Resource SV LC Viability Rankings

[Winterbub]

over time, snowshrew can find more opportunities to come in and spin or do damage. that’s the main argument, not that quaxly/snowshrew can win more 1v1s in a vacuum. even if quaxly comes in safely and threatens an rko, it doesn’t do enough damage to punish switches.

I'm not arguing that quaxly can come in more, I'm saying quaxly is irreplaceable on offense structures built around it and that those structures are viable. I think overall shrew and toed are better on more teams which is why i'm not arguing quaxly is better overall or that it should be higher than either of them

 

[emptywisdom]

Fighting Resist VR

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S

• 25 15 13 is premier bulk
• poison type strongly prefers grass type in a meta with 2 great ground types
• spore is extremely good, game warping status. best sleep user
• access to regen for synergy with foo, let's foongus be more active throughout the entire game

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/  B

• fairy type. walls foo, baits in poisons, threatens vull
• intimidate, twave, thief cover utility needs in builder
• great physical coverage in the elemental punches, eq, fairy stab

• fallen titan, lost access to knock off, scald
• water type is excellent defensive coverage
• relatively fast for its class

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// C

• Decent utility options in wisp, pain split, thief
• Excellent phys bulk
• 2 good abilities in Neutralising Gas and levitate. N Gas allows koffing to deny mienfoo regen

• Glare + knock off + 16 speed
• Offensive, temporary fight resist

• Doesn't actually resist fight.
• Most threatening mon in the tier. Better suited for other roles.
• Weak armor allows vull to outspeed and threaten anything, uturn sponge

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Offensive Pivot VR

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S

• threatens physical and special damage, stab knock off, heat wave
• weak armor provides elite speed tier 26-32
• extremely bulky, 23 15 13 with minimal invest
• air slash 30% flinch emulates rock slide in ADV

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/A

• Huge HJK base power threatens most, makes fight resist almost mandatory
• Regenerator + Uturn synergy
• Top tier knock off user

• best electric immune. Invalidates most electrics
• Threatens entire tier neutrally

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//B

• fastest native speed.
• Gen 2 coverage, fire ice punch, psychic, knock
• Baits in grounds + chou

• Hurricane deals massive damage, access to knock uturn
• Very frail. Hard to position without other pivots

• no Pivot move
• Comes in on common poison or dark move and threatens big dmg

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Defensive Pivot VR

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S

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/ A

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///B

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 /C

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Special Wallbreaker VR

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 S

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// A

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//B

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C

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Physical Wallbreaker VR

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/ S

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/A

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/ B

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//C

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Stealth Rock Setter VR

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/S

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/ A

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/B

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C

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Hazard Removal VR

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 S

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 A

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/B

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C

 

[Potatozq]

Screens + Turtwig is underrated. I realize that most of these posts are fairly old, but it's even better now than it was a year ago.
It gets value nearly every game. Can't crit through screens means at least one free Shell Smash most games.
It's bulky enough to live most hits and can even set up on tier king Mienfoo.
+2 Giga Drain, Earth Power, Tera Blast Fire sweeps most teams that already have damage on Mienfoo and Vullaby.
Can even get +4 sometimes if you have teammates that can lower the enemies offensive stats while you already have reflect up (teammate's intimidate, parting shot)

Very surprised that it is not used more.

 

[JuanSG]

hi

Vullaby

Please, someone explain me why you all think this Pokemon is top 2. I just cant get it. Im not saying is a bad Pokemon but im sure is overrated.

