Quality Control Specially Defensive Empoleon (Water) (QC:1/2) (GP:0/1)

[aaaaahowdogamework]

[SET]
Empoleon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Name: Specially defensive (Water)
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon / Surf
- Roar / Knock Off
- Roost

[SET COMMENTS]
Empoleon’s unique defensive typing makes it valuable to Water teams, providing an answer to difficult threats like Kyurem, Flutter Mane, and Articuno. It also has an excellent toolkit for winning games with hazards, though the combination of Stealth Rock and Knock Off to remove Heavy-Duty Boots or Roar to rack up hazard damage on whatever gets dragged in, as well as Competitive threatening to turn it into a powerful offensive threat if the opponent Defogs. Flash Cannon makes Empoleon better at threatening Ice and Fairy types, whereas Surf allows it to punish Corviknight attempting to use Defog. Roar allows Empoleon to put a stop to special sweepers like Spectrier and Sinistcha; however Knock Off allows Empoleon to mitigate Pokemon that depend on their item like Kyurem, Corviknight, and Hisuian Goodra. Empoleon doesn't struggle to set Stealth Rock in the crucial Flying matchup, like Water's other setters, because it can set them on Articuno.

As a special wall, Empoleon wants to be part of a defensive core with physical walls and special walls that fill the gaps in Empoleon’s coverage, including Toxapex, Alomomola, Gastrodon, and Dondozo. Empoleon pairs well with Toxapex, as Toxic Spikes make Empoleon’s Roar far more dangerous and Toxic puts a timer on the opponent’s Pokemon, meaning Pokemon like Primarina and Volcarona don’t have enough turns to boost past Empoleon – which is otherwise a major weakness of non-Roar sets. Empoleon can switch in on Psychic moves targeted into Toxapex, while Toxapex can switch in on Fighting moves targeted into Empoleon, as well as a range of powerful physical attackers like Choice Band Meowscarada and Ceruledge. Empoleon pairs well with Alomomola, which can wish pass to keep Empoleon from being worn down by the barrage of Choice Specs-boosted special attacks that it gets thrown into from Flutter Mane, Kyurem, Dragapult and the like. Specially defensive Alomomola also takes pressure off of Empoleon by switching into special attacks and regenerating off the damage, allowing Empoleon to conserve its health for the most threatening special attackers and switches well into the Choice Scarf Landorus Earth Powers that Empoleon is unable to help with. Empoleon appreciates Gastrodon setting spikes, forming a strong hazard stacking core, as well as protecting Empoleon from having its Heavy-Duty Boots removed with Sticky Hold, and switching into the Electric moves that Empoleon struggles with. Similarly, Empoleon appreciates Hisuian Samurott’s effectiveness in getting up spikes with Ceaseless Edge. Empoleon is mostly useless in the Ground matchup, which is a major weakness as it is almost always paired with Toxapex, which is also unhelpful into Ground. As such, Empoleon appreciates partners that can pick up its slack in the Ground matchup, such as Choice Specs Greninja, Suicune, Ogerpon-W, and Manaphy. Choice Specs Greninja is an excellent complement for the bulky Water teams Empoleon usually resides on, being able to stop sweeps by Pokemon like the Ogerpon formes, Gholdengo and Pecharunt in their tracks.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Water
--------
Empoleon can also run Flip Turn to maintain momentum and keep the opponent in a vortex of switching and hazard chip, however Empoleon struggles to replace any of its moves with Flip Turn. Surf Empoleon can run 60 speed EVs to outspeed uninvested Corviknight, making it more dangerous for Corviknight to try to Defog. Empoleon can run Leftovers instead of Heavy-Duty Boots if it is paired with removal, enhancing its natural bulk. If you aren't running Knock Off or Flip Turn it is optimal to run a 0 Attack IV.

[SET CREDITS]
Written by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/aaaaahowdogamework.716162/
Quality checked by:
Grammar checked by:

 

[boomp]

ADD [COMMENT] REMOVE

Copyedit

[SET]
Empoleon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Name: whats the set name
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon / Surf
- Roar / Knock Off
- Roost

[SET COMMENTS]
Empoleon’s unique defensive typing makes it valuable to stall/semi-stall Water and give it a niche on balanced[Overall every style of water values empoleon.] Water teams, providing answers to difficult threats like Kyurem, Flutter Mane, and Articuno. It also has an excellent toolkit for winning games with hazards, though the combination of Stealth Rock and Knock Off to remove Heavy-Duty Boots or Roar to rack up hazard damage on whatever gets dragged in, as well as Competitive threatening to turn it into a powerful offensive threat if the opponent Defogs. Flash Cannon makes Empoleon better at threatening 1v1ing Ice- and Fairy-types, whereas Surf allows it to punish Corviknight attempting to use Defog for Defogging. Roar allows Empoleon to put a stop to special sweepers like Spectrier and Sinistcha; However,, and can also be used to force progress through hazard damage.[already mention this during the first two sentences no need to repeat.] Knock Off allows Empoleon to mitigate pokemon that depend on their item like Kyurem, Corviknight, and Hisuian Goodra, and removes Heavy-Duty Boots to ensure the opponent’s pokemon get worn down over time by hazards. Empoleon is a good Stealth Rock setter for Water as it can set rocks on Articuno.(this doesnt matter as we are not actively running knock as the main move to force pressure on cuno due to knocking off its boots so this means nothing. Again you mention what Stealth Rock does via intro sentence + its pretty self-explanatory.)

