Metagame RU Metagame Discussion Thread [October 2025 Shifts! Gyarados and Volcanion Quickbanned, Mamoswine Banned] [#27]

[Guidorealmsmc]

Not a bad pokemon, and it will get better with gapdos leaving since scarf sets now have a good niche. Ladder (and LBN) likes to uh, use lycanrock a lot to keep it family friendly and dismiss terrakion. But some day terrak will get properly appreciated.

You need to try out this terrakion set.
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Quick Attack


I've been using this set on the ladder and it has done a lot better performance wise than I would expect. Life orb is crucial for boosting quick attacks weak power and provides a significant boost to your damage output to allow it to break fat stuff. It helps a ton vs key stuff like Hippowdon. If hippo switches in to spikes twice, then it cant stomach close combat.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 325-383 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 286-337 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Here are a couple of replays of it in action.



https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2452483678
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2452532093
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2450474037

 

[feen]

Votes are in:

As a result, Gyarados and Volcanion are now quickbanned from RU!
Pinging dhelmise and Marty to implement the changes, thank you!

Mamoswine suspect will be up sometime tomorrow!
E: Mamoswine's banned

 

[Heatranator]

Holy fuck this was a big ban slate, frankly put, this meta is going to shift and most likely going to be awesome. Lets go over some winners and losers.

Winners


The first three are just generally bulky waters, as they all get a massive buff from Volcanion+Gyarados leaving, as they otherwise gave bulky waters massive trouble. Suicune may potentially be broken, but we shall see in due time. All the feraligatr copers can now finally stop, as with gyara leaving its biggest competition is gone, now DD sets can properly spread their flippers? hands? whatever the fuck feraligatr has. Armarouge loses solid checks in volcanion and gyarados, so thats good. Registeel and talon lose pokemon that could switch in pretty easily, so they will be used more. Talon especially with gapdos also leaving allowing defogging to be a bit more free.

Losers


The first three lose to due volcanion leaving. Noivern and cyclizar are a lot less needed on teams to help take on volcanion, and while gastrodon does benefit from no longer having an incredibly free switchin for gyarados, volcanion leaving means storm drain sets will prob completely fall off. Still has sticky hold sets, so its not unviable or anything, but a big chunk of its reason for use just left. Slowbro technically is a sidegrade, but still does lose a bit. Gyarados was a big thing that slowbro took on, though volc was a pain and foul play isn't as needed, so slowbro can experiment more. Muk alola prob gets better with bulkier playstyles getting better, but it could take on volcanion decently well. Physical defense umbreon still can check mamo (though maybe not for long since it might get banned), but it did lose a big target in gyarados.

 

[N_Mareanie]

quickbanning two pokemon that have been here for months after just 1 singular day of shifts is ridiculous lmao can never take lower tiers seriously

 

[Stories]

quickbanning two pokemon that have been here for months after just 1 singular day of shifts is ridiculous lmao can never take lower tiers seriously

did anything in the tier actually change from shifts besides losing one of the better offensive checks to Gyarados?

 

[LBN]

quickbanning two pokemon that have been here for months after just 1 singular day of shifts is ridiculous lmao can never take lower tiers seriously

Gonna bounce off this discussional purposes since I think it's an interesting point. Note this is written before work so this isn't gonna be some professional "council response", this is from LBN the user here, giving my reasoning for my votes rather than some unanimous takes across council.

Gyarados has been getting glared at for awhile, since Yanmega left in fact, and since then it's been glared at numerous times while the banning of pompom and mence only killed some teammates, while pompom was kinda a check itself. Restochesto, sub dd, tera dark, taunt tera blast fairy, it's list of sets to punk specific pokemon was silly and its best check ended up becoming just "send in gapdos and snipe it down" because things like inner focus unbreom can't hang with tera fairy. Other stuff existed like foul play slowbro but 1) this move ONLY existed for gyarados cope and 2) you kinda want your slowbro doing other stuff to handle the orher monsters it's holding back. So when you take that scarf gapdos option away, what we have left is comical food scraps and trash like foul play scarf krookodile. Gyarados was a suspect target even with gapdos here and without? It's just broken straight up.

