Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

[Avira]

Ok I have a good question. What is your ideal form of SV OU? This isn't meant in a negative way I am genuinely curious. In fact, I invite everyone to answer this question. The only thing I ask is no dropping ubers unless it is something within reason like dropping Volcarona after a tera blast ban.

I'll answer within the confines of what tiering leadership has deemed acceptable, meaning a Terastal ban, a Baton Pass unban, a Sleep Clause restoration, or disallowing ONLY Terapagos-Terastal from using a universal mechanic are off the table.

In my ideal metagame, the changes compared to current OU would be:

Non-Pokemon bans: Tera Blast (to reduce the volatility of OU. Tera is already hugely impactful, and giving mons powerful coverage they otherwise weren't meant to have is bad for the balance of the game)

Pokemon unbans: Regieleki (Would be RUBL or RU without Tera Blast), Volcarona (Tera Blast allowing it to snipe what would be counters was ridiculous), Espathra (Tera Blast letting it beat strong Steel-type attackers was the main reason it was banned), and Solgaleo

Pokemon bans: Gholdengo (Hate this mon so much for how it constricts building for bulkier archetypes. If Tera were banned, I'd be okay with Gholdengo in OU, but tiering administation has already shut down banning Tera, so that's not an option)

Roaring Moon I briefly considered for an unban without Tera Blast, but SV OU would still have a large number of threats, so from a teambuilding constraint perspective, I opted not to include it in my list of unbans. I wouldn't want Roaring Moon in SV OU unless Tera was outright banned, which is not happening.

I believe the format I described would be better than the current iteration of OU with Dragonite's wings being clipped, the return of a Volcarona with a much lower threat level overall, Kyurem becoming much less of a threat, and Solgaleo joining OU as an additional check to offense.

 

[moore's law]

If Dragonite were to ever get banned, would Salamence gain a niche in OU? It has been utterly outclassed by Dragonite since gen VI because multiscale + espeed has always been more useful for both defensive roles and sweeping.

And a random observation: I feel like a lot of teams are really well prepared for Kingambit and I have found that I often rely on it for its defensive profile more than late game sweeps these days, more often than not you just don't get a lot of chances to click SD.

I know that the reasoning so far has been that SD is undroppable because of random game ending potential (especially if you have preserved Tera), but I'm going to try testing out 4 attack gambit (probably just lefties/balloon to bluff a normal set, but I might try AV like natdex to better take on ghold/dragapult, though that set on the face of it seems terrible without pursuit) for wallbreaking early game to see if that can enable other stuff to clean up more easily. Generally speaking if you see kowtow cleave + iron head, you tend to assume that gambit doesn't have low kick, letting it lure in and take out an opposing gambit out with low kick for example. 4 attack gambit wouldn't even need supreme overlord.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Clause Change: Species Clause becomes Forme Clause, meaning that you can use for example Kanto Zapdos and Galar Zapdos on the same team.

i see this come up every so often and i'm still confused by why exactly someone would want this. aside from the fact that it's unworkable for reasons that have been gone over multiple times, what's the actual benefit? the vast majority of the mon combinations people would try to run under this are just not good. either one of the forms is mid/bad, or they have a big role overlap, or they stack weaknesses that are bad to stack, or they don't synergize well for some other reason. how would this actually help anything, or improve the meta in any way

 

[KamenOH]

how would this actually help anything, or improve the meta in any way

"How does (unban) help the meta" is stupid imo as it presumes a need for something to be beneficial to the metagame for it to be in OU, when all that matters in OU is whether or not something is broken/uncompetitive/sometimes both.

"How is (unban) not broken as previously assumed" is perhaps the only question we should ask, with good faith and serious suspicion given, since it still leaves fault upon the one bringing up the unban while not deluding ourselves on what OU is meant to be, aka the collection of the most used, and not overwhelmingly broken or uncompetitive pokemon and/or strategies.