As a special wall, Empoleon wants to be part of a defensive core with physical walls and special walls that fill the gaps in Empoleon’s coverage. [since you started off with this opening line, pex + gastro + alomomola should be the first things you talk about then go on with greninja / hamu. So just move them in order.] Choice Specs Greninja is an excellent complement for the bulky Water teams Empoleon usually resides on, being able to stop sweeps by pokemon like the Ogerpon formes, Gholdengo and Pecharunt in their tracks, which Empoleon bulky Water teams otherwise struggle to shut down. [remember this is an empoleon analysis not water archtypes / teams as a whole] Empoleon pairs well with Toxapex, as Toxic Spikes make Empoleon’s Roar far more dangerous and Toxic puts a timer on the opponent’s pokemon, meaning pokemon like Primarina and Volcarona don’t have enough turns to boost past Empoleon – which is otherwise a major weakness of non-Roar sets. Meanwhile Empoleon removing Heavy-Duty Boots means Toxic immunities can be worn down by switching into Toxapex repeatedly.[just too many mentions of knocking off boots overall it just becomes too fluff / repetitive. the reader should now know about knock off mentions haha.] Empoleon can switch in on Psychic moves targeted into Toxapex, while Toxapex can switch in on Fighting moves targeted into Empoleon, as well as a range of powerful physical attackers like Choice Band Meowscarada and Ceruledge. Empoleon appreciates Gastrodon setting spikes, forming a strong hazard stacking core, making removing Heavy-Duty Boots and phasing pokemon into hazards far more potent, as well as protecting Empoleon from having its Heavy-Duty Boots removed knocked with Sticky Hold, and switching into the Electric moves that Empoleon struggles with. With rocks and spikes up, Empoleon roaring out threatening sweepers isn’t just delaying the threat but rapidly wearing them down. Similarly, Empoleon appreciates Hisuian Samurott’s effectiveness in getting up spikes with Ceaseless Edge. Hisuian Samurott appreciates Empoleon deterring Defog, to make up for it struggling to set spikes repeatedly, [Fluff, already been addressed during competitve sentence. Mention what Hamu is taking out for Empoleon instead.] as well as Empoleon switching into Fairy moves for it. Empoleon pairs well with Alomomola, which can wish pass to keep Empoleon from being worn down by the barrage of Choice Specs-boosted special attacks that it gets thrown into.[from?] Specially defensive Alomomola also takes pressure off of Empoleon by switching into special attacks and regenerating off the damage, allowing Empoleon to conserve its health for the most threatening special attackers and switches well into the Choice Scarf Landorus Earth Powers that Empoleon is unable to help with. Empoleon is mostly useless in the Ground matchup, which is a major weakness as it is almost always paired with Toxapex or Tentacruel, which are also unhelpful into Ground, leaving that matchup as essentially a 4 vs 6. As such, Empoleon appreciates partners that can pick up its slack in the Ground matchup, such as Choice Specs Greninja, Suicune and [what would be a good balance example? Ogerpon?] [Thats where you have greninja to talk about what its dealing for empoleon. its compression is amazing, dealing with pons, ground mu, etc.]
- Order of teammates should be:
pex, alomomola, gastro, hamu / greninja / and like filler mons dozo / mana / etc. can just be like towards the end of teammate selections. empoleon appreciates setup sweepers like...
[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Water
--------
Other options:
Empoleon can also run Flip Turn to maintain momentum and keep the opponent in a vortex of switching and hazard chip, however Empoleon struggles to replace any of its moves with Flip Turn. Surf Empoleon can run 60 speed EVs to outspeed uninvested Corviknight, making it more dangerous for Corviknight to try to Defog. Empoleon can run Leftovers instead of Heavy-Duty Boots if it is paired with removal, enhancing its natural bulk. If you aren't running Knock Off or Flip Turn it is optimal to run a 0 Attack IV.
[SET CREDITS]
Written by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/aaaaahowdogamework.716162/
Quality checked by:
Grammar checked by:

will check after implements before stamping this. For a first analysis this is good, just alot of fluff / repetition. also please make sure you follow format + make sure the headings are there. Easy way to implement the changes is to just click the copy edit button and go from there!

 

[aaaaahowdogamework]

Thank you for your detailed edits. Some of them I've already implemented, others I have questions about. I also have many questions resulting from not knowing best practices.

