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Announcement SV Monotype Suspect #12: Midnight Sun (Heat Rock Suspect Test)

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After a whole week of countless alts and frustrating losses to the low ladder demons, i FINALLY got reqs.

With that being said, I am voting BAN on Heat Rock. This item being suspected before Volcarona or Heartflame caught my attention, because I originally thought that the general consensus was that fire was inconsistent but strong type that doesn’t necessary always need sun to function (Ethereal Sword showing good reason why) but that 8 turns of sun is a sweet spot that enables the previously mentioned to end games like that. Through reading this discussion forum and from talking to many players throughout the tier, my opinion became quite erratic, as multiple viewpoints began to shape how i viewed not only the item, but Ninetales as a setter aswell. HWish is a move that I think fire abuses without a doubt the best, having 3 (Usually) sun boosted sweepers to return and potentially end the game again. Removing 8 sun turn effectively nerfs not only these big sweepers/breakers, but also the presence of Ninetales and its HWish enabling. I think this is a healthy change the tier needs because it keeps fire at bay, while also still allowing it to utilize key Pokémon well.

Shout outs to adjustments for rooting for me, kiru for being the best, Irys for the amazing band scor team that carried the HELL out of me to finally get reqs, and Wincon for Oricorio.
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got reqs, voting ban

used fire all the way throughout my run and found that the type as a whole wasn't as oppressive as made out to be. with heat rock though, games turn out to be much more matchup dependent, as tough games become even tougher for my opponents and even allowed me to steal a number of games from the extra sun turns. I firmly believe removing heat rock won't neuter the type as well (and apparently it's better on grass anyway?), so we can take the edge off types that could have a chance if not for the extra turns with boosted damage (the biggest issue), extra recovery, and water-reduction for set up opportunities
 
Want to precise my thought now I get my reqs and wait 1 week to see all the messages here. For the context I decide to use fire during 85% of my suspect, that was not a type I used a lot before and this consolidated my idea heat rock should be ban. It was really too easy to get my reqs like that and I really regret to not abuse about fire before for my tournament.


They are lot of debate about this suspect one of them is "why they decide to suspect heat rock and not X mon ?", X = in general Volcarona or Ogerpon or Ceruledge. That's debate is interesting because imo it shows exactly why we decide to suspect heat rock and not one of them. How we should know which one is the good shot if even all the community aren't agree on which one is the worse. Honnestly I don't really want to start a wave of suspect just because we realized it's at the same time volcarona, ogerpon, ceruledge and cinderace who makes fire that hard to manage.


They are one common thing who boost all of this threat, that's the heat rock. If I give u my personnal opinion, maybe volcarona deserve a ban, maybe not. But it's hard to be confident about this subject when I know heat rock is still here. I mean u can set up ur volcarona vs a urshifu-rapid strike band when the sun is up, I think it's more harder when it's not.

252 Atk Choice Band burned Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Volcarona on a critical hit: 288-342 (79.1 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band burned Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Volcarona in Sun on a critical hit: 138-165 (37.9 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

In the both case the urshifu is burned, the only change is the sun. That's only one calc, but pretty sure u are able to understand it works for all the waters of the tier. So yeah I have good reason to think a ban of heat rock will unlock new way to manage volcarona in all the match up. And I don't talk about how opressive are Ogerpon/Cinderace or ceruledge when sun is up, because it's not only a good resistance who will help u to manage it. For me it's the main reason why 8 turns of sun is too much, a monotype game vs fire last like 20 turns in general I will say. It's fast but that's also mean the sun is up 80% of the time. Not all the time are dragon who has the luxury to have 3/4 resistance to switch in on the pyro ball/ivy cudgel and remember increase the dammage of bitter means increase the heal. With sun 80% of the time up, tempo isn't a way so it's a question of -> u have a better offense basically (so hope u are lucky with flame body !).

If I have to resume my think, we have to ban heat rock in first and THEN we will be able to debate properly about the others threat.

I don't really try to convince people who doesn't think fire is that strong, who doesn't think heat rock is that good or who thinks fire doesn't need sun to work. I mean, usage in tournament doesn't lie, if it wasn't that good why people able to win tournament play the type ? With always a similar 6, who has ninetales heat rock. But I will not try to convince them, because I will be way more sad to see people agree on the fact fire needs a tiering action, but decide to vote DNB here just because they think it's X mon who are the problem.



