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NOC Tracker Jailer Follower - Game Thread - Its Over!

eh it's prob overall better that Neon got subbed for someone who played then lol

would've been way more brutal to vote out jal with Neon sitting there :psynervous:
 
First and most importantly: I am sorry to any town who I inadvertently gave false hope to, it was 100% not my intention to BM in any way or to drag things out. As I posted in the mafia Discord server:
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Basically, I was waiting for host confirmation before voting Jalmont and potentially giving myself away. Given the thread state and my mental grogginess due to having just woken up, I didn't want to risk outing myself without that confirmation. However, in the 30 minutes after my post, I saw that Cel and Peum were starting to solve / waste time finding evidence against Jalmont, and I felt badly about that. So, instead of waiting for the host confirmation I wanted, as soon as I was on a computer I wrote up a short post justifying hammering Jalmont that I figured wouldn't give myself away if I had made some miscalculation.

Again, I am sorry to any town who were led on by that (particularly Cel) - I really wasn't trying to be a bad sport or anything like that.

Second main point is that in hindsight my subbing was not very fair to town. I obviously did not know Neon's alignment when I offered to sub in for him, but I really did truly believe he was town and that Cel / Peum or Cel / ShyP were the remaining mafia. My subbing created a somewhat unprecedented situation: I had been solving as an observer from a VT perspective for literal cycles on end, so I could just step into a void (due to Neon having very little prior behavior which I would have to answer for) with legitimate VT-perspective thoughts that couldn't easily be challenged because they were legitimate VT thoughts. I basically just had to post what I would've posted anyway if Neon had been VT, and this dynamic made it almost impossible for town to solve at that stage.

Third and final point is a big thank you to ShyP for giving me their read of the situation and chatting with me in the mafia Discord.

It was fun playing with you all, though I sincerely regret the circumstances in which it happened and the resulting town loss. I was rooting for you guys as an observer, and I do think that there should probably be some rule to ban subbing past like Day 3 or something based on this precedent.
 
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thanks for hosting! This was fun even if I didn't have the time I wanted to dedicate to this as much as I hoped.

Congrats to Pebble, Neon, and Celever for bringing the mafia back after a rough start. I can't believe des was actually mafia this time...
 
nah sometimes reliable players need to be subbed due to irl circumstances

the real to-do here is to give signup timeouts to players who are repeatedly unreadable or subbed out due to lowposting/afk. make the playerlists smaller to accommodate.

no personal offense intended to anyone who feels this applies to them, i like yall, but for game/playerlist health... only so many nocs one can watch with the same song and dance.
 
Part of why I wasn't talking much was that I just didn't know what to say beyond a certain point, especially since, without actually seeing half of the game, I couldn't really comment on any of the posts that were in the present tense.
And I can't really push an agenda or a certain vote when I have nothing to push with.
Plus, y'know, school was also starting back up, so that was even less time I could spend trying to get something done with nothing.
 
Snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!

I have a lot of things I'd like to say but I am also an adult so I just need to move on. Probably won't be back for a long time, although posting in wingdings is pretty low effort so maybe I'll be back sooner than I think! Enjoy the games in the meantime everyone. Thank you for hosting and everyone for playing.
 
Yeti said:
nah sometimes reliable players need to be subbed due to irl circumstances

the real to-do here is to give signup timeouts to players who are repeatedly unreadable or subbed out due to lowposting/afk. make the playerlists smaller to accommodate.

no personal offense intended to anyone who feels this applies to them, i like yall, but for game/playerlist health... only so many nocs one can watch with the same song and dance.
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adding onto this again not meaning any offense, but it does really suck that it's starting to feel optimal to be like. "here's a list of players that are either usually afk or worth more to town dead than alive, let's kill them first while we have the largest possible numbers advantage" and even worse when two people in the second category there happen to be scum. Not trying to shade mafia for doing what needed to be done either, it's just more general frustration with LHF players bubbling over. It's also not super fair to LHF players if they keep getting voted out early, though, because it means they can never actually improve since it's always optimal to dump a des or chronic afk-er early regardless of their alignment. It's a vicious cycle.
 
