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Tournament National Dex 35 Pokes PL - Playable Tiers Discussion

GC said:
bumboclaat regarding your repeat metas point, I think the main reason people are against this is the idea of having metas present in the last PL also being present in the one directly following. March24 is my favorite month meta of all time, but there is only so much you can do with 35 pokemon and I feel like having it occupy an entire slot would be a waste since there is very little that hasn't already been discovered, especially since it got an entire forum tour last summer. Next year I would be more inclined to have a slot for it, but for now I like the idea of trying to keep things fresh.
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Part of a TL's responsibilities is to have a pulse on the community of the tier they lead. I trust that the 35 Pokes TLs do. I'm not really sure where the idea that once a format has had x amount of tour representation it is 'solved' comes from nor why that is a popular mentality. For example, RBY OU has existed for 30 years at this point and still sees new developments and strategies despite functionally having far fewer than 35 mons, less movepool diversity, and no EV spreads to fiddle with.

If the 35 Pokes community no longer enjoys a particular format, that is fine, but doesn't seem to be the case here? If the entirety of the 35 Pokes community was polled on their favourite format it'd be surprising if a couple didn't make it onto the vast majority of lists. With the March 2024 example, outside of widespread burnout, I don't see a compelling reason why it should be dropped if it is a popular and competitive format. This thread isn't a formality like it is with most tours and it seems pretty likely 35PL II will be meaningfully distinct from 35PL I.

That being said, 35PL should probably decide on what the 'identity' of the tour is. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but this is the 'flagship' team tour - at least on the forums. To me, that means that past formats that are both popular and competitive should recieve 'preferential treatment'. This doesn't mean that every slot needs to be the same year-in year-out, but that you should realistically expect to see a couple of mainstays. 35PL is supposed to 'showcase the best of the best' and this extends to tiers as well. If they lose their lustre that is one thing, but mixing things up purely to 'keep things fresh' is a bad precedent to set imo. It seems pretty likely that a majority of slots are going to change on a year to year basis anyways which accomplishes that. Having some 'mainstay' formats doesn't mean they will be there in perpetuity. There are 12 new formats between each edition of 35PL and chances are one of them will be popular and competitive enough to dethrone the couple of 'mainstay formats' anyways.
 
bumboclaat said:
Figured it was worth chiming in on a few broader / bigger picture things. I don't plan to talk about specific metagames as I don't have knowledge or experience in any of them. Full disclosure, the extent of my 35 Pokes experience is 1 game in NDAMPL and a lot of testing with teammates afterwards.

Re: 'Current Metas'

Reading through this thread the idea of current metagames being considered is surprising. That is to say nothing of the people advocating for current metagames to automatically secure a slot. The reason why this thread is up now and not a week or two before manager signups as in most tours is that the council apparently needs time to ensure that the resources are updated and meet certain standards. Given that, I don't see how a 'current metagame' (any 2026 month) is compatible with that. If it takes a some peroid of time to ensure that quality standards are met I don't see how metagames that don't even exist when the format discussion thread is posted can be considered. This is also without touching on the identity of 35 Pokes makes deciding on slots exceedingly difficult relative to other tours. There are only 10(?) slots and each year brings 12 new metagames competing for them on top of popular past formats that arguably deserve a slot as well. There are going to be a lot of complaints regardless of what is eventually chosen and dedicating one or multiple slots to unknown metagames exacerbates this significantly. This is probably something 35 Pokes should decide on and have it apply to future editions of 35PL.

Re: OMs + Doubles

I don't see any reason why these should be automatically included or excluded. They should be considered, but it is up to the TLs of these tiers to present their case. There are some things happening behind the scenes to give these tiers more tour respresentation, but that is in the early stages of development and there isn't anything to share on that front. I don't know enough about the 35 Pokes community / ecosystem to examine the validity of the claims about these OMs, but presumably the 35 Pokes leaders do and they're the ones that decide on the slots anyways. As an outsider, it'd be cool to have them, should the playerbase exist to provide a quality pool. That being said, there are a lot of formats competing for a very limited number of slots so it isn't the end of the world if they are not included so long as the formats that are included can be justified. This makes it difficult to justify automatically including perfect or vgc in my eyes unless I am wholly misunderstanding something. Personally, it'd be cool to have (at least) one.

Re: 'Repeat' Slots

The popularity of banning repeat slots is something I find baffling. That isn't to say that a specific month should get a slot for eternity, but at the end of the day 35PL is 'supposed' to represent the best of the of the best and that includes formats. Whilst not completely random, part of the appeal of 35 Pokes is you never know what you're going to be every month and I'm sure some months are considered absolute stinkers by the majority of the playerbase. Some months are certainly better than others and if particular months are considered a cut above the rest by wide swaths of the playerbase then they probably should have outsized tour representation. It isn't as though a format is relegated to the dustbin of history the moment the calendar turns a page so I don't see why that mentality should apply to tour slots. It isn't as though 8/10 slots will forever be the same.