As for volcanion, this thing has been a scourge for over a year now doing the exact same shit. Steam eruption flame tb-fairy taunt is a set that can legit just 1v1 the entire tier besides trash like Blissey or max max sludge bomb gastrodons which is a horrific waste of gastrodons because you REALLY want that physical bulk. Noivern cannot hang, bike never could hang. Lunar dance cress / hwish rachi topups to volcanion is one of this tiers premier geneva violaters and has been for a very long time. Bans like Mence and now restochesto gyarados above means this mon who already 1v1d everything is now down 2 more checks very quickly. Another dumb thing volcanion could rock with is a custap berry set which just eats offensive teams alive. I've seen takes like "tera is a valuable resource your burning for this" which is true but that mostly applies when the mon losing stuff from doing it.

Turn 1 tera wo chien, instant tera garganacl isn't an uncommon course of action and you can just tera captain volcanion with little fuss. Public opinion on this pokemon has been boiling over time no pun intended, and it came at a rotten time. Sandwiched between both shifts that wouldn't do much but get a check of its banned and SCL? Normally, this would've been an easy suspect, and while this is something that while low on the priority scale is something I and others I'm sure are willing to entertain suspecting back down should public opinion shift down the line, or if UU gives us pex or something.

Tldr for my yap fest from a mobile phone, but these are mons that were frankly busted regardless of shifts, and shifts only made them worse in an SCL season. (Also i pressed enter too early on mobile so sorry for double ping lmao)

 

[Lyra]

quickbanning two pokemon that have been here for months after just 1 singular day of shifts is ridiculous lmao can never take lower tiers seriously

Both mons were regularly complained about in both RUcord and quite a bit on the forums, it seems like though almost everyone on council agreed that they must go, waiting for shifts JUST IN CASE something major happened. Seems ridiculous to come complain on a lower tier forum that you cannot take lower tiers seriously LOL. Either way I do agree that there was no real reason to wait but whatever. Better late than never so!

Now with gone I can finally look at this tier and not cry so let's talk about what would change with Volcanion and Gyarados gone!
imo Volcanion gone is massive for two pokemon, Empoleon and Armarouge (Vaporeon is ass use Milotic OMG).
-> Now I don't have to weep and sob each time I slot a knockless Empoleon onto my team cuz dear god having a Water-type that couldn't switch into Volcanion was pretty awkward and required Noivern/ Bike (though the core is still good it just gets more flexible). Unlike other bulky waters who could atleast come into STABs and EP, Empoleon couldn't really come into Flame or Knock without running a copious amount of Special Defense, which is unsurprisingly not good. Now I can run Empoleon teams where I'm not forced into running a second water or a dragon so yay!
-> Though Volcanion wasn't some perfect answer to Armarouge, it has halted many Armarouge sweeps, with the former gone the knight thingy can shred teams more easily but we'll see what happens.
(Personally I feel like Noivern and Bike aren't really "losers" in the sense that now they can devote themselves to other roles like 2a Roost Taunt with actual offensive investment for Noivern and Bike can drop AV MUCH more often).

gone is less directly meta changing imo. Yah yah some mons can run other sets (Slowbro can drop Foul Play more often for example), but it doesn't immediately effect any mons usage too directly. Maybe Feraligatr will get more screen time but that mon is slower than Gardevoir just use SD and stop the DD cope.

had turned into the best Pokemon in the tier since like early RUPL I think so it being gone is pretty big. The most splashable speed control is not in the room with us anymore (thanks Underused!) and less importantly a good offensive Fighting resist. We'll see what people try to replace Zapdos' speed control role with (hopefully not Flamigo).

Anyways the BIGGEST winner of this shift is by far . Despite being faster and having a type advantage, it still somehow lost to Volcanion and didn't do a whole lot to prevent Gyarados from setting up or DYING so them leaving makes Krook more threatening and as if losing Gweez wasnt enough Krookodiles prayers have been answered with Gapdos gone too. I'm very interested how we'll deal with Krookodile.

Mamoswine should be gone and if I like the tier as it develops I'll 100% try to get reqs to get that pig banned.

Anyways I think the meta will finally move to a healthier direction no matter what happens soooo

 

[MC Squared]

RU has been A volatile tier for the past year eh? From the hyper offensive nature of Blastoise and then Yanmega to now these two guys. Will RU ever reach a stable state?

