You can't disrespect my boy, one of the best stallbreakers of the tier just like that. Heatran has a lot of defensive utility that goes beyond the Kyurem thing, and it's specially good at dealing with pokemon like Gholdengo, Darkrai, Ogerpon (standard and Cornerstone), Hatterene, Kingambit, Scizor, Rillaboom, CM Valiant and Iron Moth, and it even can trap Glowking.
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Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread - (update on post #1193))
- Thread starter Shaymin Sky
- Start date
You can't disrespect my boy, one of the best stallbreakers of the tier just like that. Heatran has a lot of defensive utility that goes beyond the Kyurem thing, and it's specially good at dealing with pokemon like Gholdengo, Darkrai, Ogerpon (standard and Cornerstone), Hatterene, Kingambit, Scizor, Rillaboom, CM Valiant and Iron Moth, and it even can trap Glowking.
![eliana[]samia](/forums/data/avatars/m/734/734312.jpg?1766188549){kind=avatar}
Yeah, I was probably too harsh on him. While I don't like Magma Storm, he definitely has other good qualities that I should've mentioned.
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Use lava plume it is so much better imo. It has the same advantages as magma storm with admittedly not being guaranteed to proc the secondary effect and less power. However, burning something is just as good as trapping something against most pokemon (except regenerator mons but that is a small price to pay imo) and it is perfectly accurate unlike magma storm.
I agree with that and I use Lava Plume on him, though you do miss out on a lot of the appeal that Heatran has in theory as I mentioned in the section for it. Regenerator pokemon is a pretty big part of why people use Heatran!
Love your profile picture btw
+1 on the Lava Plume train. It seriously makes Heatran feel so much more consistent as an answer to a lot of mons. The amount of times I've burnt an incoming Tusk who thinks I'm trying to Magma Storm is nuts.
That sounds like an issue with your opponents' teams/play as players shouldn't be switching in Great Tusk into Heatran if they think Heatran is throwing out a Magma Storm considering how much damage Great Tusk takes from Magma Storm unless they want Great Tusk to not be able to take much hits for the rest of the match.
No, Lava Plume does not have the same advantages as Magma Storm as Magma Storm has higher burst damage and overall damage even after factoring in accuracy with the trapping damage from Magma Storm. The appeal of Magma Storm Heatran is to trap and potentially KO passive targets or force crucial chip on mons that can't immediately do heavy damage to Heatran even if they can pivot out with U-Turn or Volt Switch. Magma Storm Heatran is way better against fat than Lava Plume Heatran.
I understand if one might prefer Lava Plume over Magma Storm, but it is simply not correct to say that burning something is as good as trapping something against most Pokemon since many mons don't care about getting burned, and Magma Storm Heatran has a different role than Lava Plume Heatran a good deal of the time since with Magma Storm it's supposed to be a threat to fat teams
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Yeah you are right. I should have worded it differently. I meant that the lava plume burn proc does more in the long run imo than magma storm trap. I personally prefer lava plume since that way Heatran is more consistent and doesn't have to run will o wisp or flame body to spread burns.
Magma storm is for sure better at dealing with fat. I mostly condensed this down to regenerator mons since those are the fat mons that Heatran does the best against with magma storm but all fat pokemon hate magma storm (except probably Dondozo and Garganacl but I wouldn't actually know since I have never used Heatran against them). However, I think fat is the only teamstyle where magma storm is definitively better than lava plume. Against other teamstyles it definitely depends but I would personally rather go with the consistency of lava plume even if it doesn't always proc the burn.
Well, at least on the ladder, players in the midsection of the ladder and high ladder disagree with Lava Plume being better. From a burst damage perspective and with forcing significant chip in the short-term, Magma Storm is a superior option a lot of the time.
For 1695+ stats:
| Moves
| Earth Power 95.868%
| Stealth Rock 80.343%
| Magma Storm 75.428%
| Taunt 66.298%
| Will-O-Wisp 22.033%
| Lava Plume 20.343%
| Heavy Slam 12.367%
| Protect 10.895%
| Other 16.425%
For 1825+ stat:
| Moves |
| Earth Power 93.147% |
| Stealth Rock 87.383% |
| Magma Storm 78.090% |
| Taunt 49.354% |
| Will-O-Wisp 44.556% |
| Lava Plume 19.637% |
| Heavy Slam 10.453% |
| Other 17.380%
It also isn't necessarily true that fat is the only teamstyle in which Magma Storm is better than Lava Plume. If you happen to hit a mon with Ground-type coverage with Magma Storm, which will happen if one's switch-in to that is Ting-Lu, Moltres with Scorching Sands, or something like Landorus-Therian if you don't have anything else to take a Magma Storm, Heatran's Air Balloon will force the players using them to make more predictable moves as Lando-T or Moltres will want to use U-turn or risk taking more damage or getting Taunted in Moltres's case, which can be punished and is a useful interaction even against more offensive teams.
Additionally, Magma Storm reaches crucial damage thresholds that Lava Plume doesn't, which can mean the difference between forcing a Tera and not, so this is more than just about Lava Plume being more consistent on a turn-by-turn basis at what it does. It is rather reductive to say that Lava Plume is better except against fat given other use cases where Magma Storm is superior even if people who choose to use Magma Storm have to risk Magma Storm being unreliable, but that's a trade-off the players know about.
