Announcement Regarding the current state of old gen Pure Hackmons (The 2nd Round)

[Ransei]

The first thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/regarding-the-state-of-old-gen-pure-hackmons.3733298/

Two years ago we as the OM and Pure Hackmons community decided to make the shift from Gen 6 Pure Hackmons to Gen 7 Pure Hackmons in order to explore how it'd pan out. The community has been largely hooked into the metagame at first and we've been getting lots of development since, which I'm personally glad of, but throughout the past year I've observed a noticeable lack of interest in people either playing the metagame or using experiences found in this metagame to maintain a consistently meaningful discussions regarding resources pushed out, whether it's experiences gathered from ladder or experiences gathered from tournaments. The ladder in particular has also been increasingly disliked by the playerbase at large and the tournaments have been deemed less favorable than ORAS Pure Hackmons due to Gen 7 Pure Hackmons tour games being considered less competitive compared to ORAS Pure Hackmons. The decline of reception in both of these has led to people not wanting to take either as a serious metric to determine this metagame's resources and has been a source of many conflictions when it came to discussions about the metagame.

On the contrary, ORAS, despite not having a ladder currently, has only kept consistently flowing with attention. Its reception and higher potential for competitive gameplay has led to it taking up more spotlight than USUM Pure Hackmons in tournaments such as HPL II and OMCL, despite our current main focus being USUM Pure Hackmons. ORAS Pure Hackmons also now has its own thread, is expected to have future representation in Smogon tournaments, and there's been sights of interest to revive ORAS Pure Hackmons analyses, which is something USUM Pure Hackmons never got due to the unrealistic nature of condensing the wider variety of sets a Pokemon have in USUM Pure Hackmons, the overall lack of demand, and arguably the metagame's frequent shifts in trends and discoveries. The return of ORAS Pure Hackmons ladder has also been increasingly high in demand since mid to late 2025, with many requests coming towards me, in general spaces in the Pure Hackmons community, and even spaces outside the Pure Hackmons room and Discord.

In conclusion, I believe it would be best for this community to shift its primary focus and permaladder back to ORAS Pure Hackmons. It appears to be more favored by the Pure Hackmons community overall, by the majority of noteworthy players who have tried USUM, and even by some (but not all) members of the USUM council overall. Despite a lot of development having been made in ORAS already, it's looking to have a brighter future ahead with the Pure Hackmons playerbase being able to look up to this metagame more positively these days. I've brought this up with all the most notable Pure Hackmons players in the community and the consensus on shifting its ladder back to ORAS Pure Hackmons has been nigh-unanimous so far. This thread is to officially gauge a response over whether or not the community wants Pure Hackmons to transition back to Generation 6. Feel free to express your thoughts over whether it should or should not transition and why. Also feel free to bring up anything else about your thoughts regarding the state of Pure Hackmons.


Few things to note:
Current generation is not an option - It will heavily detract attention from the current generation Balanced Hackmons ladder.

Multiple Pure Hackmons permaladders co-existing is not an option - In order for activity to be maintained in smaller formats on the sim, only one variation of it should be ladder at a time. With two or more generations of the same smaller format co-existing, they both become at risk of faulting in its activity.

A reversion or change in the long-run is not out the window. This was brought up in the previous thread and well, here's your example now. Changes can be made back if any major possible outcry happens.

 

[aerobee]

Speaking as myself, not as a member of any PH council or a liaison of the community:

ORAS PH is both circumstantially and intrinsically better as a ladder meta than USUM PH. Both metagames strongly incentivize winning in the builder in a tournament setting, but on ladder ORAS PH features tools that offer greater consistency, but are relatively difficult to successfully pilot, while USUM PH doesn't, meaning a ladder would offer greater intrinsic value to the former format by introducing an environment where playing skill is indirectly rewarded. I have made my stance on the feasibility of matchup fishing in tournaments clear, but many of these effects are most significant in a best-of-one setting where opponent(s) are predetermined, and therefore would not apply to the corresponding ladder metagame to the same extent. USUM PH's metagame incentivizes only creativity in the builder with relatively little playing skill required to play "basically" optimally in-game, except in the occasional offense mirror with relatively even matchup.

