I am willing to bet that Dnite is going to get Mega Sableyed before Gen 10. I hope that is the case, there does not appear to be any imminent decline in how problematic it is.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
i am agreeing that dragonite is a bit ridiculous, but to be honest it has the exact same pattern that got most things banned. we all just accept the nonsense at this point
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Well, I am back after a long absence due to life being crazy. It's honestly still crazy, but I want to say some things. It was mostly going to beabout theorycrafting stuff. But first, I have a beef with (y)OU!
2. Raiku seems good.
Now for the thoerycrafting stuff I originally planned... I have experimented a bit with it, and while I was prevented from doing more because of real life, my initial impressions are that it is seriously underrated. 115 speed is quite good since you can actually be fast and outspeed the base 110s. The bulk is also quite good, especially for a mainly offensive mon with only one weakness. The coverage is quite good, too. You get moves like Scald and Aura Sphere. Tera can help you break the coverage further, giving you Bolt/Beam or something. I'm not ready to make an official post about it yet, but I still wanted to say something about it. Try this mon over Bolt sometime. It's interesting.
3. Unconventional spinners seem like real options to make teams work.
I was watching a somewhat old Pinkacross stream where he was trying to make a team fit and was struggling with role compression. It was Nat Dex in this case, but still. It got me thinking about unconventional spinners. So I've done a bit of looking into it. Quaq is decent. More testing is needed for the rest, but there seems to be something there for a few of the ones from lower tiers.
Tentracruel and Cylizar seem legitimately not bad. Tentracruel allows you to have a rare special wall as a spinner, and it also role compresses a T-spike absorber. Liquid Ooze is kinda hilarious into Sinistcha. The speed tier is quite decent for a defensive mon. It has good utility like Haze. It has Flip Turn, but can punish a possible Wellspring switch with Poison moves. I wouldn't put it on every team or even most teams, but I do think there is a case to be made for it on certain teams that need that specific sort of role compression. And it might make more types of teams viable.
I have tested Cyclizar before. It works because it hits Ghold. It actually has two primary ways to do this, with one being Knock Off and the other being Fire moves like Temper Flare or Overheat. Regenerator let's it come in more time than you might expect. You can either run AV or go more offensive. But I prefer offensive pressure to hit Ghost types and some Steel types.
I have also tested a non Rapid Spinning mixed LO set in the past, which was surprisingly decent at the time.
Cyclizar @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Double-Edge
- Knock Off
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
LO Double Edge isn't actually a big deal to run when you have Regenerator. This makes that + coverage moves fairly spammable. This was clunky, but it worked decently. For role compression, replacing a move here with Rapid Spin might work. Although, I must caution that this was awhile ago and I haven't properly tested it.
There was also a theorycraft I made of Tatsugiri as a decent Wellspring check with Storm Drain. Without getting into details, I went for slow, bulky set with 333 in HP and special Attack while having over 200 in both defenses. Here is this experimental theorycraft:
Tatsugiri @ Assault Vest
Ability: Storm Drain
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel (Poison or Fire might also be good)
EVs: 224 HP / 176 Def / 108 SpA
Modest Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Mirror Coat
- Counter
- Draco Meteor
No, I don't know if this is good as it hasn't been tested yet. No, I probably wouldn't run both Counter and Mirror Coat on the same set in the final version. I just thought it was interesting that it got both. Will it work? Maybe. Maybe not. This one is the biggest stretch of the 3, but I feel it was at least worth mentioning since Wellspring is such a menace. A spinner that counters Water Ivy Cudgel and (with better tech) maybe even Flip Turn Mola might be decent. Walking Wake is also a consideration here. I really want to find time to test and refine this, but if I can't, I'm hoping somebody on here can.
4. About Mukidori...
It is consistently seen as trash and the worst of its Toxic Chain trio. But did you know it gets Psychic Noise? One move, you have a chance to badly Poison and prevent healing at the same time. This alone can make it work as like half a wallbreaker. Or even Throat Spray because it is a sound move. You hate Steel and Dark types, but still. Tera exists maybe.
You can also do that thing where you stack Poison chances, like Muk does with poison Touch and, say, Poison Jab. You can use Toxic Chain + Sludge Bomb for double 30% chances. You also get interesting moves like U-turn, Fake Out, Clear Smog, Hex, Venoshock, and Trick.
The natural special bulk isn't as good a Fezandipiti, but 88 base HP and 90 spdef isn't bad. An AV set could maybe be run. And while you aren't a switch into Zama by any means, you do stop ID + Body press spam as long as Crunch doesn't get you.
So far, I cannot say I have had any decent OU success with it. Doubles with Fake Out and Sludge Wave was kinda interesting, though. I think there could be something here for OU. And stubbornly, I keep trying to figure it out. We'll see if it is promise or my delusion.
2. Raiku seems good.
Now for the thoerycrafting stuff I originally planned... I have experimented a bit with it, and while I was prevented from doing more because of real life, my initial impressions are that it is seriously underrated. 115 speed is quite good since you can actually be fast and outspeed the base 110s. The bulk is also quite good, especially for a mainly offensive mon with only one weakness. The coverage is quite good, too. You get moves like Scald and Aura Sphere. Tera can help you break the coverage further, giving you Bolt/Beam or something. I'm not ready to make an official post about it yet, but I still wanted to say something about it. Try this mon over Bolt sometime. It's interesting.
