Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ new survey -- see post 21,148 ]

[Finchinator]

I would be very cautious about banning anything at this stage. We should probably focus on banning stuff that won’t make stall too good if they’re gone, such as Dragonite and Deoxys-Speed, because banning stuff like Dragapult, Glowking and Alomomola will only make the tier more reliant on stall for beating HO. Gliscor could also be a problem but banning it might make stall a problem.

Feels like this post is more scared of an archetype than reflective of current metagame contents priorities, to put it bluntly. Nobody is seriously proposing bans on stuff like Dragapult or Glowking + we ban what is broken, not whatever you think does well or enables certain archetypes in the tier.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Stall is not really good this generation tbh and none of the things you mentioned are considered broken, maybe Mola but thats another discussion. A lot of offensive threats have ways to break stall like NP Tornadus or Specs Raging Bolt, and that without mentioning Gholdengo that is the reason why Blissey runs Calm Mind in the first place. Not even HO has troubles with stall because of the power of Life Orb Tera Ghost Ceruledge lol

To add to this stuff like tera steel coat ghold absolutely fry blissey and stall anyway, the pain split hatt set almost 6-0s stall, and hamurott is actually pretty good into stall as well
We'd need to ban like half of ou to make stall even slightly good

 

[Here's Weegee!]

I wonder how Ting-Lu will do if Kyurem and Wellspring get banned. It will probably be a lot more annoying for offense teams to deal with but it isn’t very good into rain teams because it’s a Ground-type obviously. And rain teams aren’t really a thing right now because of Woger. Either way, it’s a good idea to keep an eye on Ting-Lu in case it turns out to be broken.

 

[bahsar]

I wonder how Ting-Lu will do if Kyurem and Wellspring get banned. It will probably be a lot more annoying for offense teams to deal with but it isn’t very good into rain teams because it’s a Ground-type obviously. And rain teams aren’t really a thing right now because of Woger. Either way, it’s a good idea to keep an eye on Ting-Lu in case it turns out to be broken.

Ting-Lu is vulnerable to being worn down through lack of longevity, so I think it could be fine for the most part post hypothetical bans, but balance teams could have some issues if they lack something to immediately threaten it out like kyurem or wellspring. Walking wake usage might increase again.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I would be very cautious about banning anything at this stage. We should probably focus on banning stuff that won’t make stall too good if they’re gone, such as Dragonite and Deoxys-Speed, because banning stuff like Dragapult, Glowking and Alomomola will only make the tier more reliant on stall for beating HO. Gliscor could also be a problem but banning it might make stall a problem.

stall becoming a problem in gen 9 strains the bounds of fantasy. it's been struggling the whole gen just to keep its head above water. basically everything's gone wrong for it this gen that can go wrong for an archetype—the recovery pp nerf, losing transfer moves, severe cuts to knock off and toxic distribution among defensive mons, all the good water-type stallmons losing scald, the introduction of psychic noise, the hazard meta being extremely lopsided (which is less a problem than it used to be but still severely limits stall's ability to be flexible in builder), gholdengo's entire existence even independently of the hazard issue, and a general plethora of splashable mons and cores that can overwhelm entire stall teams with minimal to no support. even if the council decided "hey remember that post daddybuzzwole made a while back about his ideal meta? let's do that", stall would still not be a problematic or dominant playstyle

also, i don't think anyone is seriously arguing for bans of mola or glowking, and we missed the window for testing dragapult ages ago. i haven't seen a large contingent of people calling for any ban recently, in fact. the last big things i can remember having some significant level of support are waterpon, dragonite, and to a lesser extent kyurem (and the subject of the likeshop ladder but that discussion's resolved now). i can't think of anything in contention for a ban that would either buff stall to the point of it becoming problematic or make the tier more reliant on stall to beat ho

 

