Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

[Moyashi]

I'm sorry but why does this forum always push for fat slop? You guys sound like control player noobs in PvP card games, like there's something honorable about mindlessly trading 0-damage blows for 80 turns. "just ban the next breaker and then things will be fine this time. just one more."
(note: this is not an idictment against stall, because stall is actually executing committing to the long game. second most based archetype after hazard lead HO). And it's not like there's even the hazard pressure to make this interesting! OU needs higher power level, not lower.

Ngl it’s pretty tiresome to see comments like this that are reductive and try to boil discussions down to being a push for ‘fat slop’ (which usually is just code for defense, not fat which is between stall and balance). There’s a lot more there to the discussions going on but some of you will act like people want big breakers banned, even though there’s a big list of strong anti-defense tools that are balanced and healthy without even mentioning the top tier options. Also “it's not like there's even the hazard pressure to make this interesting”? What does this even mean? I hope I’m just misinterpreted this and you’re not implying defensive teams are full boots squads still (which haven’t been the most prevalent style in some time).

Anytime offense teams need something like screens or weather boost to break though fat cores its usally an idication that defensive stuff is way too strong. And then the less offensively inclined teams are left in the gutter because it can't break through the ting-zama-fish junk of the tier. I'm not saying the cheese is good or bad but it's the consequence of having ting lu, zamazenta, pech, etc in the tier.

There’s no need for screens or weather to break through fat cores. There are plenty of options naturally that aren’t fishy (and frankly weather is pretty bad at breaking fat teams usually since rain is just bad without archaludon and teams are naturally ready for it anyways). Complaining about fat when it isn’t even the strongest playstyle atm (really not near that range) is just strange. As for cheese, it’s not a consequence of those three pokemon being in the tier (those three are effective at handling various cheese strats/threats), it will always exist.

Like, watch: rain will be the next trend on ladder because it's easy c-team into offenses, and then will be like "oh so and so rain clicker is too strong!"

Won’t happen, because rain is much worse as a c-team into offense. Sun is better at this between Bolt, Venusaur and Walking Wake, as well as strong anti hazard support in hatterene and tusk. Offense has natural anti-rain tools in Rillaboom and Dragonite, not to mention Kingambit and Wellspring.

really should there be a 30 turn limit on ladder games and stall autowins, but gets social demerits. That would solve a lot of problems.

no offense truly but you have to realize how this sounds a little silly…

Also, unrelated, but zapdos and moltres still seriously have their abilities in this supposedly competitive tier. I find that preposterous.

They deter brainless clicking and force the opponent to consider their presence and play around it and the risk of status for clicking. I don’t think that’s preposterous.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

This is rather off topic from the current discussion but seeing someone bring up moltres made me think of the common interaction it has with Rillaboom (burning it)
Would it be a hot take to say Rillaboom is quite overrated? Most stuff it would want to "revenge kill" probably aren't even going to mind taking the glide besides like Ival.
Also, not only this, buts it almost feels useless besides for setting the terrain in some mus. If opp has a Zapdos, moltres, defensive torn, or corviknight (there's more to mention but those are the 4 that come into mind) rilla doesn't do shi.
It can knock moltres and Zapdos I guess, which is obviously good but a lot of times it'll get burned eventually throughout the match (or paraed)
Besides that, if you have a zap, rilla is obv never gonna glide on whatever mons in front of it so you can literally just stay in and do whatever most of the time because clicking glide just makes you lose momentum so much of the time
Like overall I just don't see the vision with this mon. Terrain is good but rilla just isn't allat

 

[Eviolite Bisharp]

I'm sorry but why does this forum always push for fat slop? You guys sound like control player noobs in PvP card games, like there's something honorable about mindlessly trading 0-damage blows for 80 turns. "just ban the next breaker and then things will be fine this time. just one more."
(note: this is not an idictment against stall, because stall is actually executing committing to the long game. second most based archetype after hazard lead HO). And it's not like there's even the hazard pressure to make this interesting! OU needs higher power level, not lower.