3. Unconventional spinners seem like real options to make teams work.
I was watching a somewhat old Pinkacross stream where he was trying to make a team fit and was struggling with role compression. It was Nat Dex in this case, but still. It got me thinking about unconventional spinners. So I've done a bit of looking into it. Quaq is decent. More testing is needed for the rest, but there seems to be something there for a few of the ones from lower tiers.
Tentracruel and Cylizar seem legitimately not bad. Tentracruel allows you to have a rare special wall as a spinner, and it also role compresses a T-spike absorber. Liquid Ooze is kinda hilarious into Sinistcha. The speed tier is quite decent for a defensive mon. It has good utility like Haze. It has Flip Turn, but can punish a possible Wellspring switch with Poison moves. I wouldn't put it on every team or even most teams, but I do think there is a case to be made for it on certain teams that need that specific sort of role compression. And it might make more types of teams viable.
I have tested Cyclizar before. It works because it hits Ghold. It actually has two primary ways to do this, with one being Knock Off and the other being Fire moves like Temper Flare or Overheat. Regenerator let's it come in more time than you might expect. You can either run AV or go more offensive. But I prefer offensive pressure to hit Ghost types and some Steel types.
I have also tested a non Rapid Spinning mixed LO set in the past, which was surprisingly decent at the time.
Cyclizar @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Double-Edge
- Knock Off
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
LO Double Edge isn't actually a big deal to run when you have Regenerator. This makes that + coverage moves fairly spammable. This was clunky, but it worked decently. For role compression, replacing a move here with Rapid Spin might work. Although, I must caution that this was awhile ago and I haven't properly tested it.
There was also a theorycraft I made of Tatsugiri as a decent Wellspring check with Storm Drain. Without getting into details, I went for slow, bulky set with 333 in HP and special Attack while having over 200 in both defenses. Here is this experimental theorycraft:
Tatsugiri @ Assault Vest
Ability: Storm Drain
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel (Poison or Fire might also be good)
EVs: 224 HP / 176 Def / 108 SpA
Modest Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Mirror Coat
- Counter
- Draco Meteor
No, I don't know if this is good as it hasn't been tested yet. No, I probably wouldn't run both Counter and Mirror Coat on the same set in the final version. I just thought it was interesting that it got both. Will it work? Maybe. Maybe not. This one is the biggest stretch of the 3, but I feel it was at least worth mentioning since Wellspring is such a menace. A spinner that counters Water Ivy Cudgel and (with better tech) maybe even Flip Turn Mola might be decent. Walking Wake is also a consideration here. I really want to find time to test and refine this, but if I can't, I'm hoping somebody on here can.
4. About Mukidori...
It is consistently seen as trash and the worst of its Toxic Chain trio. But did you know it gets Psychic Noise? One move, you have a chance to badly Poison and prevent healing at the same time. This alone can make it work as like half a wallbreaker. Or even Throat Spray because it is a sound move. You hate Steel and Dark types, but still. Tera exists maybe.
You can also do that thing where you stack Poison chances, like Muk does with poison Touch and, say, Poison Jab. You can use Toxic Chain + Sludge Bomb for double 30% chances. You also get interesting moves like U-turn, Fake Out, Clear Smog, Hex, Venoshock, and Trick.
The natural special bulk isn't as good a Fezandipiti, but 88 base HP and 90 spdef isn't bad. An AV set could maybe be run. And while you aren't a switch into Zama by any means, you do stop ID + Body press spam as long as Crunch doesn't get you.
So far, I cannot say I have had any decent OU success with it. Doubles with Fake Out and Sludge Wave was kinda interesting, though. I think there could be something here for OU. And stubbornly, I keep trying to figure it out. We'll see if it is promise or my delusion.
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I wanted to add onto this quick, as I feel Munkidori is a generally slept on Pokemon and has been since its introduction. Munkidori's 342 speed with 252 Timid speed ties with 252 with +nature Enamorus and Iron Treads; additionally, Munkidori has the same SpA stat as Kyurem. Munkidori also has acceptable 88/90 special bulk.
Munkidori @ Black Sludge/Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison/Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Parting Shot
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb/Sludge Wave
I've always been partial to Black Sludge Parting Shot + 3 Attacks Munkidori, and I think Toxic Chain Psychic Noise, as you mentioned, is really nice anti-stall tech that could fit on numerous different team archetypes. Munkidori does have a lot of additional offensive/tech options like Calm Mind, STAB Clear Smog, STAB Future Sight, Grass Knot, Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball, STAB Stored Power, Taunt, Trick, and U-Turn. I do wish it had access to Knock Off for some helpful utility (it feels like it should have access to Knock Off), but overall, Munkidori definitely deserves some additional exploration.
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Future Sight + Psychic Noise has always seemed an interesting combination to me assuming you're not dealing with Dark or bulky Psychic Resists (admittedly something we do have a decent number of in OU), for sort of a similar opposite reason to FS + Teleport type strats. If healing is shut off, it becomes a lot harder to stall out Munkidori even while resisting/walling its Attacks, but in theory anything that would stay in against it is your best answer to its Psychic + Toxic Chain (including on FS if it hasn't switched) threat and thus the best suited to tank Future Sight when it lands.I wanted to add onto this quick, as I feel Munkidori is a generally slept on Pokemon and has been since its introduction. Munkidori's 342 speed with 252 Timid speed ties with 252 with +nature Enamorus and Iron Treads; additionally, Munkidori has the same SpA stat as Kyurem. Munkidori also has acceptable 88/90 special bulk.