 

[GoldCat]

No, but seriously. I did not, and could not, imagine quickbanning as a serious option on the table, let alone as the unanimous result. This is a blatant failure on the part of the Tier Leaders to lead and the Tiering Council to act. Two months have passed with no action taken: no surveys, no suspect tests. There was enough time for suspect tests for both Gyarados and Volcanion, yet nothing was done. We have been hearing calls for any tiering action for quite a while now, as attested by LBN and Lyra. Gyarados, Mamoswine, and Volcanion did not become quickban-worthy overnight; if they had, they would've been problematic from the start and deserved to be suspect tested.

In the latest survey results (from July 15th), the numbers for Mamoswine and Volcanion were deemed not to be, and I quote, "high enough to justify a suspect test, and so we will not be doing anything.". Mind you, Salamence likewise didn't meet the requirements (in fact, the numbers were lower); despite that, towards the end of July, the Tiering Council acted properly and suspect tested it.

This decision screams damage control for the sake of SCL to me: "Well, Gapdos leaving will upheave the tier anyway, so might as well seize the moment and boot out all the problem mons". Clearly, the leadership's inaction led to an accumulation of banworthy Pokemon that couldn't be dealt with in a timely fashion.

LBN and Lyra, the problem isn't whether the quickbans were justified or not. The quickbans being justified only make it worse! It means that Gyarados and Volcanion were free to roam RU for months with no action taken until the problem could no longer be ignored, and the emergency button was pressed for a quick fix.

Going forward, I hope the Tier Leaders and Tiering Council take steps to implement a more proactive tiering policy. In times of consensus on taking action, but with no internally or communally agreed-upon next step, the leadership must have a unified vision and plan for the tier. Milling about and kicking the can down the road won't do RarelyUsed any good!

Med vänliga hälsningar,

Guldkatt

 

[Canard]

RU has been A volatile tier for the past year eh? From the hyper offensive nature of Blastoise and then Yanmega to now these two guys. Will RU ever reach a stable state?

the day the way shifts work is changed to not get the tier murdered when UU and OU feel like it sure

 

[Elec-ant1234]

RU has been A volatile tier for the past year eh? From the hyper offensive nature of Blastoise and then Yanmega to now these two guys. Will RU ever reach a stable state?

i mean probably now considering two mons, volc and gyara, famed for stifiling counterplay in game and in the builder are now 6 feet under, and we still have all our defensive tools. Now to be fair, gap leaving also loosens the hold on offensive guys a lot more, so it's kind of a push-pull scenario here. Volc, with taunt and general bullshit forced gastro, dragons, and other special walls to just be able to deal with it, and bullied bulky teams. Gyarados just fucking killed everyone and required heavy concessions in the teambuilder to manage, so with both those gone, people'll be able to build more defensively and bulkier, as our current major sweepers of arma, bish (debatably, more of a cleaner imo), and whatever lower tier guy we steal from NU can now be focused on harder without the need for 3 blanket check mons. However, the aforementioned lower tier guys were all kinda held back by gapdos being the greatest revenge killer and offensive powerhouse known to man, so I predict we'll be seeing those guys come back up. I imagine at this point, without our biggest stiflers, we'll be soon approaching a stable state, even with tera in the equation, with defensive practices in the builder getting buffed, and more guys getting released from Gapdos's hold. TLDR, I think we've reduced the general powerlevel for the better, and have stabilized things more. Expect sweepers like regidrago, necrozma, etc to start coming up along with our regular guys like hilligant, but also expect people to be running fat/stall more.

 

[toinha]

RU rn

 

[N_Mareanie]

Y’all are saying these Pokemon were problematic for a good time now - then why was no action taken? If Gyarados and Volcanion were so oppressive for months on end, why did no suspect test happen? “But Galarian Zapdos left, which was a great offensive check!” so we just quickban them? You’re assuming you know exactly the place where the meta is at after Galarian Zapdos left, which you don’t, since the meta has had barely more than *24 hours* to play or adapt. This is just plain wrong tiering and feels like a lame excuse. You have no idea what other potential checks or counter, or teambuilding options open up now that Galardos is gone. Or how the meta will evolve.