However, all this begs the question of what the PH community wants itself to develop into. A considerable proportion of the "new" (2024 or later) PH playerbase consists of players who initially played USUM PH on ladder and found themselves in the PH room/Discord server, or are BH players looking to give the format (which BH intuition will be more helpful in learning than for ORAS PH) a try. In contrast, a sizable proportion of the ORAS PH playerbase were active >5 years ago, some even from when ORAS was current-gen, and given the limited options to bypass Wonder Guard and check Mold Breaker users with Pokemon not vulnerable to Shadow Tag the teambuilding process may dissuade potential players. In short, a shift to ORAS PH would result in a general appreciation for playing skill relative to the present, but probably less focused on teambuilding ideas or meaningful metagame development, at least compared to USUM PH.

In the end the community decides what it wants, but I personally lean towards switching back to the ORAS PH ladder, with the potential for periodic USUM PH individual tours if the community feels like it/Hackmons PL is not considered enough representation for USUM PH, as the best compromise for the overall appreciation of both metagames.

 

[IReallyDontKnowlol2]

I must preface this response with the fact that I don't have the greatest knowledge of ORAS PH and thus can't make 100% accurate assessments on the state of it's meta.

Firstly, my biggest critique with this piece is how seriously it takes the hatred of USUM PH's ladder. While I concede that some people feel genuine hate towards it, I think that is inevitable for most any ladder due to the nature of the game. As well as this, I think most comments hating ladder are made in jest. Whether this hatred increases in the future I think is not certain. My main complaint about the loss of a permanent USUM PH ladder would be the potential lack of development that comes as a result. From what I can gather, while I'm sure it was still getting some development, ORAS' meta was slowing down [at the time of it's ladder being nuked]. I think USUM PH is still largely unexplored and thus is more of a loss to be rid of. (Again, I'm not too well-versed in the developments of ORAS PH so please feel free to correct me on this).

Secondly, I think USUM PH has accrued a large enough playerbase that wouldn't play ORAS that it risks the meta getting players to replace it. I am aware that this same problem was faced and overcome when USUM replaced ORAS but from what I can see from Discord logs and thread activity, USUM is currently larger than ORAS was. (Note that the playerbase being risked here isn't competitive players [many would be happy to make the switch] but casual players which keep the ladder alive). Here we must acknowledge that USUM PH is more of a "casual" meta which is why I think asking top players if we should make the switch is disingenuous as they have a vested interest in it.

I think most of the evidence brought up in the original post points towards top players wanting more opportunities to play PH competitively (i.e tournaments) and as ORAS is the more competitive gen, it is the vessel upon which they communicate that point. Overall, I think the current strategy of having an USUM ladder but having ORAS represent PH in tournaments and the like is the best way going forward.

 

[Rain]

I have around 0 knowledge about ORAS pure hackmons the metagame or the ladder existing 2 years ago, but during the 2 year when we have ladder for USUM I definitely felt the flaw in the metagame, ORAS would absolutely be a more competitive meta due to the existance of the analysis as they are the solid proofs that this metagame can work just like other ones. Tho imo the main problem for USUM PH ladder is not the mechanic of the ladder itself, its the lack of the attention and efforts put in the meta. Ladder would always be the best way for this metagame to develop, but even if it's the best way for it its still pretty bad. Back then when its around 2024 the ladder was still pretty competitive thanks to the consistent involvement of the players, but after a period of time people have lost the intrest in this game and as a result, the quality or the competitiveness has drastically decreased. Yet I know nothing about ORAS PH but I wonder here if similar thing will happen to that yet again. I also get a suggestion here so we can do it like the spotlights where people vote for which generation to be with ladder every month for a permanent ladder have somewhat been proven to be boring to the players, also note that how both generations are not developing in a quick pace, meaning that a gap of a month or two should be acceptable, and this can also give the other generations a chance.

 

[mayonnaise. mayo.]

I haven't played PH in a while, but I'll give my take.

In my opinion, the main reason USUM PH is considered unenjoyable right now is because of the ladder. Because it has a ladder, it is played regularly and thus is constantly developing. In a metagame where anything you can think of is legal, someone will discover a good set and someone else will find the perfect counterplay to it. In simple terms, a constantly developing meta such as PH is most definitely going to be a giant matchup fish.
The one thing I fear is if ORAS gets a ladder again, it will have the same problem. Despite ORAS not having things people consider problematic in USUM (CFZs, Moldy moves, etc.), ORAS has problems exclusive to it as well. 80% accurate DVoid, 50% confusion proc chance instead of 33%, and more. I believe the luck factors these things will bring will make people discontent with the meta again, and then we'll all be back to this exact problem. Furthermore, this tier also has no bans, just like every other PH gen. If it gets a ladder, I believe the meta will be stuck in an unending loop of development, making the tier another matchup fish.