Munkidori @ Black Sludge/Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison/Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Parting Shot
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb/Sludge Wave
I've always been partial to Black Sludge Parting Shot + 3 Attacks Munkidori, and I think Toxic Chain Psychic Noise, as you mentioned, is really nice anti-stall tech that could fit on numerous different team archetypes. Munkidori does have a lot of additional offensive/tech options like Calm Mind, STAB Clear Smog, STAB Future Sight, Grass Knot, Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball, STAB Stored Power, Taunt, Trick, and U-Turn. I do wish it had access to Knock Off for some helpful utility (it feels like it should have access to Knock Off), but overall, Munkidori definitely deserves some additional exploration.
252 SpA Munkidori Psychic Noise vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 84-99 (21.3 - 25.1%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Munkidori Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This 53-65% isn't shabby damage for Pivot Glowking if it's not getting Regenerator off when it exits the field due to the PN effect, but what on its team is going to take the Future Sight hit any better? And this is all while focusing on Munkidori itself staying on the field (Glowking struggles to 2HKO without Psyshock, mostly threatening Thunder Wave), as opposed to a Pivot or even Hard Switch in response to the check itself that creates the old "Dark or Steel gets hit by an attack, anything else takes the FS" conundrum.
This is by no means a tech or combo exclusive to Munkidori, but it does have some unique traits in tandem between significant breaking power without being made of Paper (moreso styrofoam), and a relatively fast pivot vs a slow one that provides Utility whether through Toxic on U-Turn or offensive debuffs on Parting Shot, putting even MORE pressure to switch checks around and rack up Hazard damage or lose positioning on the FS hit. Also unique among Poison spreaders (whether direct or using Toxic Spikes from teammates), Munkidori is VERY good at threatening typical Hazard removal/ignorance thanks to STAB Psychic Noise into Great Tusk (Max HP is usually OHKO'd with any Hazard)
i think u-turn would fit better over parting shot. it's the same kind of pivoty midground click but it also has a 30% chance to toxic whatever's in front of you, which you can use to exert more pressure while you're building your momentum. the attack drops from parting shot are nice but if you're already fast-pivoting into something it should probably be tough enough to tank whatever hit you're expecting anyway. parting shot also gets shut down by fast taunt (unlikely but possible) and can be screwed over by several switch-ins if predicted properly, such as clear body pult, hatterene if your opponent is clinically insane, and of course gholdengo (which is by far the biggest hurdle for this particular set)I wanted to add onto this quick, as I feel Munkidori is a generally slept on Pokemon and has been since its introduction. Munkidori's 342 speed with 252 Timid speed ties with 252 with +nature Enamorus and Iron Treads; additionally, Munkidori has the same SpA stat as Kyurem. Munkidori also has acceptable 88/90 special bulk.
Munkidori @ Black Sludge/Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison/Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Parting Shot
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb/Sludge Wave
I've always been partial to Black Sludge Parting Shot + 3 Attacks Munkidori, and I think Toxic Chain Psychic Noise, as you mentioned, is really nice anti-stall tech that could fit on numerous different team archetypes. Munkidori does have a lot of additional offensive/tech options like Calm Mind, STAB Clear Smog, STAB Future Sight, Grass Knot, Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball, STAB Stored Power, Taunt, Trick, and U-Turn. I do wish it had access to Knock Off for some helpful utility (it feels like it should have access to Knock Off), but overall, Munkidori definitely deserves some additional exploration.
I know there are tournaments going on so nothing can be done right now, but I think Dragonite at least needs to be suspected. It’s Tera flying Tera blast sets are extremely tough to counter barring a few distinct mons like Corv, Ting, and Molt, the latter two essentially require a trade to phase it out. Corv can win but will be heavily chipped with brave bird+tera blast damage and has to watch out for encore. There’s a surprising amount of variety for that one set. I’ve seen Sub leftovers behind screens, encore, Lum berry, roost, and leftovers+ 3 attacks. If played right, it’s basically guaranteed to make progress for the rest of your team and requires your opponent to preserve mons that take a lot of chip through out a game in the first place. This is not to mention all the other Dnite sets out there.
I should add if there’s proper support, if the community doesn’t think there’s enough there than it is what it is. I’d be curious to see the results of a survey in a month or so.
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i don't think that has much to do with it. it's more that there's no real need to move fast right now. things have had a lot of time to settle down since the beginning of dlc2, which means it's better to only take action when it won't cause abrupt meta shifts during a major tournament. in early metas it's generally ok to do stuff in the middle of tours because everything is changing super fast anyway so one more meta shift to adapt to isn't going to fuck anyone over too bad, but when a meta has cooled off it's a little unfair to tour players to shake things up with a suspect mid-tour. like imagine if all your building and prep is done with dnite in mind and suddenly there's a dnite suspect, now all your teams might be obsolete in two weeks and you've got to both prepare for the possibility of dnite leaving and dnite staying. i'm not really a supporter of tour schedules dominating the timetable of surveys (which i think should be held monthly/trimonthly depending on the frequency of tier shifts), but i think it's fine for them to dictate the timetable of tiering action after all the truly urgent action is taken
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while I do like the concept of Future Sight + Psynoise, I have to point out that Psynoise doesn't actually stop Regenerator from healing the target. iirc Regenerator heals its user when they switch in, not when they switch out. so Munkidori is really only doing 20-32%.
