Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

[Avira]

Cerulege is at times even crazier against fat teams than Roaring Moon was. For all the people who claimed fat became much better after Roaring Moon's ban, Ceruledge can easily stomp past such teams. Outside of outoffensing it with priority, Booster Speed Paradox mons or really fast Choice Scarf users, or exerting enough offensive pressure to prevent it from setting up with a Weak Armor boost, you pretty much need a healthy Tera Fire Zama and a sturdy Ghost-resist that doesn't get deleted by a +2 Poltergeist. It's a very scary mon for sure that has just enough set variety that it can tech for its checks easily since it is so savage with supremely good STAB options (For real, a move like Bitter Blade really has no business being 90 BP).

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Purifying Salt Garganacl: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you can chip down Garg to 57% with Tera Ghost, you basically win even though you don't have Close Combat or Tera Blast Fairy. I am certainly much more afraid of Ceruledge than Ogerpon-Wellspring in the builder if I'm building balance.

Outside of Booster Energy, I guess you can technically have your Cerulege check be itemless if you don't want to to get wrecked by Poltergeist, but it's a significant opportunity cost.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Absurd breakers like ceru coming back is imo a sign that shit might be hitting the fan. Screens HO with deo-S are all over the place and tbh they end up with lead deos praying they win the speed tie with taunt. Its a little obnoxious when you see the same screens/veil HO team. Just some immediate thoughts about ceru taking over the meta(or maybe advocating for light clay ban though its a bit wack in it of itself )

Tldr Lorb ceru is disgustingly strong and you need a super bulky resist to not get bulldozed

ceru is incredibly strong, especially against fat, but i don't think it's an issue. i don't consider the recent rise in screens to be a sign of anything new being broken, just another symptom of the threat-saturation rot at the core of this entire metagame that no one is willing to do anything about anymore. same shit is broken as always

 

[JackRG]

I am certainly much more afraid of Ceruledge than Ogerpon-Wellspring in the builder if I'm building balance.

Lmao do people really think ceruledge is a better breaker than wellspring? It's a threat for sure but it's also a million times easier to tech for than woger. For starters the speed difference is huge, common balance stables can either EV themselves to outrun or already do, like Pechraunt, Gliscor, Hrott, Torn-T, Tusk, Zapdos, Etc. It's also a million times easier to revenge kill with priority, has far less spammable stabs than actually be punished with contact punishing effects like helmet. It also doesn't offer a ton of defensive utility, especially when compared to wellspring.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

ceru is incredibly strong, especially against fat, but i don't think it's an issue. i don't consider the recent rise in screens to be a sign of anything new being broken, just another symptom of the threat-saturation rot at the core of this entire metagame that no one is willing to do anything about anymore. same shit is broken as always

Ok haven't touched this in a bit but I could not let this go. I'm about to go on a tirade, so tl;dr you guys hate offense

Your post demonstrates a breadth of oratory i have not seen in a long time, and even better, in only a few words, and it's one that makes me wish Vert and CTC were still around.
It's short and concise - but also implies you're right about what you're saying. Name a single broken pokemon in OU - that's right there's none. Ever since the Roaring Moon suspect, which btw is getting shouts for a re-test and i personally never agreed with its ban anyway, I've noticed a small, extremely loud minority of people that want to ban something, but that's it. I'm curious if the big difference between qualified voters and the general playerbase on pokemon such as Ogerpon-W can be reflected on posts like this.

You guys think Dragonite and Ogerpon-W are broken. Well, I don't know about you guys, but I hate do-nothing pokemon like rest ting lu and other sitting duck threats and even as a low tier mainer i keep running into bullshit regenerator mons, people that prolong games to 70-80-100 turns via any means necessary even with their 8 pp recovers. If you thought ivy cudgel's crit rate was cheesy, well check out Zapdos... static is brutal, especially for ladder runs. You will hit that Zapdos multiple times no matter what. Alomomola is another sitting duck that very often needs to be killed last and i would personally love to see that bs mon suspect tested.