Re: 'Rotating' Slots

This isn't something that should be on the table and should be a non starter imo for the reasons listed above. Players should know what they're signing up for and adds an unreasonable amount of extra work for fake representation. Having a handful of games that might not even happen isn't real representation for these formats and is a disservice to the people that enjoy them. A seperate team tour for formats that didn't make it into PL is the way to go imo if there is real demmand for a ton of formats that don't end up being included. A Bo3 slot with known formats is great if there is a desire for that, but that is very different from rotating slots.
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I don't really get the point of mentioning resources. Let's be realistic here, in any team tour someone gets drafted in, are they not at the level where resources are irrelevant? Say you draft a "tour player" for this tier, their prep is gonna be largely dependent on their teammates, who are gonna be people who play 35, just like last year. They just have to worry about clicking correctly in the grand scheme of things. I don't think January 2026 should be cut out just because it's lacking resources, any time a lower tier has had massive shifts (SM PU losing Mesprit and Togedemaru is the first one that comes to mind), everyone went in blind. I don't know the logistics of when this tour is gonna start, but I can understand somewhat about like locking in February 2026 when it doesn't exist yet.

OMs are tricky, though as I've been a part of 35 for almost two years and was on the council for quite a long period of time, I think I'm probably one of the most informed people when it comes to competitiveness of these formats. Perfect 35 will be a perfect inclusion and I'll be very surprised if it doesn't make it in. VGC on the other hand.... I'm looking at this from a manager's perspective. Can every team even find players that they believe will be consistent and worth drafting? Do not think I'm saying the people signing up for this slot are bad but managers can compare the playerbase of those who want to start in VGC and those vs pretty much any previous 35 meta and the imbalance will be found very quickly. Perfect 35 certainly will have less of this problem.

I pretty much started this "anti repeating slots" rhetoric so I'm here to double down on it, and it seems like it has gotten some support in this thread. We do not need February 2024 any longer. I can hyperfocus on this tier because it's actually the most spammed metagame in any 35 tournament. The burnout is real, and that needs to be taken into account. Other than that, some metas are consistently competitive and if they're well-liked, then they can be included but again, the only metas that were in 35PL I were
  • August 23
  • February 24 x2
  • March 24
  • May 24
  • September 24
  • December 24
  • February 25 x2
  • Ubers April 24
No one was particularly pushing any of these formats outside of Feb and March 24 (OP listed them after all). Ubers is not coming back by the looks of it and if you remove two slots of Feb 24, March 24, and Ubers, turns out we have 4 slots to work with and we have more options to choose from. Again, due to our wide range of options compared to if you just look at 9 generations of any usage based tier, it's tough to decide who makes the cut, so spamming the same metas when again, there's other metas at their same level of competitiveness or even higher, it's just better to you know, change the metas.

And finally, ye let's not do rotating slots or bo3 nonsense thanks.
 
tryingtolearnstall said:
I feel like preferences on months are largely subjective, I don't think the inclusion or exclusion of any one month is going to make or break the tournament. I personally like August 2024, along with any other month that includes Vanilluxe.
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I couldn’t agree with this more; the entire purpose of the existing list is to serve as a starting point for discussion as opposed to asking people to come up with an entire league’s worth of formats on their own. Speaking on behalf of my co-tls, we fully expect that many things and any particular thing will change between now and the start of the league.


To be fully, 100% clear, I personally have a strong preference towards the tiers that I enjoy and want to play the most because as Stall pointed out these preferences are subjective. My personal preference as a community member and prospective player would be to have the list look like this:



August 2023 bo3
September 2023
December 2023 bo3
January 2024 bo3
February 2024 bo3
September 2024 bo3
June 2025 bo3
January 2026
35 Pokes Perfect Vision Z1 [OM Slot I]
35 Pokes VGC June 2025 [OM Slot II]

That’s what my personal 100% biased ideal league would look like. Maybe sub in April 2025 , October 2025, October A 2023 ,or March 2025 for some of the mainline metas. March 24 isn’t on my personal list even though it’s arguably the best most fun and most competitive tier we’ve ever had because I just don’t personally jive with it as much as I do other things. And on the flip side I can cite a dozen legitimate reasons why different items on my personal list may not be a fit for 35 PL II. In short my personal ideal league would have 8 mainline slots and 2 OM slots with the OM slots being filled by VGC June and Perfect Z. I hope this clears up any confusion regarding what I as a player and community member think.

MamboTND said:
Hello everyone, MamboTND here!
As the creator and current Tier Leader of Perfect 35 and also the Graphic Designer for the monthly graphics, I want to emphasize a lot of things.

FIRST THINGS FIRST, I'm very grateful that Perfect 35 is even in consideration for the mainline 35PL at all. I also want to extend all the grace and thankfulness to the tournament organizers and tier leaders for putting this event together in the first place and allow for an OM to be included at all.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I want to address the many points that have been lifted since the beginning of this thread post and at the end make my suggestion for the best possible 35PL.
----------
1) BOTH 35 VGC and Perfect 35 deserve to be included, both with different reasons:
I'm reading varied opinions on the matter, like why only Perfect 35 should be considered, or why VGC should only be considered, or that both or neither should be considered... Let me lay it down like this. 35PL should embody the best that 35 Pokes has to offer, EVERY SINGLE TIME! What do I want to say with this? I believe that 35 Pokes Doubles or VGC or however they want to be officially named MUST absolutely be included into the 35 Pokes atmosphere and should be considered a standard. Just because the current active player base prefers mostly or only Singles it doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to ignite interest in what has been missing for our community to grow exponentially, that is an environment where 35 Pokes is more of a way of gaming than just a subset of its community. 35 Pokes Doubles at the moment is at the cusp of entering its "Golden Age" and all it's been missing is a shine, a spotlight. We should be embracing our OMs and not pin them against each other.

