CAP 36 - Part 16 - Post Play Lookback

[quziel]

Giving Ramnarok another ability is anti concept since it's based on Meloetta and that only has one ability

Neither the framework nor the concept mention this. We proceeded with that ruling based on what I recall to be discord discussion, but I don't think its required by either the framework nor the concept.

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Taunt makes a lot of sense as a stallbreakery set of Inferno/Blizzard/Polar/Taunt does make sense and does leverage our bulk, typing, and STABs well to pressure some existing low-tempo switchins (Mollux, Shox) at the cost of pressuring opposing waters nearly as well.

At the same time, its unclear how much it moves the needle on promoting flexibility as water types are well, good, common, and not something you want to be mid into. It is conceivable that you could run Inferno/Freeze-Dry/Polar/Taunt instead, however being walled that hard by Garg is not exactly wise. Still, its a good experiment to run, as Taunt does scale well with speed, making them likely best alongside Polar Flare, and the chip inflicted by Inferno likely does at least help you vs Waters, especially with Snael becoming more dominant as of late.

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Grass Knot is in a similar place, being a tech option over Thunder that trades basically any and all damage into Fires (and Kril/Rotom-W) for better damage into Garg. You're never running both Thunder and Grass Knot, so the chance of a 4 Attacks no-Polar Flare build is relatively low, and while it chips away at our counters, it still keeps a number of extremely hard ones, notably Rotom-Wash, Mollux, Krilowatt, and Shox. I should note that the primary reason to run GK is that Tera-Grass Grass Knot comes very close to an OHKO on Garg, and you are a mon that is quite happy to run Tera Grass anyways.

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Package : Increase Flexibility, keep raw power constant

+Grass Knot
+Sound Based Polar Flare

Being hard-walled by Garg is simply not something I want for this mon, and this package lets you tech past it. Grass Knot combined with Tera-Grass lets you nearly, but not quite OHKO Garg with a Timid nature. Garg's a mon that naturally swaps into Inferno all the time, is very common, and is incredibly punishing to give free turns to, so making it more of a check than a counter is something that I think benefits Ram in a lot of ways. Sound-based Polar Flare is definitely a power increase, and allows Ram to focus on the late game if the matchup calls for it, though there's still a lot of incentive to spam Inferno early to e.g. get a burn vs Shox so you can break it late-game with a +1 Blizzard.

 

[Pipotchi]

I agree with the thought that there isnt really a clean path for buffing through abilities, moves etc that doesnt feel like a complete rework, so I wanted to instead pose some buffs that dont massively push the needle but help with an aspect that sits wrong with me:
The defensive risk of Polar Flaring is very large considering the small offensive payoff.

When you Polar Flare, you gain an offensive boost of around 20%. This is the equivalent of something like Charcoal, or a weaker Life Orb. But unfortunately your special defense drops more than 50%- its over twice as defensively crippling than a Shell Smash, for a boost that increases your offensive strength by less than half a Calm Mind. I don't think it would be dramatic to say that Polar Flare is MAYBE on the level of moves like Trailblaze, which are already niche and rare on the mons using them. I also think that Trailblaze and Flame Charge usually work best when used alongside a hefty Attack boosting move, and its just not comparable to a standalone Agility strategy. I strongly believe the mon deserves more bang for its buck, but without turning it into another Throat Sprayer which is more of a one-and-done sweeper that's asking it to be even more cautious with its HP and switching in.

Route 1) Radiant -30 Atk, +30 SpA
164 SpA may sound insane, but it works out to about a 37% offensive boost from base form (134 SpA translates to around 20% offensive boost). Its still not reaching the equivalent of a special dragon dance/throat spray boost (this would require around 80SpA increase) but it feels decidedly more meaningful. Polar Flare + Inferno in boosted form does slightly more damage than 2 Infernos in base form, so the loss in tempo is slightly compensated for. Checks will struggle earlier, such as Mollux going from Thunder doing 27% max to 31% max, and Blizzard will no longer sometimes fail to 2HKO a Ting Lu.

Route 2) Radiant -33 Atk, + 33 SpDef
If the offenses stays the same, does this mon really need to be brutalized so heavily defensively? This is an attempt to restore some of its bulk, making the move safer to click in front of mons you are already faster than, but aren't KOing- ie. Gholdengo, Equilibra, Snaelstrom, and various Paralyzed others. Its special bulk drop is more like 25% here instead of 50%+. You can click Polar Flare in more situations with this buff.