After a good amount of thinking, I've narrowed my decision down to two options:

1. Things remain the same as they are right now. (USUM represents PH as a ladder, ORAS represents PH in tournaments)
2. USUM ladder is removed and ORAS ladder doesn't come back, either leaving PH with no ladder representation or a different gen (i.e. SV) gets a ladder. Both USUM and ORAS will represent PH in tournaments equally.

In my opinion, I think the best and safest option is Option 1, as gens not named ORAS or USUM aren't liked as much by the PH community as those that are. There are a few exceptions, but only a small portion of the PH community care about them.

 

[Yunie]

we should replace it with ss instead

but seriously, echoing support for a swap back over to oras over usum. usum isn't bad but i think it's lost its appeal for a lot of people, including myself, and i would prefer seeing oras grow instead.

 

[Glory]

there's been sights of interest to revive ORAS Pure Hackmons analyses, which is something USUM Pure Hackmons never got due to the unrealistic nature of condensing the wider variety of sets a Pokemon have in USUM Pure Hackmons, the overall lack of demand, and arguably the metagame's frequent shifts in trends and discoveries.

I really do not care about any outcome here but I found this tidbit to be particularly contentious because:
1)

there’s also examples of sets where barely any of the viable options were listed so there are most certainly ways of trimming down sets to make analyses easier
2) there really has been negligible activity to revive oras analyses from what I can see (c&c cord has a grand total of 5 messages since June, all on one day)
3) if there was any push from higher up (people already engaged with c&c stuff) to do usum analyses then I am beyond certain that there would be no lack of people who would want to write or qc and all that shit

 

[IReallyDontKnowlol2]

do usum analyses then I am beyond certain that there would be no lack of people who would want to write or qc and all that shit

Amending this point by bringing up that hackmons.com (site made for posting Hackmons sets and writing analysis) has significantly more detailed USUM sets than ORAS.

As well as this, when I was writing a few of them, basically everyone I DM'd to help do qc and make edits was responsive and very helpful. Do with that information what you will but I think it shows that people would write analysis for USUM if given the opportunity.

 

[Viola ~ Lunala ^﹏^]

I'll voice my opinion on this! the reasons for this in my opinion being a good things is that, one USUM has gotten stale and boring the sets are so boring or stale and even if you do find something new all it takes is like five minutes and everyone has a counter to it, USUM has just overall gotten boring and or two easy to play in and therefore lost it's appeal as something and like honestly. In my opinion at least having a change of overall Pace in PH ladder wise would also probably bring back players Aswell and get the community engaged again! finding new sets which would be fun while there might be people who think USUM should STAY I honestly think changing the PACE to ORAS would be nice! so overall I feel like the Ladder should be changed to Gen six ORAS

 

[Akira]

I think aerobee's point about ORAS appealing mostly to older community members is a pretty relevant one, and it'd be a shame to see USUM go since that ladder can be a lot of fun and is certainly more accessible. Having two permaladders is obviously not an option, but wouldn't it be possible to simply not have a PH permaladder at all and instead have a monthly rotational, that can most of the time alternate ORAS and USUM but, if the community wanted to try out something else, could feature older or newer gens for a month as well.

EDIT: Ballfire suggested a 3 month rotational below, that's much better than my 1-month suggestion and I endorse that idea.

 

[ANinjaDude]

I'm personally in favor of keeping USUM the ladder because there's more degeneracy and buffoonery you can get up to in USUM than in ORAS. And also Chatter can go join Willy A. in the fire.

 

[Rain]

Amending this point by bringing up that hackmons.com (site made for posting Hackmons sets and writing analysis) has significantly more detailed USUM sets than ORAS.

As well as this, when I was writing a few of them, basically everyone I DM'd to help do qc and make edits was responsive and very helpful. Do with that information what you will but I think it shows that people would write analysis for USUM if given the opportunity.

same here I would absolutely love to do the analysis steps for usm ph

 

[aidan amoongus]

i do think more of the community is bending towards oras from my perspective, but i feel like usum is a easier tier to learn and more fun imo.

