I would be very happy if something is done about Kyurem honestly, but happens what happens i will continue to be addicted to this tier lol
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ new survey -- see post 21,148 ]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I honestly feel like no mons warrant a ban rn. Kyurem and Woger are obviously very threatening but it's not too hard to out-offense them.
Woger is very easy to revenge kill and relatively predictable in its sets. While there's basically no specific counters to it outside of something super niche like tera grass pech / one of the birds, there's a plethora of checks who woger would need to tera to beat 1v1 in the first place
Kyurem is alot harder to wall and has some checks like ttar or crown but they're very easy to wear down, or somewhat harder to fit into a team. That being said, as long as your team doesn't give Kyurem too much free entry points you should be fine against it. It's not too hard to do and it doesn't really ohko alot back besides mons weak to freeze dry
Woger is very easy to revenge kill and relatively predictable in its sets. While there's basically no specific counters to it outside of something super niche like tera grass pech / one of the birds, there's a plethora of checks who woger would need to tera to beat 1v1 in the first place
Kyurem is alot harder to wall and has some checks like ttar or crown but they're very easy to wear down, or somewhat harder to fit into a team. That being said, as long as your team doesn't give Kyurem too much free entry points you should be fine against it. It's not too hard to do and it doesn't really ohko alot back besides mons weak to freeze dry
Gonna get laugh reacted for this, but at this stage I think I would like Mola gone. Both AV and the standard wishtect shit have become cancerous to deal with, especially since Wellspring isn't even a great long-term check (hazards just outlast it, Mola has Tickle to soften Wellspring's blow against an incoming Pecharunt or Grass-type like Ogerpon, and it gets chipped + Para'd by Body Slam eventually). U can't even pretend that this mon is carrying balanced or stall when this mon enables nearly every single trade demon balance breaker known to man between Ursaluna, Hoopa-U, probably 5 others I am missing right now - either via free pivots with AV or full heals with WishTect. It does some cool shit tbf - being a blanket special check is great, slow pivoting into breakers is cool, and Wishtect can enable a lot of cool lower tier mons, but it also makes many of the strongest mons in the tier more difficult to deal with - either via the free pivots or by making them unbreakable. Planning on mentioning it in the survey.
On the flipside, I think offense could be nerfed asw with Light Clay ban (think screens are a bit too MU fishy for my liking) and I suppose an Ogerpon-W suspect asw (though I personally think its on the finer side, many other players don't like its presence and the positives it does bring would be lessoned if mola suspect is also considered). Tera Blast ban would be ideal but not likely. I'm thinking Deo-S could perhaps be looked at over Light Clay since it is the best screens setter from what I've seen + has a few very annoying sets for Fat due to its speed tier and versatility, but it is also a bit fishy itself and I think screens are the bigger issue anyways. w/ other mons like Dragapult also being solid setters.
That said at this stage I don't expect anything to be looked at. Maybe Kyurem #3 if players want it. Tera Blast ship has sailed, Screens probably won't be looked at, and I feel most of the suspect targets are kinda edging the line a lot more than prior suspects.
On the flipside, I think offense could be nerfed asw with Light Clay ban (think screens are a bit too MU fishy for my liking) and I suppose an Ogerpon-W suspect asw (though I personally think its on the finer side, many other players don't like its presence and the positives it does bring would be lessoned if mola suspect is also considered). Tera Blast ban would be ideal but not likely. I'm thinking Deo-S could perhaps be looked at over Light Clay since it is the best screens setter from what I've seen + has a few very annoying sets for Fat due to its speed tier and versatility, but it is also a bit fishy itself and I think screens are the bigger issue anyways. w/ other mons like Dragapult also being solid setters.
That said at this stage I don't expect anything to be looked at. Maybe Kyurem #3 if players want it. Tera Blast ship has sailed, Screens probably won't be looked at, and I feel most of the suspect targets are kinda edging the line a lot more than prior suspects.
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may I ask, what is the point of a survey in the first place if tournaments will just serve as an excuse to not do anything?
Tbh this is right on the money, mola is definitely an unhealthy mon that tends to exacerbate how difficult breakers are to deal with in this tier by giving them endless free switchins (including wellspring itself, funnily enough).