Sorry for the grass and dragon sun user, blame fire for being dumb.
 
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Went 25-1 (that specs meow deserved the win) to get reqs, and I will be voting Do Not Ban.

I've never considered Sun Fire to be broken, and getting reqs has convinced me that it is indeed not all that oppressive. What it boils down to is that Heat Rock makes Fire better at doing what it would already be doing without it, without altering the team much or flipping matchups. In that way, it's sort of a "win harder" option, which doesn't warrant a ban.

If we look at the top types, the previously mentioned sub Volcarona that can stomp on dragon teams would still do so without the extra sun turns, while for non-sub Volcaronas, the dragon matchup becomes near impossible. For Steel, Ogerpon-H does not need 3 extra sun turns to spam Ivy Cudgel and win. For Rainless Water, the Rock makes the matchup more even, but doesn't break it in Fire's favour. Lastly, for Flying, yes, the Rock makes breaking through its defensive core easier, but Ogerpon-H is already favoured to break through it without extra Sun, and Flying already has good answers to it that could be used on it if you're worried about Sun. As such, I fear banning the Rock would centralise the meta further around the top types at the expense of a type that isn't even broken.
 
Heya, I got reqs a week ago with my old reliable ground, but i was still very biased about Heat Rock being balanced, cause sand ground usually steamrolls fire anyway.


So I waited a bit more to test ladder with other 2 low types teams: this electric and this grass. Granted, electric have some advantage for the 2 Protosynthesis mons, but if Bulkyrona
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setup in the right moment can be problems for electric. Still Supercell Slam Eleki
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with scarf Shocks
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Power Gem means is always under control.


With grass it was a bit harder, the first grass vs fire I played I lost badly, but I changed my team (I have tried some weird things, from like Bulk Up Rillaboom
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to a weird Curse Recover Hydrapple
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), but I'm happy with the final team. Also I was able to win again a good sun fire player, so theres that too. I'm gonna test more to see how it goes.


My final thoughts about Heat Rock is just that is not only balanced in the meta, is good for the meta. If you tell me Fire have actually a sport chance to defeat top types like dragon or flying, thats good in my books. If people start thinking Bulkyrona
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is the problem, then thats another matter.


Note 1: more people could start running scarf Iron Treads
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on steel, scarf Archa
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alone don't pull it anymore.

Note 2: suspect gliscor :pip:
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Fire isn't even the main benefactor of heat rock IMO. I think grass and dragon benefit from manual setters more than fire, which is in a good place as is not because of sun abusers, but because of raw set-up potential that sun doesn't really help with. Grass could honestly do with that little boost; and while dragon sun would be heat in theory, there are just so many better ways to play dragon that I reckon it would be a tour fish at best. Bug could also be cool with slither + leavanny? But that's a half-baked idea.
I think regardless of where we stand on ban or dnb we need to shut this down. This is just obviously not a real stance. Neither sun grass or sun dragon are prevalent or competitive in any fashion in this meta. It’s like saying we should unban smooth rock for sand steel. Lets keep it real.
 
I think regardless of where we stand on ban or dnb we need to shut this down. This is just obviously not a real stance. Neither sun grass or sun dragon are prevalent or competitive in any fashion in this meta. It’s like saying we should unban smooth rock for sand steel. Lets keep it real.

To be very clear, I made that comment not to argue either for or against the item specifically, but rather as an observation from my (very short) time laddering to get recs. Simply put, heat rock was such a non-factor in my 31 games that it was only really notable on two grass and dragon teams I faced once or twice. All the fire I used and faced did away with sun altogether, hence my stance.

I'd also like to clarify that this is far from my main tier, and I don't claim to be up to date on either the ladder or tour meta. I just enjoyed playing mono swiss and decided to participate in this suspect test for shits n gigs. So, from the entirety of my monotype experience which constitutes 8 rounds of swiss and 31 games on the ladder, I have seen 0 heat rocks on fire and 3 on grass and dragon. From that sample size, and in my own building and theory-crafting, these are the conclusions I have reached about the viability of different archetypes. I think I'm perfectly justified in sharing my stance, especially with the very clear note that this is just My Opinion.