Offensive mons actually do a far better job at promoting interaction and lessen RNG constraints. Fat balance promotes stall and cheese like screens, veil and grassy seed teams and long games that don't necessarily need to be long. Fat balance works in GSC because that metagame is very well suited for a chess-like environment, same with RBY despite its heavy RNG. In SV where we voted to keep Tera unrestricted and new movepools and pokemon have been added, I believe this is not the metagame where we can apply the same way of thinking, but that's just me.

I've been accused in the past that i'm promoting tiktok attention spans, but let's be real. A game should not last 100 turns by default, in my opinion. Look at older gens, especially SS, but even SM and ORAS with their higher power level thanks to megas can drag on and on. Y'all wanna spam fat teams and ogerpon-w is great into fat so it makes sense to me. There's a reason official nintendo formats have much much shorter games.

 

[Avira]

Lmao do people really think ceruledge is a better breaker than wellspring? It's a threat for sure but it's also a million times easier to tech for than woger. For starters the speed difference is huge, common balance stables can either EV themselves to outrun or already do, like Pechraunt, Gliscor, Hrott, Torn-T, Tusk, Zapdos, Etc. It's also a million times easier to revenge kill with priority, has far less spammable stabs than actually be punished with contact punishing effects like helmet. It also doesn't offer a ton of defensive utility, especially when compared to wellspring.

Ceruledge may be a lot slower, but Ghost is the best attacking type in the game with it being a lot more threatening than Water/Grass, not to mention Fire STAB also being excellent with Fire historically a better attacking type than Water, and Bitter Blade is an excellent move since a 90 Base Power move that heals half of the damage dealt is literally a fantastic offensive tool.

I'm not trying to downplay Ogerpon-Wellspring's strengths, which are high initial power, Ivy Cudgel not being affected by contact moves, and Wellspring having more defensive utility than Ceruledge, but due to Ceruledge's own strengths, such as its better STAB combo, Bitter Blade's being a lifesteal attack, as well as Ceruledge having a customizable Tera Type in addition to Weak Armor, I would rather face an Ogerpon-Wellspring than a Ceruledge.

 

[Finchinator]

Wanna talk a bit about Ceruledge because this mon has become the GOAT in my eyes.


Ceruledge @ Life Orb
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Poltergeist
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak

LO Ceru is one of the best breakers on HO/Screens/etc. This spread seems odd, but with screens up, it lets Ceruledge survive most hits in the tier to farm Weak Armor speed boosts. At +2 it outspeeds Dragapult and Zamazenta. It misses out on creeping booster mons and Scarfers, but most of those dudes can be picked off by Tera Ghost Shadow Sneak. To show you how insane LO Ceru is, look at this calc.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 386-456 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here Moltres, one of the most fraud physical walls in the format, gets sent to the shadow realm by +2 Poltergeist WITHOUT TERA.

Now look at these calcs (post Tera)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 554-653 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 346-407 (107.1 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These are the fattest mons in the tier and Ceruledge is just dropping then like a boom mic. Don’t think Dozo is safe either.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 221-260 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

Having the ability to 2-shot Dozo of all mons is nasty work.

Not only is Ceru good for HO offensively, but also defensively, humbling all the Wisp spammers and being a semi-bulky Fairy resist.

I thought Ceruledge would fall off after rising to OU, but it seems to only get better with Screens and Offenses seeking its aid to punish Balances that are hyper-focused on walling Wellspring/Nite/Zama.

Thoughts?

This set is fantastic. +2 Ghost Sneak can prevent a lot of revenge killing if you’re still +0 speed and Polter just hits so hard that you’re usually forcing progress early if you’re not cleaning late.

The only cautionary tale is that it mandates hyper specific support and only really works on a limited scope of archetypes, but I do feel like the metagame right now is making the most of Ceruledge’s profile.

 

[cat111ca]

I really want to talk about 's potential. It can deal good damage with body press, pivot, set rocks and is practically immune to stealth rock. It's like a diet great tusk that's a steel type instead of ground. I want y'all to think about it's potential

 

[JackRG]

This set is fantastic. +2 Ghost Sneak can prevent a lot of revenge killing if you’re still +0 speed and Polter just hits so hard that you’re usually forcing progress early if you’re not cleaning late.