• Is empoleon good on all teams? I would have thought rain would almost always prefer swampert over empoleon and can’t fit both. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an empoleon rain above 1500. I don't think I even see empoleons on the more offensive variants of water balance.
• "this doesnt matter as we are not actively running knock as the main move to force pressure on cuno due to knocking off its boots so this means nothing."
  I’m afraid I don’t understand this- could you reword it?
• I don’t know if it’s true that greninja is particularly good into the threats empoleon invites in. Gholdengo and pecharunt don’t like switching in on empoleon because of knock, and roar empoleon is good into pecharunt. The threats empoleon invites in are things like swampert, gliscor, raging bolt, dd dragonite, which greninja isn’t good into (greninja isn’t good into gliscor because they stall pp and switch to articuno) hearthflame and ceruledge like to come in on empoleon and gren is good against them, but I can’t think of any other common ones right now. So I think it’s more about greninja pairing well with the things that pair well with empoleon- or the types of team empoleon is on- than greninja pairing well with empoleon. I don’t know whether/how to include things like that in an analysis. I could also include greninja and only say that it's good into the ground matchup and maybe mention hearthflame specifically since that's such a big threat, I don't know what's appropriate here.
• With the repetitive mentions of knocking boots I was trying to say different different things each time about how removing boots helps empoleon’s partners, but it ended up unclear and repetitive.In the toxapex section I wanted to bring up how a lot of teams have things that completely shut down toxapex, like hisuian goodra, opposing toxapex, heatran, amoonguss, which switch into toxapex forever but these almost all hate having their item removed and in many cases empoleon is well-suited to switching into them. Empoleon turns pex into a way of making progress which is unwallable in the long run, and it’s one of the most important synergies empoleon has. But I think I didn’t really get that across.
  In the gastrodon section I was trying to shoehorn in a mention of the problem that when empoleon roars something out it can often just come back later, making empoleon a fake check, and how spikes change that situation. I do want to include that if you think it’s reasonable to- should I add that into the first paragraph?
• Empoleon punishing defog is the main way empoleon benefits samurott, because samurott struggling to get spikes up multiple times means i really appreciates that, so I thought it was important to mention specifically. Is it more important to avoid repetitiveness? Also, I can't think of any pokemon that take advantage of empoleon that samurott is good at removing, besides perhaps gholdengo.
• I’m not sure where to mention the fact that empoleon can make your ground matchup very weak if you aren’t careful. Were you suggesting I put that inside of the greninja section? (am I allowed to mention other pokemon that also help with the ground matchup inside the greninja section?) or should I move it to the first paragraph? I do think it’s important to include.
• Am I supposed to include any common partners for empoleon even if they don’t have any particular synergy with empoleon besides fitting well on the same kind of teams, like dozo?
• By mentioning manaphy did you mean that that’s a good example of a balance pokemon that’s strong into ground? I’m not sure what to say about it other than that and things that apply to any offensive pokemon like hazards chipping things into range.
• Am I supposed to include filler mons?

 

[boomp]

ok lets get it

Is empoleon good on all teams? I would have thought rain would almost always prefer swampert over empoleon and can’t fit both. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an empoleon rain above 1500. I don't think I even see empoleons on the more offensive variants of water balance.
- when i meant on this or more so the versatility it brings to water teams as a whole instead of just categorizing it into certain playstyles. were trying to get the reader to really see why empoleon is a dope mon for water teams. Ladder stats and play like that doesnt really matter in these types of analyses mainly articles where you can differentiate.

"this doesnt matter as we are not actively running knock as the main move to force pressure on cuno due to knocking off its boots so this means nothing."
I’m afraid I don’t understand this- could you reword it?
honestly i deadass misread this thats on me as i was thinkin you was talking about apply stealth rock dmg on cuno but you meant in the face of the mon you can just set it up against it freely. Just correct the spelling on the rocks on articuno like:
Empoleon is a good Stealth Rock setter for Water as it can set it on Articuno, apply great pressure on Flying teams.


I don’t know if it’s true that greninja is particularly good into the threats empoleon invites in. Gholdengo and pecharunt don’t like switching in on empoleon because of knock, and roar empoleon is good into pecharunt. The threats empoleon invites in are things like swampert, gliscor, raging bolt, dd dragonite, which greninja isn’t good into (greninja isn’t good into gliscor because they stall pp and switch to articuno) hearthflame and ceruledge like to come in on empoleon and gren is good against them, but I can’t think of any other common ones right now. So I think it’s more about greninja pairing well with the things that pair well with empoleon- or the types of team empoleon is on- than greninja pairing well with empoleon. I don’t know whether/how to include things like that in an analysis. I could also include greninja and only say that it's good into the ground matchup and maybe mention hearthflame specifically since that's such a big threat, I don't know what's appropriate here.
- we have to also look at the set first for the first main slots on the build, we are not consistently running knock off so most things we are stuck with roar as a phaze move. we also need to shy away from specific scenarios as again this is an analysis, not an article or a usage tips section where the old school analyses use to do, etc. Greninja is dealing with majority of mons its inviting in. These analysis when talking about teammates is for new readers who are looking at this and be like: "what do i do if my greninja is infront of a unboosted dnite, gliscor, ground, etc." which is why when writing these analysis, think about it if its like if gren is infront of these mons what is it removing for empoleon that emp hates. do not worry about scenarios as this is not the goal of these. Overall you can combine the mons that helps in similar mus empoleon hates doing like how you mention manaphy and waterpon doing well against ground mus. you can do like Greninja, manaphy, and Ogerpon-W are solid options to pair with empoleon due to...(mention the mus). then from there if u want to go more into what they all do differently in other specific mus you can do that.
With the repetitive mentions of knocking boots I was trying to say different different things each time about how removing boots helps empoleon’s partners, but it ended up unclear and repetitive.In the toxapex section I wanted to bring up how a lot of teams have things that completely shut down toxapex, like hisuian goodra, opposing toxapex, heatran, amoonguss, which switch into toxapex forever but these almost all hate having their item removed and in many cases empoleon is well-suited to switching into them. Empoleon turns pex into a way of making progress which is unwallable in the long run, and it’s one of the most important synergies empoleon has. But I think I didn’t really get that across.
- nah i getcha but overall at this point the reader will know already how beneficial Knock Off is