This is the only thing outside of select mons I'd appreciate. Having played a lot more recently, I find the sheer numbers of screens usage to be more suffocating as a trend than not. Sure defog can help, but these teams are often very easy to pilot unless you decide to yoink them with Cinderace lmao
I'm going to delve into the unrealistic and unexpected, regardless of the reacts, it's good to see different opinions like Eeveeto and Magcargo.
I agree about Gholdengo, my biggest regret is that we didn't have an experience without Gholdengo in SV. The hazard war is very unbalanced in SV, you put it with near-zero risk and you need to set up real complexes for removal/prevention with double Defog cores, Ace + Elephant Spinner, Hatterene, etc.
I also agree about Gliscor. I can't count how many times Gliscor was unable to return to the game due to Stealth Rock -12.5% health, but then Protect, Protect and ended the game at full health. In addition to providing progress with Knock Off, Toxic and Spikes while also ignoring the same 3.
Alomomola provides long-term support for things that shouldn't exist in the long term like Ursaluna, without a cost as high as Healing Wish (although Alomomola still has access).
I agree about Light Clay, but here's my take:
. Remember how many of us wondered in the last survey why the hell Walking Wake is listed here? And it's not just WW, we have a whole list of solid abusers, and 8 (7) turns of Sun support is way too oppressive. WW and friends can overwhelm several other playstyles without much thought, or without any thought at all.
So the line of thinking is similar to Light Clay, nerfing something where nothing individually seems that urgent, but combined it becomes something almost non-interactive and mu fish.
I still wanted to see some action about Ceruledge, Kyurem, Kingambit, Waterpon and Dragonite (not necessarily a ban), but we don't have a schedule for all of that until generation 10.
And if anyone has Ting Lu stuck in their throat wanting to write about it, feel free, I understand the feeling.
I just hope I stay in the top 250 of the ladder (or the list wasn't made before I peak in last night) to vote survey as qualified, since my enjoyment isn't very good to keep playing anymore.
I agree about Gholdengo, my biggest regret is that we didn't have an experience without Gholdengo in SV. The hazard war is very unbalanced in SV, you put it with near-zero risk and you need to set up real complexes for removal/prevention with double Defog cores, Ace + Elephant Spinner, Hatterene, etc.
I also agree about Gliscor. I can't count how many times Gliscor was unable to return to the game due to Stealth Rock -12.5% health, but then Protect, Protect and ended the game at full health. In addition to providing progress with Knock Off, Toxic and Spikes while also ignoring the same 3.
Alomomola provides long-term support for things that shouldn't exist in the long term like Ursaluna, without a cost as high as Healing Wish (although Alomomola still has access).
I agree about Light Clay, but here's my take:
. Remember how many of us wondered in the last survey why the hell Walking Wake is listed here? And it's not just WW, we have a whole list of solid abusers, and 8 (7) turns of Sun support is way too oppressive. WW and friends can overwhelm several other playstyles without much thought, or without any thought at all.So the line of thinking is similar to Light Clay, nerfing something where nothing individually seems that urgent, but combined it becomes something almost non-interactive and mu fish.
I still wanted to see some action about Ceruledge, Kyurem, Kingambit, Waterpon and Dragonite (not necessarily a ban), but we don't have a schedule for all of that until generation 10.
And if anyone has Ting Lu stuck in their throat wanting to write about it, feel free, I understand the feeling.
I just hope I stay in the top 250 of the ladder (or the list wasn't made before I peak in last night) to vote survey as qualified, since my enjoyment isn't very good to keep playing anymore.
I super agree with this, these days I never make a team that's not double hazard control or bootspam. I will say that those are pretty effective tools against these kind of teamstyles for the most part
I also agree w/ this take here, theres so much brainless stuff (like screens/weather) that just encourages more matchup-fish teamstyles.I agree about Light Clay, but here's my take:
So the line of thinking is similar to Light Clay, nerfing something where nothing individually seems that urgent, but combined it becomes something almost non-interactive and mu fish.
I still wanted to see some action about Ceruledge, Kyurem, Kingambit, Waterpon and Dragonite (not necessarily a ban), but we don't have a schedule for all of that until generation 10.
