Metagame USUM Pure Hackmons

[Guysmash]

This is my first post here. I decided it would be a good idea a week ago at 10 pm to get a bunch of high ladder (or formerly high ladder) people's favorite set and put it in a box in alphabetical order. This is the box so far: https://pokepast.es/06652a0857b2db46. If I haven't received yours, and you wouldn't mind sending it, I would greatly appreciate it. Yes, I have been told some guy did this a while ago. That doesn't really demotivate me or anything. I have a bunch of alts, but right now I'm using HartetheWooperIV to combat ladder decay. If you do want to send yours, do it there. Thank you in advance. If I get a respectable amount of sets and it doesn't just end up being another failed project, I'll post the finished thing here too.

If you're interested in my set by any means here it is :

Guysmash (Gengar-Mega) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- U-turn
- Ice Beam

 

[Rain]

i'm here for your peoples opinion on the idea of mixed attacking primal groudon https://pokepast.es/12c947e0ec000406 and take this information as you like but i do want honest opinions and maybe to try it but anyway your local mbee user is out

when analyzing a set you want to think about what role it can serve. To be specific, what does it do over other things? Usually you do that while team buliding because you can't play with a single set, and building a team is gonna be your ultimated goal. So for this one you will wanna think about what does this set possibly do. You have magic guard as ability, giving you the ignorance on hazards damage which is neat, the ignorance on recoil of mind blown and flare blitz which is also neat. But the speed of pdon is slow, which means it can't consistently target on offensive mons and move first. on the other hand as a 4a wall breaker it's not really sufficient, as you have a lack of power(252 Atk Life Orb Groudon-Primal Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 110-131 (26.8 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO). The role of mguard here isn't really used to its full potential as ignoring innards out is really huge, and groudon is absolutly capble of doing a good job of pursuiting innards. If you want a magic guard sweeper, remember the sash that ignores hazards is usually your most important niche over huge powered ones. You can find some sets in the thread dm me on smogon if you need help with that.

 

[ItzEmanBoss]

This is my first post here. I decided it would be a good idea a week ago at 10 pm to get a bunch of high ladder (or formerly high ladder) people's favorite set and put it in a box in alphabetical order. This is the box so far: https://pokepast.es/06652a0857b2db46. If I haven't received yours, and you wouldn't mind sending it, I would greatly appreciate it. Yes, I have been told some guy did this a while ago. That doesn't really demotivate me or anything. I have a bunch of alts, but right now I'm using HartetheWooperIV to combat ladder decay. If you do want to send yours, do it there. Thank you in advance. If I get a respectable amount of sets and it doesn't just end up being another failed project, I'll post the finished thing here too.

Not necessarily a top player but I would say I’m pretty good so here’s my favorite set:

Beedrill-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Pursuit
- Spectral Theif
- Defog

 

[ZeldaFan1]

This is my first post here. I decided it would be a good idea a week ago at 10 pm to get a bunch of high ladder (or formerly high ladder) people's favorite set and put it in a box in alphabetical order. This is the box so far: https://pokepast.es/06652a0857b2db46. If I haven't received yours, and you wouldn't mind sending it, I would greatly appreciate it. Yes, I have been told some guy did this a while ago. That doesn't really demotivate me or anything. I have a bunch of alts, but right now I'm using HartetheWooperIV to combat ladder decay. If you do want to send yours, do it there. Thank you in advance. If I get a respectable amount of sets and it doesn't just end up being another failed project, I'll post the finished thing here too.

Very cool.

However...

Something like this will inevitably create a sea of one-line posts just saying one set. If you want to suggest a Mon, I would highly recommend doing it via the Pokemon Showdown room, or maybe deleting the comment after the set has been added. I can already see 3 different one-line posts because of this, and it will almost certainly grow into more.

(Also how could you not put TASTE THE PAINBOW as one of the mons, I am disappointed)

 

[Hyundai 25-L 7 Forklift]

Hello, here to show off a set I really like



Xerneas @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Shell Smash
- Destiny Bond
- Searing Sunraze Smash
- Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom

It gets a quick smash and gets a Prankster Destiny Bond. It can also hit hard with Searing Sunraze Smash and Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom. Why would you use this over Innards? I don't know but it looks cooler.

 

[Guysmash]

As you may have noticed, I kinda stopped usum PH for a while, just saying hi here and there and such
However I'd like to comeback but as playing today I realised 3 things : I'm bad now, the meta has changed (and MMX spam is still fine). This is why I'm aksing if anyone could make a small summary of how did the meta evolve

 

[Ransei]

Hey apologies it's been an incredibly long while since the viability rankings was previously updated, but today we have an official update on the viability rankings based on new changes and discoveries made throughout 2025, fit to adjust accordingly to the modern state of the metagame. As always, feel free to look over these and discuss rankings. Always be civil and to not slander others over the ranks.

The viability rankings have been overhauled. There is no longer a Wonder Guard Viability Rankings in the format. It was deemed unnecessary after noticing teams, particularly hyper offense, being very well capable of having consistency even without any Wonder Guards within the team. Each Pokemon are ranked individually with all their possible abilities factored in. The abilities listed are three at most to shorten the list, but are not exclusively the abilities they may run in plenty of cases. Enjoy!

Viability Order: S to A-

S Rank
S
Chansey (Imposter, Innards Out)
Blissey (Imposter, Innards Out)

S-
Mewtwo-Mega-X (Huge Power, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard)
Kartana (Huge Power, Wonder Guard, Magic Guard)
Mewtwo-Mega-Y (Psychic Surge, No Guard, Protean)

A Rank
A+
Slaking (Huge Power, Harvest)
Gengar-Mega (Parental Bond, No Guard)
Zygarde-Complete (Prankster, Magic Bounce)

A Rank
Audino-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Groudon-Primal (Magic Bounce, Shadow Tag, Huge Power)
Regigigas (Huge Power)
Meloetta (Wonder Guard)

A- Rank
Arceus (Wonder Guard, Harvest)

Gyarados-Mega (Wonder Guard, Magic Guard, Shadow Tag)

Slowbro-Mega (Wonder Guard, Prankster, Fur Coat)
Celesteela (Wonder Guard, Prankster)
Ferrothorn (Wonder Guard)
Kyogre-Primal (Wonder Guard)

Rayquaza-Mega (Triage, Mold Breaker, Shadow Tag)

Alphabetical Order: B+ to E

B Rank
B+
Deoxys-Attack (Magic Guard, Huge Power, Psychic Surge)
Deoxys-Speed (No Guard, Mold Breaker)

Diancie-Mega (Pixilate, Magic Guard)
Ho-Oh (Wonder Guard, Prankster)
Hoopa-Unbound (Wonder Guard)

Lopunny-Mega (No Guard)
Muk-Alola (Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker)
Pheromosa (Huge Power, No Guard, Comatose)
Scizor-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Steelix-Mega (Prankster, Fur Coat, Magic Bounce)
Yveltal (Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Harvest)

B
Aerodactyl-Mega (No Guard, Shadow Tag)
Doublade (Fur Coat, Magic Bounce, Sturdy)
Giratina-Origin (Innards Out, Harvest)

Greninja-Ash (Wonder Guard, No Guard, Comatose)
Lunala (Innards Out, No Guard, Adaptability)
Heatran (Wonder Guard)
Sableye-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Swampert-Mega (Wonder Guard)

Umbreon (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce)
Volcanion (Wonder Guard)

B-

Aggron-Mega (Prankster, Fur Coat, Magic Bounce)
Alakazam-Mega (Psychic Surge, Harvest)
Banette-Mega (Huge Power)