In the gastrodon section I was trying to shoehorn in a mention of the problem that when empoleon roars something out it can often just come back later, making empoleon a fake check, and how spikes change that situation. I do want to include that if you think it’s reasonable to- should I add that into the first paragraph?
- idt its necessary here as the main purpose of gastro is to just be an electric immunity, hazard stack comp, knock absorber. again the readers here will be newer players so k.i.s.s. keep it short simple


Empoleon punishing defog is the main way empoleon benefits samurott, because samurott struggling to get spikes up multiple times means i really appreciates that, so I thought it was important to mention specifically. Is it more important to avoid repetitiveness? Also, I can't think of any pokemon that take advantage of empoleon that samurott is good at removing, besides perhaps gholdengo.
- yuh again all the hazard setter teammates appreciate empoleon punishing defog which is why i cut it down and to remove the repetitiveness. yes its important to avoid repetitiveness as the analysis becomes stale / not enjoyable to the point of they would just look at a few lines and be like well they mentioned it already alot of times above. plus you writing about it in the first paragraph already gives the reader a good viewpoint of how important defog disrupting is especially when you start mentioning alot of hazard stacking teammates.

• I’m not sure where to mention the fact that empoleon can make your ground matchup very weak if you aren’t careful. Were you suggesting I put that inside of the greninja section? (am I allowed to mention other pokemon that also help with the ground matchup inside the greninja section?) or should I move it to the first paragraph? I do think it’s important to include.
• Am I supposed to include any common partners for empoleon even if they don’t have any particular synergy with empoleon besides fitting well on the same kind of teams, like dozo?

- refer to my response above when talking about greninja and friends. yes you can add in dondozo if you want it was a suggestion as again empoelon steel typing dealing with kyurem and shit is the main selling point for many teammates synergy

• By mentioning manaphy did you mean that that’s a good example of a balance pokemon that’s strong into ground? I’m not sure what to say about it other than that and things that apply to any offensive pokemon like hazards chipping things into range.
• Am I supposed to include filler mons?

- yes as t glow manaphy just overall farms the ground mu. the filler mons as i said above, refer to when i was talking about the greninja section. you can group them together yes

overall: repetitiveness=bad as any1 can just look at the first few examples and be done with the analysis
analyses are just basically beginner guides to newer players so: Emp good cuz typing (kyurem check) / defog disruption / hazard setting / phazing + hazard chip
- teammates: what do they do / cover for empoleon. what would you tell a beginner / new player basically in a general perspective. if there are teammates that do similar jobs / handle similar mus, you can pair them together and if you want to each specialties, you can.

example: Gastrodon and Swampert provides a solid Electric immunity while also being able to deal with Archaludon and Raging bolt which Empoleon appreciates. Furthermore, Gastrodon formes a hazard stack core with empoleon thanks to Spikes and act as a Knock Off absorber thanks to Sticky Hold; Whereas Swampert utilizes Knock Off which allows for Empoleon to keep Roar slotted. Swampert also provides pivoting for Empoleon via Flip Turn.

 

[aaaaahowdogamework]

Thank you, I feel like I understand more about how to write analyses now. I do have some follow up questions, as there are still some things I don't understand:

You say I should think "what would you tell a beginner / new player basically in a general perspective." but if someone appeared in the monotype room asking about what they can put on a team with empoleon the number 1 thing I would tell them is they should put stall/bulky balance pokemon. I really wouldn't want a new player to read this analysis and then waste hours trying to make empoleon work on rain. Is not mentioning what teamstyles a pokemon fits on just an inflexible rule about analyses that I have to follow regardless? I also think you can't really justify why greninja is a good partner for empoleon without mentioning this.

Could you also elaborate on "Ladder stats and play like that doesnt really matter in these types of analyses mainly articles where you can differentiate."? I genuinely cannot think what else analyses could be based on. Like how do you decide that amoonguss is worth mentioning as a threat to gastrodon and vileplume isn't without referring to ladder usage?