But to answer your question, I think it would simply allow for more variety. Whether or not it goes anywhere should be up to the playerbase, even if I agree with you that it won't amount to much of anything. Not only would no super serious player bring two Moltres, but I think they'd be dealt with in the same fashion anyways. Also, Goltres would probably be better off as a Mandibuzz, if a Dark/Flying mon is that necessary, right?

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

i see this come up every so often and i'm still confused by why exactly someone would want this. aside from the fact that it's unworkable for reasons that have been gone over multiple times, what's the actual benefit? the vast majority of the mon combinations people would try to run under this are just not good. either one of the forms is mid/bad, or they have a big role overlap, or they stack weaknesses that are bad to stack, or they don't synergize well for some other reason. how would this actually help anything, or improve the meta in any way

Nah, if this goes through and proven not broken, we do not bother ourselves with questions with an obvious undertone like "what does it bring to the meta" and just unban it. This is because this question, despite not looking like it at first glance, is serving an obvious agenda for people who are looking to get longer games. It's similar to "just asking questions" imo.

Though as much as I am for unbans, Sneasler should absolutely stay banned. That thing is an RNG machine in the first place and that's before you throw in Grassy Seed sets.

 

[Setsu]

With Sceens taking over as seen by Vert's incredible OLT run, and with uses from the likes of Ewin, Giannis, and ABR... Which screen setter do you prefer and with what set?


I very much prefer it, and the option to run hazards as last slot is great, as you do not need to put another mon like Iron Treads or Samurott-Hisui somewhat awkwardly. Psycho Boost is still great ofc, and I have also seen other options like Thunder Wave and Teleport.


Poor winrate but part of the earlier screens, around WCoP. With the option to run STAB moves, Veil, Encore, but also Snowscape and Roar. Blizzard is another option, as is running max SpA rather than HP


Still very well disguised, and we have seen it do great while running a variety of moves such as Steel Beam, Roar, Heavy Slam, Close Combat


Dying down again after the initial boom during OLT, but still somewhat around

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

"How does (unban) help the meta" is stupid imo as it presumes a need for something to be beneficial to the metagame for it to be in OU, when all that matters in OU is whether or not something is broken/uncompetitive/sometimes both.

i agree with you on some level, but you also have to remember that an unban or clause change is a change in the status quo, the same way a ban is. if someone wants the status quo to change, they should provide some sort of reasoning as to why their new paradigm is better in a meaningful way, and nobody has done that for species clause. there was even an opportunity to demonstrate any possible benefits during the april fools' day event a while back where there was a "suspect ladder" without the clause, and nobody did that

but this is kind of irrelevant at this point, let's move to something more productive

With Sceens taking over as seen by Vert's incredible OLT run, and with uses from the likes of Ewin, Giannis, and ABR... Which screen setter do you prefer and with what set?


I very much prefer it, and the option to run hazards as last slot is great, as you do not need to put another mon like Iron Treads or Samurott-Hisui somewhat awkwardly. Psycho Boost is still great ofc, and I have also seen other options like Thunder Wave and Teleport.


Poor winrate but part of the earlier screens, around WCoP. With the option to run STAB moves, Veil, Encore, but also Snowscape and Roar. Blizzard is another option, as is running max SpA rather than HP


Still very well disguised, and we have seen it do great while running a variety of moves such as Steel Beam, Roar, Heavy Slam, Close Combat


Dying down again after the initial boom during OLT, but still somewhat around

i've been finding the most success with atales recently, using a modified variation of that old heatranator dondozo veil team. i've also tried variants with confuse ray and body slam for potential rng cheese, and confuse ray in particular produced some interesting results (such as, at one point, winning a 1v1 vs gambit). i don't think these are necessarily good variants of atales, but they're very funny

 

[Magcargo]

With Sceens taking over as seen by Vert's incredible OLT run, and with uses from the likes of Ewin, Giannis, and ABR... Which screen setter do you prefer and with what set?