The only cautionary tale is that it mandates hyper specific support and only really works on a limited scope of archetypes, but I do feel like the metagame right now is making the most of Ceruledge’s profile.

This post outlines LO Ceru's strength and weaknesses very well, and I'm curious to see how to the metagame will adapt to it. Maybe Ting-Lu will start running more physdef to handle this set better, and/or faster revenge killers like Dragapult will experiment with different Teras to be able to live +2 shadow sneak. Having a revenge killer that can live +2 Tera Ghost LO Shadow Sneak is very important, especially on balance. As an example, I've been liking Grasspon on balance already to handle wellspring, and it actually isn't too difficult to EV it to live this:

Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 28 Def / 140 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Spikes

Ceru def isn't broken though lol, and it is honestly one of the better offensive Pokémon designs from this gen, as despite its strengths it has drawbacks like mediocre bulk and a reasonable speed tier, especially when you compare it to the many heinously designed mons from this gen like Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire. If there's any aspect of Ceruledge that is arguably unhealthy/broken, it's screens, but I digress.

Name a single broken pokemon in OU - that's right there's none.

Alomomola is another sitting duck that very often needs to be killed last and i would personally love to see that bs mon suspect tested.

Don't these two statements completely contradict each other?

 

[CooolTrainer]

The meta going back to HO spam is sort of a hummer tbh. Feels like nothing is really changing.

 

[Finchinator]

The meta going back to HO spam is sort of a hummer tbh. Feels like nothing is really changing.

I definitely don’t think the metagame’s progression is this linear or just “HO spam” at all

 

[cat111ca]

The meta going back to HO spam is sort of a hummer tbh. Feels like nothing is really changing.

If you feel that way maybe use !
If you don't feel that way maybe use !
Please use cobalion or talk about y not

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

If you feel that way maybe use !
If you don't feel that way maybe use !
Please use cobalion or talk about y not

my main question here is, what does cobalion have over treads as an early-game lead or utility pivot? treads has a similar speed tier which it can bolster significantly using booster energy, plus rapid spin for opposing hazard leads, knock off for utility sets, and just a generally better anti-lead matchup spread. it also has very similar bulk to cobalion, albeit a little less in the physical department. cobalion's use cases in uu are plentiful, but up here it seems like it would overlap with treads enough that i'm iffy about using it. i can definitely see it doing something here, though—it has a fantastic matchup against non-low-kick gambit, it packs thunder wave and taunt which iron treads notably lacks, and the stab body press gives it a solid damage output without having to invest in an attacking stat. but is that enough? i think this warrants some discussion

 

[Eeveeto]

my main question here is, what does cobalion have over treads as an early-game lead or utility pivot? treads has a similar speed tier which it can bolster significantly using booster energy, plus rapid spin for opposing hazard leads, knock off for utility sets, and just a generally better anti-lead matchup spread. it also has very similar bulk to cobalion, albeit a little less in the physical department. cobalion's use cases in uu are plentiful, but up here it seems like it would overlap with treads enough that i'm iffy about using it. i can definitely see it doing something here, though—it has a fantastic matchup against non-low-kick gambit, it packs thunder wave and taunt which iron treads notably lacks, and the stab body press gives it a solid damage output without having to invest in an attacking stat. but is that enough? i think this warrants some discussion

Leave the Body Press stuff entirely to Zamazenta and use Specs Cobalion. 90 Special Attack might be too low, but unlike Iron Crown you don't have to Tera as often and have Vacuum Wave too vs more offensive teams.

 

[Karxrida]

Leave the Body Press stuff entirely to Zamazenta and use Specs Cobalion. 90 Special Attack might be too low, but unlike Iron Crown you don't have to Tera as often and have Vacuum Wave too vs more offensive teams.