Houndoom-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Kyurem-White (Magic Bounce)
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings (Wonder Guard)
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane (Huge Power, Magic Bounce)
Necrozma-Ultra (Huge Power, Neuroforce*) *from Ultranecrozium Z Necrozma Dusk Mane or Necrozma Dawn Wings
Pikachu (Imposter)
Sceptile-Mega (No Guard)
Solgaleo (Prankster, No Guard, Sturdy)

C Rank
Articuno (Magic Bounce)
Dialga (Wonder Guard)
Giratina (Innards Out)
Guzzlord (Innards Out)
Heracross-Mega (Huge Power)
Kyurem-Black (Magic Bounce, Refrigerate)
Marowak-Alola (Huge Power)
Metagross-Mega (Harvest, Huge Power, Magnet Pull)

Type: Null (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce)
Xerneas (Innards Out)

D Rank

Bisharp (Wonder Guard)
Beedrill-Mega (Huge Power)
Darmanitan-Zen (Wonder Guard)
Froslass (Magic Bounce)

Excadrill (Innards Out)

Gardevoir-Mega (Wonder Guard, Magic Guard)
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite (Wonder Guard, Illusion)

Magearna (Wonder Guard)
Mamoswine (Magic Bounce)
Mawile @ Mawilite (Simple)

E Rank
Everyone Else - Because really, this is USUM Pure Hackmons.

 

[Norbit (2007)]

Hey apologies it's been an incredibly long while since the viability rankings was previously updated, but today we have an official update on the viability rankings based on new changes and discoveries made throughout 2025, fit to adjust accordingly to the modern state of the metagame. As always, feel free to look over these and discuss rankings. Always be civil and to not slander others over the ranks.

The viability rankings have been overhauled. There is no longer a Wonder Guard Viability Rankings in the format. It was deemed unnecessary after noticing teams, particularly hyper offense, being very well capable of having consistency even without any Wonder Guards within the team. Each Pokemon are ranked individually with all their possible abilities factored in. The abilities listed are three at most to shorten the list, but are not exclusively the abilities they may run in plenty of cases. Enjoy!

Viability Order: S to A-

S Rank
S
Chansey (Imposter, Innards Out)
Blissey (Imposter, Innards Out)

S-
Mewtwo-Mega-X (Huge Power, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard)
Kartana (Huge Power, Wonder Guard, Magic Guard)
Mewtwo-Mega-Y (Psychic Surge, No Guard, Protean)

A Rank
A+
Slaking (Huge Power, Harvest)
Gengar-Mega (Parental Bond, No Guard)
Zygarde-Complete (Prankster, Magic Bounce)

A Rank
Audino-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Groudon-Primal (Magic Bounce, Shadow Tag, Huge Power)
Regigigas (Huge Power)
Meloetta (Wonder Guard)

A- Rank
Arceus (Wonder Guard, Harvest)

Gyarados-Mega (Wonder Guard, Magic Guard, Shadow Tag)

Slowbro-Mega (Wonder Guard, Prankster, Fur Coat)
Celesteela (Wonder Guard, Prankster)
Ferrothorn (Wonder Guard)
Kyogre-Primal (Wonder Guard)

Rayquaza-Mega (Triage, Mold Breaker, Shadow Tag)

Alphabetical Order: B+ to E

B Rank
B+
Deoxys-Attack (Magic Guard, Huge Power, Psychic Surge)
Deoxys-Speed (No Guard, Mold Breaker)

Diancie-Mega (Pixilate, Magic Guard)
Ho-Oh (Wonder Guard, Prankster)
Hoopa-Unbound (Wonder Guard)

Lopunny-Mega (No Guard)
Muk-Alola (Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker)
Pheromosa (Huge Power, No Guard, Comatose)
Scizor-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Steelix-Mega (Prankster, Fur Coat, Magic Bounce)
Yveltal (Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Harvest)

B
Aerodactyl-Mega (No Guard, Shadow Tag)
Doublade (Fur Coat, Magic Bounce, Sturdy)
Giratina-Origin (Innards Out, Harvest)

Greninja-Ash (Wonder Guard, No Guard, Comatose)
Lunala (Innards Out, No Guard, Adaptability)
Heatran (Wonder Guard)
Sableye-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Swampert-Mega (Wonder Guard)

Umbreon (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce)
Volcanion (Wonder Guard)

B-

Aggron-Mega (Prankster, Fur Coat, Magic Bounce)
Alakazam-Mega (Psychic Surge, Harvest)
Banette-Mega (Huge Power)

Houndoom-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Kyurem-White (Magic Bounce)
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings (Wonder Guard)
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane (Huge Power, Magic Bounce)
Necrozma-Ultra (Huge Power, Neuroforce*) *from Ultranecrozium Z Necrozma Dusk Mane or Necrozma Dawn Wings
Pikachu (Imposter)
Sceptile-Mega (No Guard)
Solgaleo (Prankster, No Guard, Sturdy)

C Rank
Articuno (Magic Bounce)
Dialga (Wonder Guard)
Giratina (Innards Out)
Guzzlord (Innards Out)
Heracross-Mega (Huge Power)
Kyurem-Black (Magic Bounce, Refrigerate)
Marowak-Alola (Huge Power)
Metagross-Mega (Harvest, Huge Power, Magnet Pull)

Type: Null (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce)
Xerneas (Innards Out)

D Rank

Bisharp (Wonder Guard)
Beedrill-Mega (Huge Power)
Darmanitan-Zen (Wonder Guard)
Froslass (Magic Bounce)

Excadrill (Innards Out)

Gardevoir-Mega (Wonder Guard, Magic Guard)
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite (Wonder Guard, Illusion)

Magearna (Wonder Guard)
Mamoswine (Magic Bounce)
Mawile @ Mawilite (Simple)

E Rank
Everyone Else - Because really, this is USUM Pure Hackmons.

i expected this to be much worse tbh, but there are still a few problems i have with this, so here's a brief rant (this is only about placements, this would go on for too long if i include abilities)

S-
Mewtwo-Mega-X (Huge Power, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard)
Kartana (Huge Power, Wonder Guard, Magic Guard)
Mewtwo-Mega-Y (Psychic Surge, No Guard, Protean)

these should be a+, they're really good but don't fit everywhere and i think the s ranks should be exclusively for the blobs now

A+
Zygarde-Complete (Prankster, Magic Bounce)

a+ is way too high, it's good at checking a lot of stuff and can beat unprepared teams but it's super hard to fit which really drags it down. a- or b+

B+

Diancie-Mega (Pixilate, Magic Guard)

too low, i haven't used pixilate much but mg is a really nice set, and other stuff like mold can probably work. a or a-

B+
Yveltal (Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Harvest)

i've ranted about this mon too many times so i'm not going to bother doing so again, especially since nobody other then hendrit will agree with me. b or b-

B
Aerodactyl-Mega (No Guard, Shadow Tag)
Lunala (Innards Out, No Guard, Adaptability)

maero in b is super weird, it's arguably the best ng/mold lead since resisting fakespeed and not folding to pbond while still outspeeding almost every mon is really nice. a or a-
scroll up in gen-7-discussion and you'll probably find me saying something about lunala so i'm not gonna say it here. a- or b+

B-
Solgaleo (Prankster, No Guard, Sturdy)

??
b+ or b

ransei didn't actually say this lol but i'm adding this here because why the fuck isn't this mon ranked

solid lead, beats other zap cannon leads and doesn't fold to pbond. a- or b+

there's some other stuff i don't fully agree with but i don't want this post to be too long so i'm leaving it at this

 

[ZeldaFan1]

Steelix-Mega (Prankster, Fur Coat, Magic Bounce)

Aggron-Mega (Prankster, Fur Coat, Magic Bounce)

For the life of me, I don't understand why Steelix is always ranked so much higher then Aggron. Let's look at the differences between the two, to try and find out what Steelix has that Aggron doesn't.