35 Pokes Doubles can easily be its own thing just as Perfect 35 has been and it simply just needs the exposure. Pokemon, to the regular audience, is primarily a Doubles Format so demonstrating the potential it has using the 35 Pokes Spirit of randomly generating a list of allowed Pokemon should be the priority for the leaders of this community to spread and in turn make 35 Pokes a bigger deal than it already is. Just Imagine if this idea caught the eyes of someone like Aaron Cybertron Zang, or MoxieBoosted, or even Mr. VGC himself Wolfe Glick?! I'm sure they find 35 to be a compelling idea!

2) Now on the same vein of OMs being included into the 35PL, Perfect 35 is lucky that is even being included in the tentative roster of playable formats. 35 Pokes is at its core a Randomly Generated format, Perfect 35 in a way violates that spirit and turns the 35 into an Imagination and Viability Focused format that is created by the minds of few. Granted this means the formats are mostly balanced and provide very unique experiences that is almost impossible with randomly generated lists, but it also means that the Pokemon chosen may still not appeal to everyone. With all that said, I want to emphasize that both A3 and D1 would be great candidates for this year's 35PL and obviously the fanfare is behind D1 for being potentially the best format 35 Pokes has to experience! Granted, the problem with D1 is it's NFE nature which would scream confusion much like Seniors did last year's 35PL. Although I think D1 will be more appealing than Seniors just for the nature of NFE being charming little guys and No Eviolite allowing the format not taking a stale bulky war approach and instead a healthy environment for different play styles. D1 is unique and is THE one we would want to truly showcase how great Perfect 35 can be! It creates very thrilling matches to spectate, has creative team building, matches never feel boring or predictable, and is very much suited to a Bo1 format whereas A3 is more suited for Bo3. In the end if only 1, between A3 or D1, makes it in I will personally be happy that we were featured at all.
I will drop the graphics for both formats so anyone lost in this A3 and D1 talk has a better understanding of what's being discussed:
D1
View attachment 798760
A3
View attachment 798761

3) I think I agree with having a format unique to 35PL, it sounds exciting, would give firsthand experience to those who are new to 35 Pokes, and gives the old dogs something new to explore. I'm totally on board, just give me time to make the graphic ahead of time if we do this please p.p

4) Having 2x current months slots could become an easy inclusion for all 35PLs, I'm on board with this idea, though I don't think is all that necessary but it definitely builds consistency with this event, one that should focus on everything that makes 35 Pokes great.

5) The topic of repeating months from last year's PL is a hot topic that I think comes down to a pragmatic approach.
Feb24 and March24 are the most balanced formats, the ones that are exemplary to what 35 Pokes is capable of generating. Much like D1 for Perfect 35, those two months are best introductions to new players, Skilled and Noob players alike. For the same reason I would highlight why D1 is the best Perfect 35 has to offer, February 24 and March 24 are simply the best formats to appeal to newcomers. So in my opinion they should totally be included. Now how do we go about it? I would say alternate between the two every year, or at the very least don't make either of them a 2x slot format. Now I get the aspect of it being boring for old dogs to play February 24 for like the 5th time, I think this point is only valid when we make MOST of the tournament just repeated formats. I believe using just 2 Slots for Legacy/Classic formats to be repeated every 35PL.

6) Wow is taking more than an hour to type this out on the phone and making sure I'm not making typos or missing the points I'm trying to deliver... phew.... Anyways... Here are my suggestion on what to do with the 10 Slots.

Approach #1:
  1. 2x Current Month
  2. Classic/Defining Month (March 24)
  3. Classic/Defining Month (December 23)
  4. 35PL Exclusive Format (Randomly Generated just for this tour)
  5. Old Non-Repeated Months (July23-Dec24 Era)
  6. Top 2025-26 Month
  7. Top 2025-26 Month
  8. Top 2025-26 Month or Perfect 35
  9. Best VGC Month

Approach #2:
  1. Current Month
  2. Classic/Defining Month (March 24)
  3. Classic/Defining Month (December 23)
  4. 35PL Exclusive Format (Randomly Generated just for this tour)
  5. Old Non-Repeated Months (July23-Dec24 Era)
  6. Top 2025-26 Month
  7. Top 2025-26 Month
  8. Top 2025-26 Month
  9. Perfect 35
  10. Best VGC Month
Now with all that said, if I can have my cake and eat it too I would do the following list of metas/months... Maybe I'll redo a post just explain why I chose these but I'm very tired after typing 2000 words xD
Also yes I am aware is different from my suggestion above.
  • 2x Classic/Legacy Months (March24 and December23)
  • 2x 35PL Exclusive Format Generated for this tour only
  • 2x Old Non-Repeated Months (June24 and October24)
  • 2x Top Last Year Months (pick any two; April25, May25, September25, or October25)
  • 2x OMs (D1 and Whatever VGC leaders thinks best represents their tier)
OR
  • 1x Current Month
  • 2x Classic/Legacy Months (March24 and December23)
  • 1x 35PL Exclusive Format Generated for this tour only
  • 2x Old Non-Repeated Months (June24 and October24)
  • 2x Top Last Year Months (pick any two; April25, May25, September25, or October25)
  • 2x OMs (D1 and Whatever VGC leaders thinks best represents their tier)
Aight, I'm tired... Hopefully this post does some good and maybe shift any negative sentiment and hopefully allow for the best 35 Pokes showcase possible!
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This certainly needed to be said and I’m grateful that you did so. Speaking briefly on behalf of the tier leadership team, I think the idea of 2 OM Slots is a good one contingent that, per Bumbo’s point, the Tier Leaders of those respective tiers are able to make their cases. On the VGC side of things, we’re actively working on things which will further speak to what the tier needs to show.