I very much prefer it, and the option to run hazards as last slot is great, as you do not need to put another mon like Iron Treads or Samurott-Hisui somewhat awkwardly. Psycho Boost is still great ofc, and I have also seen other options like Thunder Wave and Teleport.


Poor winrate but part of the earlier screens, around WCoP. With the option to run STAB moves, Veil, Encore, but also Snowscape and Roar. Blizzard is another option, as is running max SpA rather than HP


Still very well disguised, and we have seen it do great while running a variety of moves such as Steel Beam, Roar, Heavy Slam, Close Combat


Dying down again after the initial boom during OLT, but still somewhat around

I really enjoyed using the Nasty Plot Tera Blast Ground set Storm Zone made for Ninetales-A. Freeze Dry + TB Ground is pretty scary even off of base 81 Special Attack and that set is good at luring a lot of its standard checks like Gholdengo,

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I really enjoyed using the Nasty Plot Tera Blast Ground set Storm Zone made for Ninetales-A. Freeze Dry + TB Ground is pretty scary even off of base 81 Special Attack and that set is good at luring a lot of its standard checks like Gholdengo,

i wonder if tb fire wouldn't be better. the coverage is decidedly worse and the rocks weakness is bad but the steel resist gives you an even bigger edge over ghold, scizor, and iron crown, while also letting you snipe corv. thoughts?

 

[Faux Focalors Furina]

i wonder if tb fire wouldn't be better. the coverage is decidedly worse and the rocks weakness is bad but the steel resist gives you an even bigger edge over ghold, scizor, and iron crown, while also letting you snipe corv. thoughts?

I assume it has something to do with Heatran's flash fire hindering tb fire Atales perhaps but I think the viable ground types available like Great Tusk or Lando-T could help ease the situation but then again, I assume will first set up rocks and that would hurt Atales a lot if it switches in again both pre and post-tera (assuming was spinblocked by Pecha or Ghold and the switch mu games begins after that).

 

[EpicGuy321]

i wonder if tb fire wouldn't be better. the coverage is decidedly worse and the rocks weakness is bad but the steel resist gives you an even bigger edge over ghold, scizor, and iron crown, while also letting you snipe corv. thoughts?

I assume Ground is used specifically for Gking as it resists Poison, hits it SE, and is immune to twave. Also Heatran which is now OU, and potentially to catch Thunderclap.

 

[CatsForGold]

Ground also makes it resist rocks, allowing it to switch in more throughout a match to re-establish screens

 

[658Greninja]

some meta thoughts


+ Ting-Lu is still a top tier mon but pain split Hatt being top 10 in usage and higher usage of grasses (Tealpon, Apple, Rilla) does tank its performance in the meta.


+ NP aren’t as good rn lacking defensive utility other plotters have (Torn, Rai, etc) but it’s the best screens setter and the extra utility puts it above Ayy Tales. Screens is trending upwards again with how many cracked ass abusers exist.


+ Not sure why Pecha dropped last slate, it checks the big 3 physical mons (Zama/Dnite/Waterpon) and NP re-gained traction during OLT and SCL.


+ Hydrapple is legit A- material. Walls every Wellspring lacking Play Rough and sees frequent usage on Sand which has seen an upwards trend. It’s a fantastic breaker and Tera abuser that’s feeds off of Zama/Ting/Ghold BOs.


+ Booster SpA Wake is super slept on. A lot of offenses drop to it after an Agility and still puts in work against bulkier structures.


+ Lots of Sand on the ladder. Will it last? Idk, but Ttar’s defensive utility coupled with its impressive progress making capabilities (Knock + Sand) has been looked at more. CB nearly 2HKOs everything, even Dozo drops to CB 2 Stone Edges with Tera Rock.


