistically rise and I think it should. Court Change is really powerful support for relieving hazard pressure but also shutting down cheese from screens and webs, and Cinderace itself being a great pivot and generally is thriving at this point. I don’t have as much to say here other than it does what it’s done for a while but I think it’s really hitting its stride right now.

A+ -> A
Still very good but people are better prepared. Think right now it’s better fit in A.

A -> A-
Kind of a weird Mon right now. It’s not as defensively useful as it could be and feels frustrating to build with at times since teams prepared can kind of sit on it and make progress hard to obtain. Booster sets feel too hit or miss and other sets not named specs can struggle into teams with good Grounds that aren’t Ting-Lu. Other wall breakers feel easier to use either for being faster or having more defensive utility and stab types suited to threaten common cores. Pretty threatening on sun but that’s one specific playstyle which isn’t super common.

A- -> B+
I know people have tried experimenting with this Mon to try and breath some life into it but it feels underwhelming overall. Losing due to not getting a boost from FD sucks, and it’s fairly easy contained by common good team building habits so it tends to not be very threatening. Can obviously do stuff into some teams but feels like a very fishy threat atm.

B+ -> B/B-
This Mon barely exists and anything I hear people say about just tends to be very in theory or on paper. In practice it’s a passive momentum sink that gets pressured too easily by repeated hits, and it’s so awkward to use outside stall or very very specific fat teams. And those specific fat teams don’t even seem to do well right now. Doesn’t really check things better than more splashable mons, and just feels very out of place next to niche but solidly viable pokemon like Scizor, Lokix, Heatran, Tinkaton, Ceruledge… who all have benefits they bring to teams that actually come into play in practice much more consistently. Dondozo is long overdue for a drop.

I agree with the exception of Raging Bolt and Iron Moth. They don’t need to rise, but they shouldn’t drop either. Their biggest progress blocker in Ting Lu has no recovery which facilitates special spam offensive structures that aim to wear it and Gking down with one or two special attackers to clear the way for another to sweep or facilitate easy cleanup. While Lu’s whirlwind is a pain for the setup/single use items of every special spam mon, on such structures your odds of getting another mon Lu would want to stay in on, but that it can no longer withstand, are high. Moth and Bolt are prime choices for this.

Moth’s strength on special spam is a mix of its astonishing base 140 spatk and its snowball potential with Fiery Dance. Most often it kneecaps its own spatk effectively to base 125 to run speed booster, which is a mistake imo. It renders moth a better cleaner but only insofar as you can actually successfully preserve your speed booster till late game. Specs, booster spatk, and boots are all just better even before considering utility movepool options like whirlwind, toxic, tspikes, agility/flame charge, morning sun, and uturn. Hell, it’s only a matter of time before some intrepid builder runs tera ghost fire spin + acid spray/toxic or some shit (except for some reason ppl are addicted to booster speed or bust bc they want to instalose to ting lu whirlwind). Sun specs overheat in particular carries mindblowing power, with tera fire 2HKOing Blissey 43.8% of the time (guaranteed vs lefties Blissey if rocks are up) and Ting Lu guaranteed, while virtually everything else is OHKO’d or 2HKO’d even without tera (Gking for example is a roll to OHKO). Quad resist WALKING WAKE is 2HKO’d 87.5% of the time (70.9% factoring accuracy) by tera fire overheat after rocks. Even without sun, I do find tera fire overheat quite useful on booster spatk sets as a way to either compensate for missed fiery dance boosts or cash in existing ones to obliterate something. Also of note is that it is one of two things to truly blank Geezing (the other being Heatran).

Raging Bolt trades breaking power for incredible defensive value in the current meta. While special spam is far from the only structure we see lately, it appreciates both being on such a structure (so as to assist in overwhelming its checks) and being against such a structure (so as to encounter a limited supply of opposing mons that can take it down after a calm mind or two). Lefties CM sets are my personal favorite, especially under gterrain either from your own Rilla or an opposing one, but honestly I don’t have any innovations to recommend here, I just don’t think Raging Bolt is given the credit it deserves for being able to blow up even teams that look well-prepared for it on paper.

 

[Moyashi]

I agree with the exception of Raging Bolt and Iron Moth. They don’t need to rise, but they shouldn’t drop either. Their biggest progress blocker in Ting Lu has no recovery which facilitates special spam offensive structures that aim to wear it and Gking down with one or two special attackers to clear the way for another to sweep or facilitate easy cleanup. While Lu’s whirlwind is a pain for the setup/single use items of every special spam mon, on such structures your odds of getting another mon Lu would want to stay in on, but that it can no longer withstand, are high. Moth and Bolt are prime choices for this.