It might be a hot take to say that Ceruledge is the one I want gone the most. This mon is genuinely so oppressive to fight, and sometimes straight up discourages you from hitting it because of weak armor. Its existence in the match alone can pressure you to make moves you probably wouldn't before
Lu's obviously good, but it doesn't feel banworthy. It holds the tier together in a lot of ways (It literally checks like half of it) and I think removing it would definitely be more of a negative than a positive
We are discussing the potential inclusion of Light Clay on the survey, but I doubt Heat Rock or Walking Wake make it on.
For the ppl wanting to suspect Light Clay, consider the alternative of suspecting Deo. Light Clay was never a talking point for bans up until ppl realized Deoxys was a way better screens setter with its unmatched speed and endless utility options that Alolatales couldn’t even dream of.
With that said I wouldn’t suspect screens. Screens has seen shockingly low usage in SPL thus far (only two uses with a 50/50 winrate, and tho we cannot make metagame judgements off of 2 weeks worth of SPL, it does show how players are prepping for Screens.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-902733
Screens like any HO structure is susceptible to anti-offense options like Zapdos, Dtail Dnite, Ting-Lu, etc. Heileone’s 2024 ahh team is also packing options like Scarf Ghold, T-Wave Clef, and Encore Samu which can disrupt Kate’s legion of setup sweepers. Even just having one of these would be enough for the matchup.
The screens/Ceruledge scare was the result of a playstyle/mon exploiting common trends at the time. Now we’ll expect to see another meta shift during the SPL era of 2026 SV OU in response to it. Ceruledge was a Pokemon that wasn’t accounted for, and it thus wrecked unprepared team structures. It was the same with Darkrai back in early 2024 and with SD Gliscor before G-Weez became a popular Balance staple.
I’d also like to say that hazard stack is more tame nowadays. It is still an incredibly popular piece of the SV OU meta, but the popularity of Treads and Hatt from last year continues to prosper in the Big 26 meta.
Mola is a cheap fuck but I don’t think its textbook broken. Molaluna-esche cores haven’t been relevant for like a year so idk where the complaints are coming from. I think AV Mola is a great glue that has helped free up teambuilding by blanket checking half the specially oriented threats and letting you run offensive Dark types like speedy Kingambit, Specs Rai, etc. Its still vulnerable to hazards and Knock which most teams running special spam should be running anyways. AV Mola is also worse at tanking Tusk Headlong and other strong physical hits. This is also without mentioning its worst matchups, Wellspring, Specs Kyurem, and G-Weez.
With that said I wouldn’t suspect screens. Screens has seen shockingly low usage in SPL thus far (only two uses with a 50/50 winrate, and tho we cannot make metagame judgements off of 2 weeks worth of SPL, it does show how players are prepping for Screens.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-902733
Screens like any HO structure is susceptible to anti-offense options like Zapdos, Dtail Dnite, Ting-Lu, etc. Heileone’s 2024 ahh team is also packing options like Scarf Ghold, T-Wave Clef, and Encore Samu which can disrupt Kate’s legion of setup sweepers. Even just having one of these would be enough for the matchup.
The screens/Ceruledge scare was the result of a playstyle/mon exploiting common trends at the time. Now we’ll expect to see another meta shift during the SPL era of 2026 SV OU in response to it. Ceruledge was a Pokemon that wasn’t accounted for, and it thus wrecked unprepared team structures. It was the same with Darkrai back in early 2024 and with SD Gliscor before G-Weez became a popular Balance staple.
I’d also like to say that hazard stack is more tame nowadays. It is still an incredibly popular piece of the SV OU meta, but the popularity of Treads and Hatt from last year continues to prosper in the Big 26 meta.
Mola is a cheap fuck but I don’t think its textbook broken. Molaluna-esche cores haven’t been relevant for like a year so idk where the complaints are coming from. I think AV Mola is a great glue that has helped free up teambuilding by blanket checking half the specially oriented threats and letting you run offensive Dark types like speedy Kingambit, Specs Rai, etc. Its still vulnerable to hazards and Knock which most teams running special spam should be running anyways. AV Mola is also worse at tanking Tusk Headlong and other strong physical hits. This is also without mentioning its worst matchups, Wellspring, Specs Kyurem, and G-Weez.