What are the best answers to Tera blast flying Dnite that people have found? Corv seems to be the only obvious one to me and it still loses to encore. I also don’t want to use Corv on every team
The best way to handle Tera Blast Flying Dragonite is to use Foul Play Pecharunt, burn it with a bulky mon (Rotom-Wash, Moltres, or Weezing-Galar [probably need Grassy Terrain support or to pop your Tera] for example) and then switch to something that can both threaten Dragonite and take a Tera Blast Flying, such as Kyurem, Pecharunt, Zapdos with Thunderbolt instead of Volt Switch, Offensive Lando-T, Iron Hands, Iron Boulder, Ursaluna, Thundurus-Therian, Mandibuzz, or Umbreon.
Or alternatively, you use Tickle Alomomola (which is a crapshoot if your opponent has Gholdengo) and pivot to something that can deal huge damage to Dragonite.
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Zapdos is another one that
You won't be able to find a hard answer for every variant, even Rotom-W and Volt Switch Zapdos can lose to Substitute (+ Roost) variants
See I’ve run into sub behind screens a lot so tickle and status feel like a risky turn if it ends up being sub. I’ll try foul play Pech though!
I want to follow up on the Munkidori topic with some theorycrafting since I have done a bit lot more thinking about it. I spent too much time thinking about it and now probably have none to test it. But that's the way it goes. Anyways, to start I came up with a list of mons that could counter the Psychic Noise strat. Let's start with types. The 3 types that resist Psychic moves are Psychic, Dark, and Steel. The 2 types that can't be poisoned are Steel (again) and Poison itself.
Of these 4 types, I think we can eliminate half of them. Poison types (mostly) take supereffective damage from your Psychic STAB anyways. Psychic types aren't really stoping your Poison status or anti-healing. So they aren't the safest switches in most cases. Then there are abilities like Poison Heal.
Let's look at possible exceptions:
Speaking of Dark and Steel types, these seem like the biggest threats to this strategy. Dark types completely stop damage from Psychic Noise, so none of the secondary effects here will proc. But at least Dark types can mostly be hit by other moves, allowing for the Poison chance. Steel types are probably worse since, in addition to resisting Psychic STAB, they are immune to Poison STAB and status.
Important Dark Types:
Ting-Lu and Tyranitar are perhaps the scariest on this list since they have boosted spdef and resist your other STAB, too. Fortunately, they are slower and you can just U-tun out. The faster mons will force you out, but they aren't as easy to switch into you in the first place. Lokix is especially threatening due to Tinted Lense, though. It destroys some team comps, so you need to be a bit careful in the builder to account for it.
The good news is that Dark types are hit by other moves. So you can still get a Poison proc on a Sludge Bomb or U-turn, making them not always the most free switch-ins to your attacks. The bad news is many stall mons already use Tera Dark because of the stallbreaking potential of many Psychic moves like Psyshock or Stored Power. So this needs to be accounted for.
Important Steel Types:
The biggest threat to me seem like Gambit and Ghold. They are everywhere. Ghold cannot be trapped and Gambit has the scariest Sucker Punch in the game. For others, Heatran, Tinka, and Corv can be quite bulky, especially with spdef investment. Treads can be faster and EQ you, which is obviously very bad. It's probably generally safe to switch into your moves, too. Fortunately, Treads can often be worn down through the game.
I also want to eliminate the idea of Tera Ground right here. The metal birds are both immune, Air Balloon is common, and Scizor is neutral. I don't believe hitting Heatran is worth the worse matchups into the others. There are better options to hit more of these mons.
3 main Tera ideas came to mind:
A. Tera Ghost
The first and weakest idea was Tera Ghost Hex to hit ghosts, Glowking, and Gliscor. I'll get this out of the way by bringing up the Gliscor Calcs.
With Timid Nature, Tera Ghost Choice Specs Hex does about 80.1%-94.6% to specially defensive Gliscor (244 HP and 228 spdef EVs). This is an expensive investment to still not 1HKO And it is only 53.4%-63% without Tera Ghost.
Choice Specs Psychic Noise does 46-54.5%, which makes Specs Hex seem rather useless here since it's 2 hits anyways. You can maybe use Rocks, but Gliscor Heals some damage on the switch in if it lives. It still lives on a low role with Tera Ghost after Rocks.
With Choice Scarf (neutral power) Tera Ghost Hex, it's 53.1%-63% to the same Gliscor and only 33.5%-42% without Tera Ghost.
Psychic Noise for the same item is 30.9%-36.6%. You won't even get a 2hko without chip.
The LO Hex Calcs are 69%-82.1% with Tera Ghost and 46%-54.5% without it. The Psychic Noise calcs are 40.3 - 47.7%.
Why does this matter? Because while Gliscor doesn't like taking a Psychic Noise, you don't like taking EQ and/or Knock Off from it. The way I see it, you have about 1 attack to KO Gliscor with Hex or it's better to click Noise. This is especially true on possible choiced sets where you cannot switch attacks. Even if you can, you probably only hit Gliscor twice if you get it on the switch in. If it gets a clean switch in, you might be force out if you can't KO it in 1 move.
Specs never 1 shots without chip, so you might as well 2 shot with Psychic Noise. This makes Hex essentially useless on the Specs set.
Scarf or neutral doesn't do enough damage to even 2 shot without Tera Ghost. I don't think you burn Tera for a 2 shot.
LO is maybe more interesting. You can switch from Psychic Noise spam to a Hex. But I don't think Hex even has a place elsewhere. Maybe Throat Spray, which would favor never switching out. I don't think that is the best on this mon.