If you think that shouldn't be taken into consideration, or that I shouldn't get a vote/voice because I haven't been playing this tier as long, then maybe the voting recs should be revised. As things stand though, this is just my two cents, and anyone is more than welcome to disagree or find it silly.
 
If you think that shouldn't be taken into consideration, or that I shouldn't get a vote/voice because I haven't been playing this tier as long, then maybe the voting recs should be revised.

Try not to strawman. All I said was that sun grass and sun dragon are not real builds to take into consideration, and to expand on that, entertaining this argument devalues everything that everyone says on the subject in my opinion. If we can’t shut down the nonsense, how are we supposed to have a real discussion surrounding the suspect? I didn’t say that we should send the mono police to your home to detain you, I was very clearly stating that your argument here was simply not relevant to the discussion felt the need to respond to it because people are parroting it now.
 
Try not to strawman. All I said was that sun grass and sun dragon are not real builds to take into consideration, and to expand on that, entertaining this argument devalues everything that everyone says on the subject in my opinion. If we can’t shut down the nonsense, how are we supposed to have a real discussion surrounding the suspect? I didn’t say that we should send the mono police to your home to detain you, I was very clearly stating that your argument here was simply not relevant to the discussion felt the need to respond to it because people are parroting it now.
Heat Rock is being suspect tested and this thread is for discussion of the item. Heat Rock isn’t Cinderace whom is native to only Fire. His opinions on what teams Heat Rock is used on is relevant to the discussion about the item, not just Fire.
 
Heat Rock is being suspect tested and this thread is for discussion of the item. Heat Rock isn’t Cinderace whom is native to only Fire. His opinions on what teams Heat Rock is used on is relevant to the discussion about the item, not just Fire.
your first post on this thread talks exclusively about dragon and nobody accused you of derailing the thread so idk why you feel the need to play cop. Acting like sun Dragon / Grass are legitimate / viable would be extremely disingenuous. Nobody preparing for a tournament match goes, shoot I really need to account for the aforementioned archetypes.

anyway if heat rock doesn't get banned i hope that doesnt trick the council into thinking the community wants to wait a long time for another suspect. hell drop the ogerpon or gliscor suspect 2 days after this one ends and you wont see anyone complaining
 
Heat Rock is being suspect tested and this thread is for discussion of the item. Heat Rock isn’t Cinderace whom is native to only Fire. His opinions on what teams Heat Rock is used on is relevant to the discussion about the item, not just Fire.
There is no reason to entertain muddying the water with someone talking about something that has no real impact on the metagame because it’s not an archetype that gets ran above 1400 elo, much less seeing tournament play. He’s free to say whatever he wants, but I’m also free to point out that the points he’s making are simply just not relevant to the competitive side of the metagame we are discussing. If you genuinely believe that sun grass or sun dragon have a niche in the metagame I expect to see these archetypes ran from your SV slots in MWP. Good luck with that, man.
 
your first post on this thread talks exclusively about dragon and nobody accused you of derailing the thread so idk why you feel the need to play cop. Acting like sun Dragon / Grass are legitimate / viable would be extremely disingenuous. Nobody preparing for a tournament match goes, shoot I really need to account for the aforementioned archetypes.
There is no reason to entertain muddying the water with someone talking about something that has no real impact on the metagame because it’s not an archetype that gets ran above 1400 elo, much less seeing tournament play. He’s free to say whatever he wants, but I’m also free to point out that the points he’s making are simply just not relevant to the competitive side of the metagame we are discussing. If you genuinely believe that sun grass or sun dragon have a niche in the metagame I expect to see these archetypes ran from your SV slots in MWP. Good luck with that, man.
The man was talking about archetypes that use Heat Rock and he’s told it’s not relevant to the discussion. That’s the only wrong thing I’m pointing out. I do not think Sun Grass nor Sun Dragon are viable and my post did not allude to that at all. This thread is for people to post their thoughts and experiences about Heat Rock, whether we agree with them or not.

anyway if heat rock doesn't get banned i hope that doesnt trick the council into thinking the community wants to wait a long time for another suspect. hell drop the ogerpon or gliscor suspect 2 days after this one ends and you wont see anyone complaining
Wasn’t policing anyone but if you want me to:

You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects
 
Respectfully a majority of this discussion thread has turned into a flat out argument and it needs to be dropped. Yes indifference of opinion is one thing but going from simple debate to flat out arguing is counter productive to the nature of conversation.