"we have to also look at the set first for the first main slots on the build, we are not consistently running knock off" I think even so, greninja isn't helping with the majority of threats that come in on empoleon. E.g. pecharunt doesn't like coming in on roar empoleon either, as it does no damage unboosted and takes hazard chip. To expand my list, the threats that like to come in on empoleon are: swampert, gliscor, raging bolt, dd dragonite, ogerpons, scizor, hoopa, offensive garchomp, archaludon, roaring moon, calm mind primarina, azumarill, volcanion, ceruledge, zapdos, brambleghast, bulk up okidogi, gholdengo and hoodra if you aren't knock
of these, ceruledge is only good into ogerpons, ceruledge if it doesn't get a weak armor proc, zapdos, bulk up okidogi if gren has extrasensory, and gholdengo (it isn't good into azumarill because +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 220-259 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and if you take spikes twice it's guaranteed). So gren is dealing with a pretty small proportion. So I don't think rewriting to say greninja is a good partner because it stops sweepers that come in on empoleon would be accurate. I suppose it's not technically false, as it does stop some, so I could make that change if you really want me to, but I would much prefer not to.

Other than the greninja section and the opening line I've made every change now.

 

[boomp]

You say I should think "what would you tell a beginner / new player basically in a general perspective." but if someone appeared in the monotype room asking about what they can put on a team with empoleon the number 1 thing I would tell them is they should put stall/bulky balance pokemon. I really wouldn't want a new player to read this analysis and then waste hours trying to make empoleon work on rain. Is not mentioning what teamstyles a pokemon fits on just an inflexible rule about analyses that I have to follow regardless? I also think you can't really justify why greninja is a good partner for empoleon without mentioning this.
- because again the goal of these analysis shows the new readers why the written pokemon is a good pick for the type its being written on. i personally as well wouldnt tell a reader to utilize empoleon on rain (in ndm it is utilize well on Mega pert rain builds) but overall we are getting away of locking it on a archtype since this mon can work on water teams. a new player would can go and be like "my rain team is weak to rain and i cant pivot well into kyurem what mon can do that?" thats were empoleon comes in on that instance. Hell i wouldn't suggest ppl dropping pert on rain teams or utilizing alomo on rain builds and we see it happening. We are in Monotype not ou /uu / etc. where we have to put in team options or start off: this is best fit on semi stall / stall builds and then name all fat mons. Instead this purpose is hey readers you want to use empoleon on water? lemme show you why and what fits with it. So we have to look at it in an outside perspective and not closed in / locked into a playstyle unless the mon itself cannot work in any other playstyle. Which is why i said to just remove the playstyles and generalize it as its a good mon for water teams overall. SO PLEASE CHANGE IT TO: Empoleon’s unique defensive typing makes it valuable to Water teams providing answers to difficult threats like Kyurem, Flutter Mane, and Articuno.


Could you also elaborate on "Ladder stats and play like that doesnt really matter in these types of analyses mainly articles where you can differentiate."? I genuinely cannot think what else analyses could be based on. Like how do you decide that amoonguss is worth mentioning as a threat to gastrodon and vileplume isn't without referring to ladder usage?
- i only said that here because of what you mention b4 of you havent seen an empoleon rain above 1500. And also its not for hey it seen use here and there on the high ladder / tour. its for new readers who are introduced to the tier and wants to build a team on their own. So again, these analysis are here to let readers know why the mon is a good pick regardless so when they decide to build a team with it, they have a good idea of it. If we went base off of that for all our analyses, there would only be little written in the long run.


"we have to also look at the set first for the first main slots on the build, we are not consistently running knock off" I think even so, greninja isn't helping with the majority of threats that come in on empoleon. E.g. pecharunt doesn't like coming in on roar empoleon either, as it does no damage unboosted and takes hazard chip. To expand my list, the threats that like to come in on empoleon are: swampert, gliscor, raging bolt, dd dragonite, ogerpons, scizor, hoopa, offensive garchomp, archaludon, roaring moon, calm mind primarina, azumarill, volcanion, ceruledge, zapdos, brambleghast, bulk up okidogi, gholdengo and hoodra if you aren't knock
of these, ceruledge is only good into ogerpons, ceruledge if it doesn't get a weak armor proc, zapdos, bulk up okidogi if gren has extrasensory, and gholdengo (it isn't good into azumarill because +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 220-259 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and if you take spikes twice it's guaranteed). So gren is dealing with a pretty small proportion. So I don't think rewriting to say greninja is a good partner because it stops sweepers that come in on empoleon would be accurate. I suppose it's not technically false, as it does stop some, so I could make that change if you really want me to, but I would much prefer not to.
- this is why i said to clump teammates together that does similar vein. if we are thinking specific scenarios like this we are stuck in a vacuum and analyses would not be made. if gren is infront of unboosted d nite for example, 1v1 its dealing with thanks to ice beam. if gren is infront of azu, we are not thinking about what if spikes is on the field, what if azu is at +6 now. That is where the specific scenarios start to hinder analyses. which is why its just a general understanding of what the teammates threatens / checks for the mon and vice versa. If this was the case we would have Usage tips part of the format.