Anytime offense teams need something like screens or weather boost to break though fat cores its usally an idication that defensive stuff is way too strong. And then the less offensively inclined teams are left in the gutter because it can't break through the ting-zama-fish junk of the tier. If you want less "cheese" then there needs to be less "you must be this tall to OU" defensive patterns. I'm not saying the cheese is good or bad but it's the consequence of having ting lu, zamazenta, pech, etc in the tier.

Like, watch: rain will be the next trend on ladder because it's easy c-team into offenses, and then will be like "oh so and so rain clicker is too strong!"

really should there be a 30 turn limit on ladder games and stall autowins, but gets social demerits. That would solve a lot of problems.

Also, unrelated, but zapdos and moltres still seriously have their abilities in this supposedly competitive tier. I find that preposterous.

This sounds so much like bait that i have the feeling that if i answer this seriously i will ended up looking like an idiot, but i'm gonna do it anyway

First of all, offense teams don't have a difficult time breaking through fat lol, actually it's the worst that it has been probably ever in a OU tier because of the Recover PP cut. There are A LOT of breakers and sweepers that destroy fat teams, like Ceruledge (both SD Life Orb and Bulk Up Taunt), NP Tornadus, NP Pecharunt, Future Sight Glowking, Hoopa-Unbound, Ursaluna, CM Stored Power Hatt, many sets of Gholdengo, Ogerpon-W, Hydrapple, SD Gliscor, Specs Raging Bolt, Kyurem, Hazard Stack structures and the list goes on and on. sure, they aren't autowin buttons against mola tinglu teams but the point is to beat skillfully the opposing defensive core

Screens are a bonus for offense and they were used practically since HO was invented, they aren't necessary for breaking fat Ting-Lu Mola structures

Now, about rain, rain is ass in tournaments not because of fat, but because:
1)Barraskewda is weak asf to priority
2)The abusers are way worse (Barraskewda, Overqwil, Tornadus-T and Raging Bolt, and thats it) than sun (Venusaur, Tusk, Walking Wake, Ceruledge, Iron Moth, Bolt, etc. Even Cresselia that isn't a offensive abuser but a defensive one)
3) Ogerpon-W is the worst matchup ever against rain, because it forces constant 50/50s between clicking Poison Jab or Flip Turn, which many times are in the Wellspring user favor

And about the 30 turn limit i won't even say anything because of how stupid is that lol

 

[JackRG]

This is rather off topic from the current discussion but seeing someone bring up moltres made me think of the common interaction it has with Rillaboom (burning it)
Would it be a hot take to say Rillaboom is quite overrated? Most stuff it would want to "revenge kill" probably aren't even going to mind taking the glide besides like Ival.
Also, not only this, buts it almost feels useless besides for setting the terrain in some mus. If opp has a Zapdos, moltres, defensive torn, or corviknight (there's more to mention but those are the 4 that come into mind) rilla doesn't do shi.
It can knock moltres and Zapdos I guess, which is obviously good but a lot of times it'll get burned eventually throughout the match (or paraed)
Besides that, if you have a zap, rilla is obv never gonna glide on whatever mons in front of it so you can literally just stay in and do whatever most of the time because clicking glide just makes you lose momentum so much of the time
Like overall I just don't see the vision with this mon. Terrain is good but rilla just isn't allat

Nah Rilla is good, it has some rough MUs but it has multiple ways around all these mons, all these mons hate knock off (even corv is a lot less annoying once you knock the helmet off), and that's before you get into SD + Tera Blast sets (or Tera Dark Knock with a bit of chip). Band is also a great anti offense option that can still put in work against these mons with the previously mentioned knock + uturn. Plus terrain really is that good, enables all kinds of broken shit like cm bolt (can remove the tradeoff of not running lefties for BE, notably) and seed ghold. Plus even if it does get hit with the static/flamebody, it can still force a knock and weaken these mons for gambit and/or oger

 

[arca9.]