Re: Current meta slots

The idea is fun and sounds appealing to me, but thinking about it again from a league-wide perspective it would not be the best fit at this time. The PL is supposed to showcase the best of what 35 Pokes can be, and we pride ourselves on being able to offer high quality resources to accompany our best metagames. Players competing in the current meta slot would not be able to benefit from this, nor is there a guarantee that they would find themselves satisfied with having played “current meta” instead of an established and already well-resourced previous meta they already enjoy.
I feel similarly about a 35PL-exclusive format, but if there is a particularly strong, consistent desire for such a thing and exploratory testing reveals a sufficient playerbase, then we could make it work. I like the idea personally though, and would enjoy seeing it in some future tournament or event.

Re: Rotating / Repeat Slots:

Going to briefly touch on these together because my thoughts on both are related. Rotating slots that create inconsistency or disconnect between signup expectation and playing reality certainly have no place in the league. I believe that among the best ideas suggested is to feature a bo3 slot comprised of metagames with large amounts of playerbase overalp. I personally like the idea of a “classic metas” bo3 comprising of Dec/Feb/March or Aug/Dec/March but the final details there would of course depend on if the playerbase can actually accommodate that. We have the resources for it already, and I know that metagames from around the same time period tend to have playerbase overlap, so I imagine it would not be difficult to find a best fit scenario here. How this relates to repeat slots is that I feel much of the sentiment against repeated slots as a whole is rooted in desire for novelty and for representation of favored metas which were not initially mentioned. Potentially combining multiple metagmes into one slot adds novelty and potential for more metas, unplayed or overplayed, to get featured. The nature of this league is exceedingly difficult compared to more conventional ones, and so to accomplish its intended purpose there must be different aspects of the league which appeal to the different groups of interested players.

In response to Mambo’s post, I am a fan of his second suggestion with some slight modifications:

  • 1x 2026 Month
  • 2x Classic/Legacy Months (March24 and December23)*
  • 1x 35PL Exclusive Format Generated for this tour only* OR 1x 2025 Month
  • 2x Old Non-Repeated Months (can be from any year)*
  • 2x Top 2025 Months (pick any two, regardless of repetition)
  • 2x OMs (Perfect + VGC, specifics up to TLs’ discretion)
* inclusion subject to demonstrable player counts

As a final point, I’d like to state that all of my opinions are sincere and carry no hidden meanings nor disingenuity .Despite their popularity, apparent sensibility, or lack either thereof, they are at still the opinions I personally hold. As I hope I have made clear though, my personal opinions are set aside when considering matters with my co-leaders on behalf of the entire tier.
 
TTK said:
I don't really get the point of mentioning resources. Let's be realistic here, in any team tour someone gets drafted in, are they not at the level where resources are irrelevant? Say you draft a "tour player" for this tier, their prep is gonna be largely dependent on their teammates, who are gonna be people who play 35, just like last year. They just have to worry about clicking correctly in the grand scheme of things. I don't think January 2026 should be cut out just because it's lacking resources, any time a lower tier has had massive shifts (SM PU losing Mesprit and Togedemaru is the first one that comes to mind), everyone went in blind. I don't know the logistics of when this tour is gonna start, but I can understand somewhat about like locking in February 2026 when it doesn't exist yet.

OMs are tricky, though as I've been a part of 35 for almost two years and was on the council for quite a long period of time, I think I'm probably one of the most informed people when it comes to competitiveness of these formats. Perfect 35 will be a perfect inclusion and I'll be very surprised if it doesn't make it in. VGC on the other hand.... I'm looking at this from a manager's perspective. Can every team even find players that they believe will be consistent and worth drafting? Do not think I'm saying the people signing up for this slot are bad but managers can compare the playerbase of those who want to start in VGC and those vs pretty much any previous 35 meta and the imbalance will be found very quickly. Perfect 35 certainly will have less of this problem.

I pretty much started this "anti repeating slots" rhetoric so I'm here to double down on it, and it seems like it has gotten some support in this thread. We do not need February 2024 any longer. I can hyperfocus on this tier because it's actually the most spammed metagame in any 35 tournament. The burnout is real, and that needs to be taken into account. Other than that, some metas are consistently competitive and if they're well-liked, then they can be included but again, the only metas that were in 35PL I were
  • August 23
  • February 24 x2
  • March 24
  • May 24
  • September 24
  • December 24
  • February 25 x2
  • Ubers April 24
No one was particularly pushing any of these formats outside of Feb and March 24 (OP listed them after all). Ubers is not coming back by the looks of it and if you remove two slots of Feb 24, March 24, and Ubers, turns out we have 4 slots to work with and we have more options to choose from. Again, due to our wide range of options compared to if you just look at 9 generations of any usage based tier, it's tough to decide who makes the cut, so spamming the same metas when again, there's other metas at their same level of competitiveness or even higher, it's just better to you know, change the metas.

And finally, ye let's not do rotating slots or bo3 nonsense thanks.
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Regarding resources, we have gotten repeated feedback from well-performing group tournament players that high quality resources are valued. If that is something we can offer, it makes sense to do so.
 