 

[boomp]

Copyedit

[SET]
Empoleon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Name: Specially defensive (Water)
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon / Surf
- Roar / Knock Off
- Roost

[SET COMMENTS]
Empoleon’s unique defensive typing makes it valuable to stall/semi-stall Water and give it a niche on balanced Water teams, providing answers to difficult threats like Kyurem, Flutter Mane, and Articuno. It also has an excellent toolkit for winning games with hazards, though the combination of Stealth Rock and Knock Off to remove Heavy-Duty Boots or Roar to rack up hazard damage on whatever gets dragged in, as well as Competitive threatening to turn it into a powerful offensive threat if the opponent Defogs. Flash Cannon makes Empoleon better at threatening Ice and Fairy types, whereas Surf allows it to punish Corviknight attempting to use Defog. Roar allows Empoleon to put a stop to special sweepers like Spectrier and Sinistcha; however Knock Off allows Empoleon to mitigate pokemon that depend on their item like Kyurem, Corviknight, and Hisuian Goodra. Empoleon doesn't struggle to set Stealth Rock in the crucial Flying matchup, like Water's other setters, because it can set them on Articuno.

As a special wall, Empoleon wants to be part of a defensive core with physical walls and special walls that fill the gaps in Empoleon’s coverage. Empoleon pairs well with Toxapex, as Toxic Spikes make Empoleon’s Roar far more dangerous and Toxic puts a timer on the opponent’s pokemon, meaning pokemon like Primarina and Volcarona don’t have enough turns to boost past Empoleon – which is otherwise a major weakness of non-Roar sets. Empoleon can switch in on Psychic moves targeted into Toxapex, while Toxapex can switch in on Fighting moves targeted into Empoleon, as well as a range of powerful physical attackers like Choice Band Meowscarada and Ceruledge. Empoleon pairs well with Alomomola, which can wish pass to keep Empoleon from being worn down by the barrage of Choice Specs-boosted special attacks that it gets thrown into from Flutter Mane, Kyurem, Dragapult and the like. Specially defensive Alomomola also takes pressure off of Empoleon by switching into special attacks and regenerating off the damage, allowing Empoleon to conserve its health for the most threatening special attackers and switches well into the Choice Scarf Landorus Earth Powers that Empoleon is unable to help with. Empoleon appreciates Gastrodon setting spikes, forming a strong hazard stacking core, as well as protecting Empoleon from having its Heavy-Duty Boots removed with Sticky Hold, and switching into the Electric moves that Empoleon struggles with. Similarly, Empoleon appreciates Hisuian Samurott’s effectiveness in getting up spikes with Ceaseless Edge. Empoleon is mostly useless in the Ground matchup, which is a major weakness as it is almost always paired with Toxapex or Tentacruel,[not mentioned as a teammate at all so you can just remove this] which isare also unhelpful into Ground, leaving that matchup as essentially a 4 vs 6. As such, Empoleon appreciates partners that can pick up its slack in the Ground matchup, such as Choice Specs Greninja, Suicune, Ogerpon-W, and Manaphy. Choice Specs Greninja is an excellent complement for the bulky Water teams Empoleon usually resides on, being able to stop sweeps by pokemon like the Ogerpon formes, Gholdengo and Pecharunt in their tracks, which bulky Water teams otherwise struggle to shut down.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Water
--------
Empoleon can also run Flip Turn to maintain momentum and keep the opponent in a vortex of switching and hazard chip, however Empoleon struggles to replace any of its moves with Flip Turn. Surf Empoleon can run 60 speed EVs to outspeed uninvested Corviknight, making it more dangerous for Corviknight to try to Defog. Empoleon can run Leftovers instead of Heavy-Duty Boots if it is paired with removal, enhancing its natural bulk. If you aren't running Knock Off or Flip Turn it is optimal to run a 0 Attack IV. [backspaced so its 1 paragraph]

[SET CREDITS]
Written by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/aaaaahowdogamework.716162/
Quality checked by:
Grammar checked by:

make the above changes and i will stamp

 

[aaaaahowdogamework]

Thank you for your time and your explanations, they have been very helpful. I have made the edits now. This isn't really necessary to the analysis anymore, but I do have two further questions if you don't mind, that might help me with future analyses:

• Was the issue with my opening line just that it was too prescriptive, rather than that I shouldn't be mentioning what team styles enmpoleon gets used on at all? (as the mention that empoleon is usually on bulky water teams at the end didn't get cut)
• You say that we shouldn't be thinking about specific scenarios, and give the example "if gren is infront of azu, we are not thinking about what if spikes is on the field, what if azu is at +6 now." but this seems like it would be unhelpful. If a new player find they keep losing to azumarill and sees an analysis mention that greninja helps with azumarill and adds greninja to their team, they're just going to keep losing to azumarill, because azumarill is almost always going to be +6 and have spikes up by the time gren gets a chance to attack it. So what is the reasoning for not thinking about specific scenarios in cases like this?

 

[boomp]

Was the issue with my opening line just that it was too prescriptive, rather than that I shouldn't be mentioning what team styles enmpoleon gets used on at all? (as the mention that empoleon is usually on bulky water teams at the end didn't get cut)
- this is only the case if the mon is truly exclusive towards 1 playstyle.