Everyone is valid in what they say given if someone feels differently on the subject matter or not.


Seriously come on.
 
Heat rock not broken. On the cusp but should stay. Rock make good type potentially great and gives fire personality in SV and the ability to compete with top types. Not getting recs in my ostracized state atm but idc if it gets banned - I then keep using my boots torkoal team and nothing changes and I still win the same MUs.

Cheese is inherent to the 3 mons all the good players are mentioning with or without heat rock. That’s the problem with fire. Banning heat rock isn’t as sensible as it initially seems given the difficulty in nailing down the culprit to balance fire. Can’t do it - 3 broken parts are 3 broken parts, not 3 good mons who become broken or ban-worthy together with the sum of 3 extra sun turns.

Mole right, genuine informed discourse == only good discourse. Also if you run heat rock grass or dragon, i’ve got some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you, hit my line.
 
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Let me start off my perspective on Heat Rock, and Fire as a whole, with a personal anecdote on my pet cat.

See, one of my cat's is named Bug, and while Bug is a perfect loaf of a creature, for the longest time he was also quite the fucking idiot. So much so, that for a good while our nickname for Bug was "Lobotomy Cat", this was due to the absent look in his eyes that suggested a complete lack of brain functionality and general dumbassery. We'd see Bug stick his face in a bowl of walnuts and raise his head in confusion with cheeks full before falling off the table. The depth of Bug's persona is beyond just being aloof and absent minded though, as a taste for fresh air has developed in Bug a tendency to try and run out the door. This quality of constantly trying to run away has given him a second nickname: "Deadbeat Dad". Now just as Bug seems pretty aptly described as a braindead creature that constantly tried to run away, so too is Fire a fully braindead type where morons can run away with the game fully on the merits of mindlessly clicking.

Now, while non-mono mains who don't know better try to portray the tier as nothing more than Russian Roulette, Fire is perhaps the one case where they might be correct. You load fire, you mindlessly click for 15 turns, the game ends and you're dumber for it. Watching TV all day turns your brain to cheese, and so does playing fire. Obviously this in of itself does not warrant regulation of the type, it's the most mindless of types, but that in itself isn't a problem. The issue with fire comes from the addition of FirePon, Ceruledge, and Volcarona in 8 turns of Sun. It's not just a matter of "mindlessly clicking", it's mindlessly clicking with 3 of the most threatening setup sweepers in the tier supported by Healing Wish and 8 turns of Boosted Fire Moves + Half Damage to Water Attacks. Some types can handle this without much issue, others I feel get stretched thin in this metagame. I see these 2 things in combination as part of why Heat Rock is being suspected. Covering fire in the builder can feel like a contradiction, and part of the problem with fire is fully just that. The effort to cover fire, for many types, can require undermining multiple other matchups for little other benefit. Covering fire to me, as a result, often feels more like a choice than an optimization.

Now I just finished getting reqs, and shamefully, getting reqs took me 2 attempts. My second attempt was pretty easy, I just spammed ground and got reqs in 24 games. My first attempt, however, started off with me spamming Poison, and was followed with a switch to Dark and Dragon where multiple back to back 10% misses caused me to bin the run. Now as many people know I kinda just use whatever I want when I play or ladder, this includes going through every type as well as engaging in shenanigans like Specs Ttar Dark, but also I'd say has led to me getting a decent enough look into every type and into building for every type in Gen 9. As Arken said, and I agree, the extra turns of sun exacerbates difficult matchups. In addition, I think it's a pretty well shared experience where the late game vs. fire is lost because of the extra 1-2 turns that sun brings. It's not like you can't point to how Heat Rock has won many games for fire.