Just wanted to share a Deoxys-S set I've been having a lot of fun with recently:

Deoxys-Speed @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Psychic/Fighting
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Psycho Boost
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball

Being the fastest unboosted mon in the tier, one well-timed NP is all it takes to pick up an easy KO or at least heavy damage. It can force out defensive Zama and Great Tusk and switch into Pecharunt easily, which I've been having some trouble with lately. I experimented with both Tera Psychic and Fighting because I wasn't sure just how offensive I wanted it to be. While testing, I found Tera Psychic's only purpose to be to enhance Psycho Boost's monstrous damage and outright OHKO some mons unboosted. Tera Fighting has some interesting uses; the Sucker Punch resistance is really nice and helps handling would-be walls such as Ting-Lu and Blissey (assuming Focus Blast hits). Dragonite has good synergy with this set, as it can break down walls early-game that would otherwise stop Deoxys-S from sweeping late-game. I also like Kingambit alongside Deoxys-S due to having good matchups against mons that Deoxys-S struggles against unboosted, like Hatterene or Slowking-G.

 

[Bold School]

Now, about rain, rain is ass in tournaments not because of fat, but because:
1)Barraskewda is weak asf to priority
2)The abusers are way worse (Barraskewda, Overqwil, Tornadus-T and Raging Bolt, and thats it) than sun (Venusaur, Tusk, Walking Wake, Ceruledge, Iron Moth, Bolt, etc. Even Cresselia that isn't a offensive abuser but a defensive one)
3) Ogerpon-W is the worst matchup ever against rain, because it forces constant 50/50s between clicking Poison Jab or Flip Turn, which many times are in the Wellspring user favor

You're right about nearly everything here, but I don't think there are only 4 rain abusers. Pokemon like Zapdos, Basculegion, and even Wellspring itself can make great use of rain. Looking at this phrasing further turns the gears in my mind. I remember when Pinkacross used Toxicroak of all things to drive a rain team in high ladder.

Rain usually sucks this gen, but it doesn't take that much to flip the script. Maybe a defensive glue like Hydrapple being used in a different way. There are probably other offbeat possibilities like Thunder/Scald Raiku or Hurricane Iron Jugulus. Of course, this would need to be tested. For whatever it is worth, I have already done a bit of testing on Raiku outside of Rain and found it good. Make of that what you will. The point is it isn't impossible to see another shift in the Rain meta.

 

[Magcargo]

Rain's weaknesses are more with the fat mons than Ogerpon-W. Ogerpon-W's presence definitely doesn't help, but the biggest threats to Rain from my exp were Garg, Gking, Mola, Gambit, Dragonite, and Zamazenta (you usually need to Tera a mon to beat it from what I've played). Mola protect stalling + endless pivoting is really annoying to rain, esp if its helmet, GKing reseting weather isn't great, and Garganacl just clicks Salt Cure 20 times and you have no ways of getting through that. Dragonite, Gambit and Zama are also a bit restristive for rain since these rain teams don't have the slots for a versatile defensive core. Kyurem is annoying, but you at least have a few tools against that with something like AV Iron Crown as a check.

Rain does still have really strong tools - like olamomalo mentioned, Iron Jugulis is a really underrated mon on rain since it gets fully accurate Hurricane's is resistant to Sucker Punch, and has taunt to annoy most of the fat mons you'll see. It also gets Tera Water Hydro Pump as a good nuking move. I'd say using it is a bit awkward because its probably the easiest mon on rain to lead with, but its still good. Raging Bolt in Rain may as well be Arch jr - most of its counterplay easily gets blown up by Weather Ball. Other Mons like Zapdos and Tornadus also become even crazier in rain. Most of the swift simmers are also crazy - Barraskewda is amazing, but other ones like Basculegion have their own pros, stuff like Overqwil or Dreadnaw also has the potential to be scary, etc. I'm sure various mons that have decent synergies with Rain - like Hisuian Goodra, also haven't been explored thoroughly.

 

[JackRG]

and are two nice hurricane pokemon that dont lose to random rock types or zapdos.