Moth’s strength on special spam is a mix of its astonishing base 140 spatk and its snowball potential with Fiery Dance. Most often it kneecaps its own spatk effectively to base 125 to run speed booster, which is a mistake imo. It renders moth a better cleaner but only insofar as you can actually successfully preserve your speed booster till late game. Specs, booster spatk, and boots are all just better even before considering utility movepool options like whirlwind, toxic, tspikes, agility/flame charge, morning sun, and uturn. Hell, it’s only a matter of time before some intrepid builder runs tera ghost fire spin + acid spray/toxic or some shit (except for some reason ppl are addicted to booster speed or bust bc they want to instalose to ting lu whirlwind). Sun specs overheat in particular carries mindblowing power, with tera fire 2HKOing Blissey 43.8% of the time (guaranteed vs lefties Blissey if rocks are up) and Ting Lu guaranteed, while virtually everything else is OHKO’d or 2HKO’d even without tera (Gking for example is a roll to OHKO). Quad resist WALKING WAKE is 2HKO’d 87.5% of the time (70.9% factoring accuracy) by tera fire overheat after rocks. Even without sun, I do find tera fire overheat quite useful on booster spatk sets as a way to either compensate for missed fiery dance boosts or cash in existing ones to obliterate something. Also of note is that it is one of two things to truly blank Geezing (the other being Heatran).

Raging Bolt trades breaking power for incredible defensive value in the current meta. While special spam is far from the only structure we see lately, it appreciates both being on such a structure (so as to assist in overwhelming its checks) and being against such a structure (so as to encounter a limited supply of opposing mons that can take it down after a calm mind or two). Lefties CM sets are my personal favorite, especially under gterrain either from your own Rilla or an opposing one, but honestly I don’t have any innovations to recommend here, I just don’t think Raging Bolt is given the credit it deserves for being able to blow up even teams that look well-prepared for it on paper.

Lu is their biggest progress road block but far from the only one and is far from their only issue.

What you talk about with Moth are very on paper potential ideas but as of now, simply have not been demonstrated to have effectiveness at high level play (or been used). As far as I can tell from combing the weekly replays of SCL, Moth has been brought 4 times only and lost every single time. That simply isn’t reflecting of a Mon in A- ranks. It’s inconsistent and underperforming as it is right now and we shouldn’t keep a Mon ranked based on hypothetical ideas. It misrepresents how it is in reality at that moment.

As for Bolt, you describe it supposedly having incredible defensive value which I stated the opposite in my post so I’m interested to hear just what supposed defensive utility it has. Leftovers sets may have slightly better longevity when switching into hits, but only slightly and if hazards are up if doesn’t make a big difference. Leftovers sets also lack as big of instant threat which makes it easier for even less bulky grounds to pivot around. Bolt has been used a little more and has won some games in SCL but like I said, most notable wins were on sun which is a specific playstyle.

 

[Whaloob]

Lu is their biggest progress road block but far from the only one and is far from their only issue.

What you talk about with Moth are very on paper potential ideas but as of now, simply have not been demonstrated to have effectiveness at high level play (or been used). As far as I can tell from combing the weekly replays of SCL, Moth has been brought 4 times only and lost every single time. That simply isn’t reflecting of a Mon in A- ranks. It’s inconsistent and underperforming as it is right now and we shouldn’t keep a Mon ranked based on hypothetical ideas. It misrepresents how it is in reality at that moment.

As for Bolt, you describe it supposedly having incredible defensive value which I stated the opposite in my post so I’m interested to hear just what supposed defensive utility it has. Leftovers sets may have slightly better longevity when switching into hits, but only slightly and if hazards are up if doesn’t make a big difference. Leftovers sets also lack as big of instant threat which makes it easier for even less bulky grounds to pivot around. Bolt has been used a little more and has won some games in SCL but like I said, most notable wins were on sun which is a specific playstyle.

Moth not being brought often is kinda the result of players defaulting to the booster speed set or just not using it at all instead of trying a different set, which isn’t a knock on tournament players or me suggesting moth is secretly OP and I’m the only one to know it, there are just a ton of good mons that require less energy to build around effectively either due to familiarity or just being better mons. That said, both specs and especially booster spatk are established sets that have seen high level usage, as has tspikes and whirlwind. To say these are just “on-paper developments” is not really accurate.

Bolt’s defensive utility is in checking Torn-T, Zapdos, Moltres, Woger, Crown, etc while becoming extremely bulky on the special side if allowed to set up calm minds. Lefties Bolt is not generally trying to switch into hits better either, but rather to facilitate setting up and becoming a monster. In particular, many special spam structures often have Woger or Rilla as their only proper physical breakers, which Bolt can handle 1v1. And, of course, its revenge kill potential with tclap facilitates Bolt forcing out a number of otherwise potentially lethal threats that might otherwise just run you over; it’s only a slight exaggeration, for example, to say that Bolt is the sole reason scarf Enam runs tera ground instead of stellar with tblast. I just don’t think your claim that it’s not particularly defensively useful holds water.

Mind you, I’m more than happy to agree to disagree on this one. It’s not like this is a different in morality it’s just mons lol

 

[Kadiro]

My thoughts
-> A it has proven itself to not be that good in practice.
Being a versatile wall breaker can only get you so far (especially with wellspring doing that thing well)
-> A-/A being a reliable wellspring check + letting some Pokemon be broken sweepers + extremely powerful priority to sweep = Better than B or even B+
-> A+ the fact that is better most times doesn't mean this pokemon isn't great when it's used.