Miyami~~~ said:
adding onto this again not meaning any offense, but it does really suck that it's starting to feel optimal to be like. "here's a list of players that are either usually afk or worth more to town dead than alive, let's kill them first while we have the largest possible numbers advantage" and even worse when two people in the second category there happen to be scum. Not trying to shade mafia for doing what needed to be done either, it's just more general frustration with LHF players bubbling over. It's also not super fair to LHF players if they keep getting voted out early, though, because it means they can never actually improve since it's always optimal to dump a des or chronic afk-er early regardless of their alignment. It's a vicious cycle.
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I mean it's a great strategy though because as you can see with this game, people just trip over themselves to make poor decisions and find a way to lose. It's pretty incredible when you think about it. Neon made 2-3 game related posts since the new year and that was enough to win the game because people are so attached to their feelings. I wish no sub had been made at all, because it really would've emphasized the absurdity even more. There's no point trying to out talk the big talkers so might as well just be quiet and let them run into each other. How can you be frustrated with that kind of gameplay when it wins the game?
 
jalmont said:
There's no point trying to out talk the big talkers so might as well just be quiet and let them run into each other.
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It was also a thing of "I literally have nothing to talk about that is of any relevance at this point because I'm so far behind and don't have the context needed to form opinions on the current tense."
 
jalmont said:
How can you be frustrated with that kind of gameplay when it wins the game?
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Except the problem with this level of lurking means you have multiple slots that, despite not being mafia, are actively anti-town and refusing to contribute while being an easy misvote hazard or counter wagon for scum (as we almost saw on day 1). It becomes so much harder, and I’d argue it’s a major part of why smogtown win percentage is so low.
 
jalmont said:
I mean it's a great strategy though because as you can see with this game, people just trip over themselves to make poor decisions and find a way to lose. It's pretty incredible when you think about it. Neon made 2-3 game related posts since the new year and that was enough to win the game because people are so attached to their feelings. I wish no sub had been made at all, because it really would've emphasized the absurdity even more. There's no point trying to out talk the big talkers so might as well just be quiet and let them run into each other. How can you be frustrated with that kind of gameplay when it wins the game?
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I think my issue is less that the strategy works and more that the optimal play for town with these people is just to spend the first few game days purging the same people every time. Someone like Des's value to town essentially begins and ends with her role flip, so why not get rid of her d1 every time? It's essentially optimal, but at a certain point it feels icky to me from a moral pov if we just do it so many times in a row. And she's not even the only player who I'd argue is a detriment to town but will never be subbed out for inactivity. Do we just start every game hitting all those people while hoping the inactives get subbed out, then hope to make up a numbers deficit later?
 
Dead by Daylight said:
Except the problem with this level of lurking means you have multiple slots that, despite not being mafia, are actively anti-town and refusing to contribute while being an easy misvote hazard or counter wagon for scum (as we almost saw on day 1). It becomes so much harder, and I’d argue it’s a major part of why smogtown win percentage is so low.
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Miyami~~~ said:
I think my issue is less that the strategy works and more that the optimal play for town with these people is just to spend the first few game days purging the same people every time. Someone like Des's value to town essentially begins and ends with her role flip, so why not get rid of her d1 every time? It's essentially optimal, but at a certain point it feels icky to me from a moral pov if we just do it so many times in a row. And she's not even the only player who I'd argue is a detriment to town but will never be subbed out for inactivity. Do we just start every game hitting all those people while hoping the inactives get subbed out, then hope to make up a numbers deficit later?
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I hear you both, I agree that it is frustrating. The reality is this is not a mafia focused site so we have varying skill levels and ways to play the game, which is fine and I think more interesting than everyone being hard core mafia players. People don't get better unless they play, and improvement isn't linear. While I don't condone targeting certain players, I think it is a valid strategy and it certainly would've won the game here. But there's enough different personalities and lines of thinking on smogon where it's just not going to happen every time.

again though, the "problem" in so much there is one really isn't low posters. for the most part every town player was relatively active and not "anti-town" and we lost. The mafia actually played an incredible game when you really look at it. They actively removed all their win con threats ie people who were willing to vote non-contributors and set up an end game where they literally could AFK and win. That's a pretty insane level of dominance from having the worst possible start as mafia. actually if you swapped any one of the f3 towns with a lurker, the town win probability would actually have increased. so yeah, maybe it is optimal to always vote out lurkers - but that's not going to happen in every game. so the point is kind of moot. the solution is to find ways to win regardless of how much posting is happening. I have some thoughts but it's beyond me to suggest to anyone how they should play :toast:
 
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