Also, I don't think it's worth running Modest when there are too many things you need to be faster than. Maybe for a Scarf set, but Scarf doesn't have enough power anyways. So all these were done with Timid. It's also possiblre that the Gliscor isn't spdef, but Hex is a matchup fish at that point.
Now for other calcs:
AV Glowking takes 45.6% - 53.8% from Specs Hex, but only 30.4% - 36% without Tera Ghost. It's only a chance to 2HKO if you go full throttle with Specs and Tera. LO and less power never 2HKOs, so it's not even worth considering.
However, you can 2 shot after a status like burn or para and Ghost Tera Hex has a 1HKO chance. Against full spdef G-king, you can do like 70-80% 2 shot and a guarnteed 1HKO after Tera. So it isn't the worst. But this does mean you need further status spam support, which may not be the best trade off for your team.
Ghold with spdef investment gets 2 shot by Hex against most sets with Tera Ghost guarenteeing it even against more spdef sets. You can 1 shot a Ghold with no defensive investestments after Tera Ghost, but these Ghold can be threatening in return. Again, you need to 1 shot since it may do just that to you with Shadow Ball. Because Gholdengo cannot be statused, the Hex damage doesn't double twice. So this is the best you get. It depends on the set and maybe the chip, but this might not be consistent.
Hex could maye be swapped for Shadow Ball, but this doesn't do enough to Glowking or Gliscor. To spare some further walls of text, Iron Crown also tends to need a burn or para status to get wrecked by Hex. Shadow Ball is a 2 shot at best, depending on the set.
Conclusions on Hex:
I don't think it's worth running. There is a little promise, but nowhere near enough to justify all this investment. You need Tera and you likely need burn and/or para status spam in addition to Munki's poison. It makes your matchup even worse into Dark types and most Steel types don't care about it too much. Shadow Ball is maybe interesting as a coverage move, but it is a bit lacking in raw power to rely on it to turn most bad matchups.
B. Tera Fire
I was reminded for the Solgaleo ladder just how good Psychic/Fire is offensively. It's not perfect, but it is pretty good and hits most of the Steels. Heatran is an issue. However, I definitely feel this is better into more Steel types as a whole than Ground. It also hits more of the meta supereffectively or neutrally.
The bad Dark type matchups can be U-turned on, especially slower mons like Ttar and Lu. Hamurott is a bit of an issue if it is Scarf or Sucker, but the lack of Pursuit means you can switch out when you need to. This and set scouting probably works well enough.
The downside is you need to rely on Tera Blast since Munki gets no Fire moves. Heatran also takes your lunch money. I don't have time for all the calcs or testing I would need to determine this. My instincts say that this is likely my go to. Feel free to show me if that's wrong.
C. Tera Fighting:
The advantadge here is you hit both Dark and Steel types. Not Ghold, Gliscor, or Glowking, though, which are all resists. It is also only taking neutrally by Corv, Skarm, Scizor, Tinka, Crown, Mandi, and Hoopa-U. (Also Lokix I guess but that is squishy as heck.) The bigger problem there is just how many of the Steel types are only neutral. This makes Fighting more of a counter for Dark types than most of the Steel types.
However, it is the best into Gambit. The Dark resistance is generally nice for other Dark types like Hamurott. Tera Dark is also a major factor on stall. Hitting that is important.
Tera Fighting can either be used with Tera Blast or Focus Miss. Neither option is perfect. I also feel there are simply too many pokemon this misses. Maybe it would be less egregious with Magnet Pull strats, but is that even enough? Like half of the 21 mons I listed are either neutral, resist it, or Gholdengo. This isn't answering most of your counters well enough. If I'm making a Tera Blast reliant set, Fire seems generally better. If I'm making a Focus Miss set, I'm likely losing a lot of games to misses.
Theorycrafting Time!
To start with, we need to talk speed. Munkidori's 106 speed tier has an awkward tie with Iron Treads, which often also runs BE Speed and/or Rapid Spin. I don't think it's worth EVing to keep up with this one. There is also Enam, but that could easily be Scarf or Timid Specs. Meh.
The next one on the list is Iron Crown, which is also often speed boosting. However, phasing this out once likely takes care of that a little more easily than Treads. To beat a Timid Crown's 324 max speed, you need to invest 192 EVs and a Timid Nature to get that 325.
The next important milestone is Gliscor and Kyruem at base 95 speed. Fully invested +speed Natures hit 317 speed. The amount of EVs you save from investing only the 168 EV instead of the 192 for Timid Crown probably isn't enough to be worth the change. However, you do hit a jump point at 168. That's nice I guess.
To me, it is basically a non-starter to not be faster than stuff like Sub/Tect Kyurem and Jolly SD Gliscor. So I never considered Modest in my Calcs further up. However, I still want to look at it briefly. The next most important OU threat is Lando-T at base 91 speed. It could be Scarf, maybe, but this can be scouted. The rest you can outrun. A +speed T hits 309 speed max, meaning you can hit 310. Modest Munki hits 311 max, so you can invest 248 to hit 310 I guess. But since you are also investing 252 (or why go for the extra powr) in special attack, this leaves less EVs for anything else.