I dont agree with any of these noms.
Kyurem fells better than ever actually, subs sets are demonic and scarf is trending right now. If there is a mon i would suspect test atm it would be kyurem, it destroys balance too badly and one wrong guess with the set and it might be over.
While i love Rillaboom and its true that its back in the meta i think calling it for A is a bit too much. The birds and pech are still too relevant and rilla needs more support to be an independent pokemon like anything in the A ranking. Its definetly worthy of a B+ and we could debate about A- since it is such a great teamplayer, but i dont think rilla is top 20 or so right now.
Treads is right where it belongs. A great support mon with many good match ups but stuffed by some of the best mons in the meta like tusk, woger and zama. Its a great pokemon but not reliable enough for it to be A+ imo.

Also, I nominate to A-. Max defense sets have proven to be amazing against so many of the psysical metagame. It walls zama lacking ice fang and woger lacking play rough, switches into ting- lu and garg for ever and threatens in return with stabs+ep only resisted by enam and corv.

 

[mcribs]

Agree with hydrapple being nominated but I also want to add another one

-->A-
With Heatran's recent rise into OU i think it def deserves a nomination to A-. Theres the obvious reason of being a rocker that beats corv, gweezing, and hatt, while also letting stuff like tusk run something over rocks like cc or bu. Super great. But it also brings solid defensive and offensive traits. Modest sets are still incredibly strong and with magma storm becomes an excellent wall breaker with air balloon being nice to have a safer switch into kyurem and dragonite. Bold and calm variants are great at tanking hits and setting rocks. Lava plume is great on these sets to fish for burns. Flash fire i think is prob the best rn on offensive and spdef sets but flame body is great on phys def. theres still issues like being horrible at checking kyu and magma storm being magma storm but it def deserves to be ranked higher

-->A
Samu has def taken a hit with the rise of gweezing but there has been way more meta advancements that shut down gweezing. Ghold and heatran are the more notable cases of being able to still mess with gweezing and maintaining the hazards. Samu itself can also just knock the gweezing and wear it down over time with razor shell def drops and spikes dmg. AV is def the best rn with its defensive properties but scarf boots and helmet are still just as good. There's also mixed variants floating around with surf which I haven't used yet but they seem fun too. It has the added perk of bypassing hatterene's magic bounce and threatening a ohko on ace if it wants to court change or just stack more spikes. Ceaseless edge is ceaseless edge

-->A-

Rilla has def seen a rise in usage. before I would prob say its meh overall but the new sets have def made a change. SD lorb is incredibly strong and can muscle with checks like zapdos and do heavy dmg with knock off onto pech and ghold. Boots is also very good at keeping its longevity and being a team player with the gterrain. AV and Band are also alright too. I will say that it can def fall flat in front of some stuff without a boost, since grass stab is pretty meh into some top tier stuff, but it can def still put in work with knock and uturn. also is ok at checking wellspring

 

[ausma]

Just making a quick nom because it’s on my mind and I’m surprised there isn’t more discussion on it:

A- to A+

Hatterene’s results as of late have been nothing short of stellar. The recent Pain Split innovation has been certainly quite good, making it last for an annoying amount of time and really maximizing Magic Bounce’s utility into Great Tusk compositions. However, its set variety and powerful, immutable disruptive tools in Nuzzle, Magic Bounce, and Psychic Noise, and access to Healing Wish make it an absurdly useful glue for comps that need to have hazard control and to have progress stick, but also can’t easily afford to fold momentum. Hatterene is really noteworthy because it never has to waste time removing hazards and instead operates as a consistent threat with a solid catch-all defensive profile that is able to help reliably maintain the function of hazard weak offenses that have recently been doing great by themselves. Even outside of its standard Eject Button and recent Pain Split shenanigans, AV is really hard to kill, and Calm Mind sets are a disgusting win condition that can also provide innate defensive utility to the offenses you see it on. Magic Bounce has always kept Hatterene present in the metagame but I believe its set options and ability to always exert pressure one way or another makes it very worthy of A+, especially with it breaking top 10 in usage.

Some other quick thoughts I have:

A to A+
Has felt like a legitimate, real sidegrade to Great Tusk as of recent, especially when it runs Knock Off. It has excellent, underrated tank sets that make it very functional on fatter teams, alongside being able to operate as a nice glue for more aggressive offenses, similar to Hatterene.

A- to A
I’ve vocalized this before but Hisuian Samurott being considered bad is honestly because I don’t think people are really considering how they can maximize the value of Ceaseless Edge. If you run sets and spreads that are more prone to having Spikes removed, then like… yeah? Of course it won’t feel that good. Genuinely run bulky AV and bulky Helmet + Encore/Swords Dance.

Also please don’t drop Kyurem.

 

[Cheryl.]