Wake gets hurricane??? Hold on this might cook

And yeah I agree with most of what you said, especially about overqwil. I think mystic water barra is the best set, I prefer tera poison to one shot oger and it doesn't need the power of tera water anyways. Heres some shit I could see working well on rain:

Hydrapple - Farms Oger

AV gking - Helps a ton vs specs kyurem and raging bolt, and appreciates surf being able to power through ting lu

Chesnaught - softchecks oger and gambit and can provide spikes

Specs pult - has fun options like surf and thunder, switches into oger once

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I think rain is pretty under-utilized for how hard it can own offense, which is the style du jour of ladder.

That said, for some reason people are addicted to barra flipturn and tethering themselves to iron treads + hatterene structures. I dont think it has to go all in on that. There are lots of other ways of breaking with rain that don't require 700 speed banded liquidation.

is a very peng swift swimmer that doesn't instantly die to priority and can beat dragons.

and are two nice hurricane pokemon that dont lose to random rock types or zapdos.

OGER herself and are unwallable snowball options on rain.

and other tera blast bois can click the water move to do things they aren't expected to.
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Water Kingambit Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk in Rain: 422-498 (97.2 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO Totally OWNED

I think the OGER weakness of rain is very overblown. It's more Raging Bolt and Specs Kyurem that do mean things.

wake also has the benefit of massively improving rain's matchup against sun. it's already a borderline unloseable matchup so you don't really need the extra improvement but it's still very funny

 

[Darlington]

This sounds so much like bait that i have the feeling that if i answer this seriously i will ended up looking like an idiot, but i'm gonna do it anyway

First of all, offense teams don't have a difficult time breaking through fat lol, actually it's the worst that it has been probably ever in a OU tier because of the Recover PP cut. There are A LOT of breakers and sweepers that destroy fat teams, like Ceruledge (both SD Life Orb and Bulk Up Taunt), NP Tornadus, NP Pecharunt, Future Sight Glowking, Hoopa-Unbound, Ursaluna, CM Stored Power Hatt, many sets of Gholdengo, Ogerpon-W, Hydrapple, SD Gliscor, Specs Raging Bolt, Kyurem, Hazard Stack structures and the list goes on and on. sure, they aren't autowin buttons against mola tinglu teams but the point is to beat skillfully the opposing defensive core

Screens are a bonus for offense and they were used practically since HO was invented, they aren't necessary for breaking fat Ting-Lu Mola structures

Now, about rain, rain is ass in tournaments not because of fat, but because:
1)Barraskewda is weak asf to priority
2)The abusers are way worse (Barraskewda, Overqwil, Tornadus-T and Raging Bolt, and thats it) than sun (Venusaur, Tusk, Walking Wake, Ceruledge, Iron Moth, Bolt, etc. Even Cresselia that isn't a offensive abuser but a defensive one)
3) Ogerpon-W is the worst matchup ever against rain, because it forces constant 50/50s between clicking Poison Jab or Flip Turn, which many times are in the Wellspring user favor

And about the 30 turn limit i won't even say anything because of how stupid is that lol

I will also add Primarina as well. It's good into fat stall. I saw Pokeaim use Tera Ghost Bulky Modest Primarina with Psychic Noise, Sub, Moonblast, and Whirlpool. Of course it's ability Liquid Voice is with these sets. It destroy stall easily from watching Joey video. It's not a bad tech at all, more underrated and anti meta.

 

[Eviolite Bisharp]

I will also add Primarina as well. It's good into fat stall. I saw Pokeaim use Tera Ghost Bulky Modest Primarina with Psychic Noise, Sub, Moonblast, and Whirlpool. Of course it's ability Liquid Voice is with these sets. It destroy stall easily from watching Joey video. It's not a bad tech at all, more underrated and anti meta.