STATS:

HP: Steelix has 5 more base HP
Attack: Aggron has 15 more Attack
Def: Exact Same
SpA: Aggron has 5 more SpA (Very Important Trust)
SpD: Steelix has 15 more SpD
Speed: Aggron has 20 more Speed

So, in terms of raw stats, the argument for Steelix looks like it has solid ground. The Physical Defense is more or less the same, but with slightly more SpD, and both of them will rarely be attacking with intent to kill, mainly to chip something down with Core Enforcer or TWaves or Anchor Shot. However, unlike something like Slaking VS Regigigas, the typing is not the same. Let's look at the pros and cons of the typings, ignoring anything the types share.

STEELIX: GROUND STEEL

PROS:

- Quad Resists Stealth Rock (And the rock type in general, but what rock type attack are you gonna ever see)
- Immune to Electric (Low ladder 10KBolt Immunity? Maybe Volt Switch as a Improof?)
- STAB on TWaves (Good for the non-Balloon Muk-A matchup I guess)

CONS:

- Weak to Water (Random Steam Eruptions and Scalds because POgre is becoming more common)
- Neutral to Grass (Only real Grass move you are gonna see is probably MG Kart Wood Hammer, or something trying to cover MPert or something)
- Neutral to Ice (Ice Shard)

AGGRON

PROS:

- Resists Ice (Takes like zero damage from HP Ice Shards)
- Resists Grass (More or less only a better MG Kart MU)
- Neutral to Water (Doesn't randomly die to POgre)
- Extra Note: Both Steelix and Aggron have Anchor Shot. Steelix does not have a monopoly on STAB trapping moves with TWaves, and Anchor Shot can hit shit like MAud)

CONS:

- Neutral to Electric: (Oh no not 10K Bolt)
- Only resists Stealth Rock (6.2% vs 3.1% on SR)

CONCLUSION:

Steelix has slightly better Stats, while Aggron has a better typing. Pure Steel is way better the Steel Ground, and the Stat differences are minor enough that physically you won't notice a difference, and specially they both probably don't want to stay in anyway due to both having way worse SpD vs Def. But, if you are forced to take a Special move with one of them, Steelix will take it slightly better.

BTW by slightly better I mean
252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Steelix-Mega: 99-117 (27.9 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aggron-Mega: 111-131 (32.2 - 38%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO

And physically:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mewtwo-Mega-X Light That Burns the Sky vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega: 183-216 (51.6 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO252+ Atk Huge Power Mewtwo-Mega-X Light That Burns the Sky vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aggron-Mega: 183-216 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This difference in damage is apparently worth two tiers and a worse typing.

Ok.

 

[Yourself]

i accidently posted this whilst writing it so im just going to leave it up and edit it later, did it half way throught talking about doublade

Hey apologies it's been an incredibly long while since the viability rankings was previously updated, but today we have an official update on the viability rankings based on new changes and discoveries made throughout 2025, fit to adjust accordingly to the modern state of the metagame. As always, feel free to look over these and discuss rankings. Always be civil and to not slander others over the ranks.

The viability rankings have been overhauled. There is no longer a Wonder Guard Viability Rankings in the format. It was deemed unnecessary after noticing teams, particularly hyper offense, being very well capable of having consistency even without any Wonder Guards within the team. Each Pokemon are ranked individually with all their possible abilities factored in. The abilities listed are three at most to shorten the list, but are not exclusively the abilities they may run in plenty of cases. Enjoy!

Viability Order: S to A-

S Rank
S
Chansey (Imposter, Innards Out)
Blissey (Imposter, Innards Out)

S-
Mewtwo-Mega-X (Huge Power, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard)
Kartana (Huge Power, Wonder Guard, Magic Guard)
Mewtwo-Mega-Y (Psychic Surge, No Guard, Protean)

A Rank
A+
Slaking (Huge Power, Harvest)
Gengar-Mega (Parental Bond, No Guard)
Zygarde-Complete (Prankster, Magic Bounce)

A Rank
Audino-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Groudon-Primal (Magic Bounce, Shadow Tag, Huge Power)
Regigigas (Huge Power)
Meloetta (Wonder Guard)

A- Rank
Arceus (Wonder Guard, Harvest)

Gyarados-Mega (Wonder Guard, Magic Guard, Shadow Tag)

Slowbro-Mega (Wonder Guard, Prankster, Fur Coat)
Celesteela (Wonder Guard, Prankster)
Ferrothorn (Wonder Guard)
Kyogre-Primal (Wonder Guard)

Rayquaza-Mega (Triage, Mold Breaker, Shadow Tag)

Alphabetical Order: B+ to E

B Rank
B+
Deoxys-Attack (Magic Guard, Huge Power, Psychic Surge)
Deoxys-Speed (No Guard, Mold Breaker)

Diancie-Mega (Pixilate, Magic Guard)
Ho-Oh (Wonder Guard, Prankster)
Hoopa-Unbound (Wonder Guard)

Lopunny-Mega (No Guard)
Muk-Alola (Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker)
Pheromosa (Huge Power, No Guard, Comatose)
Scizor-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Steelix-Mega (Prankster, Fur Coat, Magic Bounce)
Yveltal (Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Harvest)

B
Aerodactyl-Mega (No Guard, Shadow Tag)
Doublade (Fur Coat, Magic Bounce, Sturdy)
Giratina-Origin (Innards Out, Harvest)

Greninja-Ash (Wonder Guard, No Guard, Comatose)
Lunala (Innards Out, No Guard, Adaptability)
Heatran (Wonder Guard)
Sableye-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Swampert-Mega (Wonder Guard)

Umbreon (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce)
Volcanion (Wonder Guard)

B-

Aggron-Mega (Prankster, Fur Coat, Magic Bounce)
Alakazam-Mega (Psychic Surge, Harvest)
Banette-Mega (Huge Power)

Houndoom-Mega (Wonder Guard)
Kyurem-White (Magic Bounce)
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings (Wonder Guard)
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane (Huge Power, Magic Bounce)
Necrozma-Ultra (Huge Power, Neuroforce*) *from Ultranecrozium Z Necrozma Dusk Mane or Necrozma Dawn Wings
Pikachu (Imposter)
Sceptile-Mega (No Guard)
Solgaleo (Prankster, No Guard, Sturdy)

C Rank
Articuno (Magic Bounce)
Dialga (Wonder Guard)
Giratina (Innards Out)
Guzzlord (Innards Out)
Heracross-Mega (Huge Power)
Kyurem-Black (Magic Bounce, Refrigerate)
Marowak-Alola (Huge Power)
Metagross-Mega (Harvest, Huge Power, Magnet Pull)

Type: Null (Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce)
Xerneas (Innards Out)

D Rank

Bisharp (Wonder Guard)
Beedrill-Mega (Huge Power)
Darmanitan-Zen (Wonder Guard)
Froslass (Magic Bounce)

Excadrill (Innards Out)

Gardevoir-Mega (Wonder Guard, Magic Guard)
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite (Wonder Guard, Illusion)

Magearna (Wonder Guard)
Mamoswine (Magic Bounce)
Mawile @ Mawilite (Simple)

E Rank
Everyone Else - Because really, this is USUM Pure Hackmons.

i think you did a good job considering the task however i still have multiple issues with this vr that i will go over in this post.