A- to B+

Iron Moth's current ranking feels a bit too generous for a mon that very rarely gets its amazing matchups anymore. Even when the Moth started getting exposed against bulkier structures continually flailing into fat mons like Glowking and Ting-Lu, it always had some amazing offense matchups to back up its presence on teams. Playstyles like Webs, Screens, and Sun used to be TERRIFIED of Moth, but recent meta developments have made those matchups not as easy for Moth as in the past. Webs both uses Araquanid more often than Ribombee, but is also not as common as it once was which actually hurts Iron Moth's standing as it is one of Web's best abusers with Booster SpA. Other HO styles like Screens often resort to Ceruledge as their go-to offensive Fire which often pushes Moth out of a spot on those teams and also means Moth actually has a decent check on those teams (barring Tera Blast Ground which is a big commitment). Same goes for some Sun teams using Ceruledge. I'd also like to shout out Heatran which is yet another new bulky mon that takes on most Iron Moth sets with ease and has been gradually rising up to prominence in the meta, further limiting Iron Moth's potential of getting any good matchups. Obviously the mon still has some serious perks as a TSpikes absorber for offense that naturally forces out a lot of the meta with Booster Speed (or has potential to actually break with Booster SpA + Fiery Dance luck), but with how naturally prepared every playstyle is for Moth, A- does not reflect how inconsistent the mon has become at this point.

 

[1LDK]

Hey, it's me


from A --> B+

This mon is hilariously overrated, unlike corviknight, this mon has an actual niche, torn-t destroys fat balance, great! And that's it. Regenerator means nothing on a gen where offense is king. Its matchup vs the offensive meta is straight up dogshit, unless you use tera ground tera blast, raging bolt, gholdengo, valiant just vaporize you, oger-w can just pop down tera and trait, darkrai ice beams you. weavile, zama and pult all outspeed. And the worst part is, it's not reliable because most of his moves can and will miss. I have lost a good amount of tour games just because I missed a bleakwind. A- and above need to have some level of consistency, or little consistency but mad high payoffs, and torn-t does not have that high amount of payoffs, specially because the meta is becoming more and more offensive with rilla grassy terrain offense, sure you can kill the setter, but not really the people that rilla is helping. Your strongest moves are unstab unboostable knock off and u-turn which tbh is a nice luxury sure, but you don't really need it in this gen, it really is not a high valuable because you can just kill the thing in front of you, and torn-t cant do that. Torn-T has a specific niche, let him there, if you want something to vaporize fat balance, use him. Not more, not less

don't even get me started on AV in sv ou this shit is so ass :wilted flower: :broken heart:

from B+ ----> B

does anybody still use this? This thing is kinda ass, Kyurem is popular, Torn-T is popular, Ace and Oger-W can just U-turn, and this mon does NOT check rillaboom at all. And dnite is using tblast flying which vaporizes him.

from B ----> B-

Everything in B has been used to better success than meow, outspeeding Torn-t is nice in theory but are not really doing anything with it in practice

from A ----> C-

other list of things

Agree with the nomination to A+
Disagree with the nomination to A+: it's a good support mon, but it's not really winning games by itself or the support it brings, and sd sets are underexplored. So keep it there
Keep in A+

A- to A
I’ve vocalized this before but Hisuian Samurott being considered bad is honestly because I don’t think people are really considering how they can maximize the value of Ceaseless Edge.

Hard disagree because you can't maximize anything if the move misses. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for using wide lens, but I'm the minority here, this mon lives and dies by ceaselessmaxing, and if you can't land the move, it quickly just fumbles. Also, this mon hates rilla being used again. Keep it there


Before I go

from UR ----> C

Because C, stands for CINEMA

 

[JackRG]

unlike corviknight, this mon has an actual niche

from A ----> C-

So completely shutting down most variants of dnite, tusk, gambit, gliscor, hrott, non-taunt lando, as well as soft checking many others and providing pivoting with U-turn isn't a niche lmao? Honestly the only question is why this isn't higher lol

 

[658Greninja]

Hey, it's me


from A --> B+

This mon is hilariously overrated, unlike corviknight, this mon has an actual niche, torn-t destroys fat balance, great! And that's it. Regenerator means nothing on a gen where offense is king. Its matchup vs the offensive meta is straight up dogshit, unless you use tera ground tera blast, raging bolt, gholdengo, valiant just vaporize you, oger-w can just pop down tera and trait, darkrai ice beams you. weavile, zama and pult all outspeed. And the worst part is, it's not reliable because most of his moves can and will miss. I have lost a good amount of tour games just because I missed a bleakwind. A- and above need to have some level of consistency, or little consistency but mad high payoffs, and torn-t does not have that high amount of payoffs, specially because the meta is becoming more and more offensive with rilla grassy terrain offense, sure you can kill the setter, but not really the people that rilla is helping. Your strongest moves are unstab unboostable knock off and u-turn which tbh is a nice luxury sure, but you don't really need it in this gen, it really is not a high valuable because you can just kill the thing in front of you, and torn-t cant do that. Torn-T has a specific niche, let him there, if you want something to vaporize fat balance, use him. Not more, not less

don't even get me started on AV in sv ou this shit is so ass :wilted flower: :broken heart:

Gonna argue against this cause I would go as far as saying Torn warrants a rise if anything. Its honestly cracked atm rn.