[Seraphyde]

stall becoming a problem in gen 9 strains the bounds of fantasy

You know what else strains the bounds of fantasy? my mom Suspecting anything other than Dragonite because at this point the council have successfully sandbagged their way out of a TBlast suspect being a possibility and including it on the survey just hurts the changes of Dragonite getting banned so there's no point anymore. Much like Macagro, I would greatly enjoy the removal of Kanye West's Gay Fishes from the tier, but as long as Ogerpon is also in it that's probably just not happening because people generally see it as a miracle cure to M*la (as if that were actually a reason to not ban it). Kyurem is the next most talked about mon but I think that after two suspect tests the answer is generally settled. Light Clay and Ceruledge being considered banworthy is new to me but I do not think they are really worth pursuing since both of them are just fads that will pass with time. Speaking of which, to all of you TTar believers out there, stop believing. It is a fad just like Araquanid lmao

 

[Finchinator]

the council have successfully sandbagged their way out of a TBlast suspect being a possibilit

We have given Tera Blast more focus and inclusion than anything else all generation that has never once been close to having enough support for a suspect test. So tired of these agendas that completely ignore statistically backed fact and history for the sake of blaming something since their minority opinion didn’t come to fruition.

It and Dragonite will both be on the survey. I find neither worthy of a ban, I don’t think either will get sufficient support, and the playerbase is entitled to respond how they see fit.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

We have given Tera Blast more focus and inclusion than anything else all generation that has never once been close to having enough support for a suspect test. So tired of these agendas that completely ignore statistically backed fact and history for the sake of blaming something since their minority opinion didn’t come to fruition.

It and Dragonite will both be on the survey. I find neither worthy of a ban, I don’t think either will get sufficient support, and the playerbase is entitled to respond how they see fit.

I don't even think tblast is a problem whatsoever. It only really enables a few sweepers to points of somewhat debatable brokenness (as of right now)
This is also more of a subjective statement but tera blast also feels like it's really synonymous with the mechanic in itself and kind of adds to the uniqueness of sv ou in my opinion, taking it out to fix a tiny bit of mons that probably aren't even too problematic anyway at the cost of that core mechanic feels like a bad decision.

 

[Seraphyde]

I don't even think tblast is a problem whatsoever. It only really enables a few sweepers to points of somewhat debatable brokenness (as of right now)
This is also more of a subjective statement but tera blast also feels like it's really synonymous with the mechanic in itself and kind of adds to the uniqueness of sv ou in my opinion, taking it out to fix a tiny bit of mons that probably aren't even too problematic anyway at the cost of that core mechanic feels like a bad decision.

It's really been done to death but I don't think Tera Blast is particularly broken so much as it is just unhealthy and unnecessary. It needlessly compounds the issues already present with Tera and the Pokemon that abuse it without providing much value to the tier beyond allowing somebody's favorite shitmon to pull a 420 IQ tech to upload to Youtube. I don't know why people fight to preserve it so much beyond principle.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

It's really been done to death but I don't think Tera Blast is particularly broken so much as it is just unhealthy and unnecessary. It needlessly compounds the issues already present with Tera and the Pokemon that abuse it without providing much value to the tier beyond allowing somebody's favorite shitmon to pull a 420 IQ tech to upload to Youtube. I don't know why people fight to preserve it so much beyond principle.

Tera as a whole is just a nuts mechanic for any singles metagame iwl. Completely flipping matchups and type charts and even just boosting moves power by a whole 50% is insane. I know this has been said before but still

 

[RoyalDispenser]

We have given Tera Blast more focus and inclusion than anything else all generation that has never once been close to having enough support for a suspect test. So tired of these agendas that completely ignore statistically backed fact and history for the sake of blaming something since their minority opinion didn’t come to fruition.

You may have facts and evidence to prove this otherwise but it really does not feel this way.

