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Proposal Remove the Pomeg Glitch from Official Formats

Hydrametr0nice

Simulator Developer
is a Programmeris a Battle Simulator Moderator
A bug report was submitted explaining that a shiny Celebi could be obtained in Gen 3 through the Pomeg Glitch and asking whether we could implement this. I asked for input from dot Comfey, the current main maintainer of the Team Validator, and this was her response:
There is precedent for simulating moves obtained via the Pomeg glitch for LC, but other legality-related glitches such as the Mimic glitch and Level 80 Arceus are deemed illegal (and in the case of the Mimic glitch, it is simulated but not in use in any format). Besides allowing shiny Celebi, the Pomeg glitch also allows Pokemon normally obtained at higher levels such as Tyranitar to be obtained at level 5 (these are not simulated).

Barring Pomeg glitched moves, most legality-related glitches are not considered legal, so I don't think shiny Celebi would be considered legal either. This isn't my own opinion, but rather what seems to be precedent from what I read in PR.
For the sake of consistency, and to avoid future ad hoc requests related to glitches, I propose removing the Pomeg Glitch implementation from our Official Formats.

As with the Mimic Glitch, we could add a Pomeg Glitch mod that allows the current implementation (and any future additions enabled by the Pomeg Glitch) for custom formats, while removing it from Official Formats.

Edit: Even if you wish to keep it in the official formats, it should be implemented as a mod that appears in the rules list when starting a Little Cup battle.
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The current implementation of the Pomeg Glitch (which apparently doesn't implement all the other consequences of the glitch) allows Pokémon to obtain level-up moves as eggs. This is already partially possible, since eggs can inherit level-up moves if both parents know them.

The two main consequences would affect genderless Pokémon, which can only breed with Ditto, and Egg Events with special moves (as these special moves could conflict with level-up moves that are not attainable at that Pokémon's level). It is also important to note that this would only affect Pokémon bred in Generation 3 (Pokémon Showdown is able to track the source generation of a Pokémon).

In practice, this would only impact Little Cup. Gen 3 bred Genderless Pokémon and Pokémon from Gen 3 Egg Events would lose some move combinations and move+ability combinations in future gens.

As I mentioned in the edit to my post, even if the LC communities are opposed to this proposal, it should at least be added as a custom rule/mod, similarly to the Gen 3 Switch Priority Clause Mod: "Switch Priority Clause Mod: Faster Pokémon switch first".

You can see a list of now-legal moves and combinations that would become illegal:
 
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So competitively speaking, that looks like Staryu, Zigzagoon, and Porygon getting fucked in the relevant gens, plus maybe Lickitung theoretically noticing?
 
Local pokemon movepool legality freak here reporting in. Wanted to pop in here as an old Wi-Fi mod who's moderated legality on the forums and was also just around in the Little Cup Forums community for some of the talk about Pomeg Glitch's original initial use cases for LC.

(Disclaimer: I have no horse in the race for what rule sets are influenced by a potential change. I think the communities should roll with makes them the happiest)

I do not feel changing the legality of the Pomeg Glitch is nessisary. However, I believe that verbiage should be added to what exactly the Pomeg Glitch entails for competitive Pokémon's usage and what it does not. The glitch has taken on another life since its initial discovery as a completely game-breaking tool for arbitrary code execution-adjacent purposes, far beyond its modest original intended competitive use. If it is being preserved, we should specify these limitations.

As already stated, the glitch in its original form was a way to obtain Pokemon and moves at lower levels than what is normally allowed. This is really important for genderless and male only Pokemon (and a few irrelevant moves on female only too!) from Gen 3, as well as anything that comes from an event. This is most important for some Pokémon like Porygon and Extremespeed Zigzagoon that otherwise don't learn their later evolution attacks in Gens 3-6. This is the glitch in the state it's been used for competitive Pokémon's sake and for Pokemon Showdown's movepool legality checks (at least the last time I looked at the code... admittedly back in 2016).

The opening of this video is a good demonstration of the glitch as it was traditionally understood, allowing a Pokemon in an egg to battle and tediously level up so that it can gain moves / evolutions before properly hatching:


The scale of what the video in the bug report is doing involves far more complex set up under a sub glitch, apparently sometimes referred to as "glitzerpopping", involving using this initial pokemon to generate a glitched empty pokedex entry ? pokemon, and then do wild stuff with index numbers to lead to arbitrary code execution.

This is the video the Shiny Celebi report video is using as a reference for the set up to show how wildly different it is from what the glitch has been used for movepool legality's sake:


What is being displayed in this shiny celebi video might have the Pomeg glitch as its entry point, but its using it as a door to far more absurd shenanigans that we traditionally do not allow. This is more akin to the ridiculous coin case shenanigans you can get up to generating Pokemon in GSC or BDSP's menu storage Pokemon overwriting. Allowing this domain of the Pomeg Glitch effectively allows any arbitrary combination of Pokemon or moveset on any Pokemon with the right set up.

