Suspect SV ND Camove Chaos Suspect #1: U Can't Touch This

[Clas]

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After an internal vote following the latest survey, we have decided to suspect test Gigaton Hammer!

It's no secret Gigaton Hammer is an insanely powerful move. 160BP with the drawback of just not being clickable twice makes it an incredibly splashable move on offensive and defensive Pokemon; possibly too splashable. From Dhelmise's absolutely bonkers potential to just OHKO walls like Regirock and Great Tusk at +2 to Mabosstiff's ability to force progress versus every wall in game to mixed attackers like Zeraora, Mega Diancie, and Dragapult taking advantage of the move to great success, the move proves a significant threat in the builder with how flexible its users are. Current teams in the meta must be able to handle all of these threats to even be considered viable, and with the tier already having its fair share of prep-worthy threats Gigaton Hammer just adds to the strain present. Not just that, but moves like Tachyon Cutter, Anchor Shot, and Doom Desire are all very real options on teams to provide the ever-useful Steel type, although none are quite as threatening as Gigaton Hammer.

That being said, Gigaton Hammer does have very real anti-ban arguments. For one, the aforementioned Steel typing is one that is defensively hard to fit onto teams in comparison to the likes of Ground- and Water-types, further pushed by the general lack of instantly threatening Steel-type moves. This is extremely important, as the Steel typing is what keeps Mortal Spin at bay alongside its generally incredibly useful resistances provided, and weaker defensive Pokemon like Coalossal and Regirock are generally reliant on Gigaton Hammer to keep pressure up. Not just that, but the Steel typing is one that is very lacklustre offensively, being resisted by common types like Water, Electric, and, obviously, Steel, with only Fairy-types being threatened for relevant super-effective damage defensively in the meta. Other Pokemon like Haxorus, Roaring Moon, Ogerpon-Wellspring, and Mega Gardevoir also have nearly matched offensive power with moves like Headlong Rush, Pyro Ball, Bolt Strike, Secret Sword, and Blood Moon, although none of those are mixed attackers.

Overall, it's up to you, the playerbase, to decide if Gigaton Hammer should go. Is it too centralising or too strong? Or is it just a very strong move that helps keep the tier balanced and the many threats in check?

The instructions to participate in this suspect are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in SV NatDex Camove Chaos before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W-L does not count for this—the account you use must never have played NatDex Camove Chaos before the test, full stop.)
  • You can use /rank to check if your alt is allowed to get requirements. Whenever in doubt, type /rank and it will tell confirm if you are eligible or not
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact dhelmise, Giagantic, April, or any other OM/OMM Staff member.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM dhelmise!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2860 (with a B Value of 3). The deadline for getting requirements will be <t:1769403540:f>.

 

[Clas]

Speaking as my own person, not for council

Gigaton Hammer is really, really stupid. The amount of stress it puts on the builder is genuinely insane. From Dhelmise's Steel/Normal and Steel/Grass shenanigans requiring two different checks (and Perrserker just directly replaces it for 5-10% less damage, so a Dhelmise ban accomplishes little) to Mabosstiff being near-impossible to switch into with a Choice Band to Zeraora and Mega Diancie being nigh-unwallable mixed attackers with incredible speed to literally whatever else starts to run the move, the burden is there. Even walls like Rhyperior/Rhydon, Regirock, and even Hydrapple are running the move to dish out as much damage as possible without any investment or cost because there just isn't a point to not running the move on them if the opportunity arises. The fact that over 50% of survey voters voted for a Gigaton Hammer ban outright should speak volumes about just how utterly stupid this move is, and so far I've only talked about the move as a STAB option, not even as a coverage option, but I don't think that's as big a deal since Steel only helps for certain STAB combos like Fire/Fighting.

I first want to address the main anti-ban argument present currently in that the move provides a very rare Steel typing that is hard to fit on teams. One, not true; Tachyon Cutter, Anchor Shot, Doom Desire, Metal Burst, and King's Shield are all very solid options on a wide range of Pokemon depending on the needs of the team. Second, I don't personally believe this should be a factor in keeping such a restrictive move allowed in the tier. It is true that the Steel typing will be harder to fit onto teams without Gigaton Hammer around, but the degree it's being suggested at is wildly inaccurate and overwhelmingly bloated - I'd expect maybe a 5-10% decrease as the worst case scenario. And as a final, significantly less serious reason:

big gigaton admits the truth

Now, back to Gigaton Hammer itself. Yes, Steel is very easily resisted, but said resists are also overwhelmingly exploitable. Most Gigaton users will go down one of three paths:

• Pair with a type that lacks overlapping resists like Ghost or Fighting
• Cover for these resists to make Gigaton resists more fearful, such as with Ground- or Water-type moves
• Forgo pairing a secondary STAB entirely to instead focus on the overall typing, such as with Flying, Grass, or Normal