First off, I do 100% believe something has to go, but I literally would not vote high on dragonite in any of the surveys I participated in not because I want to sabotage dragonite but because I do not think dragonite is even relevant if it wasn't for TB, and I'm sure many do the same in the mindset that "TB would literally never happen so I'mma vote dragonite instead". From my pov, D-nite ban wouldn't make the game any less cancer to play with tera flipping matchups and it would be another excuse to pretend with 1 less tera blast user its suddenly not the problem over the next sweeper. I stopped engaging with surveys awhile ago cause I felt like they weren't doing anything or being read correctly.

Surveys are a lot more subjective than you give credit for and anyone who's used to reading data knows a forum with what, 200 maybe results (I may be very off but I doubt its a large percentage of players)? is going to be heavily skewing "not wasting vote on dragonite when tera blast is right there" and "not wasting vote on tera blast because dragonite is right there and more probable at this point". This is a generation where its very hard to agree on 1 problem cause everyone wants to vote objectively instead of subjectively and there is no objective fix-all. I still standby my post in the solgaleo thread... people really bringing up "not dropping a mediocre legendary because we have enough to deal with" as if that should even be a real criteria over replacing something dumber than it then.

You can ask 100 married men which is most problematic for them but after the 10th survey they're going to change answers since its beating a dead horse expecting a different result. That's why I don't even bother anymore cause I know the issue is tera (and its associations such as TB) and it will never, not even while we're doing absolutely nothing (it still blows my mind how many months its been of TB, dragonite, TB, dragonite, TB, dragonite, and there still isn't a fucking test on either of them... you have nothing to lose and if its down to a vote you get the results that were in retrospect better for the game overall) get at least tested to lay the subject to rest once and for all and the 1 time there was a policy review on it, the thread was if anything favorable or 50-50 on trialing it (not due to disagreements but questioning the policy of it) and then closed from inactivity.

At this point we're getting gen 10 before we find out if a TB suspect would favor it or remove it, and it cost 2 weeks / 52 weeks per year.

 

[Eviolite Bisharp]

You may have facts and evidence to prove this otherwise but it really does not feel this way.

I literally would not vote high on dragonite in any of the surveys I participated in not because I want to sabotage dragonite but because I do not think dragonite is even relevant if it wasn't for TB, and I'm sure many do the same in the mindset that "TB would literally never happen so I'mma vote dragonite instead".

Wrong, a lot of sets of Dragonite don't even run Tera Blast, being in 36% of all Dragonites in high ladder according to Pikalytics, meaning that 2 of 3 Dragonites don't even use Tera Blast. Of course it's an extra, but most Dnite sets don't even depend on tera to work with, so saying that Dragonite isn't even relevant without TB is not true.

From my pov, D-nite ban wouldn't make the game any less cancer to play with tera flipping matchups and it would be another excuse to pretend with 1 less tera blast user its suddenly not the problem over the next sweeper. I stopped engaging with surveys awhile ago cause I felt like they weren't doing anything or being read correctly.

The entire tera vote itself at the start of the generation was a mess and it ended up being a butterfly effect for every balance problem this tier has, and no one could agree into a solution. In my dream world, there would be a Tera team preview and each one of the players can see the teratypes of the other, that would make tera way more skillful and balanced, but at this point tiering action is probably not going to be taken around tera directly and we have to accept that. I also think that if we ban Dragonite we should also ban Ogerpon-W, Kyurem and Deo-S/Light Clay

Surveys are a lot more subjective than you give credit for and anyone who's used to reading data knows a forum with what, 200 maybe results (I may be very off but I doubt its a large percentage of players)? is going to be heavily skewing "not wasting vote on dragonite when tera blast is right there" and "not wasting vote on tera blast because dragonite is right there and more probable at this point". This is a generation where its very hard to agree on 1 problem cause everyone wants to vote objectively instead of subjectively and there is no objective fix-all. I still standby my post in the solgaleo thread... people really bringing up "not dropping a mediocre legendary because we have enough to deal with" as if that should even be a real criteria over replacing something dumber than it then.