With a Timid set, you can hit 325 speed, have full special attack EVs, and still hit 333 HP with the remaining EVs. With a Modest set, you are entirely invested in speed and power to still be slower than Timid Sub/Tect Kyurem. If you are thinking of running any sort of extra bulk or utility, Modest ain't it. If you aren't comfortable giving up the speed tier to some Kyurem and Gliscor sets, modest ain't it.
What modest is for is breaking slower cores slightly better. This might be Munki's primary role anyways. I still don't love the tradeoffs based on EV efficiency and relevant speed tiers. However, I think it is important to look at both. So let's theorcraft some sets for both...
Timd AV:
Munkidori @ Assault Vest
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic Noise
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Tera Blast
I made this set to show off the better EV efficiency. It could be Calm Mind, too. But I think I'd rather not take the turn to setup with this mon, which might not always be staying in. AV is also better to show off 4 attacks. Dropping Sludge Bomb was tough, but Fake Out does work.
Modest Wallbreaker:
Munkidori @ Life Orb
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 8 Def / 252 SpA / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast/Tera Blast
- Nasty Plot
I took advantadge of the stronger hitting nature to try out Ghost/Fighting coverage. The hope is using NP over Tera Ghost for even more power works better into Ghold and Glowking. And also that Gliscor gets 2 hit by Psychic Noise after the power increase. I haven't run all the Modest calcs, though, so I might be wrong. I ran too many calcs already. There's no time left for it. At this point? If it's wrong, it's wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong, though.
Either way, there needed to be a reason to run modest over Timid since Timid is better at defense or utility. That reason is damage. What damage combinations can Modest run that Timid can't? I think this might be it.
Choice Scarf:
Munkidori @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic Noise
- U-turn
- Trick
- Sludge Bomb
With Munki's speed tier and Trick, it's not a bad option. Fast U-turn with Poison chance is also nice. I didn't go over the speed tiers for Scarf since they are laregly the same. Wanna outspeed Scarf Lando? Hit 310 speed and add Scarf yourself. Same for BE Speed Crown and 325 speed. Agility Crown smokes you, but I'm guessing you aren't likely to stay in on that.
To go into more detail, 325 speed + Scarf gets you at about 487.5 speed. The base 125s like Darkrai git 383 with a + speed Nature. Pult hits up to 421 unless boosted. Nothing else unboosted matters besides D-speed. It can outrun you with a +speed nature, but this is likely not worth fussing over. However, 342 speed is a Timid Munki's max before scarf. With Scarf, you hit up to 513 speed. An unboosted + speed D-speed hits 504 speed max. To go past that, you need 337 speed before the 1.5 times Scarf multiplier. That takes 237 EVs and the + speed Nature. At this point, you may as well be at full speed investment. This isn't efficient. You aren't hitting enough of the boosted tier milestones with full speed investment Scarf. You only need the same 325 speed for Crown and there isn't much relevant above that you that you can outrun with more speed investment. Hence why I stopped at 325 speed. I don't feel playing for speed ties with speed boosted Treads and Scarf Enam is great, either.
Conclusion:
I hope this is a better starting point for Munkidori experiments than I had last comment. There is a reason why we don't see Munkidoris just spamming Psychic Noise everywhere in OU. I still see potential, though. While the analyses isn't complete, there is a decent amount now. It does make it a bit clearer how to approach some of those problems. Maybe.
Of these 4 types, I think we can eliminate half of them. Poison types (mostly) take supereffective damage from your Psychic STAB anyways. Psychic types aren't really stoping your Poison status or anti-healing. So they aren't the safest switches in most cases. Then there are abilities like Poison Heal.
Let's look at possible exceptions:
- Glowking - This mon is a staple special wall that isn't weak to Psychic and can't be poisoned. It can play around Psychic Noise in many cases.
- Gliscor - It's the only relevant Poison Heal mon. It has good bulk and you don't like taking its attacks.
Speaking of Dark and Steel types, these seem like the biggest threats to this strategy. Dark types completely stop damage from Psychic Noise, so none of the secondary effects here will proc. But at least Dark types can mostly be hit by other moves, allowing for the Poison chance. Steel types are probably worse since, in addition to resisting Psychic STAB, they are immune to Poison STAB and status.
Important Dark Types:
- Darkrai
- Ting-Lu
- Hamurott
- Tyranitar
- Hoopa-U
- Weavile
- Meowscarada
- Lokix
- Mandibuzz
- Greninja (I guess)
Ting-Lu and Tyranitar are perhaps the scariest on this list since they have boosted spdef and resist your other STAB, too. Fortunately, they are slower and you can just U-tun out. The faster mons will force you out, but they aren't as easy to switch into you in the first place. Lokix is especially threatening due to Tinted Lense, though. It destroys some team comps, so you need to be a bit careful in the builder to account for it.
The good news is that Dark types are hit by other moves. So you can still get a Poison proc on a Sludge Bomb or U-turn, making them not always the most free switch-ins to your attacks. The bad news is many stall mons already use Tera Dark because of the stallbreaking potential of many Psychic moves like Psyshock or Stored Power. So this needs to be accounted for.
Important Steel Types:
- Corviknight
- Gholdengo
- Heatran
- Iron Crown
- Iron Treads
- Kingambit
- Scizor
- Skarmory
- Tinkaton
The biggest threat to me seem like Gambit and Ghold. They are everywhere. Ghold cannot be trapped and Gambit has the scariest Sucker Punch in the game. For others, Heatran, Tinka, and Corv can be quite bulky, especially with spdef investment. Treads can be faster and EQ you, which is obviously very bad. It's probably generally safe to switch into your moves, too. Fortunately, Treads can often be worn down through the game.