I'm personally more fond of Sub CM Primarina for breaking stall, i honestly think that using these weak trapping moves is basically a gimmick on any pokemon that isn't Magma Storm Heatran, and even then many people rather use Lava Plume, mainly because it makes you worse against offense

That being said, Prima is more of a balance mon, and i was mainly thinking on offense breakers when i wrote that post, but yea, primarina is cool

 

[Eviolite Bisharp]

I've been trying a fun anti-meta gimmick this days with Choice Band Talonflame. This mon is really goated against offense which is trending these days

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Dual Wingbeat
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn

Gale Wings ensure that your flying type attacks have priority on them, and with this ability Brave Bird is basically the strongest priority move in the game

252+ Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 204-241 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Normal Mew: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew in Grassy Terrain: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This mon does so well against offense, it can beat things like Weak Armor Ceruledge, Valiant, Wellspring, non Espeed Dragonite, Tera Kingambit, Darkrai and basically almost every sweeper not named Raging Bolt with minimal chip damage. It also has the advantage that many sweepers use teratypes that don't resist Flying, except Steel maybe. Now, the disadvantage of Brave Bird is that you lose priority on your attacks because of the recoil, so Dual Wingbeat is a more consistent option when you have to revenge killing many mons. Even against fat this thing hits hard asf, if you pair it with Future Sight support this thing can wreak havoc against fat teams.

Now, obviously this mon has many flaws: the 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and the fact that you are constantly making yourself weaker with Brave Bird are things to consider, so i'm pairing this mon with Wish Mola for healing, and the Hatt/Tusk combo to ensure that rocks won't enter the field

 

[UltraSword]

I've been trying a fun anti-meta gimmick this days with Choice Band Talonflame. This mon is really goated against offense which is trending these days

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Dual Wingbeat
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn

Gale Wings ensure that your flying type attacks have priority on them, and with this ability Brave Bird is basically the strongest priority move in the game

252+ Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 204-241 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Normal Mew: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew in Grassy Terrain: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This mon does so well against offense, it can beat things like Weak Armor Ceruledge, Valiant, Wellspring, non Espeed Dragonite, Tera Kingambit, Darkrai and basically almost every sweeper not named Raging Bolt with minimal chip damage. It also has the advantage that many sweepers use teratypes that don't resist Flying, except Steel maybe. Now, the disadvantage of Brave Bird is that you lose priority on your attacks because of the recoil, so Dual Wingbeat is a more consistent option when you have to revenge killing many mons. Even against fat this thing hits hard asf, if you pair it with Future Sight support this thing can wreak havoc against fat teams.

Now, obviously this mon has many flaws: the 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and the fact that you are constantly making yourself weaker with Brave Bird are things to consider, so i'm pairing this mon with Wish Mola for healing, and the Hatt/Tusk combo to ensure that rocks won't enter the field

Ok one issue with all of this that gale wings only works at full health. That means you only get one turn to use brave bird thanks to recoil.

 

[Eviolite Bisharp]

Ok one issue with all of this that gale wings only works at full health. That means you only get one turn to use brave bird thanks to recoil.

Thats why i also have Dual Wingbeat as a secondary option. It also helps against Focus Sash users and even in worst case scenario where you have consumed Gale Wings you are still faster than some sweepers like Wellspring or Ceruledge

I don't think it's that great, but it's funny to use

 

[arca9.]

I've been trying a fun anti-meta gimmick this days with Choice Band Talonflame. This mon is really goated against offense which is trending these days

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Dual Wingbeat
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn

Gale Wings ensure that your flying type attacks have priority on them, and with this ability Brave Bird is basically the strongest priority move in the game

252+ Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 204-241 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Normal Mew: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew in Grassy Terrain: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This mon does so well against offense, it can beat things like Weak Armor Ceruledge, Valiant, Wellspring, non Espeed Dragonite, Tera Kingambit, Darkrai and basically almost every sweeper not named Raging Bolt with minimal chip damage. It also has the advantage that many sweepers use teratypes that don't resist Flying, except Steel maybe. Now, the disadvantage of Brave Bird is that you lose priority on your attacks because of the recoil, so Dual Wingbeat is a more consistent option when you have to revenge killing many mons. Even against fat this thing hits hard asf, if you pair it with Future Sight support this thing can wreak havoc against fat teams.