Calling Torn just a Fat/Stall killer, while true, is reductive and Torn’s niche goes beyond that, hence why it rose to OU recently, especially with AV which I heavily disagree is its worst set.

You claim its offensive matchup is garbage, but from experience, the AV set has a noticeably good matchup into many offensive staples. Because AV Torn is so difficult to OHKO, you can use it to trade Knock or damage vs the likes of Gholdengo, Primarina, Valiant, Moth, Darkrai, Deo, and Pult. It even comfortably eats a Freeze Dry/Ice Beam from Kyurem and can Knock + U-Turn out. It does have some difficult MUs into Raging Bolt, Glimm, and Zapdos, but it can Knock Boots off the later, while Glimm is usually only around during the early game.

I haven’t even mentioned Nasty Plot which is basically Darkrai + Hydrapple in one Pokemon. With Hatt surging into top 10 in usage and more exploration of other hazard control options compared to previously, keeping rocks away from Torn hasn’t been easier. Its synergy with Kyurem should also be mentioned, because most of what threatens AV Torn, Kyurem handles.

Torn doesn’t really mind the offensive direction OU has been going since OLT, because it pushes away the SD Gliscor fats that AV Torn struggles with. AV Torn just so happens to fit fine on BO structures, especially the Hatt + Kyu ones. As effective at destroying Balance as Taunt Boots Torn was, it suffered from not being able to check anything, making it tough to slap onto teams.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

Hello, here with an update to VR team and the future slate going forward

We have some recent leaves from the VR council of Leng Loi, Ewin, and kd458.
However we have some new additions to the VR council: 3d , Stareal , zS , Separation , Typhlosion48 , and Let's Rumble Shall We

We think these additions will allow for more accurate future Viability Rankings and a big thanks to all of them for joining! The next VR slate will be towards the end of SCL, so now would be a good time to get opinions out for the VR if you have any. That's all I've got for today~

 

[mcribs]

--> A-

right now has a very solid niche with the rise of and more and . Mold Breaker allows it to bypass as well as be able to twave or . Pickpocket is nice though to punish u-turn from and knock off. Gigaton hammer is still pretty strong against something like a or . Def deserve a look to A-

--> B+/A-

the fallen titan has been used more and more on sand teams or even non sand teams, as its defensive traits are incredible as a blanket check to most special attackers, while its access to Knock lets it have something over . With less incentive of using , you can use a lot better teammates such as and . Boots and CB are very strong and can threaten a lot of mons with the progress it exerts. B+ def right now

 

[Estradiol5mg]

(i dont feel like getting the pngs for this so just bear with me)

Glimmora -> A-

Meteor Beam sets have proven to be quite fruitful along with its excellent coverage into kyurem along with torn, zapdos, molt, and enam. addtionally glimmora also happens to have 2 incredibly good abilities, a amazing utility moveset it only lacks in bulk and a poor matchup into treads and tusk but earth power and energy ball can assist with that along with rilla for grassy terrain support,

Sammurot-H -> B+ while this mon still has a amazing moveset and a formidable typing along with priority with the ability to do significant damage into ground type mons with razor shell, its 2 main problems are 1 poor coverage and 2 its while not bad speed tier it would much appreciate a few more points to get past the coveted 300 total, while samurot can hit hard its priority which it would like to use against the likes of tusk is not sharpness bosted and it lacks a safe pivoting option into teams with wogerpon. av can patch some holes in some teams its simply lacking against wogerpon and kyurem. Sammurot does though have a excelent matchup into the ever stronger hat along with tinkaton

 

[Finchinator]

A+ to A — It’s just not taking up a big enough piece of the pie chart among Ground types to warrant A+.

Landorus-T is flimsy into Zamazenta, Excadrill, Rillaboom, and other staple or trendy physical attackers while being exploited by the combinations of pivots and Kyurem or Ogeron-Wellspring, which is some archetype’s bread-and-butter. This isn’t to mention Iron Treads is still practical, Ting Lu is as good as ever, and other Ground types like utility Garchomp on BO or Excadrill on Sand continue to eat into Landorus-T’s possible uses. I do not think much fundamentally changed about Landorus-T and we even see more people using Choice Scarf variants, but it feels way more A than A+.

A- to A — Just clearly a tier too low right now. Hatterene is approaching staple status as a top tier hazard control Pokemon.

Hatterene is more common in tournaments and practical on various archetypes than other A- Pokemon. RH Pain Split utility Hatterene changed the game while other variants like AV or CM, especially with Terrain, hold their own and Eject on weather is still timelessly viable. I think Hatterene is a top 15-20 Pokemon right now, so if A and up consists of the top 25 Pokemon (although imo it should be closer to 22), then Hatterene should comfortably have a seat at the table.

B to A- or A — Rillaboom has just seen a lot more usage and become a much more practical option since early August.