I also want to eliminate the idea of Tera Ground right here. The metal birds are both immune, Air Balloon is common, and Scizor is neutral. I don't believe hitting Heatran is worth the worse matchups into the others. There are better options to hit more of these mons.
3 main Tera ideas came to mind:
A. Tera Ghost
The first and weakest idea was Tera Ghost Hex to hit ghosts, Glowking, and Gliscor. I'll get this out of the way by bringing up the Gliscor Calcs.
With Timid Nature, Tera Ghost Choice Specs Hex does about 80.1%-94.6% to specially defensive Gliscor (244 HP and 228 spdef EVs). This is an expensive investment to still not 1HKO And it is only 53.4%-63% without Tera Ghost.
Choice Specs Psychic Noise does 46-54.5%, which makes Specs Hex seem rather useless here since it's 2 hits anyways. You can maybe use Rocks, but Gliscor Heals some damage on the switch in if it lives. It still lives on a low role with Tera Ghost after Rocks.
With Choice Scarf (neutral power) Tera Ghost Hex, it's 53.1%-63% to the same Gliscor and only 33.5%-42% without Tera Ghost.
Psychic Noise for the same item is 30.9%-36.6%. You won't even get a 2hko without chip.
The LO Hex Calcs are 69%-82.1% with Tera Ghost and 46%-54.5% without it. The Psychic Noise calcs are 40.3 - 47.7%.
Why does this matter? Because while Gliscor doesn't like taking a Psychic Noise, you don't like taking EQ and/or Knock Off from it. The way I see it, you have about 1 attack to KO Gliscor with Hex or it's better to click Noise. This is especially true on possible choiced sets where you cannot switch attacks. Even if you can, you probably only hit Gliscor twice if you get it on the switch in. If it gets a clean switch in, you might be force out if you can't KO it in 1 move.
Specs never 1 shots without chip, so you might as well 2 shot with Psychic Noise. This makes Hex essentially useless on the Specs set.
Scarf or neutral doesn't do enough damage to even 2 shot without Tera Ghost. I don't think you burn Tera for a 2 shot.
LO is maybe more interesting. You can switch from Psychic Noise spam to a Hex. But I don't think Hex even has a place elsewhere. Maybe Throat Spray, which would favor never switching out. I don't think that is the best on this mon.
Also, I don't think it's worth running Modest when there are too many things you need to be faster than. Maybe for a Scarf set, but Scarf doesn't have enough power anyways. So all these were done with Timid. It's also possiblre that the Gliscor isn't spdef, but Hex is a matchup fish at that point.
Now for other calcs:
AV Glowking takes 45.6% - 53.8% from Specs Hex, but only 30.4% - 36% without Tera Ghost. It's only a chance to 2HKO if you go full throttle with Specs and Tera. LO and less power never 2HKOs, so it's not even worth considering.
However, you can 2 shot after a status like burn or para and Ghost Tera Hex has a 1HKO chance. Against full spdef G-king, you can do like 70-80% 2 shot and a guarnteed 1HKO after Tera. So it isn't the worst. But this does mean you need further status spam support, which may not be the best trade off for your team.
Ghold with spdef investment gets 2 shot by Hex against most sets with Tera Ghost guarenteeing it even against more spdef sets. You can 1 shot a Ghold with no defensive investestments after Tera Ghost, but these Ghold can be threatening in return. Again, you need to 1 shot since it may do just that to you with Shadow Ball. Because Gholdengo cannot be statused, the Hex damage doesn't double twice. So this is the best you get. It depends on the set and maybe the chip, but this might not be consistent.
Hex could maye be swapped for Shadow Ball, but this doesn't do enough to Glowking or Gliscor. To spare some further walls of text, Iron Crown also tends to need a burn or para status to get wrecked by Hex. Shadow Ball is a 2 shot at best, depending on the set.
Conclusions on Hex:
I don't think it's worth running. There is a little promise, but nowhere near enough to justify all this investment. You need Tera and you likely need burn and/or para status spam in addition to Munki's poison. It makes your matchup even worse into Dark types and most Steel types don't care about it too much. Shadow Ball is maybe interesting as a coverage move, but it is a bit lacking in raw power to rely on it to turn most bad matchups.
B. Tera Fire
I was reminded for the Solgaleo ladder just how good Psychic/Fire is offensively. It's not perfect, but it is pretty good and hits most of the Steels. Heatran is an issue. However, I definitely feel this is better into more Steel types as a whole than Ground. It also hits more of the meta supereffectively or neutrally.
The bad Dark type matchups can be U-turned on, especially slower mons like Ttar and Lu. Hamurott is a bit of an issue if it is Scarf or Sucker, but the lack of Pursuit means you can switch out when you need to. This and set scouting probably works well enough.
The downside is you need to rely on Tera Blast since Munki gets no Fire moves. Heatran also takes your lunch money. I don't have time for all the calcs or testing I would need to determine this. My instincts say that this is likely my go to. Feel free to show me if that's wrong.
C. Tera Fighting:
The advantadge here is you hit both Dark and Steel types. Not Ghold, Gliscor, or Glowking, though, which are all resists. It is also only taking neutrally by Corv, Skarm, Scizor, Tinka, Crown, Mandi, and Hoopa-U. (Also Lokix I guess but that is squishy as heck.) The bigger problem there is just how many of the Steel types are only neutral. This makes Fighting more of a counter for Dark types than most of the Steel types.