A Rank
A+
Zygarde-Complete (Prankster, Magic Bounce)

what this guy did to get in the same tier as the likes of mgar and slaking is beyond me. this guy's main usage with real players comes from magic bounce on stall, and it doesn't really excell at this role it's just that it happens to be on the most popular stall. prankster is mostly a balance exclusive set (which is not at all a good thing considering it is generally considered one of the worst archetypes and is rarely used), and here its role is walling guys you can't rkill, soft checking huge power guys like mmx, and walling special attackers if it gets lucky. zygarde is a momentun sink in that if you switch it in to wall something there is absolutely nothing stopping the opponent from just switching to another guy that beats it. "prank zygarde forces the whole meta to run suboptimal coverage just to beat it" is also heavily over exagerated and there are mamy ways you can break zygarde whilst also doing other things such as lor, stab fairy, freeze dry, huge power cfzs, ohko moves, set up + priority (e.g. shell smash/evoboost slaking), and ice shard (sure shard wouldn't get usage if zygarde didn't exist but it's still useful for guys like kartana to outrade sash guys). i'm not saying prank zygarde is a bad pick on balance by any means, but i do not believe that that or being an alright defensive bouncer on stall justifys anything beyond a- or b+, and many other people seem to agree.

A- Rank

Slowbro-Mega (Wonder Guard, Prankster, Fur Coat)

mbro has noticably fallen off recently, you even said this yourself, and yet its ranking doesn't reflect this with it somehow being above guys like steela, ferro and pogre. if i tried to pinpoint a reason for this, i think it'd be because 1. it doesn't fit on offense 2. balance probably prefers the steels for a physical wg because they can pivot on special attackers 3. stall usually prefers innards as opposed to non wg/bounce physical walls, fur coat requires ltbts switch ins which is limiting on the builder, and prankster only soft checks mmx running coverage for it which stal doesn't like because it cannot expect to be positioned correctly (pivot moves being difficult to fit plays a part in this) and 4. it's weak to zap cannon with absolutely no special bulk making up for it. this is always been an issue but u-turn weak is also unfortunate. b+ or something.

B Rank
B+
Hoopa-Unbound (Wonder Guard)

b+ for hoopa unbound is genuinely wild. the only times i have seen this mon this year are 1400s on ladder, somaroga (who's team is not good and also hasn't been changed in a year), and that one child of night team. this mon by itself is really bad and ths only justificafion for running this guy is improofing. the only way it does anything into offense and ho is if it manages to set up and get hazards up, and against everything else it's coverage fishing and regardless likely does nothing due to some wg tanking a hit from it, clicking a pivot move and either dying because it's u-turn or being forced out/killed by fimp/diancie fake speed. this should be in b or b-.

B Rank
B+

Lopunny-Mega (No Guard)

all i have to say is being slower than mmy really hurts, and some of the qualities its typing brings (rocks resist, bug resist, ghost immune) hardly justify it. on top of being really fast, other ngs have their own positives from their typing (aero fake speed resist and fissure immunity, or sceptile spore immunity). aswell mgar does actually justify being slower than mmy because it can actually use zap cannon, it can bluff scarf pbond threating leads that would beat its ng set, and imo its defensive traits (fake speed immune and tspikes absorb) are preferable to the bunny's. b or b-.

B Rank
B+
Scizor-Mega (Wonder Guard)

why is scizor a whole subtier below steela and ferrro? yes steela and ferro bring their own positives (steela's extra special bulk, spikes immunity and fissure immunity, and ferro's spore immunity, slow pivotting and rock resist) but they both bring extra problematic weaknesses (electric and fighting respectively) that often deters me from choosing them in the builder, and imo shouldn't put them a whole subrank above scizor. i don't really care what order they are in because it's probably personal preference but i would like to see scizor move up to a-.

B Rank
B+
Steelix-Mega (Prankster, Fur Coat, Magic Bounce)

everything other than prankster is complete larp on mlix, and for its specific role i can't remember the last time i've wanted to use it over other similar mons. the only things i could actually expect this thing to do are 1. wall wg kart and sss hp kart (which prank doublade does better because fighting immune, and fighting synergises really well with sss) and 2. soak ltbts from mmx (in which prank doublade actually walls the standard leppa mmx thanks to the fighting immunity rather than just absorbing ltbts). i even prefer registeel to mlix because while yes it doesn't soak mmx ltbts, it makes up for it with a lot more special bulk which actually lets it function as a solid special wall and wall protean mmy which is big, and if you have dark type teamates not soaking ltbts isn't a huge deal. registeel really should of made it onto the vr (especially considering shit like magearna was included) and mlix needs to move down to b or b-.

B
Doublade (Fur Coat, Magic Bounce, Sturdy)

i feel like doublade has been completely misrepresentes here. magic bounce is just question mark, and sturdy is a niche improofing option that has only ever been ran on one team. i don't like fur coat either because it only matters for thousand arrows, and i think things like flash fire and prankster are better. i think flash fire is better because fire is both superior and more common coverage than physical ground, and i think prankster is better because it still soft checks tarrows mmx, with strength sap it can check standard leppa mmx, and it checks sss kart (better than mlix bc fighting immunity). i still think fc is better than sturdy and bounce tho so if you want 3 abilities imo they should be prank, flash fire and fc.

 

[HartetheWooper]

https://pokepast.es/9a0f1eaba7554d7f
How would someone improve this team?

The Magic Bounce MMX is just a lead thats good for psysurge mmy and hazard setters. spec is there as a improof sorta. If imp come in copying a shell smash, either mmx outspeeds and ohkos or loses sash and ohkos. sunsteel is cause sometimes theres alolan muk or something. Not sure if its worth the lack of stab. combat hits arc and slak and karts.

Dazzling mmx is there to kill not only triage ray, but Eyeos' triage ray. spear bypasses sash and kills ray after the turn where mmx shell smashes and ray realizes it cant use owing. spec is for improof. if eyeos sent in the meloetta in that team, i would have had to switch.

hp mmx. i wanted a mmx pumped full of cfzs. it hits stall hard. i won a stall battle in like 13 turns with that mmx. this mmx likes hazards to sash break. mmx vs stall: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7purehackmons-2503457955-rygl32ls5v4q83ibc5h3egt71bkrdawpw

blissey. backup improof.

hp slak with sfire instead of fakeout. people send in kart or celesteela against this when sfire isnt revealed. they die.

aerodactyl is a fissure ng. imposter almost always sings, so you send in mb mmx to beat it. who is using fissure on a flying type? double hazards for some reason. mb mmx shell smash sunsteel always ohkos imposter aero

if you take this team, you could probably play it better than me

(edit: it may have been a bad idea to post something right after a new official vr)

 

[Guysmash]

Beedrill-Mega (Huge Power)

How is Beedrill-Mega's only Ability HP when it’s MG set is really cool ? I've never seen HP working but MG can shine in some teams

 

[Rain]

i accidently posted this whilst writing it so im just going to leave it up and edit it later, did it half way throught talking about doublade

I didnt accidentally post this whilst writing. I just cant wait to post this

what this guy did to get in the same tier as the likes of mgar and slaking is beyond me. this guy's main usage with real players comes from magic bounce on stall, and it doesn't really excell at this role it's just that it happens to be on the most popular stall.

usage dont mean much here as the ladder has been pretty bad dont have to explain this one

prankster is mostly a balance exclusive set (which is not at all a good thing considering it is generally considered one of the worst archetypes and is rarely used), and here its role is walling guys you can't rkill, soft checking huge power guys like mmx, and walling special attackers if it gets lucky.

WRONG
who tf said prank is balance exclusive set, prank can absolutely be a good defensive staple on bulky offense to shut down the random anti offense type of setup sweepers(wg kart, gren and arc if you want to). as moldy moves have 3 pps you can simply stall them out.