I hope Tera Blast is not on the upcoming survey. If there's anything that will deep-six the chances of SV OU getting another suspect before the generation ends, it's Tera Blast since it would markedly affect the scores of both Dragonite and Kyurem by lowering the scores for those two mons. The reason Dragonite scored as high as it did on the previous survey in October was 'cause Tera Blast was left off the survey.
I also hope that if Ceruledge is on the survey Light Clay is left off since Ceruledge is the most problematic abuser of Screens/Veil, and having both Ceruledge and Light Clay on the survey will cannibalize support from both options, similar to what having Tera Blast would do for Dragonite and Kyurem's scores.
I also hope that if Ceruledge is on the survey Light Clay is left off since Ceruledge is the most problematic abuser of Screens/Veil, and having both Ceruledge and Light Clay on the survey will cannibalize support from both options, similar to what having Tera Blast would do for Dragonite and Kyurem's scores.
I hope Dragonite and kyurem are left off so tera blast can score higher
I hope ceruledge is off the survey so light clay can score higher
I actually don't care about this tier anymore or what happens either way I'm just disagreeing with your suggestion. Nothing will happen.
Of all the mons I most strongly wanted banned, the only left is Kyurem. So that's something I guess. Not that it would be unlikely to see most things you want banned when you ban a whole tier worth of mons from a tier, but you know. There's a few other mons I could take or leave, and at least several of those I might probably be pro ban on, but I'm not sure how helpful it would actually be to focus on them.
I would like to see Tera Blast on the survey because, like, how many setup sweepers are you going to ban? That and other arguments I'm not sure we are supposed to talk about anymore. It would simply be nice to focus on mechanics, nearly any reasonable mechanic, over just straight mons for once. Or at least consider it. I would go for quite a few wild things like Booster Energy or Light Clay because I'm tired of getting nowhere slow with the mons focus.
But speaking of TB, I did want to ask a question because Dragonite is a somewhat interesting case. Do people really think Dragonite would be much more manageable without Tera Blast?
Personally, I don't. I think that most of its sets would be just fine outside of not having a real Flying STAB. Maybe Tera Ghost/Low Kick type nonsense wouldn't work. But most coverage move sets would. Something like Tera Fire Dnite runs Fire Punch, not Tera Blast. You have good coverage moves for Water, Fire, Ice, Electric, Ground, and Fighting. But I also don't think Dnite is broken in the first place. Only borderline. So, meh. It's gen 9. This much is sort of the deal with the devil we made.
The other thing I would really like to see is Samurott/Ceaseless Edge. Not for being outright broken, but for completely breaking the counterplay chains around hazards. I don't understand why we let this happen the whole gen. I read all this talk about hazard stack, Gholdengo, and even Gliscor. It's like I never left. It's like conversation we had years ago, actually. The real culprit was always H-rott. Spikes are the only real problem hazard this gen because they stack. This is the only spiker that bypasses Taunt and Hatt. There you go.
Fast Taunt and Hatt would be far more reliable without that thing in the tier. So would anti-lead Iron Crown. I made whole essay posts in the past about how you could only ever counter lead 2 of the 3 in the hazard dark triad of OU. I'm talking Ham, Glimm, and Bee. Take Ham out of the equation and you further streamline hazard counterplay.
To summarize, the two things I most want to see on the survey would either introduce new spinners (potentially) down the road or rebalance the hazard metagame. There's an elephant in the room about our setup sweeper problem. My survey top 3 is TB, Ceaseless Edge, and Kyurem.
I would like to see Tera Blast on the survey because, like, how many setup sweepers are you going to ban? That and other arguments I'm not sure we are supposed to talk about anymore. It would simply be nice to focus on mechanics, nearly any reasonable mechanic, over just straight mons for once. Or at least consider it. I would go for quite a few wild things like Booster Energy or Light Clay because I'm tired of getting nowhere slow with the mons focus.
But speaking of TB, I did want to ask a question because Dragonite is a somewhat interesting case. Do people really think Dragonite would be much more manageable without Tera Blast?