TTK said:
I don't really get the point of mentioning resources. Let's be realistic here, in any team tour someone gets drafted in, are they not at the level where resources are irrelevant? Say you draft a "tour player" for this tier, their prep is gonna be largely dependent on their teammates, who are gonna be people who play 35, just like last year. They just have to worry about clicking correctly in the grand scheme of things. I don't think January 2026 should be cut out just because it's lacking resources, any time a lower tier has had massive shifts (SM PU losing Mesprit and Togedemaru is the first one that comes to mind), everyone went in blind. I don't know the logistics of when this tour is gonna start, but I can understand somewhat about like locking in February 2026 when it doesn't exist yet.
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Just replying to this portion since I've realized this probably seems out of place without additional context. The other day 35 Pokes leadership reached out to NDAM leadership to request to post this thread. I was intially surprised and confused about why the format discussion thread needed to go up a couple of months before the tour starts instead of the usual week or two before signups opened. The reason given was that time was needed to adequately prepare resources for the eventual formats that would feature in 35PL.

I'm not going to pretend that I personally agree with that reasoning, but it was what was provided and there wasn't a good reason to say no if that is the route 35 Pokes leadership wanted to take. My understanding is that this implicitly implies that a formats resources at the end of the month are not considered 'tournament ready' and that standard is a soft requirement to be in 35PL. Given this, extremely recent or the current format are not going to have enough time to get their resources 'tournament ready' by the time the slots are decided. That is my understanding of the situation and hopefully it makes more sense given this context.

I do understand where you're coming from with the PU example, but I don't think they're really comprable to 35 Pokes. Those are live tiers where you're forced to deal with the cards you're dealt. The equivalent imo would be if the options for PUPL slots were specific iterations of PU (i.e. Jan - March 2025) instead of entire generations. Do I think that clickers / tour players can manage fine without top tier resources? Yes, but I'd also prefer to give 35 Pokes leadership as much autonomy as reasonably possible to run their tiers and tours. They bend over backwards to involve the community as much as possible and I'm confident that they are more than capable of reviewing the feedback the community provides in this thread and on discord and re-evaluate their positions on certain topics given reasonable points are raised.

After all, the purpose of this thread is to provide a formal venue for the community to make their voices and opinions heard so that they can be considered when deciding the slots. If everything was already decided then the OP of this thread and tier leadership's responses throughout it would be quite different.
 
presi said:
I think it would be interesting for these OMs to come back another year once their playerbase has had time to grow that way they are capable of showing their very best rather than trying to force artifical growth through the pl. It didn't work for seniors and I do not think it will work in this case.
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That's a false equivalence. 35 VGC has a relatively active player base and several successful tours throughout the year. Also, it's not an effort to grow the tier, though that is an effect of it's inclusion as some outside VGC players might sign up. It's a chance for the 35VGC players, most of whom don't yet play the main tiers, to show off their skills on a larger stage.
 
Gravity Monkey said:
Super new 35er so I’m not gonna talk much about specific months (altho I wish my baby September 25 was in the conversation), but I wanted to share thoughts on less specific ideas.
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September 25 is absolutely in the conversation, because you brought it up! The purpose of this thread is to see which metas you want to play — think of it as a more formal and discussion-based way of surveying you. I would personally really like to hear your case for September 2025 as well as which other 9 tiers you’d like to see included in the league!


This thread is for everybody in the community to express and discuss their preferences; Essence, Friend, and I want to know what each and every one of you thinks would be the best set of metagames to represent 35 Pokes in the Premier League setting — and we can only know if you tell us!!
 
I'd like to play devil's advocate but didn't we do 2x Current Month metas last year with February 25? And if I recall it was very successful too. I don't think having polished resources are required, if anything it would be a meta that the old dogs would prioritize and the older more established metas are for the newer players or less familiar players.

I think we are overthinking it here trying to emulate other PLs. Fresh metas are quintessential to 35 Pokes as a whole who we shouldn't shelter for that idea. IMO we can either do January 26 since by the time PL rolls in it would be done and resources pretty worked on. But if February 26 feels like a much competitive meta and it should be the same case as last year with February 25.

bumboclaat Ember Celica
 
MamboTND said:
I'd like to play devil's advocate but didn't we do 2x Current Month metas last year with February 25? And if I recall it was very successful too. I don't think having polished resources are required, if anything it would be a meta that the old dogs would prioritize and the older more established metas are for the newer players or less familiar players.

I think we are overthinking it here trying to emulate other PLs. Fresh metas are quintessential to 35 Pokes as a whole who we shouldn't shelter for that idea. IMO we can either do January 26 since by the time PL rolls in it would be done and resources pretty worked on. But if February 26 feels like a much competitive meta and it should be the same case as last year with February 25.

bumboclaat Ember Celica
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I'm not nearly familiar enough with any 35 Pokes metagame to comment on what should or should not be included. That is why I've weighed in on more general / philosophical stuff rather than specifics. 35 Pokes is unique and 35PL reflects that. Most PL discussion threads are more or less a formality with most of the discussion pertaining the maybe one or two metagames that can make a reasonable case for inclusion, if even that. That really isn't the case for 35 Pokes where there are a couple dozen different metagames vying for the 8 remaining slots.

Does 35PL need to be a carbon copy of other PLs? No, but at the same time, if 35PL is going to deviate from standard practises there should be a good reason to do so. There generally is, but it was still worth mentioning. Again, I'm really not qualified to evaluate the claims made in this thread, but if everything is taken at face value it would be difficult to justify a metagame getting multiple slots in 35PLII. That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't happen, but that is entirely up to tier leadership.