"prank zygarde forces the whole meta to run suboptimal coverage just to beat it" is also heavily over exagerated and there are mamy ways you can break zygarde whilst also doing other things such as lor, stab fairy, freeze dry, huge power cfzs, ohko moves, set up + priority (e.g. shell smash/evoboost slaking), and ice shard (sure shard wouldn't get usage if zygarde didn't exist but it's still useful for guys like kartana to outrade sash guys).

fairy coverages do get a drop in usage if zygarde never existed as most abusers of those uses photon/moongeist as the moldy move in which fighting would be easily better coverage on most of the other things. freeze dry is absolutely a big cteam on zygarde for its 70 bp is hurting a lot and outside of zygarde it hits like water types, flying types and thats almost it, electric would be so much better here, and 70bp to 100bp is nearly a spec boost (42% more). huge power cfzs and ohko moves do have their job done well against everything ill give it to you, shell smash/evoboost + priority is pretty sus here as you get a +2 speed boost to outspeed shts and priority make it even harder for you to improof, but its more like a fuku on every prank haze users instead of zygarde. no comment on shard

and you didnt even mention zygarde with other abilities for some reason. Ill assume thats because its not listed on the vr, yet still there are some notable sets utilizing its crazy bulk to full potential such as No Guard

yes you guys think its gonna be a meme but no. The combo of no guard+fissure make it possibly the best piece trader in the whole game although thats not really relevant in the meta. With the bulk to tank nearly every hit for at least once, an absolutely strong fight back is very appreciated here. This set can 1v1 far more sets including the bouncers. and by spamming gastro acid you can force out the wonder guards to take hazard damage(not to mention its great cooperation with pbond mgar when you bring tspikes on zygarde). This is just one of the easiest way to demonstrate the more usage of the bulk.

mbro has noticably fallen off recently, you even said this yourself, and yet its ranking doesn't reflect this with it somehow being above guys like steela, ferro and pogre. if i tried to pinpoint a reason for this, i think it'd be because 1. it doesn't fit on offense 2. balance probably prefers the steels for a physical wg because they can pivot on special attackers 3. stall usually prefers innards as opposed to non wg/bounce physical walls, fur coat requires ltbts switch ins which is limiting on the builder, and prankster only soft checks mmx running coverage for it which stal doesn't like because it cannot expect to be positioned correctly (pivot moves being difficult to fit plays a part in this) and 4. it's weak to zap cannon with absolutely no special bulk making up for it. this is always been an issue but u-turn weak is also unfortunate. b+ or something.

yes mbro have fallen off but not like fallen off harder than fuking steela or pogre? ferro might be a bit underrated but those two are absolutely not better than mbro by any means. Seemingly people are stopping to remember the fact that teams like mmx spam with 4 hp ones can absolutely do a great job in the balance era. Anyways mbro truely isn't a great choice as the pure defensive piece in offense, and it do fits on balance but its pretty bad rn, and for 3 I'll have to disagree with you. I do know the fact that you probably play a lot more stalls than me and have massive amount of experience but seemingly you have fell to the trap with the innards spams. Innards is NOT fully reliable on ANY kind of archetype, its not a magic spell that solves all your problem and mguard pursuit can easily ruin your life as you only have a cute little 327 speed, which is even slower than positive nature base 100 speeds as well as the neutral nature base 115 speeds. Mbro absolutely does a good job in defensive cores, easily proofed by usage in stalls and semi stalls around phpl. After phpl semi stalls fall and I still don't think full stall is gonna be a good archetype. 4 you are valuing zap cannon WAAY too high. Uhh I just noticed steela is also in A- what. What are you even aruging mbro and steela in same tier what do you want. wait WHY ARE THEY IN THE SAME TIER RANSEI, HOW IS STEELA JUSTIFIED TO BE A- POKEMON WTF KYORGE IN A- AND AMUK IN B+ WHY

ok kyorge is easily a fraud
252+ Atk Huge Power Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
as a special wall it can hardly outclass the eggs and the fact that there is no special huge power make special attacker naturally worse, as well as making special walls less good.

celesteela is tricking people with the numbers
252+ SpA Parental Bond Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Celesteela: 214-255 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Huge Power Mewtwo-Mega-X Light That Burns the Sky vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 306-361 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Huge Power Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 153-181 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
not to mention the fact of the existance of vcreate which have great coverage as well as sky high bp that is almost as much as the cfzs.

b+ for hoopa unbound is genuinely wild. the only times i have seen this mon this year are 1400s on ladder, somaroga (who's team is not good and also hasn't been changed in a year), and that one child of night team. this mon by itself is really bad and ths only justificafion for running this guy is improofing. the only way it does anything into offense and ho is if it manages to set up and get hazards up, and against everything else it's coverage fishing and regardless likely does nothing due to some wg tanking a hit from it, clicking a pivot move and either dying because it's u-turn or being forced out/killed by fimp/diancie fake speed. this should be in b or b-.

agreed. as a wg being 4 times weak to uturn hurts too much, and the speed tier is not high enough to get it justified. Btw why is ashgren so low, faster than mmx/mgar and photon/moongeist immunity/resistance really helps a lot. Its so much more than just wg ng and coma, hp mbounce prank are all fitting great on it. it should switch place with gyara.

all i have to say is being slower than mmy really hurts, and some of the qualities its typing brings (rocks resist, bug resist, ghost immune) hardly justify it. on top of being really fast, other ngs have their own positives from their typing (aero fake speed resist and fissure immunity, or sceptile spore immunity). aswell mgar does actually justify being slower than mmy because it can actually use zap cannon, it can bluff scarf pbond threating leads that would beat its ng set, and imo its defensive traits (fake speed immune and tspikes absorb) are preferable to the bunny's. b or b-.

yea aero is better into ho but lopunny is not only a lead, it's rock resistance and moongeist immunity give it massive defensive utility to make it better than aero. Aero have hardly anything more than fake speed immunity and being able to tank the hardest hitting pixilate and aerilate fake speed for short, but it can't be a consistent switch in into stuff for its rock weakness. mgar is 130 spe, not enough as a no guard user. The bluff is not rly big tbh. lop can't be simply replaced in its role.

why is scizor a whole subtier below steela and ferrro? yes steela and ferro bring their own positives (steela's extra special bulk, spikes immunity and fissure immunity, and ferro's spore immunity, slow pivotting and rock resist) but they both bring extra problematic weaknesses (electric and fighting respectively) that often deters me from choosing them in the builder, and imo shouldn't put them a whole subrank above scizor. i don't really care what order they are in because it's probably personal preference but i would like to see scizor move up to a-.

agreed. Scizor should be same tier as ferro at least. steela should be lower

everything other than prankster is complete larp on mlix, and for its specific role i can't remember the last time i've wanted to use it over other similar mons. the only things i could actually expect this thing to do are 1. wall wg kart and sss hp kart (which prank doublade does better because fighting immune, and fighting synergises really well with sss) and 2. soak ltbts from mmx (in which prank doublade actually walls the standard leppa mmx thanks to the fighting immunity rather than just absorbing ltbts). i even prefer registeel to mlix because while yes it doesn't soak mmx ltbts, it makes up for it with a lot more special bulk which actually lets it function as a solid special wall and wall protean mmy which is big, and if you have dark type teamates not soaking ltbts isn't a huge deal. registeel really should of made it onto the vr (especially considering shit like magearna was included) and mlix needs to move down to b or b-.

fur coat and bounce might be larp but the unlisted no guard is sth. It's one of the most reliant physical wall in the game, not to mention your automatic access to priority dbond as a prank user in the worst case. registeel is not fuking justified.

i feel like doublade has been completely misrepresentes here. magic bounce is just question mark, and sturdy is a niche improofing option that has only ever been ran on one team. i don't like fur coat either because it only matters for thousand arrows, and i think things like flash fire and prankster are better. i think flash fire is better because fire is both superior and more common coverage than physical ground, and i think prankster is better because it still soft checks tarrows mmx, with strength sap it can check standard leppa mmx, and it checks sss kart (better than mlix bc fighting immunity). i still think fc is better than sturdy and bounce tho so if you want 3 abilities imo they should be prank, flash fire and fc.