+ Tealpon is rly good rn despite the spam of birds and Kyurem. A particular set I’ve become fond of is SD Encore.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

+ Hydrapple is legit A- material. Walls every Wellspring lacking Play Rough and sees frequent usage on Sand which has seen an upwards trend. It’s a fantastic breaker and Tera abuser that’s feeds off of Zama/Ting/Ghold BOs.

I always feel like every SD Wellspring runs Play Rough, and the 4-attack ones can Knock its Boots off and chip it with U-Turn.
Hydrapple feels like B or B+ for me.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

+ Hydrapple is legit A- material. Walls every Wellspring lacking Play Rough and sees frequent usage on Sand which has seen an upwards trend. It’s a fantastic breaker and Tera abuser that’s feeds off of Zama/Ting/Ghold BOs.

i'd put it at a proper right now even. so many of the top mons just give it a signed invitation to switch in and eat something. personally, i'd keep my eyes on body press, which neatly folds gambit and ttar in half and gives apple the ability to break blissey without needing to futz around with setup wars and crit fishing. seems like it could be a dangerous option in the right hands

i also have a hunch that sand is not done yet and we're going to see it do something spectacular in the next couple months

 

[FCKNfuego]

i agree with you on some level, but you also have to remember that an unban or clause change is a change in the status quo, the same way a ban is. if someone wants the status quo to change, they should provide some sort of reasoning as to why their new paradigm is better in a meaningful way, and nobody has done that for species clause.

I don't really care either way for species clause but changing the status quo regarding bans has never been about proving why "a new paradigm" is better nor how it helps or what it adds to a metagame.

Bans have primarily always been about whether something is actually broken or not. Pretty straightforward.

Discussion on things like what's it's adding to a metagame as a means to validate whether it's uber or not just adds more subjective complexity that people tend to never agree on anyway.


Anyways...sharing a fun Gambit set to mess around with that I haven't seen used at all. Primarily I use Iron head but going mono Dark is decent. Tera Ghost for the Body Pressers.

Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Iron Head / Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

 

[Estradiol5mg]

I don't really care either way for species clause but changing the status quo regarding bans has never been about proving why "a new paradigm" is better nor how it helps or what it adds to a metagame.

Bans have primarily always been about whether something is actually broken or not. Pretty straightforward.

Discussion on things like what's it's adding to a metagame as a means to validate whether it's uber or not just adds more subjective complexity that people tend to never agree on anyway.


Anyways...sharing a fun Gambit set to mess around with that I haven't seen used at all. Primarily I use Iron head but going mono Dark is decent. Tera Ghost for the Body Pressers.

Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Iron Head / Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

encore dnite hard counters this but it hard counters any other gambit set, but anyway i feel like in situations where you would sub with gambit you can just attack so its not rlly worth giving up the cowtow or the iron head

 

[U_Quokka]

I don't really care either way for species clause but changing the status quo regarding bans has never been about proving why "a new paradigm" is better nor how it helps or what it adds to a metagame.

Bans have primarily always been about whether something is actually broken or not. Pretty straightforward.

Discussion on things like what's it's adding to a metagame as a means to validate whether it's uber or not just adds more subjective complexity that people tend to never agree on anyway.


Anyways...sharing a fun Gambit set to mess around with that I haven't seen used at all. Primarily I use Iron head but going mono Dark is decent. Tera Ghost for the Body Pressers.

Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Iron Head / Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

Don't most IPressers still beat this? W/O KTC Corv can still stall you out and chip you to death with helmet and Zama can still Crunch/Roar to beat this.

 

[Morkal]

Hi everyone! Sorry for my long absence as of late, life pretty much hasn't stopped moving for me (and probably won't slow down for a bit until later next year). I've only been able to play a bit here and there, but a Pokémon that I've been enjoying quite a bit in OU is Wo-Chien.

Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 224 HP / 188 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Taunt / Foul Play
- Leaf Storm​

96 Speed EVs put Wo-Chien at 200 speed, letting it outspeed neutral 252 Kingambit, Ursaluna, Iron Hands, and Azumarill, along with non-scarf Glimmora, 0 neutral bulky Heatran, and 0 neutral bulky Raging Bolt. With 188 Special Attack and Leaf Storm, Wo-Chien can pull off impressive feats like OHKOing physical Dondozo and Azumarill, along with having a 33% chance to OHKO bulky Tera Water Gliscor. Knock Off, Leech Seed, and Taunt provide an incredible utility trifecta, but if you think having an actual hard-hitting Dark-type attack would be more helpful here, you could run STAB Foul Play. Additional movepool options for different set variants that you could use with Wo-Chien are Body Press, Ruination, Giga Drain, Dark Pulse, Light Screen, Reflect, Zen Headbutt, and Power Whip.

Damage Calculations

188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 504-594 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 428-506 (125.1 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 314-372 (89.2 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Hi everyone! Sorry for my long absence as of late, life pretty much hasn't stopped moving for me (and probably won't slow down for a bit until later next year). I've only been able to play a bit here and there, but a Pokémon that I've been enjoying quite a bit in OU is Wo-Chien.

Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 224 HP / 188 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Taunt / Foul Play
- Leaf Storm​

96 Speed EVs put Wo-Chien at 200 speed, letting it outspeed neutral 252 Kingambit, Ursaluna, Iron Hands, and Azumarill, along with non-scarf Glimmora, 0 neutral bulky Heatran, and 0 neutral bulky Raging Bolt. With 188 Special Attack and Leaf Storm, Wo-Chien can pull off impressive feats like OHKOing physical Dondozo and Azumarill, along with having a 33% chance to OHKO bulky Tera Water Gliscor. Knock Off, Leech Seed, and Taunt provide an incredible utility trifecta, but if you think having an actual hard-hitting Dark-type attack would be more helpful here, you could run STAB Foul Play. Additional movepool options for different set variants that you could use with Wo-Chien are Body Press, Ruination, Giga Drain, Dark Pulse, Light Screen, Reflect, Zen Headbutt, and Power Whip.

Damage Calculations

188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 504-594 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 428-506 (125.1 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 314-372 (89.2 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

time is a flat circle

Ladies & Gentlemen
I would like to talk to you about the Pokémon Wo-Chien

The Pokémon Wo-Chien has been put in the UU Tier.
I feel an error has been made with Wo-Chien.

I feel Wo-Chien is a OU Tier Pokémon.
Am I the only one who feels this way?

I would like to share with you a Wo-Chien Game.
The game is low quality so forgive me if you see any errors or mistakes.
The game is also very unusual as my opponent seems to have been using a team I’m not familiar with.

My team is Bulky Offense Team with Skeledirge or Donzdo
My opponent team is a Stall team with PP reduction & Disabling moves.

I don’t want to spoil to much, but let me say my opponent ran a Tanky Cursed Body DragonPult with Disable.
We can all agree not many people run a Dragonpult like that so it was a very interesting and unusual team set up.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1734569584

I will admit the battle was long.
It took over 100 rounds.
The reason why is due to my style of Play.

In Chess, The terminology people use to describe my play style is Positional.
I am a positional player.

Some people in chess are aggressive.
They like fast attacks and sacrificing pieces to win in blaze of glory.

We would call Hyper Offense aggressive.
It’s like someone taking a Gun and shooting a person in head.
It’s aggressive and fast.

Positional Play would be like putting a person in a Big oven and slowly turning the temperature from low to medium to high.
A person in an oven will die.
It’s going to be slow, painful and methodical.

Pokémon Death by thousands Spike entries cuts!
I’m play in a way which forces you to switch and when you do you will take hazard damage.
I’m keep chipping you down.
I’m keep the pressure on you.
I’m slowly turn up the heat, until your position cracks or you boil over inside and make a mistake.

My opponent resigned in this game.
The reason she resigned is because she did a defensive Terra to save her Pokémon.
The problem is the Terra she did opened the flood gates for my true sweeper.