1. Vullaby invites every rocker in the metagame (mudbray, tink, glimmet, sandshrew alola) to come in and set up rocks. This is really really bad considering vullaby its weak to rocks.
2. It just kills itself. Weak to rocks + brave bird recoil and your vullaby is gone
3. It isnt really fast without triggering its ability which sucks because if you switch to take a physical attack you will probably take rocks damage and your vullaby will be at low health. Then you are forced to roost while exposed to a physical attack at -1 defense or attack and die to recoil.
4. With torchic ban, i found myself running more tera steels that vullaby doesnt want to face.
5. It is checked by A LOT of things in the meta game. Tink, glimmet, mudbray, sandshrew, Elekid, chinchou, shellos, any tera steel, shellder can set up on it, mareanie is not bad vs it, mienfoo doesnt die at full, pawniard (fakemon), snubull (underrated)
6. I dont think nasty plot sets are bad. They can sweep easily if the opponent didnt expect it. But even at +2 it fails to 1hko things and relies on flinches to win or a very good position at late game where everything is low. (Pretty mid, there are better late game sweepers anyways)

Guys i really really think you are all brainwashed into thinking vullaby is top 2 pokemon in the tier. Learn to build please.

Gothita

Amazing Pokemon right now in my opinion. Torchic was a Pokemon that gothita couldnt trap, and now its gone! Your team suffers vs diglett alola or elekid? Trap them (tera blast ground helps). You want to trap foongus and mareanie for mienfoo? Easy trap. You need help with [redacted], TRAP!

Mareanie

I think its good. Use the offensive set please. This pokemon has less switch ins than vullaby lmao and its actually decent defensively.

Grookey

I think this mon is underexplored right now. Its good vs diglett alola that might cause problems in the builder. Also smokes shellder, fuck it.

Snubbull

Another underrated mon in my opinion. Its good vs mienfoo and vullaby. Can absorb knock offs and its really good vs offensive teams. I think it NEEDS a hazard control teammate like toed since it lacks an efficient recovery move. Toed and snubull sinergize pretty well. This is a team with this core that felt solid during tests. https://pokepast.es/31984870e4afcde3

 

[emptywisdom]

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Anything unlisted is because i do not have sufficient experience to rank them.

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S

Foo

Talking about why this mon is good feels like beating a dead horse. Regen, Good kit, Good stats. 95+% usage rate. Fighting type is an incredible defensive type for neutral hits.

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A+

Vull

Less important with torchic gone. Still pretty good with its set variety and raw offensive aura. Defensive sets are underexplored.

Bray

The best vull answer. Decent rocks mon. Roar is under utilised. One of the hardest mons to OHKO.

Foon

Sleep is really good. Best foo check.

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A

Dig-A

Life orb is extremely hard to switch into. Only downside is frailty.

Kid

Fastest native mon. Force opp switches: volt switch. Access to knock + good mixed coverage

Glim

Decent vull check ignoring tera blast ground. Best hazard setter; toxic spikes are pretty good right now.

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A-

Goth

Trapping will always be strong. Held back by its speed stat and its also kinda weak.

Stunky

Threatens everything. Trades 1 for 1.5 usually. Weak to dig-a

Shellder

The best win condition besides Regen. The bag of tricks makes for guesswork, but its well developed so many techs arent very surprising.

Chou

Best Elekid answer. Pivots well against some teams.

Snowshrew

Very compelling sweeper, lost its utility options.

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B+

Mare

Offensive is pretty cool.

Tink

Decent utility but invites in ground types, specifically dig-a which is hard to switch into.

Grook

Shellder check + pressures foon and vull. Good ground answer.

Dog

Very strong but limited to scarf 5050s for the most part

Snub

Another underrated mon in my opinion. Its good vs mienfoo and vullaby. Can absorb knock offs and its really good vs offensive teams. I think it NEEDS a hazard control teammate like toed since it lacks an efficient recovery move. Toed and snubull sinergize pretty well.

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B

Toed

Matchup fish for hazard stack.

Gull

Threatens much of the meta. Accuracy is a pita.

Pinch

Not as versatile at trapping as goth, plus its slower.

Horua

The best ghost. Illusion mindgames are annoying and can cause imperfect play.

Ches

Matchup fish for foongus.

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B-

Los

Lost its torchic matchup.

Floon

Severely underexplored.

Timb

Can sometimes steal games. Good prio.

Imp

Enables so much BS.