Personally, if any given metagame is legitimately popular and competitive enough then there probably should be a conversation about it taking taking up two slots. One of these seems reasonable enough I guess, but having multiple 2 slot metagames seems a bit difficult to justify when the number of metagames that arguably deserve a slot far exceeds the slots available. This is definitely something unique to 35 Pokes as most tours will have a flagship metagame (OU or current gen for lower tiers) that will almost always take up an outsized portion of slots. This is really a question for 35 Pokes leadership, not me.

I don't see an issue with a 'cutoff' for recent metagames in PL so long as it is made clear and applied evenly. What I do have an issue with is gambling on an unknown metagame when slots are already hotly contested. For example, Feb / March 2026 could be amazing, they could be dogshit. Nobody knows and nobody will know until those metagames are actually played. When there are already more deserving metgames than slots it is unfair to those metagames to take a gamble on an unknown metagame when the entire purpose of this tour is to showcase the best 35 Pokes metagames. This tour isn't a one off and will exist so long as there is the playerbase to support it.
 
bumboclaat said:
I'm not nearly familiar enough with any 35 Pokes metagame to comment on what should or should not be included. That is why I've weighed in on more general / philosophical stuff rather than specifics. 35 Pokes is unique and 35PL reflects that. Most PL discussion threads are more or less a formality with most of the discussion pertaining the maybe one or two metagames that can make a reasonable case for inclusion, if even that. That really isn't the case for 35 Pokes where there are a couple dozen different metagames vying for the 8 remaining slots.

Does 35PL need to be a carbon copy of other PLs? No, but at the same time, if 35PL is going to deviate from standard practises there should be a good reason to do so. There generally is, but it was still worth mentioning. Again, I'm really not qualified to evaluate the claims made in this thread, but if everything is taken at face value it would be difficult to justify a metagame getting multiple slots in 35PLII. That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't happen, but that is entirely up to tier leadership.

Personally, if any given metagame is legitimately popular and competitive enough then there probably should be a conversation about it taking taking up two slots. One of these seems reasonable enough I guess, but having multiple 2 slot metagames seems a bit difficult to justify when the number of metagames that arguably deserve a slot far exceeds the slots available. This is definitely something unique to 35 Pokes as most tours will have a flagship metagame (OU or current gen for lower tiers) that will almost always take up an outsized portion of slots. This is really a question for 35 Pokes leadership, not me.

I don't see an issue with a 'cutoff' for recent metagames in PL so long as it is made clear and applied evenly. What I do have an issue with is gambling on an unknown metagame when slots are already hotly contested. For example, Feb / March 2026 could be amazing, they could be dogshit. Nobody knows and nobody will know until those metagames are actually played. When there are already more deserving metgames than slots it is unfair to those metagames to take a gamble on an unknown metagame when the entire purpose of this tour is to showcase the best 35 Pokes metagames. This tour isn't a one off and will exist so long as there is the playerbase to support it.
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Haven't caught up w rest of the thread. I agree with you 2 slots seems too much for any meta. for certain teams last pl both febs were hard to prep for with at least one having an imbalance of players in even some of the more well equipped teams. My team was great at 25 but struggled to support 2 24 slots. Based on some weeks ik something similar can be said for other teams the other way round
i'm moreso indifferent on current meta so can't say much on that. i think if we did do current month I'd be partisan for 1 slot
 
MamboTND said:
I'd like to play devil's advocate but didn't we do 2x Current Month metas last year with February 25? And if I recall it was very successful too.
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February 25 was selected for recency and quality, not as a “current month” slot. The initial plan for 35 PL I was 6 teams x 8 slots, and when the league got more signups than expected we decided to expand it to 10 slots. The hosts and tier leaders at the time had a discussion about what tiers to put in the extra 2 slots, and we ultimately decided to double up on both February metagames. We also considered doubling up other already-included tiers and adding new tiers as potential options, but those were ultimately decided against. The deliberations were exclusively focused on what would allow us to include more players without substantially changing the expectations we established when signups were posted.
MamboTND said:
I think we are overthinking it here trying to emulate other PLs. Fresh metas are quintessential to 35 Pokes as a whole who we shouldn't shelter for that idea.
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I modeled 35PL after existing well-established PLs when I created it in 2024, and so emulating what other PLs do, to the degree that it works for us, is in this league’s DNA. The 35PL will always feature a mix of novelty, mainstay, legacy, and freshness altogether. That is the intended purpose of this specific league and we have other plans in the works to better highlight and represent the quintessential qualities of 35 you identified. This thread is not the place to discuss such things at this time, but I am more than happy to speak to you privately about them. I don’t wish to get ahead of myself.


I won’t speak on the specifics of any metagames you mentioned, because that delves into subjective territory and this post is only meant to correct the record regarding what the 35PL factually is and elucidate the reasonings behind past decisions.

We (Essence and I) would like to return the focus of this discussion back to the 8 main format tiers you all wish to see included in the Premier League and why. I am personally going to take a step back from the discussion for the time being to allow space for others to share their opinions, and am personally quite interested to see especially what our 2025 players have to say. Regarding everything else, I have nothing to add that Essence and Bumbo have not already said.
 
OU's and really every official tier get played way more than 35 pokes, especially metagames from over a year ago. 2-3 tours (on the high end) and a livetour or two is less than what a lot of old gen low tiers get played. Not sure how you can say any of these officals aren't "overplayed" but 35 pokes tiers are. My best guess it has something to do with what people like about 35 pokes, ie freshness, but I think it goes way too far (especially when meta's are called stale solved, etc on day 2). I guess you can say something about it being an advantage if you can pick a lesser played tier that's just as good bc there is some minor drop off as a metagame is played more that makes it preferable to play an equally good metagame that hasn't been played as much but I think that's negligible at these levels of playtime/exploration.