Since this doesn't actually mean much without examples, it's hard to understand what I mean. For the first category, think Mega Diancie, Deoxys-Speed, or Mabosstiff. All three users pair Gigaton Hammer with hard-to-resist STABs like Moongeist Beam and Close Combat to reduce what can actually handle the Pokemon. For the second group, think Excadrill, Mega Diancie (again), or Dragapult. Excadrill uses Headlong Rush and non-STAB Pyro Ball or Bolt Strike to help limit what can handle it, Mega Diancie can use Steam Eruption and either Bolt Strike or Freeze-Dry to be near-impossible to answer, and Dragapult can do either while being incredibly fast to boot. The third group contains Pokemon like Dhelmise, Zeraora, Rhyperior, and Coalossal. Dhelmise uses either Grass or Normal to provide a defensive boost while overwhelming teams with its genuinely ridiculous ability to further boost Gigaton's damage, Zeraora uses the Steel typing provided by Gigaton Hammer to more easily break with Oblivion Wing + Nasty Plot, using Precipice Blades as coverage to help minimize resistances and the set's otherwise major weakness to RegenVest Gigaton resists, and both Coalossal and Rhyperior use their immunity abilities alongside Gigaton Hammer's provided Steel type to switch into the tier and threaten devastating damage back, even off of the former's pitiful 80 Attack stat.

The issue here is "how do you deal with all of these while covering for staples like Scizor, Mega Gardevoir, Water/Flying Zeraora, Mega Latias, Tapu Lele, Mega Pidgeot, and others?" and the answer is you don't. Quite simply, Gigaton Hammer existing in the tier makes this near-enough impossible unless you either run stall (which still will probably lose to Mabosstiff and Dhelmise unless multiple Protect moves and a quad steel resist are used respectively and those teams don't really use Gigaton Hammer anyway). If the users of the move were viably limited to just a handful of Pokemon and/or STAB pairs then the move would probably be significantly more balanced, but that is not the world we live in unfortunately.

If it's not clear yet, I will be voting ban. This move causes so much more trouble than it helps relieve and should have been banned ages ago. I'll be building teams centered around multiple Gigaton users and using them during my run, so will be able to supply those teams and potentially example replays to go along with them afterwards as well if I have the time.

 

[The Hisui Region]

Speaking as my own person, not for council

Gigaton Hammer is really, really stupid. The amount of stress it puts on the builder is genuinely insane. From Dhelmise's Steel/Normal and Steel/Grass shenanigans requiring two different checks (and Perrserker just directly replaces it for 5-10% less damage, so a Dhelmise ban accomplishes little) to Mabosstiff being near-impossible to switch into with a Choice Band to Zeraora and Mega Diancie being nigh-unwallable mixed attackers with incredible speed to literally whatever else starts to run the move, the burden is there. Even walls like Rhyperior/Rhydon, Regirock, and even Hydrapple are running the move to dish out as much damage as possible without any investment or cost because there just isn't a point to not running the move on them if the opportunity arises. The fact that over 50% of survey voters voted for a Gigaton Hammer ban outright should speak volumes about just how utterly stupid this move is, and so far I've only talked about the move as a STAB option, not even as a coverage option, but I don't think that's as big a deal since Steel only helps for certain STAB combos like Fire/Fighting.

I first want to address the main anti-ban argument present currently in that the move provides a very rare Steel typing that is hard to fit on teams. One, not true; Tachyon Cutter, Anchor Shot, Doom Desire, Metal Burst, and King's Shield are all very solid options on a wide range of Pokemon depending on the needs of the team. Second, I don't personally believe this should be a factor in keeping such a restrictive move allowed in the tier. It is true that the Steel typing will be harder to fit onto teams without Gigaton Hammer around, but the degree it's being suggested at is wildly inaccurate and overwhelmingly bloated - I'd expect maybe a 5-10% decrease as the worst case scenario. And as a final, significantly less serious reason:

big gigaton admits the truth

View attachment 800874

Now, back to Gigaton Hammer itself. Yes, Steel is very easily resisted, but said resists are also overwhelmingly exploitable. Most Gigaton users will go down one of three paths:

• Pair with a type that lacks overlapping resists like Ghost or Fighting
• Cover for these resists to make Gigaton resists more fearful, such as with Ground- or Water-type moves
• Forgo pairing a secondary STAB entirely to instead focus on the overall typing, such as with Flying, Grass, or Normal

Since this doesn't actually mean much without examples, it's hard to understand what I mean. For the first category, think Mega Diancie, Deoxys-Speed, or Mabosstiff. All three users pair Gigaton Hammer with hard-to-resist STABs like Moongeist Beam and Close Combat to reduce what can actually handle the Pokemon. For the second group, think Excadrill, Mega Diancie (again), or Dragapult. Excadrill uses Headlong Rush and non-STAB Pyro Ball or Bolt Strike to help limit what can handle it, Mega Diancie can use Steam Eruption and either Bolt Strike or Freeze-Dry to be near-impossible to answer, and Dragapult can do either while being incredibly fast to boot. The third group contains Pokemon like Dhelmise, Zeraora, Rhyperior, and Coalossal. Dhelmise uses either Grass or Normal to provide a defensive boost while overwhelming teams with its genuinely ridiculous ability to further boost Gigaton's damage, Zeraora uses the Steel typing provided by Gigaton Hammer to more easily break with Oblivion Wing + Nasty Plot, using Precipice Blades as coverage to help minimize resistances and the set's otherwise major weakness to RegenVest Gigaton resists, and both Coalossal and Rhyperior use their immunity abilities alongside Gigaton Hammer's provided Steel type to switch into the tier and threaten devastating damage back, even off of the former's pitiful 80 Attack stat.