To prevent this larger implementation, but preserve the traditional gameplay for LC, I would like to propose that for Smogon's implementation of the Pomeg Glitch, if kept, we limit it to something like:

Pomeg Glitch Clause: The Pomeg Glitch is allowed for the sake of allowing an otherwise legal Pokemon to gain moves and evolutions it would otherwise not have access to at an earlier level. The wider implications of the Pomeg Glitch for arbitrary code execution are banned.

I think this solution would keep Gen 3-6 little cup players happy with their rule set preserved while not opening pandora's box to its full blown absurdity.

On the whole, the Pomeg glitch being allowed is an anomaly, absolutely. I can't recall a single other instance of us explicitly allowing a glitch like this (unless it's something painful to implement like perfect IVs in RBY). It is a weird artifact of its time that we're still playing with it, but I guess we also play with other weird features the community likes like Rotom-A in DPP.
 
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I also want to make it clear that I have no personal intention of changing the existing metagames. However, since the Pomeg Glitch is only partially implemented, I think TheMantyke's proposal of formally defining what is allowed is important, so that we don't need to open a policy thread or start endless discussions between developers and players every time a glitch-related request is made.
 
For the sake of consistency, and to avoid future ad hoc requests related to glitches, I propose removing the Pomeg Glitch implementation from our Official Formats.
What are we doing here. We do not need to be at the whims of the Policy Review "for the sake of consistency". Uprooting gen 3-6 of LC is a horrible place to even start. Messing with this benefits absolutely no one and just satisfies some sense of conformity for conformity's sake.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding the post, but I do not like being told by a PR post that all of a sudden that gens 3,4,5, and 6 of lc should be listed as a mod, for the sake of consistency. I was not there when these decisions made 17 years ago, and I do not understand the intricacies of legality like TheMantyke does, but I do play these metagames and this post is concerning.

From Merritt in the LC Discord,
if it's purely for the purposes of transparency in the battle rules, then gens 1-3 should have a disclaimer about allowing illegal DV/IV/nature combinations

for what that's worth

rby's current "way around it" is to either allow extremely limited tradebacks or access to the mew glitch (which directly enables game breaking glitch pokemon afaik)

adv just flat out allows em, with no way to obtain certain spreads outside extremely game breaking glitches (manual edits to a pokemon's data, flat out generation of a pokemon, or hatching impossible pokemon)

Smogon has a long history of grey areas with these things, and I will not pretend to be the expert on any of them. But I think we need to ask ourselves, what is the purpose of these rules, are they to serve the metagames they are played in or are they for the sake of having rules. I think this opens a mess that is not helpful for anyone, if we need to define Pomeg Glitch's bounds with Glitzer Popping where other issues come up, then okay, but please do not mess with something that is not broken.
 
I also want to make it clear that I have no personal intention of changing the existing metagames. However, since the Pomeg Glitch is only partially implemented, I think TheMantyke's proposal of formally defining what is allowed is important, so that we don't need to open a policy thread or start endless discussions between developers and players every time a glitch-related request is made.
I’m going to assume you didn't read this, but I'll bite.

but I do not like being told by a PR post that all of a sudden that gens 3,4,5, and 6 of lc should be listed as a mod
Do you realize that this would simply mean showing a message at the beginning of a battle saying: "Pomeg Glitch Mod: Gen 3 Pokémon at level 5+ can have any of their level-up moves", right?

gens 3,4,5, and 6 of lc should be listed as a mod
I don't even know what you mean by this. Do you realize that all of those gens already have numerous mods?

I think this opens a mess that is not helpful for anyone, if we need to define Pomeg Glitch's bounds with Glitzer Popping where other issues come up, then okay, but please do not mess with something that is not broken.
How does adding a message break anything? Have you even noticed that Gen 3 formats have the Switch Priority Clause Mod? Does it bother you? If so, why? Cancel Mod, HP Percentage Mod and Endless Battle Clause all have rule messages.

if it's purely for the purposes of transparency in the battle rules, then gens 1-3 should have a disclaimer about allowing illegal DV/IV/nature combinations
First, those inaccuracies are only present in Gens 3 and 4 for non-egg encounters, and one reason they are not fully implemented (and the main difference compared to the Pomeg Glitch) is technical limitations. If for the sake of completeness you want to add a rule about illegal PID combinations for Gens 3 and 4, I'm all for it.

Second, we already enforce all Gen 1 and 2 DV combinations. Gender, shininess, Unown forms and the HP DV are all checked against the other DVs.

Smogon has a long history of grey areas with these things
One of those grey areas was the Switch Priority in Gen 3 and what did they do? They added a rule message. You can see the discussion here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-switch-priority.3622189/ I would like to know which other ‘grey areas’ you are referring to, besides the PID combinations that are not feasible to implement. All other modifications have rule messages.
 
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LC oldgen enthusiast here.

Adding this as a mod seems fine. I think it's clearly obvious to everyone in this thread that Gen 3-6 LC should include this mod.

It is a super weird piece of history that LC is this way. When it was initially discovered, our reaction (as hopefully seen in the linked thread above... slightly cringing at 2009 me) was "this is cool, we should add this as it makes the metagame more fun" - definitely crazy by 2026 standards. I think there are sufficient historical reasons to keep it to preserve the spirit of these old metagames.
 
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