I think aerobee's point about ORAS appealing mostly to older community members is a pretty relevant one, and it'd be a shame to see USUM go since that ladder can be a lot of fun and is certainly more accessible. Having two permaladders is obviously not an option, but wouldn't it be possible to simply not have a PH permaladder at all and instead have a monthly rotational, that can most of the time alternate ORAS and USUM but, if the community wanted to try out something else, could feature older or newer gens for a month as well.

however i do like this idea with a monthly rotational ladder so people can get a taste of both usum and oras

 

[blahpy]

I love ORAS. We are so back.
Still not allowed to have both ladders I assume though? Then those who prefer USUM could still find games more easily.

 

[Wyrd]

I think aerobee's point about ORAS appealing mostly to older community members is a pretty relevant one, and it'd be a shame to see USUM go since that ladder can be a lot of fun and is certainly more accessible. Having two permaladders is obviously not an option, but wouldn't it be possible to simply not have a PH permaladder at all and instead have a monthly rotational, that can most of the time alternate ORAS and USUM but, if the community wanted to try out something else, could feature older or newer gens for a month as well. EDIT: if i had to pick id rather go oras tho.

This seems to be a good idea, the best of both worlds. I think most of us are finding usum a bit stale atp and while people have fears about oras becoming another mu fish, this would seem to be the best of both worlds. We get a break from the low ladder bs and mu fish of usum, and when we have usum, we get a break from dvoid and chatter.

 

[G0dlyPyukumuku]

This seems to be a good idea, the best of both worlds. I think most of us are finding usum a bit stale atp and while people have fears about oras becoming another mu fish, this would seem to be the best of both worlds. We get a break from the low ladder bs and mu fish of usum, and when we have usum, we get a break from dvoid and chatter.

I think it might be a good idea but it might discourage some people from joining PH. I think all of us started with low ladder bullsht but we learned from it so new players might not want to play two formats at once especially since the two are very different

 

[Wyrd]

I think it might be a good idea but it might discourage some people from joining PH. I think all of us started with low ladder bullsht but we learned from it so new players might not want to play two formats at once especially since the two are very different

Maybe, but i started with gen 9 (it was the om of the month when i joined) and when it stopped i just moved my gen 9 bs into gen 7 bs, and as a low ladder there wasn’t much difference

 

[Child of Night]

I really don't see a good reason to bring ORAS back when even the concerts about it from 2 years ago still hold up, while USUM has kept on showing why it is the better pick for ladder.

The majority of people from what I see wanted gen 7 to be the ladder due to gen 6 becoming stale, and not getting that much development as the meta has been mostly figured out while gen 7 had lots of room for development. This is still the case today, with USUM (despite a small number of people saying otherwise) still developing very rapidly, with no real sign of development slowing down.

Another reason why ORAS was replaced by USUM as the permaladder was due to ORAS being considered to be more competitive but more restrictive in builder, while USUM was somewhat less competitive but much more freeing in builder which is appealing to a much wider variety of people. Even after 2 years of USUM ladder being up, this still holds true, with a very broad range of teams and compositions being competitively viable, and even more being found out as time goes on. ORAS on the other hand hasn't really shown to have changed much in this regard, with very centralized Pokemon being on top. This can be seen by looking at samples in both of the generations, with ORAS having things like Pdon, Mray, and Mgyara being on over half the samples, while in USUM the only Pokemon that are used in a similar amount are MMX and Chnasey/Blissey, but these 2 Pokemon have a much wider variety of sets than those in ORAS. Chansey/Blissey maybe not exactly, but they can play a very wide variety of roles game to game, which makes up for the fact that basically only 2 sets are used with them.

Also, while I did say ORAS is more competitive, I would like to say that it really isn't THAT much more competitive, with MU fishing and RNG still being a big part of the meta. While USUM may be slightly less competitive, it still is a competitive meta. Some people may disagree on this part but I feel like the disparity between ORAS and USUM is usually exaggerated so I wanted to point this out.

(Though I have no real way of proving this, I also feel like USUM is better for the general ladder player, who isn't exactly trying to play as competitively as possible, but just trying to have fun on ladder. Again, I have no way of proving this but I do think it is true.)

---

Anyway, people keep asking why a rotating ladder cannot be done? I feel like it is a genuine answer and I have not yet seen an explanation why it has not been done. To add to this, even if a rotating ladder cannot be done, maybe USUM or ORAS could have a more frequent monthly ladder, something like every few months, one of the gens which does not have a permaladder will have a monthy ladder, or maybe even one of them has weekly ladder every start of the month? Or even there being a ladder every weekend or something. Just throwing stuff out there, maybe someone else will make a better argument for this but idrc if it is implemented or not.