Grassy Terrain is the big one here, supporting a ton of Pokemon while giving Rillaboom revenge killing powers. SD sets with Tera Blast or LO Knock/HH can be cool, but the utility is what makes Rillaboom way better than your average B rank Pokemon. Think the body of work recently speaks for itself from there.

B to B+ or A-

Just feels like Latios went from fringe or niche to being at least somewhat respected and used. Obviously this is not the biggest shift, but there’s enough to distinguish it from currently mediocre company.

I think Choice Scarf Latios is really good into offense while we have finally begun to see it used more. It’s not the best Pokemon and still has some things it is walled by/has to Trick into, but there’s merit there. In addition, non-choiced variants prove disruptive for balance while still being hard for offense to swap into — they just have way more opportunities to outrun it then. I would describe Latios as limited, but plenty viable.

B to B+ or A- & B to B+ or A- — Sand is just a lot more common than it was before. Just think reflecting that it’s important.

I don’t think it’s the best archetype or the most consistent, but it disrupts certain offenses and VR should reflect it being more relevant than a few months back. Tyranitar has utility sets and more breaker focused variants like Choice Band, which we are seeing a decent amount of. Drill is pretty much the same old SD STABs with Spin or the infrequent use of Tera Blast and Leftovers or Air Balloon.

B to B+
B- to B+
B- to B

Three lower ranked Pokemon that have made splashes recently. Ogerpon seen more on balance and BO as a tempo controller with options to break while Moltres-G starred on HO across OLT and Blaziken functioned as a speed boosting nuke cleaner/trader on a few offenses. None define the metagame, but all deserve a bump up.

Maybe A+ to S-? Not sure you can say it’s THAT MUCH less viable than Ogerpon-Wellspring or Great Tusk to the point that you would rather group it with Gliscor, Dragapult, etc…I need to think this one through probably,

Zamazenta / Dragonite / Ting Lu / Kingambit (can argue Lu or Gambit S-)
Wellspring / Tusk / maybe Kyurem
maybe Kyurem / Gliscor / Deoxys-Speed / Darkrai / Dragapult / maybe Iron Valiant / argument for a few current A Pokemon to rise up

Honestly looking at this roughly, the difference between where I see Kyurem and where I see the A+ Pokemon is kinda bigger than I would like it, but I still have it below the other S- Pokemon, so it’s probably up to preference from there.

 

[658Greninja]

A+ to A — It’s just not taking up a big enough piece of the pie chart among Ground types to warrant A+.

Landorus-T is flimsy into Zamazenta, Excadrill, Rillaboom, and other staple or trendy physical attackers while being exploited by the combinations of pivots and Kyurem or Ogeron-Wellspring, which is some archetype’s bread-and-butter. This isn’t to mention Iron Treads is still practical, Ting Lu is as good as ever, and other Ground types like utility Garchomp on BO or Excadrill on Sand continue to eat into Landorus-T’s possible uses. I do not think much fundamentally changed about Landorus-T and we even see more people using Choice Scarf variants, but it feels way more A than A+.

A- to A — Just clearly a tier too low right now. Hatterene is approaching staple status as a top tier hazard control Pokemon.

Hatterene is more common in tournaments and practical on various archetypes than other A- Pokemon. RH Pain Split utility Hatterene changed the game while other variants like AV or CM, especially with Terrain, hold their own and Eject on weather is still timelessly viable. I think Hatterene is a top 15-20 Pokemon right now, so if A and up consists of the top 25 Pokemon (although imo it should be closer to 22), then Hatterene should comfortably have a seat at the table.

B to A- or A — Rillaboom has just seen a lot more usage and become a much more practical option since early August.

Grassy Terrain is the big one here, supporting a ton of Pokemon while giving Rillaboom revenge killing powers. SD sets with Tera Blast or LO Knock/HH can be cool, but the utility is what makes Rillaboom way better than your average B rank Pokemon. Think the body of work recently speaks for itself from there.

B to B+ or A-

Just feels like Latios went from fringe or niche to being at least somewhat respected and used. Obviously this is not the biggest shift, but there’s enough to distinguish it from currently mediocre company.

I think Choice Scarf Latios is really good into offense while we have finally begun to see it used more. It’s not the best Pokemon and still has some things it is walled by/has to Trick into, but there’s merit there. In addition, non-choiced variants prove disruptive for balance while still being hard for offense to swap into — they just have way more opportunities to outrun it then. I would describe Latios as limited, but plenty viable.

B to B+ or A- & B to B+ or A- — Sand is just a lot more common than it was before. Just think reflecting that it’s important.

I don’t think it’s the best archetype or the most consistent, but it disrupts certain offenses and VR should reflect it being more relevant than a few months back. Tyranitar has utility sets and more breaker focused variants like Choice Band, which we are seeing a decent amount of. Drill is pretty much the same old SD STABs with Spin or the infrequent use of Tera Blast and Leftovers or Air Balloon.

B to B+
B- to B+
B- to B

Three lower ranked Pokemon that have made splashes recently. Ogerpon seen more on balance and BO as a tempo controller with options to break while Moltres-G starred on HO across OLT and Blaziken functioned as a speed boosting nuke cleaner/trader on a few offenses. None define the metagame, but all deserve a bump up.