You say that we shouldn't be thinking about specific scenarios, and give the example "if gren is infront of azu, we are not thinking about what if spikes is on the field, what if azu is at +6 now." but this seems like it would be unhelpful. If a new player find they keep losing to azumarill and sees an analysis mention that greninja helps with azumarill and adds greninja to their team, they're just going to keep losing to azumarill, because azumarill is almost always going to be +6 and have spikes up by the time gren gets a chance to attack it. So what is the reasoning for not thinking about specific scenarios in cases like this?
- then that is a ingame problem and not a analysis problem itself. also for gren im saying we are not thinking about those specific interactions when writing these, we are just putting it in the mindset of if gren is infront of the mons its threatening its removing them for the written mon. which is why u see analysis be like thanks to it colorful coverage gren can deal with flying fighting and ground mons like torn-t, dragonite, iron valiant, and landorus. Not this is not true as they pivot into a b c, or it gets pp stalled by a swap, etc. Specific scenarios come into like: Illusion mindgames, future sight + teleport = forcing opponents to swap into resist / immunity, tricking mons on a swap. 2hkoing mons on a swap etc.

i saw u made the changes as well, QC 1/2 well done

 

[kiru]

[SET]
Empoleon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Name: Specially defensive (Water)
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon / Surf
- Roar / Knock Off
- Roost

[SET COMMENTS]
Empoleon’s unique defensive typing makes it valuable to Water teams, providing an answer to difficult threats like Kyurem, Flutter Mane, and Articuno. It also has an excellent toolkit for winning games with hazards, though the combination of Stealth Rock and Knock Off to remove Heavy-Duty Boots or Roar to rack up hazard damage on whatever gets dragged in, as well as Competitive threatening to turn it into a powerful offensive threat if the opponent Defogs. Flash Cannon makes Empoleon better at threatening the aforementioned Ice and Fairy types, whereas Surf allows it to punish Corviknight attempting to use Defog. Roar allows Empoleon to put a stop to special sweepers like Spectrier and Sinistcha; however Knock Off allows Empoleon to mitigate pokemon (caps) that depend on their item like Kyurem, Corviknight, and Hisuian Goodra. Empoleon doesn't struggle to set Stealth Rock in the crucial Flying matchup, like Water's other setters, because it can set them on Articuno.

As a special wall, Empoleon wants to be part of a defensive core with physical walls and special walls that fill the gaps in Empoleon’s coverage. ( After you say special and defensive walls you should say “like” and maybe mention swampert and ur examples you’ll talk about in order of like a over scope of the paragraph for flow to ease things up for teammates tbh. ) Empoleon pairs well with Toxapex, as Toxic Spikes make Empoleon’s Roar far more dangerous and Toxic puts a timer on the opponent’s pokemon, meaning pokemon like Primarina and Volcarona don’t have enough turns to boost past Empoleon – which is otherwise a major weakness of non-Roar sets. Empoleon can switch in on Psychic moves targeted into Toxapex, while Toxapex can switch in on Fighting moves targeted into Empoleon, as well as a range of powerful physical attackers like Choice Band Meowscarada and Ceruledge. (Maybe mention another realistic native fighting type here also) Empoleon pairs well with Alomomola, which can wish pass to keep Empoleon from being worn down by the barrage of Choice Specs-boosted special attacks that it gets thrown into from Flutter Mane, Kyurem, Dragapult and the like. (Incomplete sentence?) Specially defensive Alomomola also takes pressure off of Empoleon by switching into special attacks and regenerating off the damage, allowing Empoleon to conserve its health for the most threatening special attackers and switches well into the Choice Scarf Landorus Earth Powers that Empoleon is unable to help with. (Alo and gastro needs to go up) Empoleon appreciates Gastrodon setting spikes, forming a strong hazard stacking core, as well as protecting Empoleon from having its Heavy-Duty Boots removed with Sticky Hold, and switching into the Electric moves that Empoleon struggles with. Similarly, Empoleon appreciates Hisuian Samurott’s effectiveness in getting up spikes with Ceaseless Edge. Empoleon is mostly useless in the Ground matchup, which is a major weakness as it is almost always paired with Toxapex, which is also unhelpful into Ground. As such, Empoleon appreciates partners that can pick up its slack in the Ground matchup, such as Choice Specs Greninja, Suicune, Ogerpon-W, and Manaphy. Choice Specs Greninja is an excellent complement for the bulky Water teams Empoleon usually resides on, being able to stop sweeps by pokemon like the Ogerpon formes, Gholdengo and Pecharunt in their tracks.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Water
--------
Empoleon can also run Flip Turn to maintain momentum and keep the opponent in a vortex of switching and hazard chip, however Empoleon struggles to replace any of its moves with Flip Turn. Surf Empoleon can run 60 speed EVs to outspeed uninvested Corviknight, making it more dangerous for Corviknight to try to Defog. Empoleon can run Leftovers instead of Heavy-Duty Boots if it is paired with removal, enhancing its natural bulk. If you aren't running Knock Off or Flip Turn it is optimal to run a 0 Attack IV.