The match winner in this battle was going to be Skeledirge.
My opponent had a counter to my Skeledirge, but I positionally kept pressuring my opponent with some of my other Pokémon.
My opponent felt the pressure and Terra her Pokemon to save it from fainting, but in the process it caused my Skeledirge to become unchallenged.

NOW RETURNING BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND:
Skeledirge might have been Match Winner!

HOWEVER, IF WE WAS TO GIVE AN MVP (MOST VALUEABLE POKÉMON) AWARD, IT WOULD HAVE TO GO TO WO-CHIEN!
Did you see Wo-Chien in that battle?

My opponent said NOTHING, BUT YOU CAN TELL IN THE BATTLE SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED BY THAT WO-CHEIN.
She threw every Pokémon she had to kill my Wo-Chien.

She tried to faint him 6 times with 6 different Pokémon.
My Wo-Chien looked like a cat with 9 lives.

Their is no way Wo-Chien is UU Pokémon.
Wo-Chien is to insane to be in UU.
Wo-Chien has OU all over him.

You know my style of play ladies and gentlemen!
Death by thousand Spike Entry Hazard cuts!

- Imagine Spikes on the field.
- A Tanky Wo-Chien staring you down
- Wo-Chien moves throwing Leech Seed at you

WHAT DO YOU DO?
Do you stay in and let the Leech Seed suck the life out of your Pokémon?
or
Do you switch out and fall right into my deadly strategies Trap?

Do those options even sound good?
I’m telling you this Pokémon is to powerful for UU.

I am going to show you the build I used in the above Pokemon Battle.

Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Dark Pulse
- Energy Ball

WARNING: I STILL DON’T KNOW WHAT MOVES I WANT TO RUN ON WO-CHIEN.

Wo-Chien move pool is so insane I struggle trying to figure out what I want to run on him.
I’m like a little kid in a candy store.

I went with a standard bare bones set up.
He has little bit more Special Atk vs. Atk.
He is Dark & Grass.

I went with 1 Dark move & 1 Grass move which are Special Atk that have 100% accuracy.
My strategy is about wearing enemy down with consistent damage and pressure.

I went with Leech Seed & Protect.
It is a set up I have ran in the past which I love.

These 4 moves caused all the devastation in the PokéMon Battle.
They are not even the tip of the iceberg.

He has so many more moves which can be used in addition to the ones I already used.
- They gave him Knock off.
All the players trying to counter my strategy with Heavy Duty Boots
”Oooppss” Knock off says Good Bye

- They gave him Taunt.
It can stop set ups against him as well as Pokémon who may try to recover health against him

- They gave him both Screens
If you thought he was tough to kill WITHOUT screens, Wait, until he puts them up.

- They gave him Crippling moves
He can paralyze & toxic

I am like fat kid in candy store so many moves to try so little time.
Image the following set up:
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Reflect
- Light Screen

THE GREAT WALL OF CHINA BROUGHT TO YOU BY WO-CHEIN DYNASTY!
His name even sounds like Chinese Emperor are you kidding me?

A UU Pokémon?
I don’t believe it
I look at this Pokémon and think he is Ferrothorn on Steriods.

but in seriousness, i do think wo-chien has niche potential here. as ting-lu already demonstrates, literally nothing likes switching into ruination, and almost nothing likes switching into knock or leech seed either. it's a fantastic way to force progress. there is the minor issue that it doesn't actually force switches because it matches up poorly against almost everything in the tier, but i'm sure the right set with the right support could take advantage of bootspam and other momentum-heavy teams

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Hi everyone! Sorry for my long absence as of late, life pretty much hasn't stopped moving for me (and probably won't slow down for a bit until later next year). I've only been able to play a bit here and there, but a Pokémon that I've been enjoying quite a bit in OU is Wo-Chien.

Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 224 HP / 188 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Taunt / Foul Play
- Leaf Storm​

96 Speed EVs put Wo-Chien at 200 speed, letting it outspeed neutral 252 Kingambit, Ursaluna, Iron Hands, and Azumarill, along with non-scarf Glimmora, 0 neutral bulky Heatran, and 0 neutral bulky Raging Bolt. With 188 Special Attack and Leaf Storm, Wo-Chien can pull off impressive feats like OHKOing physical Dondozo and Azumarill, along with having a 33% chance to OHKO bulky Tera Water Gliscor. Knock Off, Leech Seed, and Taunt provide an incredible utility trifecta, but if you think having an actual hard-hitting Dark-type attack would be more helpful here, you could run STAB Foul Play. Additional movepool options for different set variants that you could use with Wo-Chien are Body Press, Ruination, Giga Drain, Dark Pulse, Light Screen, Reflect, Zen Headbutt, and Power Whip.

Damage Calculations

188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 504-594 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 428-506 (125.1 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188+ SpA Wo-Chien Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 314-372 (89.2 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

I've been running a defensive (may have to try this variation?) Wo-chien on a sand team and its actually... functioning well?? A bulky grass that isn't 2x weak to ice is (u-turn weakness hurts though.....) actually pretty goated. Ruination/foulplay/leech/leafstorm feels real good against a lot of common mons.

 

[658Greninja]

Wanna talk a bit about Ceruledge because this mon has become the GOAT in my eyes.


Ceruledge @ Life Orb
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Poltergeist
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak

LO Ceru is one of the best breakers on HO/Screens/etc. This spread seems odd, but with screens up, it lets Ceruledge survive most hits in the tier to farm Weak Armor speed boosts. At +2 it outspeeds Dragapult and Zamazenta. It misses out on creeping booster mons and Scarfers, but most of those dudes can be picked off by Tera Ghost Shadow Sneak. To show you how insane LO Ceru is, look at this calc.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 386-456 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here Moltres, one of the most fraud physical walls in the format, gets sent to the shadow realm by +2 Poltergeist WITHOUT TERA.

Now look at these calcs (post Tera)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 554-653 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 346-407 (107.1 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These are the fattest mons in the tier and Ceruledge is just dropping then like a boom mic. Don’t think Dozo is safe either.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 221-260 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

Having the ability to 2-shot Dozo of all mons is nasty work.

Not only is Ceru good for HO offensively, but also defensively, humbling all the Wisp spammers and being a semi-bulky Fairy resist.

I thought Ceruledge would fall off after rising to OU, but it seems to only get better with Screens and Offenses seeking its aid to punish Balances that are hyper-focused on walling Wellspring/Nite/Zama.

Thoughts?

 

[mcribs]

Wanna talk a bit about Ceruledge because this mon has become the GOAT in my eyes.


Ceruledge @ Life Orb
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Poltergeist
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak

LO Ceru is one of the best breakers on HO/Screens/etc. This spread seems odd, but with screens up, it lets Ceruledge survive most hits in the tier to farm Weak Armor speed boosts. At +2 it outspeeds Dragapult and Zamazenta. It misses out on creeping booster mons and Scarfers, but most of those dudes can be picked off by Tera Ghost Shadow Sneak. To show you how insane LO Ceru is, look at this calc.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 386-456 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here Moltres, one of the most fraud physical walls in the format, gets sent to the shadow realm by +2 Poltergeist WITHOUT TERA.

Now look at these calcs (post Tera)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 554-653 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 346-407 (107.1 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These are the fattest mons in the tier and Ceruledge is just dropping then like a boom mic. Don’t think Dozo is safe either.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 221-260 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

Having the ability to 2-shot Dozo of all mons is nasty work.

Not only is Ceru good for HO offensively, but also defensively, humbling all the Wisp spammers and being a semi-bulky Fairy resist.

I thought Ceruledge would fall off after rising to OU, but it seems to only get better with Screens and Offenses seeking its aid to punish Balances that are hyper-focused on walling Wellspring/Nite/Zama.