Personally, I don't. I think that most of its sets would be just fine outside of not having a real Flying STAB. Maybe Tera Ghost/Low Kick type nonsense wouldn't work. But most coverage move sets would. Something like Tera Fire Dnite runs Fire Punch, not Tera Blast. You have good coverage moves for Water, Fire, Ice, Electric, Ground, and Fighting. But I also don't think Dnite is broken in the first place. Only borderline. So, meh. It's gen 9. This much is sort of the deal with the devil we made.
The other thing I would really like to see is Samurott/Ceaseless Edge. Not for being outright broken, but for completely breaking the counterplay chains around hazards. I don't understand why we let this happen the whole gen. I read all this talk about hazard stack, Gholdengo, and even Gliscor. It's like I never left. It's like conversation we had years ago, actually. The real culprit was always H-rott. Spikes are the only real problem hazard this gen because they stack. This is the only spiker that bypasses Taunt and Hatt. There you go.
Fast Taunt and Hatt would be far more reliable without that thing in the tier. So would anti-lead Iron Crown. I made whole essay posts in the past about how you could only ever counter lead 2 of the 3 in the hazard dark triad of OU. I'm talking Ham, Glimm, and Bee. Take Ham out of the equation and you further streamline hazard counterplay.
To summarize, the two things I most want to see on the survey would either introduce new spinners (potentially) down the road or rebalance the hazard metagame. There's an elephant in the room about our setup sweeper problem. My survey top 3 is TB, Ceaseless Edge, and Kyurem.
While certainly contingent on whether the upcoming survey suggests screens deserve to be hit in the first place, I feel like a Light Clay hit is simply more elegant than a Deo hit.
The main argument I have against testing Deo instead of Light Clay is that if Deo gets the boot, players would just pivot to Tales and continue to abuse screens. While true that Deo gaining traction is the reason why screens-related ban discussions is on the table, there have certainly been several times throughout the generation where players have found Veil to be problematic as well.
Screens enabling deadly sweepers to set up freely is one thing, but the insulation from revenge killing after setting up is imo what truly makes screen offense suffocating to deal with sometimes. Without Light Clay, it would take 3 turns for Deo to set up both screens and get out, 1 turn to set up, and 1 more turn before the first screen expires. Having only 1 turn of insulation from offensive counterplay is a big downgrade from having 4.
A big part of what makes Deoxys so much harder to deal with than Tales is access to Taunt for Defog and whatever other utility he has in the last slot, but losing access to Light Clay already limits the window in which he can use those moves. After setting up screens, Deo has only exactly one more turn to do something before he has to switch to the next abuser, or screens will start to expire before said abuser can start setting up. Not having Light Clay means that clicking a screen becomes a real commitment, and honestly I can't see a world where that is still unhealthy.
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meh screens not really any more of a matchup fish style than rain or trick room. that's just how ladder goes.
idk why we still ok with zama clicking ID and blanking 95% of HO teams.
I hate to call things "braindead" but this fish promotes braindead gameplay patterns. same for gking and zapdos, but gotta start somewhere. tired of cores that push things to breaker spam
there is not sufficient counterplay to a lead ting lu and its effectiveness in setting hazards
most broken pokemon in OU. really distubingly OP. always been cheap
would restore balance to the force
These will be my votes and write-ins.
idk why we still ok with zama clicking ID and blanking 95% of HO teams. I hate to call things "braindead" but this fish promotes braindead gameplay patterns. same for gking and zapdos, but gotta start somewhere. tired of cores that push things to breaker spam there is not sufficient counterplay to a lead ting lu and its effectiveness in setting hazards most broken pokemon in OU. really distubingly OP. always been cheap would restore balance to the forceThese will be my votes and write-ins.
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh I am going to have to say no to this one.
Imo Roaring Moon was not broken at the time that the suspect happened. It hadn't been long since the TB Fairy set became a thing and I think we should have waited a bit longer to see if there would be reasonable counterplay. Even in the months that followed I still thought Roaring Moon was fine in the tier even if I also thought the current meta was more fun. If you notice however, I have mostly been speaking in past tense and things have changed with the rise of screens. I do not believe screens are broken as at worst it is similar to sun with a lot of strong abusers but also plenty of counterplay. However, due to Roaring Moon's incredibly high-speed allowing it to invest in bulk it would be almost unkillable with the only pokemon that could reasonably check the TB Fairy set being Corviknight (who does absolutely nothing in terms of damage) and levitate G-Weezing (who can only will-o-wisp). Neither of these pokemon can be described as serious counterplay and Roaring Moon would easily destroy most other pokemon in the meta. It can even run its traditional Tera Flying Acrobatics set which works just as well. For these reasons and probably many more I don't think Roaring Moon should be allowed back in the current state of the meta no matter how much good it brings.