I feel like if you're using Cobalion it's probably due to weird role compression where your team doesn't want Zamazenta for some reason, so Body Press is fine. tbh if I was using Cobalion I'd probably stick with Leftovers since it takes like no damage from SR, plus you can still leverage Taunt and/or T-Wave. Though Vacuum Wave is a cool tech option.

 

[cat111ca]

my main question here is, what does cobalion have over treads as an early-game lead or utility pivot? treads has a similar speed tier which it can bolster significantly using booster energy, plus rapid spin for opposing hazard leads, knock off for utility sets, and just a generally better anti-lead matchup spread. it also has very similar bulk to cobalion, albeit a little less in the physical department. cobalion's use cases in uu are plentiful, but up here it seems like it would overlap with treads enough that i'm iffy about using it. i can definitely see it doing something here, though—it has a fantastic matchup against non-low-kick gambit, it packs thunder wave and taunt which iron treads notably lacks, and the stab body press gives it a solid damage output without having to invest in an attacking stat. but is that enough? i think this warrants some discussion

It isn't ground type. It's able to take ivy cudgels like a champ. It resistaces ice. Has taunt and Twave. And body press for. damage.
If you don't need knock off or rapid spin it's a combination of the best parts of tusk and treads. Also talk about a knock off absorber. It's like if you took kingambit's defensive utility and replace damage with momentum and utility

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

It isn't ground type. It's able to take ivy cudgels like a champ. It resistaces ice. Has taunt and Twave. And body press for. damage.

honestly, these are good points, and i think there's probably some hyper-specific comp out there that would benefit from all these in the same slot. but cobalion is going to have to really stand out to justify using it over tusk, treads, or zama in any areas where any of those overlap, and i don't know whether these tools distinguish it that much, especially with the opportunity cost

If you don't need knock off or rapid spin it's a combination of the best parts of tusk and treads.

Also talk about a knock off absorber. It's like if you took kingambit's defensive utility and replace damage with momentum and utility

i really don't think this comparison makes sense to make, and i don't really think cobalion is that good of a knock absorber. sure, it double resists rocks, but it still takes normal damage from spikes and that's not really something you want in a knock absorber. and the attack boost it gets from tanking a knock doesn't really matter when cobalion's standard damage options are body press and volt switch

 

[Rekka's Backend]

What are some of your favorite Hydrapple spreads or sets? I've been enjoying sticky hold rocky helmet physdef set but I'm curious if any of y'all have workshopped any spreads for more offensive specific comp ones. This is the one I've been enjoying a lot:

Hydrapple @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fickle Beam
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Body Press

Body Press for steel types (team has ghold answers so its less stressful on Hydrapple) or Blissey, Giga Drain for some modest recovery in physhit exchanges (Largely Samu and Tusky tho), with enough HP to live a 2X ice hit from Tusk that isn't booster attack. I prefer Fickle beam because I like to leave it in to take a hit or two and the SPA loss from Draco hurts a bit.

 

[cat111ca]

I don't get it. I understand that rapid spin is a major reason these are good. But there are teams who don't need more hazard control. If you use for example.

 

[soupeater]

I don't get it. I understand that rapid spin is a major reason these are good. But there are teams who don't need more hazard control. If you use for example.

Gweezing Teams almost always benefit from some form of additional hazard control, due to the fact that they're usually built around pokemon/sets that rely on it and the fact that some mons threaten Gweezing too much for it to defog into them.

Also theres the "If you don't need knock off" part, which like, knock off is just one of the best moves in the game. Even if you don't use it with Hazard Stack, removing leftovers/AV/Rocky Helmet/Covert Cloak/etc is still an extremely easy way to make progress.