I think we should have been less scared of Polar Flare creating a monster because it requires a turn of setup, if you find the equivalent stats of something like Roaring Moon after a Dragon Dance (230+ Atk, 203 Speed) or even something as weak as Dragon Dance Necrozma (185 Atk, 143 Speed) I think it puts it more into perspective even if it also does some damage. And unlike dragon dancers, it can never reach the upper tiers of speed that prevent it from being rked by simple speedsters like booster energy or increase its damage any further to break through passive walls because it is a one-time boost.

Open to hearing tweaks on both of these routes but hopefully I explained my reasoning for the general route well enough. Even though these numbers are high, I do think they will not massively change this Pokemon. I also think that this stat boost is smaller and less warping than Throat Spray strategies, because I want to preserve the idea of AV or leftovers sets and encourage early-game involvement.

 

[SHSP]

Hey everyone! Want to pop in to put a 48~ hour warning on submissions; if you want to submit something and need some time, reach out to me. Thanks yall!

 

[kenn]

Okay so I wanna chime in here with my thoughts on Ram.

Ramnarok to start is by no means "unviable" as a CAP and in fact has found its niche by being a nuisance spreading the awful burn status. It has showcased the ability to put the opponent on its heels with status spreading coupled with a powerful STAB in Inferno. Unfortunately for Ram though, the way it fits on teams and its weaknesses that need to be covered, plus a lack of desire to click Polar Flare, has left most of the community feeling Ram isn't up to snuff as a welcome addition to the CAP metagame. Furthermore, a lot of people have voiced concerns over Ramnarok's lack of representing not only the concept, but the framework as well.

Because of this, I truly think that while I would be okay with No Changes, as Ramnarok is good but not great, I do believe there is probably a slight buff in order to give Ramnarok a chance to shine without pushing it overboard or overtuning it to where we as a community would have to have a PPL 2 to nerf it back down.

My first statement is that I am a fan, albeit timidly, of DPM's package of -8 Attack, +8 Speed for the reasons mentioned in his post. Going Modest does hurt base a bit, but overall it improves the matchup that Ramnarok-Radiant has as it now outspeeds positive natured Dragapult while getting a much needed boost to its attacks. While hurting base is unfortunate, it does incentivize the transformation and allows Ramnarok-Radiant to not only shine, but be able to represent the concept and framework.

However, I think the problem is that Ramnarok isn't hitting as hard as it could and therefore with my own package, I propose the following:

+ 7 Special Attack
- 7 Attack
+ Grass Knot

What this does is allow Ramnarok to 2HKO Garg with Grass Knot in its base form after Stealth Rock damage and Leftovers recovery. It also allows base Ramnarok to 2HKO standard Arghonaut with Thunder after Stealth Rock damage and Leftovers recovery. This allows Ramnarok to have flexibility when it comes to fitting on a team and give itself more opportunities to set itself up for a sweep as per the concept that was submitted and won during the process. Furthermore, this package is also a small enough change to allow base Ramnarok to still be viable and give Radiant forme a chance to shine as well when it is all said and done.

 

[spoo]

+Grass Knot
+Encore
+10 Spa, -10 Atk (Radiant)

Special attack buff barely stops short of 2hkoing hemogoblin with thunder, and reaches benchmarks like 3hkoing gking with blizzard / 2hkoing garg with grass knot. Grass knot and encore are admittedly not that impactful, but that's also kinda the point. Despite my gripes with how the mon plays / accomplishes its concept, it's ultimately still quite viable, and I think some of the other buffs here overshoot a bit. Goal with this package is just to slightly increase ram's flexibility and give the transformation slightly more oomph.

 

[Rysachi]

It seems pretty well agreed on that Ramnarok is in a somewhat healthy position currently for Dormant and would only need changes to allow Radiant form to have a much larger purpose to allow it to fit the brief better compared to it's current position of being a status inflicting tank with Inferno due to there being some disincentive to click Polar Flare due to the lack of current breaking power in Radiant form due a couple of factors.