Imo the inverse, a greater number of public, high level games and general resources, makes it easier to get into a tier you haven't played before and this is a bigger reason to include a tier. I've gone back and looked at a few tiers like Feb 24, March 24, Oct-B, July 23, etc and the thing I've noticed is that its far, far easier to learn months when you have team tour replays to check out (and that July 23 is the best of them ofc). There are other metagame traits I've noticed, like central walls w/recovery especially regenerator (cuts out swaths of random sets, forcing breaking to be considered rather than "lucky"), balanced archetypes being dominant (less hyper specific and volatile interactions), hit and run breaking tactics (knowing how a set up mon will break in different mu's is hard to learn for me unless you leave it to chance, same can be the case w/really long term hazard interactions) and well known pokemon being high tier (just familiarity) makes tiers easier to learn, but this might just be a product of my own preferences and skillset. I think that team tours are at there best when its a proper team, and not just individuals getting points that are added together. Making it easier to learn tiers and including the most popular tiers helps massively w/that. Same reason why I like the custom metagame idea.
 
Really agree with mangoose's sentiment here, as I said I'm still sort of an outsider to the community and so I was surprised by how much people were against repeating metagames from last PL. Obviously I understand we don't want literally the same lineup as last year, and I understand that some metas have seen more play than they should have. But to my personal understanding one advantage of yearly PLs is that they allow to create knowledge about metagames over time, and if you enforce a reset each year then that aspect is just gone. I know freshness is one of the appeals of 35, but to me, it's like, surely with its the "gacha" nature, people would be keen to a "greatest hits" compilation, would they not?

As an example from outside 35, my favorite ways to play Pokemon bar none are BSS GBU, ORAS and USUM. One of the two ways to play these is BSSPL, and it's something I look forward to yearly. Maybe because I'm newer I have less understanding of the place retro formats have in 35, but to me, if we found gold with a few 35 metagames and wanted to secure them evergreen spots on 35PL to make sure they see yearly play, Id be pretty delighted. I guess metagame quality is subjective, and finding "gold" in this example is something that's gonna be different for every player, but to me, things like the amount of resources a specific meta has, on top of making it easier to play, also attests of a greater community interest, and to me it's like, of course the more interesting metagames get played more.

I have no skin in this game: I look at the tier list from last PL and I haven't played any of these, so if anything if we decide to go with a clean slate that means more room for metagames I'm more interested in. I'm just a little confused by the blanket "no repeats" by principle is all.

Anyways, to circle back to the discussion Typhon is trying to stir us in (so sorry for derailing even more), the metagames I myself would personally like to see are July 23, December 23, September 25, and October 25. I'm also not the biggest fan of bo3/rotating slots.
 
MamboTND said:
6) Wow is taking more than an hour to type this out on the phone and making sure I'm not making typos or missing the points I'm trying to deliver... phew.... Anyways... Here are my suggestion on what to do with the 10 Slots.

Approach #1:
  1. 2x Current Month
  2. Classic/Defining Month (March 24)
  3. Classic/Defining Month (December 23)
  4. 35PL Exclusive Format (Randomly Generated just for this tour)
  5. Old Non-Repeated Months (July23-Dec24 Era)
  6. Top 2025-26 Month
  7. Top 2025-26 Month
  8. Top 2025-26 Month or Perfect 35
  9. Best VGC Month

Approach #2:
  1. Current Month
  2. Classic/Defining Month (March 24)
  3. Classic/Defining Month (December 23)
  4. 35PL Exclusive Format (Randomly Generated just for this tour)
  5. Old Non-Repeated Months (July23-Dec24 Era)
  6. Top 2025-26 Month
  7. Top 2025-26 Month
  8. Top 2025-26 Month
  9. Perfect 35
  10. Best VGC Month
Now with all that said, if I can have my cake and eat it too I would do the following list of metas/months... Maybe I'll redo a post just explain why I chose these but I'm very tired after typing 2000 words xD
Also yes I am aware is different from my suggestion above.
  • 2x Classic/Legacy Months (March24 and December23)
  • 2x 35PL Exclusive Format Generated for this tour only
  • 2x Old Non-Repeated Months (pick any two; October-B, April 24, June24, October24)
  • 2x Top Last Year Months (pick any two; April25, May25, September25, or October25)
  • 2x OMs (D1 and Whatever VGC leaders thinks best represents their tier)
OR
  • 1x Current Month
  • 2x Classic/Legacy Months (March24 and December23)
  • 1x 35PL Exclusive Format Generated for this tour only
  • 2x Old Non-Repeated Months (pick any two; October-B, April 24, June24, October24)
  • 2x Top Last Year Months (pick any two; April25, May25, September25, or October25)
  • 2x OMs (D1 and Whatever VGC leaders thinks best represents their tier)
Click to expand...
Alright, I've reflected a bit more and I think these are the 8 Metas I believe will be the most positive Impact for the growth of this Community and Positive reception from the new and old alike: All Bo1 BTW if Bo3 is too time consuming.