Alolan Ninetales isn’t anywhere close to as potent or competent a screen setter as DeoS and has pretty big issues that really limit it. It’s a lot easier to abuse turn 1 for an advantage compared to DeoS who has the ability to customize itself how it likes and control lots of different match ups based on the player’s wants and needs.
IMO the reason screens got some talk in a couple past periods of the tier was because the playtime FELT really hard to deal with, until a specific set up threat would be banned and the style would lose a major king piece that would always output absurd pressure, being consistent. Notably this applies to Baxcalibur who really was the focal force of Teal Mask meta screens nonsense and it didn’t take too long for screens to die back down after Bax was banned.
I’d be down for a light clay test if it was possible because I feel it just exacerbates the “this tier has so many big threats to account for” issue that I think isn’t very enjoyable at times.
meh screens not really any more of a matchup fish style than rain or trick room. that's just how ladder goes.
1. Taunt+BU Ceruledge can beat it handily. Im not sure how you’d think this blankets and beats 95%
2. Hatterene, Cinderace, Gweezing (least favorite and I think it’s not THAT good but it’s plenty cisble), Treads, Tusk, Boots… Ting-Lu is a central presence don’t get me wrong but people have generally adjusted better to it these days.
3. No.
Yes I definitely agree with you that DeoS a better screens setter than Tales by a good margin, and regardless of whether Light Clay or DeoS gets hit (or not), the playstyle will definitely become less consistent. However, in a hypothetical scenario where one of the two were to get banned, the questions becomes "who is the next best setter, and how likely are they to become a problem?"
In a world where:
a. DeoS gets banned, then the next setter is Tales with Light Clay;
b. Light Clay gets banned, then the next setter is DeoS without Light Clay.
In my previous post, I have mentioned how I think screens allowing sweeper to set up is completely fair, and it's when it lasts way beyond the set-up turns that it can feel potentially problematic. As such, at least according to my standards of what is fair, I think DeoS without Light Clay is perfectly fine, something that I can't predict as confidently about Tales with Light Clay.
Tbh whether screens should or should not be hit is its entire other debate that I currently reserve strong judgment on, but if public opinion were to deem it to be unbalanced, then I would tend to believe that a Light Clay test is more likely to nip the problem in the bud than a DeoS one.
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Horn leech helps against mola. Alomomola is annoying but I've lost count how many games the opponent leans on it and finds themselves down to mola as their last, at which point it can't do a thing. There's a lot it struggles against, slow psynoise from hatterene stops the incomer from getting healed for example. God forbid it tries to wish/mirror coat into a substitute. Slow breakers like hydrapple, ursaluna or offensive hatterene mean it can't soak the 2 hits. The next Pokemon has to cop it.
I'm gonna be honest, of all the things that could be suspect tested i want Deo-S out of the tier because of how stupidly good and braindead is as a support mon enabling screens HO. I don't think that it is overpowered by itself, but it's not something i think that is healthy for the meta to have and i personallt don't like it's impact in the tier. The mixed sets would be cool but i swear 80% of the deoxys i see are screens bot
Grimmsnarl and Ninetales-Alola are more healthy as hyper offense enablers and it doesnt feel overbearingly difficult to stop them from setting screens/veil because there Is more counterplay, but with Deo-S the counterplay like Defog or Court Change gets stopped by Taunt. Your only option is a scarfer like Meowscarada or Darkrai, or some form of priority like Grassy Glide or Bullet Punch which a competent opponent can take advantage of with a opportunity to setup
Also it's another Spikes bot that makes even more unbalanced the hazards meta (i'm looking at you H-Samurott)
If it weren't for Dragapult, Ting Lu and Zama, this meta would be a HO fest
Grimmsnarl and Ninetales-Alola are more healthy as hyper offense enablers and it doesnt feel overbearingly difficult to stop them from setting screens/veil because there Is more counterplay, but with Deo-S the counterplay like Defog or Court Change gets stopped by Taunt. Your only option is a scarfer like Meowscarada or Darkrai, or some form of priority like Grassy Glide or Bullet Punch which a competent opponent can take advantage of with a opportunity to setup
Also it's another Spikes bot that makes even more unbalanced the hazards meta (i'm looking at you H-Samurott)
If it weren't for Dragapult, Ting Lu and Zama, this meta would be a HO fest
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I actually understand the reasoning behind wanting to ban Deo-S off of OU (I think that Light Clay would be a better solution, tbh), but it's a bit frustating to see since as an individual Pokémon, Deoxys is really balanced. I'd say in fact that it's not even OU top or even high tier level. However, Tera and this gen's infinite list of cheesy set up sweepers just makes the combination too strong.