Again, if Gyarados and Volcanion were problematic for so long, they should have gotten a suspect test then, or maybe now, but a quickban is extremely ridiculous. Quickbans should only happen when new drops are super broken, like early meta or an Ogerpon drop or something, not for pokemon that have been part of the meta for literal months.

It’s plain wrong tiering and I can not take a tier seriously if a meta staple just gets banned on a whim after a tiering shift without having any say in it like a suspect. It defeats the whole purpose of tiering if we can just do that. I beg to rethink your actions, RU council, and be less reactive in the moment.

 

[Bice]

Y’all are saying these Pokemon were problematic for a good time now - then why was no action taken? If Gyarados and Volcanion were so oppressive for months on end, why did no suspect test happen? “But Galarian Zapdos left, which was a great offensive check!” so we just quickban them? You’re assuming you know exactly the place where the meta is at after Galarian Zapdos left, which you don’t, since the meta has had barely more than *24 hours* to play or adapt. This is just plain wrong tiering and feels like a lame excuse. You have no idea what other potential checks or counter, or teambuilding options open up now that Galardos is gone. Or how the meta will evolve.

Again, if Gyarados and Volcanion were problematic for so long, they should have gotten a suspect test then, or maybe now, but a quickban is extremely ridiculous. Quickbans should only happen when new drops are super broken, like early meta or an Ogerpon drop or something, not for pokemon that have been part of the meta for literal months.

It’s plain wrong tiering and I can not take a tier seriously if a meta staple just gets banned on a whim after a tiering shift without having any say in it like a suspect. It defeats the whole purpose of tiering if we can just do that. I beg to rethink your actions, RU council, and be less reactive in the moment.

im not saying your points are invalid, in fact i agree with them for the most part. however, i find it odd that you've been so angrily attacking a council for a tier you've barely interacted with up until this point.
also weren't you the guy who suggested using ai for analyses

 

[Elec-ant1234]

Y’all are saying these Pokemon were problematic for a good time now - then why was no action taken? If Gyarados and Volcanion were so oppressive for months on end, why did no suspect test happen? “But Galarian Zapdos left, which was a great offensive check!” so we just quickban them? You’re assuming you know exactly the place where the meta is at after Galarian Zapdos left, which you don’t, since the meta has had barely more than *24 hours* to play or adapt. This is just plain wrong tiering and feels like a lame excuse. You have no idea what other potential checks or counter, or teambuilding options open up now that Galardos is gone. Or how the meta will evolve.

Again, if Gyarados and Volcanion were problematic for so long, they should have gotten a suspect test then, or maybe now, but a quickban is extremely ridiculous. Quickbans should only happen when new drops are super broken, like early meta or an Ogerpon drop or something, not for pokemon that have been part of the meta for literal months.

It’s plain wrong tiering and I can not take a tier seriously if a meta staple just gets banned on a whim after a tiering shift without having any say in it like a suspect. It defeats the whole purpose of tiering if we can just do that. I beg to rethink your actions, RU council, and be less reactive in the moment.

I thought this guy was familiar, and it's because the last time this guy interacted with the tier was proposing an unban for zarude, getting cooked (cause he was absolutely wrong), and leaving :sob:
He's also never played a sheet game for any slam tier
View attachment image (3).webp
you can talk about tiering all you want, but at least have SOME credentials and experience in a tier before you start yapping...

 

[Stories]

Y’all are saying these Pokemon were problematic for a good time now - then why was no action taken? If Gyarados and Volcanion were so oppressive for months on end, why did no suspect test happen? “But Galarian Zapdos left, which was a great offensive check!” so we just quickban them? You’re assuming you know exactly the place where the meta is at after Galarian Zapdos left, which you don’t, since the meta has had barely more than *24 hours* to play or adapt. This is just plain wrong tiering and feels like a lame excuse. You have no idea what other potential checks or counter, or teambuilding options open up now that Galardos is gone. Or how the meta will evolve.

Again, if Gyarados and Volcanion were problematic for so long, they should have gotten a suspect test then, or maybe now, but a quickban is extremely ridiculous. Quickbans should only happen when new drops are super broken, like early meta or an Ogerpon drop or something, not for pokemon that have been part of the meta for literal months.