  • Any 2026 Format (Recency matters in my opinion) OR December 25 (cuz is close enough)
  • December 23 (Iconic)
  • March 24 (Iconic)
  • October-B (Best for the Old Dogs)
  • April 24 (High Skill format that Smogon players will enjoy)
  • June 24 ( IMO this one is Iconic)
  • October 24 (Historic First Showdown Ladder, was competitive)
  • April 25 (Most Balanced format we've had)
 
Quite late to the party, but i might as well leave my 2 cents. As tryingtolearnstall put it, month preferences are extremely subjective. Personally, in the almost 2 and a half years of being part of 35 pokes, there is pretty much only 1 meta i actually didnt like, and it was likely due to a skill issue on my end. As mentioned, i dont think there is any particular bad picks for metas, so i will just put the 8 i personally would like the most.

  • Aug 23 (my og meta, still a great one)
  • Sep 23 (quite an unpopular one but im still fond of it)
  • Feb 24 (the obvious pick, quite fun even if the meta for it got a bit too defensive for my liking)
  • Sep 24 (Maybe a bit narrow on what the meta mons are but it has 2 viable weathers, i cant be against it)
  • Feb 25 (Really fun one imo, you can pretty much use whatever mon and it most likely has some niche)
  • May 25 (The only month with my favorite mon AND rain is not only viable but almost ban worthy? Best meta for sure)
  • Nov 25 (The Hydrogen Hammer vs 34 Coughing ZUs meta, i know many dont like it but gotta disagree, is just too funny)
  • Dec 25 (Tough last pick but i quite enjoyed our last meta)
Again, this list is purely subjective, based not on how well liked by the community or balanced the metas are but on what i enjoyed playing the most
 
Ember Celica said:
Welcome to the second edition of the National Dex 35 Pokes Premier League! The purpose of this thread is to help determine which 35 Pokes formats should be featured in this upcoming season of the PL!

The format list this year will be characteristically similar to last year, with a mix of classic tournament metagames, popular metagames, and metagames that represent the best of what 35 Pokes has had to offer over the past year. OM formats that already received a spotlight last year, such as Seniors, will not be included in season 2, leaving room for another OM or another beloved 35 Pokes meta (or maybe even both at the same time!!) to be featured while Seniors takes a well-earned rest. The 2 most promising OMs for inclusion right now are 35 VGC and 35 Perfect. 35 VGC, as the name suggests, is 35 Pokes played with current regulation VGC format rules. There are no restricted Pokémon, and tournaments typically mandate Open Team Sheets. 35 VGC has a robust and highly skilled playerbase, with some of its top players also seeing great success in similar VGC or 4v4 Doubles based formats! 35 Perfect, by far the largest 35 Pokes OM, takes the 35 Pokes concept and asks one important question: what if the 35 Pokémon were chosen by human hands instead of a computer algorithm?
35 Perfect features continual iterations of both its original format and the other formats which have spawned within it since the tier's creation, all with the goal of creating the most perfect list of 35 Pokémon possible. As such, formats are labeled with an alphanumeric code with each subtier assigned a letter and each iteration of that tier assigned a number corresponding to which iteration it is.

This thread will be opened for 1, possibly 2 weeks if needed for the community to discuss what tiers they would like to see included in this year's edition of the 35 PL. Remember, each player can only play one tier at a time in a given week and so if two extremely popular tiers have significant main playerbase overlap, one may be benched in favor of a seemingly less popular tier with a more diverse main playerabse. Last year's edition of this premier had 10 slots, and so we will be operating under the tentative assumption that we will be able to field 10 slots once again and decide the list of tiers accordingly. This is primarily for preparation purposes; it is far easier to prepare for 10 and go down to 8 if, by the time the league gets closer to beginning, that emerges as the best option, than it is to prepare for 8 and find ourselves unexpectedly 2 tiers short of a full league.

To assist with getting the discussion started, we have prepared a tentative list of metagames we think may work well as a tier list for 35PL II! This list is very subject to change based on the feedback you all provide here, but a considerable amount of thought went into this list and every included format has a very strong justification for being there. We know that many of you may have differing opinions, and we look forward to hearing both which metagames you believe ought to be included and the strong reasons behind why you believe so!

Tentative 35 PL II Playable Tiers List:





Post format stolen from/inspired by National Dex Alternate Metagames PL - Format Discussion
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I’m a new player to 35 and only really started around September so I’m not sure how much I can say about past metagames, but a 35 vgc sounds really cool! Doubles opens up a lot more strategies and usage for mons that might otherwise not be used, and could let some lesser known players shine (not me I am cheeks at VGC). It would be super interesting to see it for a month!

If other suggestions are up for grabs too, I think a 35 monotype would be really fun. Might have to be some hand selected to make sure there’s enough for multiple teams, but I do love me some monotype
 
Hey guys! We should totally include a 35 seniors meta. It would be so cool!! We even have a new one!
Ember Celica said:
OM formats that already received a spotlight last year, such as Seniors, will not be included in season 2
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Oh...

Anyways. I'm honestly kind of suprised there's a question between 35 perfect and another om? It's by far the most popular om and absolutely deserves a spot in season 2. I've seen all the work that gets put into it (or well, gotten a lot of pings), and think its a really cool meta. If there could be a second slot for an om I think VGC or LC getting it would be very reasonable (although its my understanding that LC is an inactive meta so I'm not sure how that affects things). Anywho, thats all my actual thoughts I wanted to give.


You should play 35 Seniors, you should play 35 Seniors, you should play 35 Seniors, you should play 35 Seniors, you should play 35 Seniors-
 
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