"i feel like doublade has been completely misrepresentes here." no its not. mbounce is sth, sturdy might be a question mark i don't like defensive ng answers anyways, and idk about fc or flash fire but both aren't appealing to me. prank should absolutely be listed. And still no guard.

btw seeing the b tier bros reminds me of a funni team of mine
Doublade (Fur Coat, Magic Bounce, Sturdy)
Giratina-Origin (Innards Out, Harvest)
Greninja-Ash (Wonder Guard, No Guard, Comatose)
https://pokepast.es/99e91eb62fbc939b
its pretty bad the point of it is to be funny

D Rank

Bisharp (Wonder Guard)
Beedrill-Mega (Huge Power)
Darmanitan-Zen (Wonder Guard)
Froslass (Magic Bounce)

Excadrill (Innards Out)

Gardevoir-Mega (Wonder Guard, Magic Guard)
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite (Wonder Guard, Illusion)

Magearna (Wonder Guard)
Mamoswine (Magic Bounce)
Mawile @ Mawilite (Simple)

btw why is mamoswine here wtf, mamoswine serves a niche of blocking a very specific set of no guard being sheer cold+zap cannon which is a good set ill admit but its not justifiable to use a MAMOSWINE to stop them, you don't reliably stop no guard users and because of the fact that they are no guard users you can simply blunder a piece guessing the wrong set and eat a fissure/guillotine(horn drill if you dont want aura) or a photon geyser/sunsteel strike/moongeist beam that will instantly OHKO or 2HKO it. froslass/articuno is good enough for a actual no guard stopper.



im tired ill write the rest later

 

[WindySnivy_]

https://pokepast.es/9a0f1eaba7554d7f
How would someone improve this team?

The Magic Bounce MMX is just a lead thats good for psysurge mmy and hazard setters. spec is there as a improof sorta. If imp come in copying a shell smash, either mmx outspeeds and ohkos or loses sash and ohkos. sunsteel is cause sometimes theres alolan muk or something. Not sure if its worth the lack of stab. combat hits arc and slak and karts.

Dazzling mmx is there to kill not only triage ray, but Eyeos' triage ray. spear bypasses sash and kills ray after the turn where mmx shell smashes and ray realizes it cant use owing. spec is for improof. if eyeos sent in the meloetta in that team, i would have had to switch.

hp mmx. i wanted a mmx pumped full of cfzs. it hits stall hard. i won a stall battle in like 13 turns with that mmx. this mmx likes hazards to sash break. mmx vs stall: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7purehackmons-2503457955-rygl32ls5v4q83ibc5h3egt71bkrdawpw

blissey. backup improof.

hp slak with sfire instead of fakeout. people send in kart or celesteela against this when sfire isnt revealed. they die.

aerodactyl is a fissure ng. imposter almost always sings, so you send in mb mmx to beat it. who is using fissure on a flying type? double hazards for some reason. mb mmx shell smash sunsteel always ohkos imposter aero

if you take this team, you could probably play it better than me

(edit: it may have been a bad idea to post something right after a new official vr)

alright, let's see. it's an HO team with a funny name. it looks nice in the teambuilder. the maero and slak sets are really cool. now, read those three things that i just said about the team. what's missing? that's right, mmx. all three mmx sets are too niche to actually function well. cfz spam just does not break stall the way it should. mbounce mmx really only beats spore mmy (and hard hazard setters that aren't mold which suck in this meta), and some of them aren't even running spore anymore. finally, dazzling mmx is just a complete triage mray cteam that doesn't actually help the team much because dazzling mmx is a complete waste of an ability slot that has 0 damage output. also, mray can just spore > moongeist you. (funny calc: 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 348-420 (84 - 101.4%) -- 0.2% chance to OHKO)

i actually don't think triple mmx can work with these teammates as you don't really want to run ng mmx with ng maero, psysurge mmx with fakespeed slak, or mg mmx with innards bliss (which can be improofed with maero if done well but this is the kind of team where you lead maero, maybe take some kos, and die). you could run harvest mmx but it's too frail to actually pull this off.

 

[Hyundai 25-L 7 Forklift]

hi. i like weird mons. im going to yap about niche mons here if u dont mind. credits to the people who created these (not me)


Zapdos @ Shed Shell
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Zap Cannon
- Shore Up
- Spikes
- Anchor Shot

yeah so first we have this motherfucker. i have no idea what he does but he supposedly counters non-moongeist ng mgar. basically the idea is ng mgar usually runs fissure as ohko move of choice to hit alolan muk. this zapdos also is neutral to zap cannon, a common move on ng mgar, and reverse zap cannons because ng always makes BOTH pokemon always hit their moves. it also mbounces tspikes, taunt, and other hazards and stuff. my biggest problem is this is so specifically cteaming a specific set of mgar. mgar can run multiple sets, such as mg, pbond, etc. and you really have to just scout. another thing is stab moongeist fucks you up. supposedly, phcord told me people run zap cannon, tspikes, taunt, fissure on ng mgar??? which is dumb. stab geist really just works. additionally, if they run sheer cold this set does nothing. on paper it doesn't seem half bad, but in practice its kinda dumb

---


Magneton @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Shore Up
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief

this set is hella outdated and i'll go over that in a bit. firstly, this set aims to counter hp kart. hp kart has minimal defensive checks not named innards. (this is assuming the hp kart is hp sss sunsteel ice shard smash, which was popular back then, hence magneton is sorta outdated) iirc they were heatran and magneton and one other im forgetting. magneton quad resists sunsteel and eviolite does make it bulky and anchor and spectral and healing help it stay longer and annoy kart. now this completely folds to a kart with more variety, where the kart trades dual stab for something like vcreate or earthquake?? (hella weak but usable). again this is outdated, but yeah, it sort of works

---


Mamoswine @ Air Balloon
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Shore Up
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off / Twineedle
- Thousand Waves

not a believer, sorry. this is just anti ng that every offense beats. it's typing is horrendously bad. this is like articuno but you're electric immune but not fissure immune after balloon pops. the idea is you mbounce hazards, gastro, sing, etc. and you are ng immune (sort of - watch me run horn drill). i dislike it very much, but it works on paper weirdly enough. not much to say, Yourself talked about it in an earlier post go check it out

---



Ninjask @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sheer Cold
- Sing
- Entrainment
- Spikes

ninjask is a ng user that is pheromosa with slightly faster speed and web immunity. personally i find it bad, and phero's attacking stats outvalue web immunity and a minimal speed difference. phroom people are telling that this works but uhhhhhh

edit 1 @ 2:32pm est - jask edited

 

[PenultimateToast]

WRONG
who tf said prank is balance exclusive set, prank can absolutely be a good defensive staple on bulky offense to shut down the random anti offense type of setup sweepers(wg kart, gren and arc if you want to). as moldy moves have 3 pps you can simply stall them out.

hard to fit on bulky offense from my experience as i'd rather have something that can more reliably improof my offensive mons, zygod doesn't really hard check anything well enough for me to feel comfortable using it as an improof

fairy coverages do get a drop in usage if zygarde never existed as most abusers of those uses photon/moongeist as the moldy move in which fighting would be easily better coverage on most of the other things.