You can ask 100 married men which is most problematic for them but after the 10th survey they're going to change answers since its beating a dead horse expecting a different result. That's why I don't even bother anymore cause I know the issue is tera (and its associations such as TB) and it will never, not even while we're doing absolutely nothing (it still blows my mind how many months its been of TB, dragonite, TB, dragonite, TB, dragonite, and there still isn't a fucking test on either of them... you have nothing to lose and if its down to a vote you get the results that were in retrospect better for the game overall) get at least tested to lay the subject to rest once and for all and the 1 time there was a policy review on it, the thread was if anything favorable or 50-50 on trialing it and then closed from inactivity.

At this point we're getting gen 10 before we find out if a TB suspect would favor it or remove it, and it cost 2 weeks / 52 weeks per year.

While i do agree that testing anything in this meta is taking a lot of time and burocratic process, the whole point of not wasting votes on a problem is more of a community problem on how we see the metagame and how to solve it rather than fault of the council itself. I mean, what are you gonna do if people don't want something banned? Ban it anyways and viceversa?

Surveys aren't perfect, at all, but the main point of tiering action and surveys is that the players that play the tier actively and create teams and develop the meta are the ones who take the decision of banning something if they consider it broken, not a Nicolas Maduro mode council.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Wrong, a lot of sets of Dragonite don't even run Tera Blast, being in 36% of all Dragonites in high ladder according to Pikalytics, meaning that 2 of 3 Dragonites don't even use Tera Blast. Of course it's an extra, but most Dnite sets don't even depend on tera to work with, so saying that Dragonite isn't even relevant without TB is not true.

I should've worded it better cause 'not relevant' is very disingenuous on my part, but I mean it wouldn't be such an egregious talking point in the meta if it wasn't for that versatility in sets, no one would care if it wasn't occasionally cheesing them with unexpected coverage or sweeping off 1-2 turns the opponent guessed the wrong coverage for.

If it went the game would be happier but not happy enough, if TB went I think the game would be overall better and actually achieve growth in a way that isn't "this tera type on X mon is more common now than Y type" and stuff can be evaluated more at face value (which d-nite really isn't that oppressive other than how much considering goes into dealing with one realistically). I can't in good faith think D-nite is worth as much attention over the global issues and voting for it is being dishonest / peer pressured off the stigma that "tera blast test would never happen cause its either being gate kept or not showing enough support anyways so just focus on individual pokemon." It like many was a symptom and it'd be different if the cause I could say is balanced in any way shape or form but its a borderline skill-less coinflip mechanic where the skill is how you adapt to it and not how you prepare for it which is how you're supposed to deal with setup sweepers in the first place.

but i cba if tera blast went and the meta could develop it's so fucking late in the generation I likely won't have to look back in like 10 months or so anyways (hopium).

 

[FayaWizard]

I'm really confused why Tera Blast Ban proponents are so eager for a suspect test since the support just isn't there, you do understand that if the suspect fails, you won't get another chance this generation? The support has clearly never been there this entire generation and I'm very confident that any suspect test would likely struggle to even break a 50% ban vote, much less 60%.

 

[Bold School]

I'm really confused why Tera Blast Ban proponents are so eager for a suspect test since the support just isn't there, you do understand that if the suspect fails, you won't get another chance this generation? The support has clearly never been there this entire generation and I'm very confident that any suspect test would likely struggle to even break a 50% ban vote, much less 60%.

As opposed to what? Not even trying and not being successful? Do you think there might be a chance after gen 10 launches or something? Or are you just telling us to not even try in the first place? Because I hate that imposed defeatism. It is one of my biggest complaints this gen.

Yeah, it might be hard to gain support if you are constantly told, for years, that everything about Tera and things remotely related to the generational mechanic lacks support and that it is futile to try. I don't know if I'm allowed to even talk about this anymore, but since you a mod did ask why, I'll try my best to answer honestly.