Maybe A+ to S-? Not sure you can say it’s THAT MUCH less viable than Ogerpon-Wellspring or Great Tusk to the point that you would rather group it with Gliscor, Dragapult, etc…I need to think this one through probably,

Zamazenta / Dragonite / Ting Lu / Kingambit (can argue Lu or Gambit S-)
Wellspring / Tusk / maybe Kyurem
maybe Kyurem / Gliscor / Deoxys-Speed / Darkrai / Dragapult / maybe Iron Valiant / argument for a few current A Pokemon to rise up

Honestly looking at this roughly, the difference between where I see Kyurem and where I see the A+ Pokemon is kinda bigger than I would like it, but I still have it below the other S- Pokemon, so it’s probably up to preference from there.

Agree with most of these except Goltres, Latios, and Kyu, but the one I want to discuss is Kyurem and why I think its not S- material.


I do see the argument. Kyurem’s set variety and sheer breaking potential is unmatched by most of the OU roster. This has only been exacerbated by multi-hazard control structures to enable it and in recent memory, AV and Scarf sets adding on to the pile of options Kyurem has.

But Kyurem has a couple flaws that keep it out of the S ranks for me.


The S ranks are defined by Pokemon who fulfill multiple crucial niches in the tier, offensive and defensive. Think about Zamazenta’s role as a wincon, physical wall, Dark resist, and speed control, or Gholdengo’s role as an offensive/defensive glue with the invaluable Steel type (also an amazing Scarfer that disrupts defensive teams with Trick). Wellspring didn’t rise to S- until its vast utility-pool and impressive defensive profile as a Ground resist/Water immune was fully-recognized. Kyurem has one role (albeit a role it performs incredibly well) and its to break. Its defensive typing, especially vs hazard stack is terrible, so in spite of its amazing bulk, Kyurem could not fulfill a defensive role very well. The Water resistance is greatly appreciated, but looking at the offensive Waters in OU, most of them target its weaknesses via their STABs/coverage (Wake, Primarina, P-Rough Wellspring) or boast Knock Off to cripple Kyurem (Samu, Wellspring).

Kyurem is also very support reliant. This is a trait none of the S ranks carry because often they are the support, the glue that holds the team together. Kyurem is potent, but it needs rocks up at all costs. Sometimes just one spinner/defogger isn’t enough, you need to have Hatt or Cinder alongside it. Since Kyurem doesn’t provide much in the way of defensive utility, you have to bank on defensive pivots that can take the hit for it and bring it in safely. This limits the structures Kyurem can fit on. Splashability is a crucial factor to being an S/S- rank mon. Ghold, Wogre, Tusk, Dnite, etc, have seen play on many different BO/Balance/Offense structures which justifies their ranking.

Though Kyurem is one of the scariest and controversial mons in the metagame, it doesn’t make it S rank worthy imo.

 

[Whaloob]

B to B+ or A- & B to B+ or A- — Sand is just a lot more common than it was before. Just think reflecting that it’s important.

I don’t think it’s the best archetype or the most consistent, but it disrupts certain offenses and VR should reflect it being more relevant than a few months back. Tyranitar has utility sets and more breaker focused variants like Choice Band, which we are seeing a decent amount of. Drill is pretty much the same old SD STABs with Spin or the infrequent use of Tera Blast and Leftovers or Air Balloon.

I agree with a rise for sand for sure, and this may imply a rise for Excadrill as well, but I don’t think Ttar and Exca need to stay in lockstep anymore the way they used to. While Exca relies on sand (and thus Ttar, with Hippo being extremely fringe) to perform and to compete with Treads/Tusk as a spinner, Ttar’s greater viability as of late comes from the realization that Ttar and sandstorm are themselves very good even without abusers, evidenced by the success of xav sand and the general de-emphasis of Exca as a wincon for sand teams in exchange for greater emphasis on Ttar’s own contributions. In the most recent stats dump, the top Elo bracket is using smooth rock just 24% of the time, with boots, band, and lefties filling in most of the gaps; band and boots with offensive spreads especially have risen greatly in recent months.

It’s not hard to see what Ttar has to offer:

It boasts the 4th strongest knock off available in all of SV (3rd after omitting Ubers’ Roaring Moon, and only otherwise behind Crawdaunt and Hoopa-U), and no common knock absorber shrugs off everything it can bring as coverage, even on a single set. Banded stone edge 2HKOs all 3 members of the holy trinity of knock absorbers in Clef, Scor, and Corv, and banded knock threatens to 2HKO Scor and Corv outright if rocks are up, even factoring the protect turn in Scor’s case.

Sand is incredibly valuable chip in a metagame where Dragonite’s multiscale is a defining force, and where sturdier offensive players like Hatt, Ace, Kyurem, Wellspring, Zap, Molt, Zama, and Raging Bolt run rampant while losing a lot of their longevity to sand. Zap, Molt, Dnite, and Corv in particular are 4 extremely relevant roadblocks to offense structures that Ttar contributes heavily to softening up, allowing for the other 5 to be greedier.