fairy coverage is still good even without zygod? most of my photon mons have fairy coverage, geist mons i'll give you that but from my experience photon likes fairy a lot of the time, plus sunsteel/geist/fairy is the best coverage combo in the game so :P

freeze dry is absolutely a big cteam on zygarde for its 70 bp is hurting a lot and outside of zygarde it hits like water types, flying types and thats almost it, electric would be so much better here, and 70bp to 100bp is nearly a spec boost (42% more).

freeze dry isn't really a cteam to zygod, sets like sunsteel/geist/freeze dry and mglo freeze dry pdon are still difficult to wall even not considering zygod, sure electric would likely be preferable on sunsteel geist outside of zygod but mg pdon would likely still want freeze dry for swampert, ho-oh is beatable if you can get rocks up (not too difficult of a task) so freeze dry likely still is preferable over volt tackle here

shell smash/evoboost + priority is pretty sus here as you get a +2 speed boost to outspeed shts and priority make it even harder for you to improof

shell smash + prio is still good? you get to sweep much easier unlike without prio, and prio doesn't really make it harder for you to improof (in fact i'd argue it makes it easier to improof cause your coverage is more limited).

and you didnt even mention zygarde with other abilities for some reason. Ill assume thats because its not listed on the vr, yet still there are some notable sets utilizing its crazy bulk to full potential such as No Guard

no guard is mostly just surprise factor, and you can run random ng on practically anything so i don't really think this is something that sets zygod apart from like anything else.

With the bulk to tank nearly every hit for at least once, an absolutely strong fight back is very appreciated here.

fair but i'd rather run random ng on something that can more reliably wall certain mons (e.g. ho-oh for sunsteel/geist/fairy mons) so you can more reliably get the ohko off

and by spamming gastro acid you can force out the wonder guards to take hazard damage

this goes for every ng ever and it doesn't really do this job that well cause you're outsped by multiple wgs

yes mbro have fallen off but not like fallen off harder than fuking steela or pogre?

mbro has gotten noticeably worse than both of these mons? mbro isn't really a reliable switch in to basically anything cause it's weak to so many coverage moves, steela's just okay imo but it's better than mbro cause the wg steel role is more valuable than a 50% chance to wall whatever's in front of you, and pogre has gotten much better as of late with the rise of sunsteel/geist/fairy and just being a nice special/mixed wall

and for 3 I'll have to disagree with you. I do know the fact that you probably play a lot more stalls than me and have massive amount of experience but seemingly you have fell to the trap with the innards spams. Innards is NOT fully reliable on ANY kind of archetype, its not a magic spell that solves all your problem and mguard pursuit can easily ruin your life as you only have a cute little 327 speed, which is even slower than positive nature base 100 speeds as well as the neutral nature base 115 speeds.

innards stall is probably one of the top archetypes as of now, mguard pursuit isn't prevelant enough for that to be too big of an issue (plus innards stall usually runs stuff such as scarf innards or def investment for mguard pursuit anyways). i feel like the success of innards stall teams + the rise of leppa mmx which megabro doesn't like at all both prove yourself's point

Mbro absolutely does a good job in defensive cores, easily proofed by usage in stalls and semi stalls around phpl.

i feel like phpl isn't really a good representation of the meta and from what i can tell in most phpl games mbro didn't even do much :P

4 you are valuing zap cannon WAAY too high.

don't really agree, most ng gars are zap cannon and blocking that is really nice, tbf you don't want to switch mbro into gar but being able to block that is still nice even if that isn't your main role

Uhh I just noticed steela is also in A- what. What are you even aruging mbro and steela in same tier what do you want. wait WHY ARE THEY IN THE SAME TIER RANSEI, HOW IS STEELA JUSTIFIED TO BE A- POKEMON WTF KYORGE IN A- AND AMUK IN B+ WHY

both mbro and the wg steels should probably drop tho mbro should drop to like low b+ maybe high b. wg steels are b+. muk is kinda whatever i don't really like it, b+ is justified

ok kyorge is easily a fraud
252+ Atk Huge Power Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
as a special wall it can hardly outclass the eggs and the fact that there is no special huge power make special attacker naturally worse, as well as making special walls less good.

kyogre isn't trying to wall kartana??? it's a mixed/special wall mainly you shouldn't use it as a primary sunsteel wall. i don't understand why you're comparing the eggs (if you mean wg they're not a mixed wall at all and if you mean innards that's a completely different role so idk why you're even comparing them), and special attackers still demand prep in the builder due to sets like sunsteel/geist/fairy being really hard to wall.

not gonna respond to the rest of the post cause i'm lazy :lickylicky:

 

[PenultimateToast]

ignore double post

​

saw splodge do a christmas team a while back and i figured i might as well. definitely unoptimized even with the christmas restriction but who cares. kinda one note descriptions for most of the mons, a lot of these are pretty standard tho so not much to say really

Xerneas @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Shell Smash
- Searing Sunraze Smash
- Moonblast
- Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom
set stolen from aerobee. sunsteel/geist/fairy is broken and xern can run it pretty well (although you don't 2hko zygod with moonblast), aside from that it just does innards stuff. not much to say other than that

Sceptile-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sheer Cold
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Sticky Web
ng lead. what do you want me to say about this


Kyurem-White @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Shell Smash
- Searing Sunraze Smash
- Moongeist Beam
- Freeze-Dry
bounce kyurem that improofs the ng lead wow!!! sss to actually break shit that isn't maud and also kinda selfproof

Sceptile-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fissure
- Guillotine
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
kinda the ng gar but not really. fissure is fissure guillotine is mainly to cteam rando bouncers, tbh it isn't much worse than zap cannon on this kinda set imo, taunt is broken and rocks are rocks. rocks on this guy and not the other sceptile to cteam bounce mamoswine stall better so yourself can't call this mamoswine stall food

Necrozma-Dawn-Wings @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Moongeist Beam
- Photon Geyser
set stolen from akira in offense-offensekillerv2 or whatever it was called. iirc you beat imp with unecrozium though i'm not 100% sure? you do beat not-eviolite imp though eviolite imp i don't remember. aside from that triple mold is good (sunsteel is dogshit before ultra burst though it's fine after you ultra burst) and unecrozium is funny and maybe lets you like surprise kart or something sometimes. fits the christmas theme cause unecro is kinda like the lights on a christmas tree, definitely reaching but who cares i don't wanna use some bullshit like xurkitree

Diancie-Mega @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Extreme Speed
- Searing Sunraze Smash
- Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom
i think i stole this set from aerobee's teambuilder? can't remember for sure though. more sunsteel/geist/fairy cause it's broken, pixilate is also nice prio. cfz versions of sunsteel and geist cause diancie can't really break that well without them, also cfzs are broken. diancie doesn't really fit the christmas theme but i wanted a good mon and it didn't feel completely out of place

don't really have many replays cause i didn't really feel like playing with this team that much
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7purehackmons-2495809531?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7purehackmons-2495812530

 

[Child of Night]

The many trials and tribulations of WG sweeper Arceus

Arceus @ Fist Plate
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Taunt
- Moongeist Beam
- Judgment
​

This set (Nicknamed Tauntceus) has been one of the most popular WG sweepers for a while now, and it is arguably also the best WG sweeper, but there are a lot of things that hold it back, which I want to explore here.

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You can't really understand what's wrong with a set if you don't understand what it does, so I'll add a short list here.