Thoughts?

Absurd breakers like ceru coming back is imo a sign that shit might be hitting the fan. Screens HO with deo-S are all over the place and tbh they end up with lead deos praying they win the speed tie with taunt. Its a little obnoxious when you see the same screens/veil HO team. Just some immediate thoughts about ceru taking over the meta(or maybe advocating for light clay ban though its a bit wack in it of itself )

Tldr Lorb ceru is disgustingly strong and you need a super bulky resist to not get bulldozed

 

[ILoveGarchom]

Wanna talk a bit about Ceruledge because this mon has become the GOAT in my eyes.


Ceruledge @ Life Orb
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Poltergeist
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak

LO Ceru is one of the best breakers on HO/Screens/etc. This spread seems odd, but with screens up, it lets Ceruledge survive most hits in the tier to farm Weak Armor speed boosts. At +2 it outspeeds Dragapult and Zamazenta. It misses out on creeping booster mons and Scarfers, but most of those dudes can be picked off by Tera Ghost Shadow Sneak. To show you how insane LO Ceru is, look at this calc.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 386-456 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here Moltres, one of the most fraud physical walls in the format, gets sent to the shadow realm by +2 Poltergeist WITHOUT TERA.

Now look at these calcs (post Tera)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 554-653 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 346-407 (107.1 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These are the fattest mons in the tier and Ceruledge is just dropping then like a boom mic. Don’t think Dozo is safe either.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 221-260 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

Having the ability to 2-shot Dozo of all mons is nasty work.

Not only is Ceru good for HO offensively, but also defensively, humbling all the Wisp spammers and being a semi-bulky Fairy resist.

I thought Ceruledge would fall off after rising to OU, but it seems to only get better with Screens and Offenses seeking its aid to punish Balances that are hyper-focused on walling Wellspring/Nite/Zama.

Thoughts?

I agree lol, life orb ceruledge is a very cool breaker for screens esp with ada polter crushing so many phys def mons allowing its teammates cough cough garchomp cough cough to clean up after. Im a big fan personally

 

[Unstoppable1]

Wanna talk a bit about Ceruledge because this mon has become the GOAT in my eyes.


Ceruledge @ Life Orb
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Poltergeist
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak

LO Ceru is one of the best breakers on HO/Screens/etc. This spread seems odd, but with screens up, it lets Ceruledge survive most hits in the tier to farm Weak Armor speed boosts. At +2 it outspeeds Dragapult and Zamazenta. It misses out on creeping booster mons and Scarfers, but most of those dudes can be picked off by Tera Ghost Shadow Sneak. To show you how insane LO Ceru is, look at this calc.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 386-456 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here Moltres, one of the most fraud physical walls in the format, gets sent to the shadow realm by +2 Poltergeist WITHOUT TERA.

Now look at these calcs (post Tera)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 554-653 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 346-407 (107.1 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These are the fattest mons in the tier and Ceruledge is just dropping then like a boom mic. Don’t think Dozo is safe either.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 221-260 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

Having the ability to 2-shot Dozo of all mons is nasty work.

Not only is Ceru good for HO offensively, but also defensively, humbling all the Wisp spammers and being a semi-bulky Fairy resist.

I thought Ceruledge would fall off after rising to OU, but it seems to only get better with Screens and Offenses seeking its aid to punish Balances that are hyper-focused on walling Wellspring/Nite/Zama.

Thoughts?

mon is insanely broken, has no defensive counterplay at all, for me it just deserves to be quick-banned and ceruledge suspect makes no sense.

40-50% of people think life orb ceruledge is terrible (based on a ou room poll), so it was not even included in the last survey LUL, but I bet in a few months people will start talking more about this unhealthy and uncompetitive threat (I hope)

i'm only talking about lo+tera ghost set, but keep in mind it can also run tera blast sets+moves like cc/destiny bond.