It’s plain wrong tiering and I can not take a tier seriously if a meta staple just gets banned on a whim after a tiering shift without having any say in it like a suspect. It defeats the whole purpose of tiering if we can just do that. I beg to rethink your actions, RU council, and be less reactive in the moment.

Generally I agree with this sentiment (minus the abrasiveness) and while I can't speak for council this seemed to me like once the date for shifts got close enough, they just decided to wait and see if the shifts would potentially provide anything to change Gyarados's and Volcanion's positions in the metagame. The shifts did not provide anything to change their positions in the metagame, so they were quick banned.

Personally I think Gyarados quick ban was good; it was an insanely volatile setup sweeper with too much set variety that allowed it to bypass many of its would-be checks.

Volcanion on the other hand, while I understand it was a ridiculous stat blob with Body Press for Blissey and Cyclizar and coverage for everything else... it wasn't winning games on the spot like Gyarados or Oricorio-Pom Pom or Yanmega were. I'm not sure if I agree with a quick ban on it; many bulky Dragon- and Water-types could easily pivot into Volcanion and it relied pretty heavily on Heavy-Duty Boots while not being super fast. I can definitely buy the idea that it was broken, absolutely, but this really seemed like a prime suspect candidate to me.

With that said I am in full support of fast tiering action, especially during official tournaments, and RU has been quite on top of this since Feen took over. I understand where you're coming from but being combative like this will never accomplish anything.

 

[GoldCat]

also weren't you the guy who suggested using ai for analyses

I thought this guy was familiar, and it's because the last time this guy interacted with the tier was proposing an unban for zarude, getting cooked (cause he was absolutely wrong), and leaving :sob:

How does any of this have to do with the argument at hand? It's so childishly defensive. The post isn't even about the metagame aspect, but on tiering policy. You don't have to play the tier or have a history of good takes to know that the Tiering Council did not act properly.

Generally I agree with this sentiment (minus the abrasiveness) and while I can't speak for council this seemed to me like once the date for shifts got close enough, they just decided to wait and see if the shifts would potentially provide anything to change Gyarados's and Volcanion's positions in the metagame. The shifts did not provide anything to change their positions in the metagame, so they were quick banned.

You do not tier for hypothetical metagames.

 

[fluff!!]

mmmmmh going MIA for several months into double quickban. If you know you know.

RU has been quite on top of this since Feen took over.

I almost choked

how many more excuses will be found is the real question

answer

many

 

[Stories]

oh nah why are y'all after me when I'm agreeing with you LMAO fuck off

You do not tier for hypothetical metagames.

it's not hypothetical budy we're living in it as we speak

 

[FlamPoke]

Petty bickering aside........ nobody cares about these forum posts anyway lets be real.....

Gyarados was an obvious quickban, I don't think anyone could reasonably defend its place in the metagame even if Gapdos hadn't risen. The fact it wasn't banned during previous months where it was clearly uncompetitive and had overwhelming support was annoying and indicative of a Tiering Council that really has not been on top of things but whatever, it's gone now as SCL and RUCL is picking up which is all that matters.

Volcanion is absurdly fat and can trade with basically anything at minimum while also threatening to just blow up a lot of common cores with ease, but seeing it leave immediately feels a little... overreactive, but again it's a fine quickban. I think if it had gone to a suspect it would've been voted out so this just expedites the process and lets the new meta develop a bit faster which is a net positive hopefully.

Mamoswine is a decent suspect candidate, I don't think it has a ton of results to back up the hype but it obviously hits basically the entire tier (besides Slowbro I guess) a little too hard to feel it's a healthy presence in the builder. Whether this gets voted out is probably closer than you'd think to be honest, playing ~30ish ladder games I'd probably expect most people to barely see it and barely feel its presence so idk it is what it is.

Overall, these add up to be positive metagame changes that will make the tier so much better to build and play in. Offense is going to keep developing but I think the balance and bulky offense cores have the resources to adapt to these new advancements and stuff so this is good

 

[N_Mareanie]

however, i find it odd that you've been so angrily attacking a council for a tier you've barely interacted with up until this point.