Now, obviously this mon has many flaws: the 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and the fact that you are constantly making yourself weaker with Brave Bird are things to consider, so i'm pairing this mon with Wish Mola for healing, and the Hatt/Tusk combo to ensure that rocks won't enter the field

Love to see anti-meta sets. I do think that Heavy-Duty Boots are worth considering to beat Stealth Rock, and you could turn it into a defogger or even a Bulk Up sweeper. Regardless, this looks like a super fun set that I will for sure try out in the future.

 

[Eviolite Bisharp]

Love to see anti-meta sets. I do think that Heavy-Duty Boots are worth considering to beat Stealth Rock, and you could turn it into a defogger or even a Bulk Up sweeper. Regardless, this looks like a super fun set that I will for sure try out in the future.

Thanks bro! BU sounds fun but i don't use HDB on this set because otherwise it's too weak to revenge kill, so i rather play around the sneaky pebbles with other methods

Gl trying this set! I'm kinda ass at playing so i couldn't make this set work on ladder but i wish you luck!

 

[arca9.]

Alolan Ninetales is criminally underused.

Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 248 Spe
Tera Type: Water
Timid Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Freeze-Dry
- Moonblast
- Encore

Why spend two turns setting up Light Screen and Reflect when you can spend one setting up an Aurora Veil? The set is pretty standard other than the EVs, which I changed to be slower than max pos Kantonian Ninetales in order to set up snow. I managed to form a hyper offense core with a simple strategy: set up snow, set up Aurora Veil, and switch into OU's favorite Unovan legendary.

Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Ice
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Draco Meteor

Kyurem has a ton of viable sets, but this is my favorite to use. A Specs-boosted, stab-boosted, Tera Ice Blizzard deals massive damage, never misses thanks to Alolan Ninetales's snow, and super-effectively hits a lot of common types. Additionally, its already decent bulk is granted a huge boost due to both Aurora Veil and snow. The best part is that most standard Kyurem sets don't use Blizzard, so most opponents won't see it coming. It's fun imagining the look on your opponent's face when you click Blizzard and completely wipe their team.

I know this has probably been done before, but I just wanted to express how much fun I've been having with these mons recently.

 

[moore's law]

Alolan Ninetales is criminally underused.

Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 248 Spe
Tera Type: Water
Timid Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Freeze-Dry
- Moonblast
- Encore

Why spend two turns setting up Light Screen and Reflect when you can spend one setting up an Aurora Veil? The set is pretty standard other than the EVs, which I changed to be slower than max pos Kantonian Ninetales in order to set up snow. I managed to form a hyper offense core with a simple strategy: set up snow, set up Aurora Veil, and switch into OU's favorite Unovan legendary.

Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Ice
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Draco Meteor

Kyurem has a ton of viable sets, but this is my favorite to use. A Specs-boosted, stab-boosted, Tera Ice Blizzard deals massive damage, never misses thanks to Alolan Ninetales's snow, and super-effectively hits a lot of common types. Additionally, its already decent bulk is granted a huge boost due to both Aurora Veil and snow. The best part is that most standard Kyurem sets don't use Blizzard, so most opponents won't see it coming. It's fun imagining the look on your opponent's face when you click Blizzard and completely wipe their team.

I know this has probably been done before, but I just wanted to express how much fun I've been having with these mons recently.

I don't disagree that Alolan Ninetales has a niche, but there is a reason for why Deoxys is considered the best screen setter in the tier. You almost always get value out of a Deoxys lead because nothing outspeeds you, so you are guaranteed to get a screen up, and since you outspeed everything, after getting a screen up, you are unlikely to get one shot by much stuff (there are a few things that get around this and can one shot deoxys like lead specs infiltrator pult shadow ball, but infiltrator pult lead is a headache for ninetales veil as well.)