It feels like there is always a reason given why we can't take any action now on these things. During the early months of this gen, we were told by many on here that it was too soon to do anything on Tera and that we should wait. We kept waiting until a good chunk of the anti-Tera players left. Then we kept hearing how it was too late. Now we can't even talk about it anymore. My point in bringing this up isn't to argue for Tera, but to just suggest that this sort of discourse is unhelpful. And it feels maybe intentionally unhelpful, to put it politely.

When we had separate ladder discussions, the lack of support arguments were front and center as one of the main reasons given. "You just don't have the support." Imagine my surprise when I come back to the OU + Solgaleo ladder, with the kicker being that they didn't technically even have enough support from the Like Shop for it. That's right. They gave them the ladder anyways, unofficial as it was, without enough support. Hmmm...

And you know what? Once I got over the initial shock, I changed my mind. I think that was ultimately a good thing. It was great that Smogon let the people try it even though the support numbers weren't technically fully there. They got to try. I tried, too, and enjoyed myself. No, it wasn't indicative in of itself for any future tiering action. We still got to see some semblance of what it might look it. That's helpful, actually. We should do it more often. It probably teaches us more than some survey or months of no action during tournaments.

So how does this discussion of contraband topics relate to Tera Blast? Well, we keep hearing reasons to never try like a lack of support. But isn't it better to let us try even once in years than constantly be so dismissive about it? You have an elephant in the room about setup sweepers getting coverage they aren't supposed to have. Stuff is discovered during suspects all the time, too. If it actually got that far, we could probably at least learn some things, even if it wasn't successful. That to me is better than not trying because defeatism.

And I'm not saying Tera Blast has to be everyone's most urgent change candidate just because it tops my list. People can obviously feel free to push whatever they think is best. All I'm saying is it's just not right to shoot things down this way all gen. The lack of support argument isn't genuine.

 

[Karxrida]

As opposed to what? Not even trying and not being successful? Do you think there might be a chance after gen 10 launches or something? Or are you just telling us to not even try in the first place? Because I hate that imposed defeatism. It is one of my biggest complaints this gen.

It's just pragmatism. Trying to push for a Tera Blast suspect when banning it is already an unpopular position is a timewaster at best and actively detrimental at worst by taking time and resources away from tackling other potential issues in the meta.

Unless public opinion starts shifting then "wait until Gen 10" is legitimately your best option.

 

[JackRG]

Stall is def ass lol. The only reason it's worth using is because it has a good matchup into broken HO teams as long as you tech for ceru with tera dark or other shit like mandibuzz or itemless pex (which any stall team worth its salt should), at the cost of having a 30/70 MU or worse against everything else. It's decently viable because ladder spams HO since a lot of people just want skillless wins, but stall will never good no matter how many bans happen, 8 recovers is just too rough (Hope this gets reverted in gen 10, pointless nerf).

 

[Bold School]

It's just pragmatism. Trying to push for a Tera Blast suspect when banning it is already an unpopular position is a timewaster at best and actively detrimental at worst by taking time and resources away from tackling other potential issues in the meta.

Unless public opinion starts shifting then "wait until Gen 10" is legitimately your best option.

It's allegedly never been the right time even when there was support for it. The timing arguments don't hold water when it is never the right time for the entire gen. Always too early or late. Always busy. Never the right time.

The support arguments don't hold water for reasons I already stated. There is the chance to earn more support, too, if we were actually allowed to try. If something else beats it out as a priority then fine. Always being told to not try for one reason or another isn't helpful for gaining support in the first place, though. That isn't pragmatism. It's something I won't get into for the sake of keeping things civil.

 

[txlix]

the thought of a metagame without kyurem bring a smile to my face (same match btw)

 

[Avira]

It's allegedly never been the right time even when there was support for it. The timing arguments don't hold water when it is never the right time for the entire gen. Always too early or late. Always busy. Never the right time.

The support arguments don't hold water for reasons I already stated. There is the chance to earn more support, too, if we were actually allowed to try. If something else beats it out as a priority then fine. Always being told to not try for one reason or another isn't helpful for gaining support in the first place, though. That isn't pragmatism. It's something I won't get into for the sake of keeping things civil.