The main proposes I suggest with this package should hopefully at least encourage the usage of Radiant form whilst still having Dormant form remain a viable option:

+Grass Knot
+10 SpAtk, -10Atk (Both Forms)
Sound-Based Polar Flare

As stated both by Kenn and Spoo, +10SpAtk on Radiant form ontop of addition of Grass Knot would both allow Grass Knot to 2HKO Garganacl in Dormant form and 3HKO's Glowking with Blizzard in Radiant form whilst coming short on the 2HKO with Thunder on Hemogoblin. The largest part of this change is having Garganacl not become a reliable wall to Ramnarok to prevent Radiant from ever becoming a viable option against one of the larger threats in the metagame whilst still having some counterplay with the likes of Hemogoblin against Radiant and Mollux.

The final change is a lot more debatable and potentially overkill but would not only give a reason to use Polar Flare considering it being an underwhelming option in the current state over the likes of Inferno but allow to further tap into Radiant Form with having synergy with Throat Spray to go all out with damage output with the cost of still coming up short against certain speed tiers that Radiant Form was originally meant to come up short against e.g. Booster Speed Great Tusk ontop of encouraging the choice of using an offensive item for immediate Radiant form vs a more utility based item for Dormant like AV/Boots. This potentially could completely shift the current usage of Ramnarok away from Dormant form to encourage Radiant form entirely but it feels the main process of Ramnarok was to create a situation where Ramnarok would use the form change mechanic compared to Meloetta.

 

[CapitanPabloskii]

-10% Polar Flare freeze chance
+10% Polar Flare burn chance

It just adds more unnecessary variables that comes up rarely.
You go into your Mollux and suddenly you freeze from Polar Flare and get Thunder spammed until you drop. That just doesn't sound competitive to me.
The burn chance gives it a secondairy effect and without it, it would feel empty. We could also give it a higher burn chance like 30% or even 100% but most of the time the enemy pokemon is burned or paralysed already.

+6 spA (Radiant)
-6 spD (Radiant)

The polar flare click feels a bit weak right now and overshadowed by other special sweepers so i want to give it a little power boost to be able to actually get the 2hkos it feels like it should take but it just barely misses. I also think dpm's suggestion is great allowing ram to run modest which gives it the boost it needs. Ram has alot of solid checks in its radiant form so this wouldnt change too much aside from getting the kills it should already take have offense teams actually consider ram. Ever since new toy syndrome left I stopped thinking about Ram in its radiant form and was only interested in its base defensive capabilities since, as I said before, there are much better special sweepers atm. It has such a unique speed tier which should make it really cool to use but it just doesnt get enough value from its speed.

 

[Shock3600]

+Grass Knot
+Encore
+10 Spa, -10 Atk (Radiant)

Special attack buff barely stops short of 2hkoing hemogoblin with thunder, and reaches benchmarks like 3hkoing gking with blizzard / 2hkoing garg with grass knot. Grass knot and encore are admittedly not that impactful, but that's also kinda the point. Despite my gripes with how the mon plays / accomplishes its concept, it's ultimately still quite viable, and I think some of the other buffs here overshoot a bit. Goal with this package is just to slightly increase ram's flexibility and give the transformation slightly more oomph.

Wanted to post in support of this package- considering that the general consensus was that ramn is in an okay spot, but could use a nudge towards more consistent viability/better concept fulfillment, I think this is the lowest risk option with the best chance to directly benefit radiant form instead of pushing it into further irrelevance in favor of base. Sound move would be great and a very obvious way to give an alternate set for ramn that would very clearly want to transform, there's a definite risk that we're going to end up looking at a nerf process afterwards. The spa boost still helps tip the scales but has much less impact than the +1 boost of throat spray, and encore gives an extra tech option that AV can't utilize.

I was wary of gknot at first due to everyone's fear of song only being ran if you have exactly 4 viable attacking moves, but it's largely redundant with the AV base form ramn's set. Grass knot is either vauable due to compressing water and garg coverage (so replacing thunder instead of song), or to give radiant form a much stronger hit against garg- if you're dropping song, flash cannon is (essentially) doing the exact same damage.

The fact that this package gives a very clear but modest boost for radiant without appearing too overbearing or risking making base form even more disproprotionaly used makes this the clear favorite to me.