Ninetales lead is quite exploitable, so I don't think it is underrated/unfairly overlooked. There are a plethora of strong steel types that can lead into ninetales and guarantee the kill or exploit ninetales (crown/ghold/gambit, and if it is scarf ghold, it will kill before you get veil up, which is a disaster) as well as fast taunt mons that can lead and taunt ninetales, so you are usually getting screens up once per match at most. Even if a team doesn't have any of those techs to prevent screens from going up, stuff like defog, court change or infiltrator can make it hard to consistenly set up, so you are forced to switch into something that won't invite corv (or the more niche weezing) or cinderace in if the team has one of those. Most good teams will have measures to deny ninetales veil, kill it outright, or get rid of screens, which is why it is considered inconsistent. A lot of these measures are telegraphed and as a ninetales user you can probably build around it, but there are a lot of things that can prevent ninetales from either getting veil up or enabling its teammates from taking advantage of screens. I think there is probably some merit in pairing it with a dedicated anti lead like iron hands that destroys most of the stuff that beats ninetales lead and can benefit from veil for mind games.

In addition to it being at risk of being killed turn 1 (which is not really a big deal on HO usually, suicide leads are famous for a reason) or prevented from getting veil up, it is weak and can't taunt or deny hazards in any way (which is important for a good HO lead), so any hazard lead like ting lu can also lead into you and get spikes + rocks or 3 layers of spikes up and then start phazing stuff, which is also horrible. Lu doesn't care if it is encore locked into spikes. You can't drop free dry for blizzard because otherwise wellspring lead is very troll. Basically the lead matchup is very bad, it doesn't beat a lot of leads, and it can't prevent stuff like cinderace or corviknight from coming in and removing the screens, which is why I think it is considered a suboptimal screen setter.

Alolan Ninetales is much better with DD Kyurem than specs Kyurem imo because screens + snow lets you get multiple DDs is front of physical attackers. Glowking is a much better partner for specs Kyurem - chilly reception sets snow + gets kyurem in safely (as opposed to having to switch in hard), letting you fire blizzards off for free as long as you have good hazard removal. Specs tera ice blizzard is pretty much unwallable, it has seen some use, it can do stuff like guaranteed 2 shot bulky gambit after lefties with rocks up.

 

[mcribs]

Oh woah golly gee im here again. after being in 1400s hell i climbed back up with some old classics. i was trying to not use av but no ive been too brainrotted unfort. i dont got nothing special this time

Heatran @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scorching Sands
- Lava Plume
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp

I'm using helmet again. Its what i like using for it. I tried modest air balloon and i kept missing magma storm(when can stay in and bank on a miss you know its bad). theres been a slight adjustment in scorching sands over ep. It lets me fish for burns even more. really likes the return of since it just kinda sits on it even with low kick. Tera dragon is here for which I didn't find too big of an issue but some others might. I could go ghost grass or flying instead. real fun rocker.

Great Tusk @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Headlong Rush
- Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin
- Bulk Up

got this set from Kazt_5 im pretty sure. Since already filled the rocker role, I sorta wanted to mess with this guy here. BU is really nice to have here, especially with variants of and . Lefties is super clutch with passive recovery against and . can easily outmuscle variants of too. Compresses a lot of roles which i liked. was fun

Gholdengo @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Make It Rain

i've noticed np ghold is more becoming just metal coat tera steel or some other stall breaker set. I do like those sets but i rather have bulky np. I just made it outspeed ada , something I recommend a lot of builders do with how strong it is. I was trying tera water with shuca berry for and . but I got shredded by hazards so boots worked out better. Tera ghost is here to shed its ground weakness so I beat down , plus it juices up shadow ball to do some nasty things. Its great to use

heres my team that i used with it to get to top 50 again. also some replays


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2534559303-gwmr0at1i0grwmbkc7jyulrirpqhtnbpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2533869134-6pn8qok7jlnxb212g6tgb1jp5t0sbgupw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2533861554-0xlg4r4aiwl1dmxyc2gbdmt8khckgh7pw

 

[escarlata]

I don't disagree that Alolan Ninetales has a niche, but there is a reason for why Deoxys is considered the best screen setter in the tier. You almost always get value out of a Deoxys lead because nothing outspeeds you, so you are guaranteed to get a screen up, and since you outspeed everything, after getting a screen up, you are unlikely to get one shot by much stuff (there are a few things that get around this and can one shot deoxys like lead specs infiltrator pult shadow ball, but infiltrator pult lead is a headache for ninetales veil as well.)