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The only reason I wouldn’t run Magma storm is if I’m running Zapdos on the same team. Relying on Hurricane and Magma Storm is just gambling with elo.
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Zama can't be S+, S+ is reserved for mons that literally have to be on your team or you are throwing. Like Primal-Groudon in that one Ubers tier.
Also what do you have against my boy Incineroar :(
I don't agree with that analogy of S+, other tiers don't seem to use it that way? For example, Mega Metagross is S+ in ORAS.
I simply think that Zamazenta is better than every other pokemon in the tier.
They turned my cute fire cat into a scary wrestle guy that shoots fire from his crotch. This is a disgrace to humanity.
No the literal definition of S+ is mandatory on every team. Very few tiers have it, since its not common at all, but adv pu and oras ubers both have S+ rankings and you need to use groudon/minun on every single team. I disagree with mega meta in oras being S+ in oras but thats beside the point. It still is used on most oras teams which idt fits the definition of S+. Zama is DEFINITELY not S+, in any way you look at it (idt its even S, but again, besides the point). If you look at tournament usage for minun in adv pu or primal groudon in oras ubers, youll see their usages being at least 90%, (and in minuns case, 100%).
I don't know, but ORAS OU feels a lot more relevant to a SV OU discussion than ADV PU.
Either way, neither are relevant in this case and if you ask smogon vr council members, 100 of them will give you the definition that i provided. S+ is literally only used for that one scenario with the only exception being mega metagross in ORAS, which is an outdated vr anyways. If you have an issue with the definition of S+ feel free to take it up with the vr council but thats what it’s used for. Alternatively, you can bump everything else down a tier and have zama as the only S, or even just have it at the top of S, but that’s not what S+ is for, and i think any mon that would even come close to the definition of S+ in SV OU would be broken since that is not healthy for a meta like this. I understand you’re new to the forums, but this is just how things work.I don't know, but ORAS OU feels a lot more relevant to a SV OU discussion than ADV PU.
On another note, there is a personal VR thread where you can feel free to post your personal VR aswell.
Didn't know that that thread existed, that's cool to know.
Either way, I put him there because I think he's better than everyone else. Not because he should be banned or whatever. I think it's fine to use your own definitions on your own list.
Ignoring the S+ debate I personally think Zamazenta should be S-. It is still really good but body press sets have a lot of 4mss issues and have a lot of trouble into Pecharunt (easily the best Zama check in the tier) while the AoA sets, while not weak by any means aren't particularly threatening compared to other strong physical attackers above A+ like Wogerpon and Dragonite. It also doesn't really have any utility moves aside from roar which is good but adds to the 4mss problem. I can understand why it is S currently but I don't think it is at the same level as something like Dragonite.
Dragonite has just as bad 4MSS, if not worse, and also happens to be a Tera merchant much more than Zama.
Dragonite is really good, but Zama offers a truly remarkable degree of role compression and efficiency that simply cannot be matched. It has some less good match ups like Pecha, yet the Mon demonstrates it still is able to perform despite their presence. There just isn’t another Pokémon that puts in the work and glues teams together the way Zama does, and that’s just considering ID sets which themselves come in several varieties, some that can let it work its way through many checks. AoA sets with boots are not to be underestimated, as they’re way more awkward to face in practice when your main check to it is a flying type that can get smacked by StoneEdge or Ice Fang. If Zama is LO and has Grassy Terrain, it’s even more threatening. And there’s the potential for Future Sight support.
Iron Treads is mad overrated, won't be surprised if it drops.
I don't think Zamazenta should be S+ because I feel like some sets are heavily reliant on the one time Dauntless Shield buff to do their job. It has amazing natural bulk but pure Fighting doesn't provide a ton of resistances to supplement said bulk, so if something happens to force Zama out it'll take more damage than it feels like it should when coming back in without the free +1. This can compromise its ability to check things consistently when using the more offensive sets over the course of a match. You can definitely Tera to patch this up but that's also very context dependent.
Maybe I'm just bad (entirely likely tbh) and it's obviously still an excellent and versatile team pick, but I feel there's a bit of nuance in how to position and pilot Zamazenta, which prevent it from being an S+ rank Pokémon for me.
Maybe I'm just bad (entirely likely tbh) and it's obviously still an excellent and versatile team pick, but I feel there's a bit of nuance in how to position and pilot Zamazenta, which prevent it from being an S+ rank Pokémon for me.
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Dragonite also has this issue (arguably more than Zamazenta), but I can see where you're coming from and it's a good point.
Youre responding to the wrong person and im frankly annoyed that im getting this ping because i know you didnt read my posts before commenting. I was giving the definition of S+, not saying “zama should be S+ because its mandatory on every team”. No one was saying that zama is mandatory, and i have literally said multiple times that i believe zama to be S-.
For the last time im going to reiterate: i do not think zama should be S+, nor should there be an S+ at all.
im saying that S+ aren't mandatory at all, see the part where i quoted
?????????????????????
1) theres no S+ mons in this tier
2) if youre referring to S+ mons in general, read my posts.
B+ -> A-Hydrapple completely walls wellspring. And kills fat teams
Is it a tera hog? Yes. Is it very similar as a nasty plot regenerator anti-wellspring to tornt-t? Absolutely. But against fat teams it destroys everything and completely Walling wellspring is enough in my opinion. I'll answer any questions