However, I think that if Deoxys gets banned, nothing will change that much. Grimmsnarl will set up screens and pivot with Parting Shot, or Ninetales will A-Veil and Encore the Ting Lu into Stealth Rock, or Dragapult (an underated screens setter, btw) will do the same as Deoxys and then setup a good position with Curse...
I think that the problem is the quantity of threats in the tier, the number of turns they get and all the cheesy combinations Tera allows.
Sometimes, it feels like a russian roulette to face an HO team on the high ladder because of that.
However, I think that if Deoxys gets banned, nothing will change that much. Grimmsnarl will set up screens and pivot with Parting Shot, or Ninetales will A-Veil and Encore the Ting Lu into Stealth Rock, or Dragapult (an underated screens setter, btw) will do the same as Deoxys and then setup a good position with Curse...
I think that the problem is the quantity of threats in the tier, the number of turns they get and all the cheesy combinations Tera allows.
Sometimes, it feels like a russian roulette to face an HO team on the high ladder because of that.
I understand those who want action on Light Clay or Deoxys-S, but Ceruledge really optimizes the strength of Screens/Veil HO structures even considering that Ceruledge is not on each and every one of those teams due to how it compresses multiple roles together as an Iron Moth check, stall/general fat breaker that can snowball with a speed boost. I believe this sort of archetype would be significantly worse if Ceruledge were to be banned from OU much like when Veil HO dropped off after Baxcalibur's ban after the Teal Mask meta dropped as Ceruledge is quite a cheap mon even if it isn't super easy to pilot like Baxcalibur or some of the other mons that have been banned since then, such as Archaludon and Gouging Fire.
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I was mainly mentioning Deoxys-S because i have a personal contempt with that mon, but yea, Light Clay should also work. I also think that we should ban Wellspring because of how unstoppable are SD sets as a balance/stall breaker besides Pecharunt and some fringe checks like Sinistcha or Hydrapple (which btw Ogerpon can hit both of them super effectively with coverage), that would actually nerf many HO teams by making the stall/balance matchup way worse
While i agree that Kingambit is cheap, the reason why are we still "ok" with Zama being a check to HO is that the playstyle reached to a point where is almost impossible to stop without compromising your ability to answer other matchups, where Zamazenta is one of the only things alongside with Dragapult and Ting-Lu that stops your team of being completely rolled over by Deoxys and friends. In fact Zamazenta Is one of the few checks to Kingambitmeh screens not really any more of a matchup fish style than rain or trick room. that's just how ladder goes.
These will be my votes and write-ins.
Taunt Bulk Up Ceruledge is a thing if you want to beat Zama btw
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I would be very cautious about banning anything at this stage. We should probably focus on banning stuff that won’t make stall too good if they’re gone, such as Dragonite and Deoxys-Speed, because banning stuff like Dragapult, Glowking and Alomomola will only make the tier more reliant on stall for beating HO. Gliscor could also be a problem but banning it might make stall a problem.
Stall is not really good this generation tbh and none of the things you mentioned are considered broken, maybe Mola but thats another discussion. A lot of offensive threats have ways to break stall like NP Tornadus or Specs Raging Bolt, and that without mentioning Gholdengo that is the reason why Blissey runs Calm Mind in the first place. Not even HO has troubles with stall because of the power of Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge lol
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