Wag

Still threatens most of the meta with a 2HKO.

Gimmi

Enables BS but worse.

Axew

Still potent under the right conditions

Cino

underexplored

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After some thinking i rearranged things.

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3(+1)

Foon

With the reinvention of Grookey: Foongus finds another way to enter the game.

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4(-1)

Bray

Bray suffers from Monkey.

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567(+1)

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8(+2)

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9(-4)

Dig-a

With fighting move Elekid and Monkey running around, dig a stocks have fallen.

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10(-1)

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16(+3)

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17(-1)

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18(+1)

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19(-2)

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21(+2)

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23(-2)

 

[emptywisdom]

Hey LC!
New VR time. These are in order by how viable they are.

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S

A+

A

A-

B+

B

B-

C+

C

C-

D+

D

D-

 

[Éric]

hi, eridbst here with some svlc vr takes.

ive noticed theres way too many B- rank mons, and only one B rank mon (Shellos). i think some of the B- mons are quite better than the rest, and on par with Shellos, so i wanna argue for their rises in the vr.

i see these two pokemon very similarly. ghost stab in this tier is, like in all other, incredibly difficult to punish, and these two are the best mons we have at spamming it. the key difference between them is that Gimmighoul is more of an explosive breaker, utilizing life orb, and Zorua is more of a cleaner, using choice scarf sets, but they end up doing the same thing: spamming Shadow Ball. they both have had success in tournament player, even in the highest level that is considered to be SCL (replays below). Because of this ease to spam their STAB move, they both are, to me, easier to use and win with, and thus a step above, than the rest of the breakers in their current rank (namely Dewpider, Doduo and Salandit).

replays

SLC replays:
lokifan vs jake
laroxyl vs eniigma

My own tournament replays:
ssnl vs icypenguin
ssnl vs rect

Salandit is similar to Gimmighoul. It is a fast breaker with a good STAB, as demonstrated by now banned Magby and Torchic. It is more flawed than them tho, because it is slower (which for a Life Orb rocks weak mon like this, it is a huge deal). People are really down on this mon, claiming it "never does anything" and basically that it's not worth it. I do not see it as that: Fire STAB is as good as ever, teams still struggle to slot in resistances, and Salandit is very capable of running away with 2-3 kills per game. Same deal as with Torchic really. Also, as an upside, Salandit does have a wider variety of moves to choose, with a lock only being Fire Blast, and being able to use all of Sludge Wave, Tera Fire Overheat, Tera Blast Ground/Psychic, Knock Off, Protect and Will-o-Wisp, depenind on your teams' needs. Here are two SCL replays of Salandit destroying: wail vs onraider and envy vs edgy.

also grouping these two because they fill a similar niche as well. Both are alternative Mienfoo checks to the way more common Mareanie and Foongus, but both of them have huge upsides that differentiate them from those two, with those upsides being their abilites for both of them. Both are Mienfoo checks that beat the poisons, with Koffing doing so via Neutralizing Gas Fire Blast + Thunderbolt, and Larvesta doing so with U-Turn + Flare Blitz. Both add burn support for the team, which can be incredibly beneficial if you are running setup offense, with the likes of Shellder and NP Vullaby. However, both require higher amounts of support, and thus they only fit in more specific teams. Larvesta needs perfect hazard removal, and probably a Gothita, and Koffing needs a lot of offense to not fall back. They are a step above their defensive counterparts in B- (Greavard, Munchlax, Chespin) in the way they give more to the team, are always capable of contributing and dont lose to the things theyre supposed to check as much. Tournament replays for both: me in LCWC vs elfuseon and envy vs wail for scl

 

[bleahey]

i see these two pokemon very similarly. ghost stab in this tier is, like in all other, incredibly difficult to punish, and these two are the best mons we have at spamming it. the key difference between them is that Gimmighoul is more of an explosive breaker, utilizing life orb, and Zorua is more of a cleaner, using choice scarf sets, but they end up doing the same thing: spamming Shadow Ball. they both have had success in tournament player, even in the highest level that is considered to be SCL (replays below). Because of this ease to spam their STAB move, they both are, to me, easier to use and win with, and thus a step above, than the rest of the breakers in their current rank (namely Dewpider, Doduo and Salandit).