I’m not attacking the council. I’m offering my
opinion, which may come across as harsh to some, but in no way am I attacking the council

also weren't you the guy who suggested using ai for analyses

I am. What’s your point? If you want to join the discussion offer actual arguments to my points not pointing out stuff that has nothing to do with the current thing

I thought this guy was familiar, and it's because the last time this guy interacted with the tier was proposing an unban for zarude, getting cooked (cause he was absolutely wrong), and leaving :sob:
He's also never played a sheet game for any slam tier
View attachment image (3).webp
you can talk about tiering all you want, but at least have SOME credentials and experience in a tier before you start yapping...

I don’t have to have extensively played a tier to see a certain tiering decision is wrong. I’m not complaining about whether Gyarados and Volcanion were broken or not, I’m talking about the process. I have been tier leader and council member in the past and have the strong opinion that this is absolutely handled poorly. But if you want to bring up past posts of me and think that disproves anything I have to say (which it doesn’t) then please keep quiet, you’re offering nothing of substance.

 

[Feliburn]

Alright.

Gyarados had to go, I don't think anyone is doubting that.

Volcanion forced the same 3 pokemon to be used to be able to check it to a degree that you could realistically slap on a big majority of the teams, Cyclizar, Noivern, Gastrodon. Gastrodon is a good utility pokemon overall, sets up spikes, acts as a defensive water and ground type, and is immune to Volc's strongest stab. Cyclizar and Noivern could play around volc, with Noivern clicking super fang into draco, and cyclizar being able to regen on it, knocking it off to limit how much it switches in. However, the issue comes when Volcanion's scariest set is Tera Blast Tera Fairy to immediately remove Vern and Cyclizar, who also act as the default removal options for the teams they are used in. At that point nobody cares that you blew the tera because the opposing team is already at a disadvantage losing removal, + the offensive checks to Volcanion. I'm not mentioning Blissey because it's more difficult to build with Blissey, it's good but it limits your teambuilding options a bit.

You could also use sp def waters like some sp def slowbro, but in a tier with insane fighters and mamoswine, that ends up backfiring more in actual games.

That's it for reasoning for those who don't play the tier but felt the need to post.

Suspect process was for sure slow, nobody will question that, and I don't think this is anything related to "SCL season" as much as it is "everyone in the community complained 24/7". But nobody cares anymore, mons are banned, and that's what matters right now.

you’re offering nothing of substance.

And all you’re offering is criticism without adding anything constructive. If you want to discuss the tier or the process, the Discord is always open for more casual back-and-forth. But if you’re not playing, not involved in the community, and not contributing beyond a one-off post after quickbans, then your “take” doesn’t really move the conversation forward. If you can’t bring something substantive to the table, it’s probably best not to post in metagame discussion threads.

 

[Canard]

I’m not attacking the council. I’m offering my
opinion, which may come across as harsh to some, but in no way am I attacking the council

if you want to be taken seriously it has been scientifically proven that not coming off as annoying and condescending helps! else you'll just make people angry, at you, hope this example shows my point! maybe reword stuff if it sounds to you as if you're being harsh

I am. What’s your point? If you want to join the discussion offer actual arguments to my points not pointing out stuff that has nothing to do with the current thing

i agree this isn't the best point from ant but yes, having horrible takes like proposing to use the hallucination machine that's notoriously bad at giving exact accurate answers on subjects as niche as mons and arguing to feed it all the relevant info to the point where you might as well have just written it yourself while using more trustworty source paints a picture of you as someone adamant on awful takes that are better left in the drafts and will make it so people on your own side of the argument (like me, and ant, and everyone else responding to your post) will nitpick and critisize you heavily, your post critisizing them doing that is as relevant to the discussion as theirs critisizing you

I don’t have to have extensively played a tier to see a certain tiering decision is wrong. I’m not complaining about whether Gyarados and Volcanion were broken or not, I’m talking about the process. I have been tier leader and council member in the past and have the strong opinion that this is absolutely handled poorly. But if you want to bring up past posts of me and think that disproves anything I have to say (which it doesn’t) then please keep quiet, you’re offering nothing of substance.

again, being condescending and obnoxious with no experience of your own validating wild takes will make you look bad, you DO need to have interacted with something to give an opinion on it

you’re offering nothing of substance.

are YOU? all i see from you is response posts and an original post where you say a less argumented of what guldkatt says and going "the meta can adapt just you wait", which is influenced by the fact you haven't played the tier, and don't know the people so obviously it's harder to make good points, your posts come off as unnuanced and uneducated and your own side is arguing against you
tldr; you're offering nothing of substance

