Announcement np: Stage 19: Winter Falls (Frosmoth Suspect)

[DugZa]

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Following the October tiering survey, it was apparent that Snow—Ninetales-A and Frosmoth in particular—were major points of contention in the tier, with both Pokemon being scored over 3.5 by the qualified voters. The council opted for a Ninetales-A suspect first given the slightly greater support on the survey but it resulted in landslide do not ban outcome despite the great support on the survey. Over the course of the Ninetales-A suspect test, it was more evident to many that Frosmoth, rather than Ninetales-A, pushed the playstyle over the top. As such, we have decided to follow up immediately with a Frosmoth suspect given the support from both the community and the council.

Frosmoth has easily been one of the most potent offensive Pokemon in the tier, this has been the case even prior to Ninetales-A dropping to PU in October. However, Ninetales-A dropping to PU and significantly buffing it and one of the most splashable checks in (AV) Slowbro-G leaving the tier resulted in Frosmoth emerging as an offensive threat with very limited counterplay. The Substitute sets in particular have proven to be extremely difficult to account for, being able to comfortably setup on Pokemon such as Milotic, Amoonguss, and Palossand. This is further exacerbated by the myriad of different tera types it could run—Ground, Fire, Water, Electric, Rock, Ghost—while also allowing it to deal with would-be checks such as Sandslash-A and Cramorant among others. Its ability Ice Scales gives it more setup opportunities too, and while its physical bulk leaves much to be desired, Snow and Aurora Veil support from Ninetales-A ameliorates this to a significant extent, allowing it to take hits which it would otherwise struggle against.

All that said, Frosmoth does have its flaws. The most noteworthy one being its high reliance on tera to effectively break through teams, making it much more manageable if tera has already been expended elsewhere on the team. Moreover, Substitute Frosmoth is most effective with Leftovers; this forces certain team structures that are highly dependant on keeping hazards off the field and even then, if the player fails to keep Stealth Rocks off the field consistently, Frosmoth is significantly limited in its breaking potential. As mentioned previously, Frosmoth has a lackluster Defense stat, and while Ninetales-A’s support helps with this, it remains vulnerable to physical attacks when Snow is not active. Its mediocre Speed tier doesn’t help either — even at +1, it is slower than most Choice Scarf users in the tier, further highlighting its defensive shortcomings.

All in all, Frosmoth has its fair share of pros and cons; therefore, we have opted for a suspect test and let you, the community, determine whether the Moth stays or goes. The ball is in your court now. Please share your thoughts on Frosmoth's role in the metagame, and if you think it should be banned or not!

• To participate in this suspect test, create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in PU before this suspect test went up, or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played PU before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• You have to reach a COIL of 2800 to get reqs. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 7.
• This suspect test deadline will be on Saturday, November 22nd, 2025 at 11:59 PM (GMT -4).
• Check HERE to see if you have reqs.
• A simple majority (>50%) is required to ban Frosmoth.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or asa or post here!

minimum games required

GXE = Games Required
71 = 343
72 = 173
73 = 116
74 = 88
75 = 71
76 = 59
77 = 51
78 = 45
79 = 41
80 = 37
81 = 34
82 = 31
83 = 29
84 = 27
85 = 25

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Regarding the Tiering Contributor badge

• TC is awarded to those with 10 tiering-related votes across all tiers or 4 tiering-related votes in PU suspect tests.

If you have achieved the above threshold, feel free to PM asa or I with the links to your votes so we can process your request.

 

[DripLegend]

got reqs and currently leaning dnb as I alluded to in the ninetales suspect thread. I think moth is obviously a great mon in the meta and has the toolkit to consistently get setup opportunities throughout the course of a game, but I don't consider it to be the boogeyman autowin cheeser that most deem it to be.

qd + ice scales is pretty potent and while i think lefties qd is the most broken set, it does require a lot of consistent support in the way of hazard control and usually tera on most qd sets to actually steamroll. this mon has so much general cost for each move choice / tera option which makes supporting a mon you'd think would just need reliable removal pretty difficult in practice and builder. i think sub is also kinda insane on it for actually being able to trade for ambi if it gets one off but since it is becoming more common it's harder to keep it up, especially against opposing spdef moth. elec is most common for a reason since bolt beam is op and ground is still in the dex sets for it at least in regard to common teras, ghost is something i've seen a few people mention but nothing that's reared itself too much. in spite of being able to get opportunities often and having nuking potential, it is pretty exploitable defensively and is slow pitting it against common scarfers (zoro, brux- bolded since psyfang breaks veil as well, pawmot) and needing to actually invest in speed to not lose the 1v1 to the fast frailer mons (ambipom, espeon, lazzle, viriz). alongside being weak to prio it's not very difficult to revenge kill consistently without moth needing a decent amount of advantage already (boosted with a sub). outside of this set i believe moth to be well balanced and healthy as a spdef glue and removal option to aid balance, with boots qd sets having way less potential than lefties variants. while i do think moth can toe the line i don't think moth is currently developed enough into this role as a sweeper for me to decide ban instantly, and it has multiple pretty glaring flaws that take away from this role. moth developed a LOT during scl with more people opting to commit to more of the lefties variations, but I don't believe moth is beyond being able to have counterplay develop alongside it.