However, it is the best into Gambit. The Dark resistance is generally nice for other Dark types like Hamurott. Tera Dark is also a major factor on stall. Hitting that is important.
Tera Fighting can either be used with Tera Blast or Focus Miss. Neither option is perfect. I also feel there are simply too many pokemon this misses. Maybe it would be less egregious with Magnet Pull strats, but is that even enough? Like half of the 21 mons I listed are either neutral, resist it, or Gholdengo. This isn't answering most of your counters well enough. If I'm making a Tera Blast reliant set, Fire seems generally better. If I'm making a Focus Miss set, I'm likely losing a lot of games to misses.
Theorycrafting Time!
To start with, we need to talk speed. Munkidori's 106 speed tier has an awkward tie with Iron Treads, which often also runs BE Speed and/or Rapid Spin. I don't think it's worth EVing to keep up with this one. There is also Enam, but that could easily be Scarf or Timid Specs. Meh.
The next one on the list is Iron Crown, which is also often speed boosting. However, phasing this out once likely takes care of that a little more easily than Treads. To beat a Timid Crown's 324 max speed, you need to invest 192 EVs and a Timid Nature to get that 325.
The next important milestone is Gliscor and Kyruem at base 95 speed. Fully invested +speed Natures hit 317 speed. The amount of EVs you save from investing only the 168 EV instead of the 192 for Timid Crown probably isn't enough to be worth the change. However, you do hit a jump point at 168. That's nice I guess.
To me, it is basically a non-starter to not be faster than stuff like Sub/Tect Kyurem and Jolly SD Gliscor. So I never considered Modest in my Calcs further up. However, I still want to look at it briefly. The next most important OU threat is Lando-T at base 91 speed. It could be Scarf, maybe, but this can be scouted. The rest you can outrun. A +speed T hits 309 speed max, meaning you can hit 310. Modest Munki hits 311 max, so you can invest 248 to hit 310 I guess. But since you are also investing 252 (or why go for the extra powr) in special attack, this leaves less EVs for anything else.
With a Timid set, you can hit 325 speed, have full special attack EVs, and still hit 333 HP with the remaining EVs. With a Modest set, you are entirely invested in speed and power to still be slower than Timid Sub/Tect Kyurem. If you are thinking of running any sort of extra bulk or utility, Modest ain't it. If you aren't comfortable giving up the speed tier to some Kyurem and Gliscor sets, modest ain't it.
What modest is for is breaking slower cores slightly better. This might be Munki's primary role anyways. I still don't love the tradeoffs based on EV efficiency and relevant speed tiers. However, I think it is important to look at both. So let's theorcraft some sets for both...
Timd AV:
Munkidori @ Assault Vest
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic Noise
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Tera Blast
I made this set to show off the better EV efficiency. It could be Calm Mind, too. But I think I'd rather not take the turn to setup with this mon, which might not always be staying in. AV is also better to show off 4 attacks. Dropping Sludge Bomb was tough, but Fake Out does work.
Modest Wallbreaker:
Munkidori @ Life Orb
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 8 Def / 252 SpA / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast/Tera Blast
- Nasty Plot
I took advantadge of the stronger hitting nature to try out Ghost/Fighting coverage. The hope is using NP over Tera Ghost for even more power works better into Ghold and Glowking. And also that Gliscor gets 2 hit by Psychic Noise after the power increase. I haven't run all the Modest calcs, though, so I might be wrong. I ran too many calcs already. There's no time left for it. At this point? If it's wrong, it's wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong, though.
Either way, there needed to be a reason to run modest over Timid since Timid is better at defense or utility. That reason is damage. What damage combinations can Modest run that Timid can't? I think this might be it.
Choice Scarf:
Munkidori @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic Noise
- U-turn
- Trick
- Sludge Bomb
With Munki's speed tier and Trick, it's not a bad option. Fast U-turn with Poison chance is also nice. I didn't go over the speed tiers for Scarf since they are laregly the same. Wanna outspeed Scarf Lando? Hit 310 speed and add Scarf yourself. Same for BE Speed Crown and 325 speed. Agility Crown smokes you, but I'm guessing you aren't likely to stay in on that.
To go into more detail, 325 speed + Scarf gets you at about 487.5 speed. The base 125s like Darkrai git 383 with a + speed Nature. Pult hits up to 421 unless boosted. Nothing else unboosted matters besides D-speed. It can outrun you with a +speed nature, but this is likely not worth fussing over. However, 342 speed is a Timid Munki's max before scarf. With Scarf, you hit up to 513 speed. An unboosted + speed D-speed hits 504 speed max. To go past that, you need 337 speed before the 1.5 times Scarf multiplier. That takes 237 EVs and the + speed Nature. At this point, you may as well be at full speed investment. This isn't efficient. You aren't hitting enough of the boosted tier milestones with full speed investment Scarf. You only need the same 325 speed for Crown and there isn't much relevant above that you that you can outrun with more speed investment. Hence why I stopped at 325 speed. I don't feel playing for speed ties with speed boosted Treads and Scarf Enam is great, either.
Conclusion:
I hope this is a better starting point for Munkidori experiments than I had last comment. There is a reason why we don't see Munkidoris just spamming Psychic Noise everywhere in OU. I still see potential, though. While the analyses isn't complete, there is a decent amount now. It does make it a bit clearer how to approach some of those problems. Maybe.