replays

SLC replays:
lokifan vs jake
laroxyl vs eniigma

My own tournament replays:
ssnl vs icypenguin
ssnl vs rect

I wanted to back Eric’s point here and emphasize a key interaction that makes these mons even more viable: shadow tag. Most life orb mons in the tier such as salandit and Wingull are Vulnerable to being revenged by Gothita. Gimmighoul and Zorua can get around this issue entirely, adding some value to bulky builds like ttm where you can’t afford to get your wincon trapped.

I also had some success with niche gimmighoul Teras like Fire and I can dig up some more replays if necessary, but I’m a big fan of these guys in the current meta.

also re: koffing, that guy farms shellder and I won pretty easily bc of this last round of lcwc. It also beats gothita so I think these are really just highlighting anti meta picks that work well right now in the same manner that chespin and shellos were able to move up in chic/dig meta and they should be rated slightly higher.

 

[Colin]

My opinions:

to B+ from B-
, , to B from B-

Larvesta has shown to be a very effective Mienfoo counter, in spite of its need for hazard removal which can be unreliable. When combined with Gothita support, stab U-turn + wisp + flare blitz has almost no switches, and is by far the most threatening way to reclaim momentum from Mienfoo. Flame Body burns aren't as reliable as they are in other LC tiers due to Larvesta needing to win quickly, but they still provide extra opportunities that can be game breaking.
The ghost types are very flawed and by themselves specific, but their presence forces teams to be built with them in mind. I think in general, they are great at taking advantage of Vullaby but somewhat poor into Stunky. Drifloon is a great and very under explored offense threat and spinblocker, while Gimmighoul-roaming is great on bulky offense to destroy other balances if their speed tiers are too slow. Zorua-hisui has scarf sets and a few utility or setup variants, but isn't quite as consistent yet.

to A+ from A-, to A+ from S

I think both dark types are excellent right now, with their own important strengths and weaknesses. Vullaby is a peerless breaker and nothing replicates weak armor, but in general Hyper Offense and electric types can limit its impact. Stunky is more predictable, but the immediate speed tier combined with good bulk make trading with Stunky using fast threats a nightmare. Terablast Ground Stunky is a really effective lure against Tinkaton + Toedscool + Mareanie team comps, and is a great way to limit Elekid in endgames or deny Glimmet the opportunity to set rocks. Compared to Vullaby, stunky loses less because stabs + sucker are enough for reliable effectiveness. Stunky team comps are also more easily able to fit other fast attackers, which are more reliable than going for only 1 speed control option. I don't think Vullaby is much worse than before, but it isn't necessary to use in 90+% of teams, unlike Mienfoo.

, to B from B+

These picks are useful at times, but aren't reliable defensively or offensively against any guaranteed role (rocker, foo, dark, speed) and so can be gated out of opportunities to attack. They also win slower than other picks, because they have more counters or are slow, depending on sets. Grookey isn't reliable vs ground types because it doesn't contest hazards, and is vulnerable to coverage while Growlithe is weak to Stealth Rock and is easily scouted with Regenerator picks.

 

[Fille]

Agree with Colin on Stunky, agree on Vullaby on the terms that it's the standard max/max tera ghost set. Personally have found that set to be around A to A+ for a while, but I think slightly more bulk (think 16 defense) goes a long way without diminishing much of the offensive presence of Vull, and an actually viable defensive tera like Steel, Dragon or Poison to be more beneficial for Vull, even on WA sets. I'd argue that is still an S-tier mon, especially with how easy it makes playing the game for less experienced players while adding nuance that the players yearn for, and of course in the flexibility of that last slot being able to click Defog, U-Turn, Iron Defense or Heat Wave.