Despite its spread of weaknesses, even offensive Ttar EV spreads can still take hits well enough on the special side, especially considering the damage Ttar tends to do in return. In the 1v1 it mulches Kyurem, Gambit, specs Pult, Ghold without focus blast/metal coat, and Enam, for example.

All this to say, I might support Ttar at B+ while Exca stays at B, or even Ttar A-/Exca B+ if trends continue, but I don’t think the two ought to remain in the same tier.

 

[RandoPokeLover]

It's been a while since I played SV OU, why are Dragonite and Ting-Lu so high and why did gambit fall? IIRC Valiant rose a little too, as well as many of the S- mons.

 

[mcribs]

--> keep B or lower to B-

Chomp is a neat guy but quite frankly its getting more and more niche. Ofc competition from really sucks as a double hazard setter and bulky ground, but theres an even bigger increase in double removal with and either or , with helmet being increasingly more common on the former two, making the chip niche much more limited. They are both competition and a decent check to the hazard stacking loves.Sd is also bad btw. Theres a reason tankchomp is used more. On teams that really dont care about their mu you could prob use this guy like with , but its incredibly limited to those teams

 

[ArcadianSkies]

It's been a while since I played SV OU, why are Dragonite and Ting-Lu so high and why did gambit fall? IIRC Valiant rose a little too, as well as many of the S- mons.

Dragonite has, by and large, risen to fill the gap left by other tera-abusing sweepers like Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire, as they've been banned. With generally great stats for a setup sweeper, strong prio in Espeed, and a solid pool of more utility-focused options like Encore and Roost, it has now cemented its place as one of the premier offensive pieces in the tier. Tera affords it great set variety, and it makes great use of tera blast to plug any gaps in the coverage of its team, and break through checks that might otherwise beat it.

Ting-Lu just doesn't fucking die, and it makes this fact the rest of the tier's problem.
In all seriousness, Ting-Lu just does what it always does, stacks spikes and rocks, chips shit down with Ruination, and shuffles the deck with Whirlwind. Its frankly absurd defensive profile gives it all the wiggle room it needs to defensively stop what it needs to, whilst still pulling the aforementioned above bullshit, and it makes great use of tera defensively, to flip the script on the pool of checks that might stand a chance of taking it out.
I think that, when you have Hisuian Samurott, a Mon who has a move that literally deposits a layer of spikes every time it connects, and it's still arguably only the second-best spiker in the tier, behind Ting-Lu, this is completely telling of how strong and consistent it is.
In short, Ting-Lu does its thing, and does it consistently really fucking well(and, in my opinion, lack of access to active recovery like Recover, Slack Off, Shore up etc. is pretty much the only thing stifling a legitimate case for looking into taking action on this Mon)

Gambit's viability has dipped slightly in recent times, since the meta has just adapted to its presence. It has become second-nature while building in this gen, to include at least some form of Gambit countermeasure on a given team, which is a fitting testament to its influence within the tier.

 

[soupeater]

It's been a while since I played SV OU, why are Dragonite and Ting-Lu so high and why did gambit fall? IIRC Valiant rose a little too, as well as many of the S- mons.

ArcadianSkies mentioned most of it, but I think part of the the reason why Ting-Lu has risen so much is that the banning of Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire means that although there are still a solid amount of setup sweepers in the tier, it's a lot easier to answer those setup sweepers with defensive answers rather than just revenge killing them or putting pressure on them to prevent them from setting up. Dragonite taking the place of Roaring Moon as the number 1 DDance user helps with this, since it has an amazing matchup into offensive mons but requires more work to break through walls. Phazing is pretty widely used, and although Moltres and Zamazenta are decent phazers, Ting Lu is a really effective whirlwind user since its hazard stacking also lets it rack up chip damage every time it clicks whirlwhind.
This is also a minor part of why Gambit has fallen. The main reason is just that people have gotten better at building teams that don't get 6-0'd by 5 fallen allies Kingambit with tera, but Gambit has always had some additional utility as a priority revenge killer. With the slower paced meta, that niche just isn't as useful

 

[cat111ca]

A- -> A
A- -> B
A- -> A
B+ -> A-
B -> A-
B -> A-
A- -> B
A -> A+
A+ -> A
B+ -> A
I'll explain when I'll have the time

 

[Estradiol5mg]

A- -> A
A- -> B
A- -> A
B+ -> A-
B -> A-
B -> A-
A- -> B
A -> A+
A+ -> A
B+ -> A
I'll explain when I'll have the time

weevile to a is absolutely insane alo, scizor, heatran and wogerpon's prevalence, tho it is a good knocker and has ice coverage a lot of the time tho i dont see why i wouldnt just have a samurot or a scizor instead, i dont think deoxys should drop seeing recent screens innovation in scl and olt, iron moth is generally significantly easier to fit onto screens and ho cores than anything below b+, also where is the clef hate coming from its such a nice utility mon into sand, heatran, garg, and a bunch of other mons, also hat to s- change my mind