The issue here is "how do you deal with all of these while covering for staples like Scizor, Mega Gardevoir, Water/Flying Zeraora, Mega Latias, Tapu Lele, Mega Pidgeot, and others?" and the answer is you don't. Quite simply, Gigaton Hammer existing in the tier makes this near-enough impossible unless you either run stall (which still will probably lose to Mabosstiff and Dhelmise unless multiple Protect moves and a quad steel resist are used respectively and those teams don't really use Gigaton Hammer anyway). If the users of the move were viably limited to just a handful of Pokemon and/or STAB pairs then the move would probably be significantly more balanced, but that is not the world we live in unfortunately.

If it's not clear yet, I will be voting ban. This move causes so much more trouble than it helps relieve and should have been banned ages ago. I'll be building teams centered around multiple Gigaton users and using them during my run, so will be able to supply those teams and potentially example replays to go along with them afterwards as well if I have the time.

dhelmise and mabosstiff are the only actually broken mons out of everything you listed
you cant expect to cover every gigaton resist with gigaton + stab #2 and any attempt to do so is just cope and a bad matchup fish (exca diancie deos pult)
same issue with stuff like zera, it has like 6 coverage moves it wants to run and if it finds success with one of those by virtue of a lucky matchup that's not even gigaton's fault it's just the tier rewarding fish random coverage sets
excadrill with gigaton + strong neutral z move is pretty hard to stop but that's not even because of gigaton
and the other guys you listed really arent even that good
tachyon, anchor shot, kings shield, doom desire and metal burst are not viable alternatives at all
- anchor shot is alright at punishing some setup mons but it doesn't do anything vs a lot of the tier because almost everything defensive runs pivoting
- doom desire is okay but its usually never getting clicked and never does much when clicked and doesn't even hit that hard off of most guys that want to be steel
- tachyon cutter is complete garbage and does absolutely nothing to most of the tier and should very rarely get clicked in games vs almost all good teams; mid bp, no secondary effect, awful offensive type, only able to run it on special mons anyway
- kings shield and metal burst are garbage conditional moves which can often hurt you when clicking them, only kings shield is sometimes used on blissey for the rare pursuit matchup
god forbid there exist some consistent mons like rhyperior and coalossal that aren't completely passive
you listed steel type gliscor as a viable option so surely you are not to be trusted

GRATIS GIGATON

 

[jl36808]

Got reqs with this team: https://pokepast.es/86f29008b8542f49 (yes this is very poorly built HO)

Im gonna go with no-ban. Really hating the bulky teams even with gigaton legal, and I think they will be even more annoying without it.

Anyway I really dislike how splashable spectral is. It feels like I could make a team composed solely out of walls with spectral thief and do well with it. Sap also kinda factors into this, since it effectively means that you need to ohko the sapper as a phys mon, which is usually impossible without setup. But I also think that if they get banned then setup is just going to dominate so idk.

 

[Ellie<3]

reqs w a edited ver of the lati semistall sample.

imo hammer isn’t broken, and it’s a good tool for HO and some more defensive mons such as coalossal, making it have some way to do a real damage output to more offensive threats. other steel moves aren’t that good aswell, bblade and cutter is a plain 100 bp move. Doom desire is a good move but it’s just bad on HOs. Hammer can also have some funny combs with it such as copycat which kinda adds versatility to the tier? I also don’t see it being really broken as there are dozens of steel resists out there and many good physical defensive users. Hence, I will vote DNB.

 

[DragonPhoenix333]

i wanted to use ho for suspect for funny so i used some stupid ass triple booster speed team until i started losing because the team was ass (which tilted me hella so i had to play a lot more games) so then i just used a slightly modified version of jl's team where bulu and scizor have some extra speed investment. obv since ho is inherently mu fishy it just made me lose lots of games i shouldnt have (shoutout? shoutin? to the person who ran 2x gravity + scarf precipice blades meow in the most obvious cteam of all time).

i feel like deleting gigaton might make fairies a little overbearing, makes lots of defensive guys too passive, but also kills a lot of ho bc theres no move that just acts as a big damage button without z or being supereffective or being explosion. prolly dnb we'll see

 

[Clas]

i WAS going to use my suspect run to test gigaton as much as possible, except literally every team was ho so never mind ig. 18-1, shouldve been 17-0 but i threw an easy endgame because i tried to finish the game faster and then got ladder momented. will edit in replays + teams when i get them, gonna use roomtour games instead because theyre higher quality or just play on my main @ 1600 elo and pray the teams work from the get go even though im putting 0 effort into them. still firmly ban, this move is genuinely so stupid and playing using only teams w/ at least 1 gigaton user has made me further believe this.

some of the calcs ive seen while using gigaton are hilarious though wdym i can just do 73% to steel-resistant cress and ko next turn w/ struggle???