 

[Dutchum]

Just got reqs. After playing a good amount of games this suspect, I’ve come to the conclusion that Frosmoth is the definition of an unhealthy Pokémon for the tier.

There are simply too few consistent counters to it, which drastically limits teambuilding options. Every team feels forced to include very specific checks or priority users to avoid getting swept. What makes things even worse is the variety of Tera types Frosmoth can run — Ground, Fire, Water, Electric, Rock, or even Ghost — making each game feel random depending on which Tera it chooses, much like Kingambit in OU. It’s extremely hard to prepare for all its possible combinations without compromising the rest of the team.

Frosmoth can also set up almost freely on nearly every special attacker in the tier thanks to Ice Scales, and Aurora Veil support from Ninetales-A even patches up its weaker physical bulk. Once it gets going, there’s very little that can stop it unless you have the perfect counter in position — and that’s not a healthy dynamic for the metagame.

I will be voting BAN on Frosmoth, although I personally believe the real issue lies in Ninetales-A’s Icy Rock, which deserves its own suspect test in the near future. Extending Snow turns and providing free Veil support makes already strong sweepers like Frosmoth even harder to handle, and addressing that could help balance the archetype more effectively in the long run.

 

[Excal]

i'm not getting reqs this time but wanted to voice that, in my opinion, frosmoth is outright broken and should be banned without hesitation. this tier lacks counterplay to a quiver dancing, 125 base special attack pokemon that easily fits tera blast to form strong coverage with ice stab and has obscene special bulk with ice scales.

i don't see moth having to make concessions between its teras; i see moth having high flexibility to use whichever tera it wants. for example, while tera electric is the most popular choice, tera ground is exceptionally strong in defeating balance teams that opt to use their own tera to shut down the set. one such example is this team used by drud in scl, a solid balanced team, which relies on tera steel goodra to check qd moth. the issue is if moth decides to use tera ground instead, his strategy is thwarted and he probably loses, especially if the qd moth has initial support via snow. covering all viable and potential qd moth teras is not a possible ask. most conventional balance teams lose to or have a bad matchup against qd moth with the appropriate tera. because of this, our scl team used tera ice goodra in an attempt to answer frosmoth and not lose to elec/ground. still loses to tera rock tho.

a popular strategy in this metagame is to use avalugg hisui and tera it to handle a variety of physical attackers. these builds are created such that you assume that avalugg will tera every game. it is not difficult to build a team such that the plan is to use frosmoth's tera to flip a match.

as for using priority to brute force through frosmoth, it doesn't work that well. blackglasses sucker zoro + orb mach pawmot are unable to revenge kill frosmoth through a combined effort. this is without tera. additionally, this replay shows that frosmoth does not need to rely on tera to defeat milotic, which seems to be a common point from the dnb side.

hazard control is strong in pu. i think it is quite easy to consistently create scenarios in which sub qd lefties frosmoth has setup opportunity and hazards are not on your side. without articuno galar in the metagame, defog is much less punishable and pu has the issue of stealth rock setters being pretty bad at keeping up. having to deal with spin avalugg, taunt lycanroc offenses, defog hecid/cramorant, espeon, etc is not that easy a task, and all of these pokemon/styles can pair well with frosmoth bc its special bulk makes it splashable on balance and offensive teams.

my opinion overall is that making a balanced team while accounting for both the general metagame and sub qd frosmoth is extremely difficult. this tier has a lot of issues with being able to check slow setup with tera flexibility as well as status, and removing frosmoth from the equation is a significant step in the right direction, especially since alolatales was not banned in the previous suspect.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

My early thoughts is that Frosmoth is extremely broken, because you can't cripple Alolatales enough to remove its boosted physical defense and Quiver Dance lets it outspeed Salazzle at +1 and attempt to sweep. I will be doing my best to get reqs this time and for now I would vote ban. Of course, I'm open to changing my opinion, and outside of snow Frosmoth might be manageable, and it builds upon a weakness when placed on the same team as Alolan Ninetales, but I'd be leaning towards a ban for now.