On Grookey tho I think that Colin is hugely mistaken. While his definition of a "guaranteed role" would indeed leave room for Grookey to be weak into the Rocker (Think Glimmet or Tinkatink being the bad options to face, albeit I'll get back to this kind of guaranteed role argument), it will always be great into the a different guaranteed role on most other competent builders teams; The Electric Immunity. This is a role that has been guaranteed on most good teams in almost every tier since the introduction of Volt Switch in gen 5. The viable Electric Immunities in the tier are as following; Chinchou, Mudbray, Toedscool and Diglett-A. A bulky Grookey can come in on, and force out, all of these 4 multiple times across a single game, either forcing them out or forcing a tera to get through Grookey. Furthermore, once Grookey is done, even if it hasn't outlived the Ground Types (If there are multiple), it'll still have managed to turn every other mon on its team into a Ground resist for the next few turns, thanks to Grassy Terrain. In the current meta, where Diglett-A is one of the best "speed" mons, Mudbray is the best Rocker, and Groundspam as a whole is one of the easiest team structures to play, Grookey doesn't struggle to find useful niches on teams. Furthermore, it baits in mons like Foongus and Vullaby, forcing a Knock on them if needed for future breakers to get through them. Furthermore it can alleviate pressure off of your own Ground Types, as it can act as an Electric Check not really caring about a Volt Switch in the same vein a Foongus wouldn't care about Volt Switch; It heals it back up with Grassy Terrain. While the healing is not as strong as Foongus', it's still a good enough to turn an 8hko into a 12hko. This leaves the Ground types able to more safely take on their roles as breakers and / or Vullaby Checks, without having to consider Elekid / Chinchou endgames as well.

Main thing for me personally though is its potency in denying Shellder sweeps without having to save a Defensive tera for it. Grookey actively denies the 3 strongest offensive Shellder teras being Rock, Water and Stellar, aka the 3 that can get it through its normal defensive checks, with a simple Grassy Glide, allowing for tera to be used offensively on a different mon without having to worry as much as usual about a tera Shellder in the back. While it still doesn't hard deny random defensive teras on Shellder, these teras will have a harder time getting through mons like Mienfoo, Mareanie and Tinkatink as there's no way for them to OHKO them through Eviolite bar Tera Blast, which depending on type still would not want to face a Grookey. There are certainly Shellder variations that can get through Grookey, but that's just a consequence of Tera being broken in a format like Little Cup. Grookey is still, without a doubt, the most reliable Shellder check in the entire meta aside from good teras.

Now onto Colins guaranteed roles; First of all, with his list I'm assuming "Dark" means either Vullaby or Stunky, thus eliminating from doubling up Stunky as "Speed". Stunky would realistically be the only "Speed" mon that Grookey dislikes, bar Salandit once that pops off properly, as Grookey has a favourable matchup into Diglett, Elekid, (Checks notes) ... Wiglett? Meowth..? Wingull is an iffy case, as it is for everything, since technically nothing wants to tank a Hurricane, and also everything fears its tera, but also Wingull doesn't want to tank a Grassy Glide so on lead matchup it's not great but it's still unhappy with tanking a Grassy Glide (Especially if Grookey teras, or Wingull tera'd, but eh). Even if it ends up being a Darkspam team, Grookey still denies the most common teras from Stunky and Vullaby breaking through too hard, as neither of them wants to take Glides or Bullet Seeds after teras, and it also easily forces knocks on both of them, allowing for easier counterplay from other mons (Or even just a U-Turn pivot on Vull to force WA Def drop or Rocks Chip even). Stunky and Vullaby are, without a doubt, the most annoying mons for Grookey to face, but also ones it should have teammates that can reliably take on. Outside of them, Grookey does well into the top "Speed" mons mentioned and most scarfers due to their lack of Eviolite bulk, and while there are certainly structures where Grookey wouldn't be the most useful, the healing your own team gets through Grassy Terrain (if a team is structured so), denying Earthquakes from opposing mons and its general bulk allowing it to pivot and knock and provide lategame priority is still valuable even into standard structures with no specific targets for Grookey. However, in most Matchups, it'll always have a relvant target, as most meta structures are either Mudbray balance or TTM aka Toedscool, and even with none of these, the chances of there being at least one of Elekid, Diglett-A, Shellder or Chinchou are extremely high as I think I haven't seen a single team ran in LCWC without any of those 6 pokemon on the team, making it a reliable defensive piece against a more or less guaranteed slot on a team, despite them not neccesarily fitting into one of your normed slots.