There was never any real notable support for action on Tera Blast when a 3.0 was the highest it ever got on a tiering survey, which is a score far too low to consider for a suspect, and that score was only from a specific group of tour players, so support was even lower among the playerbase as a whole. I plan on making a very long post on what possible tiering action SV OU can have before the end of the generation considering that I expect both enjoyment and competitiveness scores to be down compared to the previous survey in October all while nothing hits the 3.5 mark necessary for the OU Council to consider a suspect, necessitating a big picture root analysis on why there's such dissatisfaction with the tier while nothing is deemed suspect-worthy, and I do plan on getting into why people may have wanted action on Tera Blast at any previous point in time in the past (I was one of them) and why keeping Tera Blast on future tiering surveys is a poison pill that will prevent any further tiering action in SV OU. And before someone says that SV OU is just fine the way it is, SS OU had a competitiveness score of 7.65 by the qualified demographic at the tail end of the generation, and SV OU was a full point lower than that in October 2025. I don't consider anything below a 7 indicative of a sufficiently competitive game, and that speaks of there being issues with the tier even if the survey scores for individual mons don't reflect that.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

There was never any real notable support for action on Tera Blast when a 3.0 was the highest it ever got on a tiering survey, which is a score far too low to consider for a suspect,

What I'd love to know is if that 3;

- is 50% choosing 1 and 50% choosing 5

or

- average voting in the middle because they're on the fence with the topic.

Cause 3 can be interpreted very differently and this is why I never put stocks into survey data like this. (first would imply its a stupidly controversial subject that suspect test were literally designed to break mold on, later means almost everyone agrees something is on the fence or questionable about it and just doesn't believe/feel immediate need for change on it specifically.)

2 / 52 weeks per year solves this btw.

It's just pragmatism. Trying to push for a Tera Blast suspect when banning it is already an unpopular position is a timewaster at best and actively detrimental at worst by taking time and resources away from tackling other potential issues in the meta.

We're not doing anything lol Its not detrimental cause whatever "other potential issues" is also being procrastinated, the literal worst result is a vote doesn't pass a ban then everyone moves on from it.

I swear to god 6 months ago I checked to see if anything changed and every time I peek in the thread its "we'll have a survey" - > "and we concluded nothing but here's 6 pages of fuck dragonite/ogre/kyurem/tera everythings fiiiine" or "shit we have tournaments rn".

 

[olamomalo]

I'm sorry but why does this forum always push for fat slop? You guys sound like control player noobs in PvP card games, like there's something honorable about mindlessly trading 0-damage blows for 80 turns. "just ban the next breaker and then things will be fine this time. just one more."
(note: this is not an idictment against stall, because stall is actually executing committing to the long game. second most based archetype after hazard lead HO). And it's not like there's even the hazard pressure to make this interesting! OU needs higher power level, not lower.

Anytime offense teams need something like screens or weather boost to break though fat cores its usally an idication that defensive stuff is way too strong. And then the less offensively inclined teams are left in the gutter because it can't break through the ting-zama-fish junk of the tier. If you want less "cheese" then there needs to be less "you must be this tall to OU" defensive patterns. I'm not saying the cheese is good or bad but it's the consequence of having ting lu, zamazenta, pech, etc in the tier.

Like, watch: rain will be the next trend on ladder because it's easy c-team into offenses, and then will be like "oh so and so rain clicker is too strong!"

really should there be a 30 turn limit on ladder games and stall autowins, but gets social demerits. That would solve a lot of problems.

Also, unrelated, but zapdos and moltres still seriously have their abilities in this supposedly competitive tier. I find that preposterous.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Stall is def ass lol. The only reason it's worth using is because it has a good matchup into broken HO teams as long as you tech for ceru with tera dark or other shit like mandibuzz or itemless pex (which any stall team worth its salt should), at the cost of having a 30/70 MU or worse against everything else. It's decently viable because ladder spams HO since a lot of people just want skillless wins, but stall will never good no matter how many bans happen, 8 recovers is just too rough (Hope this gets reverted in gen 10, pointless nerf).