As I stated earlier, covering fire can often feel more like a choice than an optimization, and frankly speaking I think this is the best way to put the situation. I'm not even talking about nonsense like Ability Shield Tran, anyone who even tries bringing that up is either being dishonest or doesn't know what "overcentralization" means in the tiering philosphy. Rather, real things that exist to cover the fire matchup are for example running pokemon with no item on Poison. Itemless Pecharunt, and even consumable item (sitrus/red card/air balloon) Toxapex as a way to counter Ceruledge, are techs brought up when people ask how to improve the fire mu. When you ask why Tyranitar is listed in the VR for Dark, the answer will be "It has Thunder Wave, it has Knock Off, and it's better into Fire than Ting-Lu". Likewise, a big boon of Roaring Moon is how it helps with fire. Frankly I think Roaring Moon is pretty bad on dark otherwise as far as matchup spread goes. The Poison Team I used when I first started doing reqs was a more recent one I made for a solid Fire MU and to better answer Raging Bolt, and the consequence was Flying + Ground both going from playable to loss on preview as well as a more shaky steel. When you see Cee bring Water on the ladder the team is 5 stall mons + Gren, when you see the same type of Water brought in major tours Walking Wake replaces Gren half the time as the team's prep deemed it essential to not lose to Fire. I say all this because I don't think there is really a lack of options to cover Fire, rather I think Fire forces builders to choose between an optimized team that can handle top types like Flying/Dragon/Steel reliably but is shaky on Fire, or a team which is less reliable into those 3 types but wins vs. Fire. Naturally, people decide to cover Flying/Dragon/Steel over Fire, just as people decide to run Ting Lu instead of Tyranitar.

Currently, I think I Lean Ban though I am a bit on the edge. I don't see Heat Rock as healthy to the game in the longrun way things are anyhow. I'll also say that having as much mon diversity as possible is also what I see as one of the core tenants of monotype, considering how big of a limitation Monotype is to begin with. Banning Heat Rock seems not only a decent way to make Fire Healthier, but hopefully prevents people from wanting to get rid of HotPon and Volc as well which have both been brought up many times. Either way, if Heat Rock isn't banned now I fully expect people to turn around and cry about Ogerpon/Volc/Heat Rock once MWP starts and we're reminded of Fire's impact on the tour scene.
 
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Can someone drop their ripple-effect prediction if Heat Rock goes?

-> Like which Pokémon on which types might realistically see more or less usage, or run different sets, if people don’t need to prep as hard for long Sun anymore — if any.

Thanks :Smogjynx:
 
Hi, I finally got my requirements. I'll vote for ban, not because I think Heat Rock makes Fire unstoppable or broken, but because I like neutrality

I think Heat Rock adds turns that benefit Volcarona first, Ogerpon second, and finally Ceruledge, although to some extent, Ceruledge depends on the setup of being safe, having a physical attack, and sword dance

I also recognize that it's not impossible to stop Volcarona or Ogerpon because I've managed it. But it all depends on the team and setup

I don't think Fire is about guaranteed wins or that it's linear. That's actually its playstyle; it's like the defensive nature of Poison or Water stall. Fire is all or nothing offensive.

I thought that when Gouging Fire was removed, Fire teams would decline, but they thrived even without it. I hope Heat Rock will bring balance to the Fire team, just like the other MU teams
 
Can someone drop their ripple-effect prediction if Heat Rock goes?

-> Like which Pokémon on which types might realistically see more or less usage, or run different sets, if people don’t need to prep as hard for long Sun anymore — if any.

Thanks :Smogjynx:

I'll give you my hot take: It doesn't matter what the ripple effect is, or what the effect of a heat rock ban is. If Fire is still a top7 type after a Heat rock ban, people will just want something else banned until Fire's metagame impact becomes irrelevant, and people effectively no longer have to prep for it in the builder.

The truth, as esteemed user hex put it, is that Fire is an offensive type and, I quote "The issue is that offense is good in this meta". That's it. People just don't want an offensive type like Fire to be decent, and that's the reason for this suspect. All the talks about Fire being "brainless" are absolute nonsense--that's just how Fire plays as an offensive type, and is really not that much different from how other offensive archetypes like Rain or Webs Water or Psyspam or Trick Room offense play out in practice. No one honestly thinks Fire is even a top3 type yet we're already suspecting an item that basically only sees use on Fire in high level play.

I really don't think this is a healthy way to approach tiering and it is one of the reasons I am voting DNB.
 
Wallbreaking is cool, heat rock is just a damage boost extender for the most part. Some things get really good with an extra damage boost, but that's also what fire is good at. I don't think Bulkarona is majorly impacted by whether or not the sun is up except for healing, and ogerpon is going to wallbreak just fine with or without it. Ultimately I don't think banning a damage boost is the direction we want to go, even if something on fire is a problem. I'll be voting do not ban because it seems like banning the rock is kind of missing the point.
 
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