 

[Ballfire]

As a fan of ORAS PH, I'd like to give some more reasons why I think ORAS deserves another chance in the spotlight.
I feel that the meta game is inherently more balanced and competitive than USUM. While USUM is fun and crazy, I find it hard to teambuild and play in a way that makes me feel in control of the outcome of the game.
Let's say there's an opposing Kartana. It could be No Guard + Sheer Cold, Huge Power, Magic Guard or Wonder Guard. All of these sets require different counterplay yet can't be distinguished on switch-in.
Of course ORAS has it's fair share of "PH moments" but ironically the dominance of Mold Breaker and Wonder Guard streamlines counterplay while still allowing for creativity.

Innovations like various Poison Heal mons, Mold Breaker Mega-Rayquaza or even cheeses like No Guard Giratina have all left their mark on the meta game.

I truly believe that ORAS is more fun and many of the new players would come to enjoy the meta game if they got a chance to play it. I also find it more accessible than USUM due to much more ressources (even if some of them are outdated), and because there's a pretty well established formula for building standard teams (2 Wonder Guard, 1-2 Mold Breakers, Prankster Giratina, 1 Shadow Tag).

If a rotating ladder is a consideration, I think the rotation shouldn't be every month but maybe every three months.

 

[Yourself]

i have to post my thoughts on this because master aerobee told me to.

i do not like the usum ladder because if you're high ladder the queue times are stupidly bad, and if you're not high ladder you're going to die from boredom vs artficial intelligence every game (though even on high ladder you don't face competant players very often). people also like loading matchup fish sets, e.g. prank toxic sub leppa recycle arceus which bullies stall without 2 posion immunities and does fuck all into anything else. i'm not sure if the oras ladder actually resolves these issues, but im open to the change to oras ladder regardless because usum has became really stale.

 

[blahpy]

If a rotating ladder is a consideration, I think the rotation shouldn't be every month but maybe every three months.

I like this idea a lot. But also, if we can only have one, I would much rather it be ORAS.

It kind of says a lot when it's still the most popular tournament format despite not having had a ladder for several years.
This isn't to say that USUM is bad, it's just different and it seems that overall more players prefer ORAS in my very biased opinion.

 

[WindySnivy_]

i haven't played oras much considering i'm a new-ish ph player but i will say that i feel like USUM is a lot more creative than ORAS because ORAS is heavily centralized around mons like mray and xern and whatever whereas USUM has a lot more variety, which i think encompasses the idea of PH as a meta where you can run pretty much everything better. i also think that ORAS games are a bit boring because usually it just results in awkward switching wars whereas USUM has a lot more player involvement, as well as having a lot more read potential which might make it more skill based. that being said do take this with a pinch of salt as i'm a lot better at USUM than any other PH meta

 

[splodge]

late but i'm gonna post my thoughts, i haven't been playing ph very much lately (camove supremacy), mostly because

Ladder is a great way of playing the meta. You get a great stream of games going on a good day, alongside some epic games.

ok that was a joke, see what yourself said below

if you're high ladder the queue times are stupidly bad, and if you're not high ladder you're going to die from boredom vs artficial intelligence every game (though even on high ladder you don't face competant players very often)

and also because nowadays the ph community is making me want to reveal what ptoast said at 18:48 gmt on 11th october 2025, so i won't miss gen 7 ladder if it goes. as for gen 6, i honestly have no idea. i don't play this meta and from what i know it's a lot chatter and dark void gambling, but it's not as chaotic and brainless as gen 7. so idk. but i do like akira's idea of having a rotational ladder as it will make both metas feel less stale and there won't be people pissed about there not being an oras ladder if we keep usum or there not being an usum ladder if we switch to oras.

 

[ZeldaFan1]

As somebody who started during the ORAS cycle, I am perfectly fine leaving it in the past in terms of ladder. Say what you want about matchup fishes, or the ladder being a minor hellhole, but I have witnessed the horror of Gen 6 Chatter. There are few things worse then losing to fucking confusion rolls that you had zero counterplay into. I don't want to have to commit a blood sacrifice every time I see a MRay in preview to not just lose to 50-50s. Please God no, just keep USUM.

(Also Dark Void. Just no. Even more RNG checks that you have no control over.)

 

[Rain]

will we have a vote on this?