[SET CREDITS]
Written by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/aaaaahowdogamework.716162/
Quality checked by:
Grammar checked by:
[/QUOTE]


- need to capitalize Pokemon throughout the article and follow GP Standards
- unsure but I think like a passive line on just for flow for offensive teammates also would be nice for structure too and realistically I want you to personalize this a little more on a “little piece” of everything but just this is just like an overview. thinking of each archetype and just taking maybe one component of just define synergy or maybe just a notable sequences whether Empoleon is on rain , stall, bulky offense, balance, rainless. Also Empoleon in reality can just be really passive maybe at times maybe just also people have considered the flip turn here for example for this point. Like the metagame eventually adapts to a good bit of things and even though it’s mentioned in oo what teammate would still passively one dimensionally take advantage / profit if paired with it rather . Just also even if it’s not apart of a play style I think including something else would be nice just on where empo is in mono rn

Can you also explain the reasoning for the no attack iv in OO if running flip turn ?

I’ll check this after you implement aaaaahowdogamework

 

[aaaaahowdogamework]

• the aforementioned- it isn't just the ice and fairy types I listed at the start that flash cannon helps with. Empoleon 1v1ing hatterene is extremely important, but there's also weezing-galar, choice locked ival, ninetales-alola and frosmoth. Also flash cannon doesn't help much with articuno because it gets pp stalled. Perhaps I should use different examples at the start to make clear that this line isn't referring to the same group of pokemon?
• caps- done
• After you say special and defensive walls you should say “like”- done. I don't think swampert is a good partner for empoleon as they do too many of the same things, so I didn't list it.
• Maybe mention another realistic native fighting type here also- I was trying to give examples of pokemon that pex switches into for empoleon that aren't fighting type attackers (though I guess that's unclear because ceruledge runs CC often). I could just give examples of fighting type attackers or a mixture if you think that would work better.
• Incomplete sentence?- I think this is grammatical as is.
• Alo and gastro needs to go up- I'm afraid I don't know what this means- could you reword it?
• unsure but I think like a passive line on just for flow for offensive teammates also would be nice for structure too and realistically I want you to personalize this a little more on a “little piece” of everything but just this is just like an overview. thinking of each archetype and just taking maybe one component of just define synergy or maybe just a notable sequences whether Empoleon is on rain , stall, bulky offense, balance, rainless. Also Empoleon in reality can just be really passive maybe at times maybe just also people have considered the flip turn here for example for this point. Like the metagame eventually adapts to a good bit of things and even though it’s mentioned in oo what teammate would still passively one dimensionally take advantage / profit if paired with it rather .- I'm afraid I understood very little of this paragraph. Please could you reword it?
• Can you also explain the reasoning for the no attack iv in OO if running flip turn? In OO I said not to run a 0 atk IV if empoleon is running flip turn.

 

[Pengairxan]

I'm taking over for Kiru by request of Boomp. And I'm gonna cover a few things.

• the aforementioned- it isn't just the ice and fairy types I listed at the start that flash cannon helps with. Empoleon 1v1ing hatterene is extremely important, but there's also weezing-galar, choice locked ival, ninetales-alola and frosmoth. Also flash cannon doesn't help much with articuno because it gets pp stalled. Perhaps I should use different examples at the start to make clear that this line isn't referring to the same group of pokemon?

This is mostly so they don't get listed off again. While there is some implications there, its still cleaner than writing out a different list of new threats. Also Empo wins the 1v1 against Cuno due to Flash Cannon wearing out Roost PP just fast enough that Cuno can very much be forced on the clock (espessically if a SpD drop occurs along with Cuno being scared of Empo if it has a last move it hasn't revealed as it could be knock)

• Alo and gastro needs to go up- I'm afraid I don't know what this means- could you reword it?

They need to be listed earlier as teammates. (I.e mentioned before pex, granted I don't know what Kiru wants here, since Pex is also important Ignore this)

• unsure but I think like a passive line on just for flow for offensive teammates also would be nice for structure too and realistically I want you to personalize this a little more on a “little piece” of everything but just this is just like an overview. thinking of each archetype and just taking maybe one component of just define synergy or maybe just a notable sequences whether Empoleon is on rain , stall, bulky offense, balance, rainless. Also Empoleon in reality can just be really passive maybe at times maybe just also people have considered the flip turn here for example for this point. Like the metagame eventually adapts to a good bit of things and even though it’s mentioned in oo what teammate would still passively one dimensionally take advantage / profit if paired with it rather .- I'm afraid I understood very little of this paragraph. Please could you reword it?

First off, Kiru, I can't read, I'm a Pokemon player.
Secondly, this is just to mention good teammates Empoleon can pivot into for more offensive/balance structures and how said structures can appreciate Empo and Empo appreciates them back since right now this reads as Empoleon just on stall (which is most Empos right now I will admit, but we have seen balance squads with Empo in the past as its type combo is just super nice)

Balance based structures with Empo in question. Thanks ESword for building these squads (and being two of the games).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-810398
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-813208
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2499590114-g0tmw6nf5mmmurjrak2u9jsvdyow5lfpw?p2

So more of Empo providing utility for offense than just what it can do for defense (along with what this offense can do for Empo)

Also, if we're going to mention Dondozo as a teammate for Empoleon, either mention it later for what it does/don't mention it at all. Same goes for Suicune, Oger-W, and Manaphy, give a bit more of what they can supply or delete them (I would keep Manaphy and Dondozo though, but Suicune and Oger-W can probably go.)

I'll check once implemented.