3rd one, on contesting hazards, that part is kind of annoying I must agree. There are easy solutions to this, as it pairs well with Vullaby, which with Grookey being a natural pivot means that Vullaby doesn't neccesarily need to run U-turn and can hence run Defog, hazards aren't an issue anymore, but even so that is indeed an annoying part. However, we don't just drop a mon because it allows hazards, as the only reliable defensive spinner in the tier is Toedscool, and while being somewhat in direct competition with it as a defensive Grass type sucks, Toedscools 4x weakness to Ice leaves it in a tough spot into Ice Punch Elekid and Ice Beam Chinchou. Furthermore, Grookey has the ability to force out mons even on possible 2HKOs, as Grassy Glide acts as a last resort action that the frailer, faster mons do not want to tank unless absolutely neccessary, meaning that a Toedscool getting 2HKOd by Iron Head Diglett is far more likely than a Grookey being so. Grookey being able to deny these mons from making further progress after its death (And while its alive for its teammates) through Grassy Terrain denying Earthquake is also one of the main reasons to use Grookey over Toed, as some teams value that more than compressing the Spin onto the Grass slot.

(My personal guaranteed slots do not include a "dark" btw)

Relevant Calcs

I'd post them here if the calc allowed me to copy the text without copying the entire fucking webpage, but tldr

Vswitch from Elekid does 3hp
Chinchou Ice Beam does 10 hp.

Cliffnotes;

- While not adhering to Colins "guaranteed slots", Grookey still has a gauranteed niche in a meta where Mudbray/Elekid are A+, DigA/Shellder are A, and Chinchou/Toedscool are A-, while also having bulk to tank hits from other common mons and force progress with Knock, Pivoting and strong priority.

- His "guaranteed" roles are entirely subjective still, and Grookey will have guaranteed value into staple "guaranteed" roles like "Electric Immunity" (aka Grounds and Chinchou).

- Grookey still has value into his guaranteed roles like "Speed" through strong priority, decent bulk, and pivoting / knocking switch-ins.

- Grookey allows for counterplay to the offensively strongest Shellder sets, allowing for offensive Teraplay on the Grookey users side without having to fear a Shellder randomly claiming with a tera that KOs Mare/Foo/Tink stuff through Eviolite.

- Grookey boosts its teammates' defensive capabilities by denying Earthquakes, one of the top 5 most common moves in the tier.


Now it is a more passive mon than say Mienfoo / Vullaby, mons that inhabits a similar in Knocking and pivoting, and it does indeed stand in competition with Toedscool which does have reliable hazard removal, but we're not arguing for an A tier mon here, we're arguing for a mon to stay B+ or drop, and it's highkey more relevant in the current meta than the other B Rank mon aka Shellos, and hence another reason why I think it should stay B+ for now.


NOW, having gone a bit aggressively in on Colins grookey take, I would like to round out the post by saying I agree on his takes on the Ghost type breakers, as well as Larvesta. I hadn't even considered the Gothita aspect of the ghosts, but as an avid Salandit enjoyer I do see great merrits to that interaction.

Relevant Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2433756919-4b1wq6ai5igp3u4yn2mksqels3qsevcpw?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-868911

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2457856980-9d8tpo0j7kwgewrhapbymjdpomu08glpw (Grookey would've won me if I didn't choke)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2457867084-cw3mtcb0mf2up8r189l6ryqymn9t6agpw?p2