 

[zause]

Alright since my one liner seconding guldkatt got deleted, I'll expand on my post because I believe this is the worst tiering decision I have seen in the tiers I play. I pretty much agree with guldkatt, but I also think that volcanion just is not broken, lol. It is a slowish wallbreaker, which generally tend to underperform from how they would on paper because of tera, but volcanion can actually use it decently for coverage, but that's not even it's sample set or, from my experience, it's most common set. It usually opts to run stabs taunt and then one of fire spin earth power body press or focus blast. If it is the common set, you can send in your Noivern and just hardwall it (rip mence). I also think its a bit easier to pivot around in part because of its speed, but also the fact that it wants to click steam eruption most of the time. If it is this tera fairy blast set it uses it and then is checked by Jirachi, MukA, Gardevoir (who always checks it), still loses to the good gastro set, and Blissey, which people should use more on balances lol, its good. Fat waters can also typical trade with it. Also over 140+ uses in tournaments, it has a lowish 47% winrate, which when compared to something like Mamoswine who's also being considered for a ban, is very low. If it was broken, surely it would be consistently helping its team win, no?

Gyarados was likely broken, but like Guldkatt said, you don't tier on hypothetical metagames.

Restochesto, sub dd, tera dark, taunt tera blast fairy, it's list of sets to punk specific pokemon was silly and its best check ended up becoming just "send in gapdos and snipe it down" because things like inner focus unbreom can't hang with tera fairy.

Also just don't agree with this, I have not once seen taunt tera blast fairy, and I have only seen tera dark on sub DD, so it's basically two sets. If I could see a replay of tera dark outside of sub dd or tb fairy existing let alone putting in work. Maybe replays of this, exist but I just haven't seen them.

also weren't you the guy who suggested using ai for analyses

I thought this guy was familiar, and it's because the last time this guy interacted with the tier was proposing an unban for zarude, getting cooked (cause he was absolutely wrong), and leaving :sob:
He's also never played a sheet game for any slam tier
View attachment image (3).webp
you can talk about tiering all you want, but at least have SOME credentials and experience in a tier before you start yapping...

bringing up stuff from what could be about a year half ago in the case of the latter post to say someone is wrong rather than counteracting the argument does not make your argument look better.

So yea echoing guldkatt both bans are bad purely because they did them before we could develop the tier after a pretty major tier shift, but especially Volc because it was arguably not broken. Ultimately, for me, it is just quite frustrating to see some more questionable bans. I also don't know where this 24/7 bickering is. To me, it is just LBN and the occasional other person complaining. Just wanted to add some stuff as a player who does play the tier, although I don't think not playing the tier makes your argument about tiering policy invalid. Also sorry if I came off as aggressive or anything.

 

[Runo]

Hey as someone who has done their fair share of wonky tiering action, I'm a little confused here. Is the problem with the bans themselves or the non-action before they happened? The latter I can understand because taking a long time to address concerns is frustrating as hell. I'm not really sure how I can stay angry at the former however, even if its truly damage control for SCL. Can't really speak to Volcanion but Gyarados just cheats matchups constantly so me personally I won't be losing sleep over it being quickbanned instead of council wasting 2-3 more SCL and Summer Seasonal weeks for the community to officially ban it. If anyone by the end of either tour says "you know what, Gyarados didn't get its due process. lets suspect it back into the tier, it could be balanced in the metagame after all", I think i would need to get surgery for my jaw with how hard it would drop. I think is it is a complete waste of time to take another look at this.

Now I think if it was just Gyarados the controversy wouldn't be this high, but since Volcanion was wrapped up in it this does raise a bit of eyebrows. I do concur that council should've be more attentive a while back instead of Volcanion being left to its own devices for so long. Is it still worth overturning (at least partially) this quickban slate though? As implied above by Zause it seems like there isn't a hard consensus on if it was broken or not. Probably deserves more due process than Gyarados at a minimum. Should it take precedence over the impending Mamoswine suspect? That's something that I won't answer because I don't seriously play this tier, but that was also because I detested Gyarados in this tier so much. So if anything were to happen I hope that the conclusion is that Gyarados remains RUBL.