1. Selfproofs against Imposter mons (not holding a Fist Plate)
2. Mono Normal typing lets it be a nice improof for certain sets that use Moongeist, and this typing also allows it to switch into certain attackers that may not be able to hit it.
3. After a Shell Smash, Arceus has very good type coverage with Moongeist Beam and Judgment, letting it hit a wide array of Pokemon for at least Neutral damage.
4. Even at 0+ Arceus is pretty fast for the usual WGs, meaning it can Taunt most of them before they can do anything. This lets it avoid being shut down by most phazing and status moves. The one exception to this is Prankster Haze, but most mons that run this set can't really touch it after that initial haze, and have to switch out to get rid of Taunt.
5. Because it is a Normal type (and also because it has WG), its boosts cannot be stolen by Spectral Thief, which is a common anti-sweeper tool used by defensive Pokemon.
6. Arceus' bulk is also decent, meaning it can set up on a decent number of Pokemon without going down instantly.
7. It can block Trick

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Now that we know what it is supposed to do, let's discuss how it fails and underperforms in a lot of ways.

1. Damage

Sweepers should be able to OHKO most non reists at +2 atk/spa. Arceus does not do that almost ever. Due to the fact that this set does not run any STAB moves, and Arceus' poor offensive stats, it does not OHKO almost any neutral targets (or not even doing half to some), only occasionally getting OHKOs when lading Super Effective attacks.

Tauntceus Damage Calcs

+2 252+ SpA Arceus Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 179-211 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Arceus Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 316-372 (75.9 - 89.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Arceus Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X: 358-422 (86 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Arceus Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X: 358-422 (86 - 101.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 378-446 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Arceus Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 116-137 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Arceus Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Celesteela: 177-209 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 378-446 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 316-374 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 221-261 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 558-658 (110.7 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regigigas: 402-474 (94.8 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Arceus Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 81-96 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- 18.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 221-261 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Arceus Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Arceus Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 338-398 (84.9 - 100%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

2. Hazards

Due to Tauntceus' meager attacking stats and lack of STAB, it basically forces the team it is used on to have a very reliable hazards setter so it can get certain damage ranges to help it OHKO things. Even then, hazards don't really save it here as it can't even reliably OHKO both the Mega Mewtwo forms after rocks damage. Especially MMY, who has a very small chance of actually dying to Moongeist Beam. MMX despite having lower special bulk, also gives Tauntceus major problems as it resists Stealth Rocks, meaning that it can only OHKO it 50% of the time. For a better OHKO chance, you have to run the much worse Spikes. Of course, a lot of Pokémon that are faster than it also really like to run Focus Sash, which means if you don't run hazards, they could possibly just set up on you and then outspeed you and OHKO you.

3. Breaking Potential

Taunt is used on the set as otherwise it basically has no way of breaking most defensive WGs, but even then, it usually fails. Almost every team now has a good way of dealing with it without having to try all that hard to do so. Normal type WGs not weak to fighting can just run things like Magic Coat + attacking move, Circle Throw, Magic Bounce Haze Zygarde and so on. Usually, the most useful thing Arceus can do against defensive teams is just Taunt the Pokemon coming in and then switch out to something else that can possibly make use of it better, assuming the Pokemon being sent in can block U-turn.

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So if Tauntceus can't sweep well, and it can't break well, what does it actually do? In my opinion, its best trait is improofing other Pokemon on your team and being a WG not weak to OHKO and a lot of other common moves. That's about it. It probably won't be doing much into most competent teams or players, but this set is still used for its unique qualities for a good reason. It is maybe used a bit *too* much, but that's not really the sets fault, rather the players using it.

Also, I will put a small note here to say that Tauntceus is very good on ladder because a lot of people don't know how to deal with it for whatever reason, but this post was mainly directed at top level play, and not the general game itself.

Here are some Tauntceus replays that I did not check the contents of at all (except for one):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7purehackmons-2490349611
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7purehackmons-2488704306?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7purehackmons-2490480094-1192qtf9judmer1oau2pnqrwnwdlmwfpw?p2 One of the only games where I got Arceus to actually break stuff, but it had a lot of help doing it.

 

[WindySnivy_]

If you like weird mons, then you'll like...

SAWSBUCK HAZARD STACK
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The team peaked 1652 at #7 which is I believe the second highest I have ever gotten with niche mons. (yes i am talking about arat)
​

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Mold Breaker hazards are really cool. They let you get hazards up on MBounce, HO's only hazard deterrent except for Defog Innards, which gets blocked by Taunt. MBee does four things better than MMX (the only other mold hazards mon that actually sees usage) in this role: it absorbs TSpikes, it's fast, it has U-turn STAB, and it doesn't die to PBond Scarf MGar Moongeist.

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Lunala is like Gira-O but it dies to more things. Plus, low ladders have 0 IQ and love to click Sneak on Innards Ghost- types. Two more good things about Lun are that it blocks Trick and outspeeds more things. It's also the team's only hazard removal. If you're having trouble with HarvSlak, you could replace Defog with Whirlwind to force it out.

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Read the above post. It's pretty short and it summarizes this mon well.

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The team was originally supposed to be MMY Hazard Stack, because my god does this thing do damage. Photon is MMY's go-to damage dealer that does reliable STAB damage, Moongeist hits all S- mons, Bug Buzz beats Melo and Hoopa-U, and Oceanic Operetta nukes PDon and Ho-Oh in dire situations. PBond Specs MMY is actually extremely underrated, and I personally think it deserves more usage.

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Kart, while it might feel kind of slapped-on, is also great with hazards since +2 Kart destroys a lot of things with their Sash broken. I didn't really want to run SSS on this thing because most stall teams now have ways to deal with it, like Heatran and Innards. 136 Speed EVs is the fastest it can go without Imposter sweeping the entire team.

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It's the moment you might've been waiting for if you were ever interested in making Sawsbuck work. The set is basically Gold's Prank Kart set with Spikes > Webs and an Adamant nature. However, don't just assume I'm using Sawsbuck as a worse Kart for the memes. Sawsbuck has an actual niche (shocking, I know) of being immune to Ghost and being slow. This matters for several reasons: you can switch in on PBond Scarf MGar if you need to, you can cteam Gold's Prank Kart, you can sort-of self Improof, and you can have a slower SThief. It's also conveniently faster than 136 Speed EVs Kart (who knew)!

Matchup Spread (best at the top, worst at the bottom)​

Good Matchups
Hyper Offense: It's really hard for HO to beat this team as Specs MMY just obliterates everything after their Innards is removed.
Offense: A similar story to HO, except it requires a bit more of playing around their defensive mons.
BO / Balance: Taunt + Hazard Stack is quite good against this teamstyle. It's definitely not easy to beat, though, especially if they have HarvSlak.

Bad Matchups
Stall: It's not unwinnable, but a good Stall player will know how to deal with this team.

In hindsight, maybe I just made a HO cteam. Oh well.

 

[Wyrd]

Ninjask @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sheer Cold
- Sing
- Entrainment
- Spikes

ninjask is a ng user that is pheromosa with slightly faster speed and web immunity. personally i find it bad, and phero's attacking stats outvalue web immunity and a minimal speed difference. phroom people are telling that this works but uhhhhhh

edit 1 @ 2:32pm est - jask edited

The Jask! It works and very fun too use, (serious wyrd who doesn’t care about how cool the jask is taking over typing now) the jask is ruined by rocks, and it’s only niche is to wreck phero webs teams. However, this it does better than any other mon (usually 6-0s if u get up spikes and its the no innards version, with a magic guard 6-0 is still possible but more unlikely) but this is literally the only team it does better than maero against, (apart from maybe deo a webs) and is kinda just worse than maero after the use of webs phero has plummeted, with it literally only dealing with the tseng webs deo a spam team. Regular wyrd back now. Praise the jask!