 

[Estradiol5mg]

I really want to talk about 's potential. It can deal good damage with body press, pivot, set rocks and is practically immune to stealth rock. It's like a diet great tusk that's a steel type instead of ground. I want y'all to think about it's potential

I like coballion a lot the main problem with it is imo the ground weakness in its role, it makes it a bit harder to send it as a rocks lead with lando t, tusk, and glim around maybe balloon or tera grass could alleviate that but atp just use a lando t, the steel type is very nice for glim, but it struggles a fuck ton into birds plus corv cause of the fire weakness lack of electric resist and fighting weakness, additonally its pivoting move being volt switch doesnt help if it was uturn it would be a lot better tho

 

[Aminal]

I'm not jumping at the chance to use Cobalion here either, but we're only talking about it as a defensive mon, where I agree its completely overshadowed by the P-Donphans. But I think that it has value as an offensive mon: switch into a Knock Off or Kowtow Cleave, and all of a sudden +1 off 90 base attack with good bulk and decent speed isn't too bad. Unfortunately, its only good physical coverage move is Stone Edge, but it does get access to Taunt to shut down stall, T-Wave, Roar, the aforementioned Stealth Rock, and Quick Attack (lol). With a Booster Energy, the P-Dons have better offensive stats (in fact, 0 Atk EV GT > 252 Atk Jolly Cobalion), but Cobalion can instead come in throughout the battle and soak up Knock Offs and hit back a little hard and pretty fast.

With all that said, I tried it out with 252/252 Jolly with Stone Edge and Taunt and even on the lower ladder it is ass. 90 base attack does not cut it in this day and age and there are far too many powerful fighting and ground types around for a player to be switching this guy in and out without Boots or Leftovers. It also just cannot do anything against most common Knock Off users, such as Great Tusk/Gliscor (too bulky), Ogerpon (usually outsped by it), Meow (U-turns out), etc.

 

[Achohermano]

In my honest opinion, sadly, Cobalion has nothing to do in this metagame. You need BP to do some damage, and then you need to choose between Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Roar and, maybe, as Aminal said above me, Stone Edge. Pretty cool on paper, some role compression and while you dont have the best of matchups aganist Tusk, Lando, Treads, Zapdos even with Stone Edge, or Gliscor, and you're dead weight aganist Sun, you're ok aganist Gambit. You can actually tank a hit from Woger and cripple it with Para, same with IVal.

However, this Pokémon does NOTHING in front of Hatterene, which a top 10 Pokémon both in viability and usage right now. You need to somehow also fit a steel move there, and if you're doing that, either Ting Lu / Tusk sets up rocks in your face, or you can't phaze / Para enemy Pokémon, which was the whole point of using Cobalion in the first place.

 

[Estradiol5mg]

Fun set i have been running on webs is

Darkrai @ Choice Specs
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb

Specs modest rai's calcs are fucking disgusting like it is insane that this can ohko a multiscale dnite, 2hko into clodsire, this mon nukes everything besides like av alo, blissey and toxapex its a bit ridiculous

 

[cat111ca]

In my honest opinion, sadly, Cobalion has nothing to do in this metagame. You need BP to do some damage, and then you need to choose between Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Roar and, maybe, as Aminal said above me, Stone Edge. Pretty cool on paper, some role compression and while you dont have the best of matchups aganist Tusk, Lando, Treads, Zapdos even with Stone Edge, or Gliscor, and you're dead weight aganist Sun, you're ok aganist Gambit. You can actually tank a hit from Woger and cripple it with Para, same with IVal.

However, this Pokémon does NOTHING in front of Hatterene, which a top 10 Pokémon both in viability and usage right now. You need to somehow also fit a steel move there, and if you're doing that, either Ting Lu / Tusk sets up rocks in your face, or you can't phaze / Para enemy Pokémon, which was the whole point of using Cobalion in the first place.

To me one bad matchup in the top 10 and 2 great matchups is good enough. Also, because cobalion is a steel type and never used you can use a steel move and until it uses it the opponent thinks it doesn't.

 

[Estradiol5mg]

To me one bad matchup in the top 10 and 2 great matchups is good enough. Also, because cobalion is a steel type and never used you can use a steel move and until it uses it the opponent thinks it doesn't.

I just dont see what the point of this mon is when treads exists, like 1 has way better mu spread, 2 can do stuff into hat, 3 also can pivot, 4 can destroy hat, 5 treads has better mu's into birds just typing wise