Agreed with this besides the last part, keep stall as bad as possible. It's genuinely such an annoying archetype and it doesn't really take skill either. Stalls just a matchup fish that takes all fun away from playing singles if you face it
Literally nobody likes a hundred + turn game

 

[Moyashi]

I'm sorry but why does this forum always push for fat slop? You guys sound like control player noobs in PvP card games, like there's something honorable about mindlessly trading 0-damage blows for 80 turns. "just ban the next breaker and then things will be fine this time. just one more."
(note: this is not an idictment against stall, because stall is actually executing committing to the long game. second most based archetype after hazard lead HO). And it's not like there's even the hazard pressure to make this interesting! OU needs higher power level, not lower.

Ngl it’s pretty tiresome to see comments like this that are reductive and try to boil discussions down to being a push for ‘fat slop’ (which usually is just code for defense, not fat which is between stall and balance). There’s a lot more there to the discussions going on but some of you will act like people want big breakers banned, even though there’s a big list of strong anti-defense tools that are balanced and healthy without even mentioning the top tier options. Also “it's not like there's even the hazard pressure to make this interesting”? What does this even mean? I hope I’m just misinterpreted this and you’re not implying defensive teams are full boots squads still (which haven’t been the most prevalent style in some time).

Anytime offense teams need something like screens or weather boost to break though fat cores its usally an idication that defensive stuff is way too strong. And then the less offensively inclined teams are left in the gutter because it can't break through the ting-zama-fish junk of the tier. I'm not saying the cheese is good or bad but it's the consequence of having ting lu, zamazenta, pech, etc in the tier.

There’s no need for screens or weather to break through fat cores. There are plenty of options naturally that aren’t fishy (and frankly weather is pretty bad at breaking fat teams usually since rain is just bad without archaludon and teams are naturally ready for it anyways). Complaining about fat when it isn’t even the strongest playstyle atm (really not near that range) is just strange. As for cheese, it’s not a consequence of those three pokemon being in the tier (those three are effective at handling various cheese strats/threats), it will always exist.

Like, watch: rain will be the next trend on ladder because it's easy c-team into offenses, and then will be like "oh so and so rain clicker is too strong!"

Won’t happen, because rain is much worse as a c-team into offense. Sun is better at this between Bolt, Venusaur and Walking Wake, as well as strong anti hazard support in hatterene and tusk. Offense has natural anti-rain tools in Rillaboom and Dragonite, not to mention Kingambit and Wellspring.

really should there be a 30 turn limit on ladder games and stall autowins, but gets social demerits. That would solve a lot of problems.

no offense truly but you have to realize how this sounds a little silly…

Also, unrelated, but zapdos and moltres still seriously have their abilities in this supposedly competitive tier. I find that preposterous.

They deter brainless clicking and force the opponent to consider their presence and play around it and the risk of status for clicking. I don’t think that’s preposterous.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

This is rather off topic from the current discussion but seeing someone bring up moltres made me think of the common interaction it has with Rillaboom (burning it)
Would it be a hot take to say Rillaboom is quite overrated? Most stuff it would want to "revenge kill" probably aren't even going to mind taking the glide besides like Ival.
Also, not only this, buts it almost feels useless besides for setting the terrain in some mus. If opp has a Zapdos, moltres, defensive torn, or corviknight (there's more to mention but those are the 4 that come into mind) rilla doesn't do shi.
It can knock moltres and Zapdos I guess, which is obviously good but a lot of times it'll get burned eventually throughout the match (or paraed)
Besides that, if you have a zap, rilla is obv never gonna glide on whatever mons in front of it so you can literally just stay in and do whatever most of the time because clicking glide just makes you lose momentum so much of the time
Like overall I just don't see the vision with this mon. Terrain is good but rilla just isn't allat