Ninetales lead is quite exploitable, so I don't think it is underrated/unfairly overlooked. There are a plethora of strong steel types that can lead into ninetales and guarantee the kill or exploit ninetales (crown/ghold/gambit, and if it is scarf ghold, it will kill before you get veil up, which is a disaster) as well as fast taunt mons that can lead and taunt ninetales, so you are usually getting screens up once per match at most. Even if a team doesn't have any of those techs to prevent screens from going up, stuff like defog, court change or infiltrator can make it hard to consistenly set up, so you are forced to switch into something that won't invite corv (or the more niche weezing) or cinderace in if the team has one of those. Most good teams will have measures to deny ninetales veil, kill it outright, or get rid of screens, which is why it is considered inconsistent. A lot of these measures are telegraphed and as a ninetales user you can probably build around it, but there are a lot of things that can prevent ninetales from either getting veil up or enabling its teammates from taking advantage of screens. I think there is probably some merit in pairing it with a dedicated anti lead like iron hands that destroys most of the stuff that beats ninetales lead and can benefit from veil for mind games.

In addition to it being at risk of being killed turn 1 (which is not really a big deal on HO usually, suicide leads are famous for a reason) or prevented from getting veil up, it is weak and can't taunt or deny hazards in any way (which is important for a good HO lead), so any hazard lead like ting lu can also lead into you and get spikes + rocks or 3 layers of spikes up and then start phazing stuff, which is also horrible. Lu doesn't care if it is encore locked into spikes. You can't drop free dry for blizzard because otherwise wellspring lead is very troll. Basically the lead matchup is very bad, it doesn't beat a lot of leads, and it can't prevent stuff like cinderace or corviknight from coming in and removing the screens, which is why I think it is considered a suboptimal screen setter.

You make all the right points about why lead AloTales is inconsistent, and for screens HO it’s true that is often suboptimal compared to DeoS. However, I do think the best types of teams to run Tales on is as a non-lead, on a more BO-oriented playstyle.

As exploitable as AloTales lead is, if you are not leading it, then you actually have a pretty good way to counter-exploit the opposing lead. You have already mentioned Iron Hands as a dedicated anti-lead to help Tales, but it can also be as simple as leading with Tusk or W-pon. The threat of a turn 1 Veil can often just baits the opponent into a suboptimal lead against the rest of your team.

DeoS and AloTales also tries to enable different styles of screens abusers. Ceruledge and Dragonite, staples of DeoS team that can sweep through teams after one turn of setup, are nowhere to be found on Tales teams; Meanwhile Tales teams, by nature of being less HO-centric, enables bulkier sweepers like Raging Bolt, Gholdengo or even Hatterene which can feel unkillable behind screens.

I think when most people think of screens, they think of HO because DeoS is undoubtedly very strong atm. But Tales BO is a very real playstyle I have used, and faced several times on the ladder.

 

[Eviolite Bisharp]

I don't disagree that Alolan Ninetales has a niche, but there is a reason for why Deoxys is considered the best screen setter in the tier. You almost always get value out of a Deoxys lead because nothing outspeeds you, so you are guaranteed to get a screen up, and since you outspeed everything, after getting a screen up, you are unlikely to get one shot by much stuff (there are a few things that get around this and can one shot deoxys like lead specs infiltrator pult shadow ball, but infiltrator pult lead is a headache for ninetales veil as well.)

Thats why i think that Deo-S is not a good influence for the metagame: it is so consistent at ensuring progress for HO teams and stopping your own progress with Taunt with very few solid counterplay (Infiltrator Pult, Lokix or a scarfer faster than Deo-S like Meowscarada or Darkrai) whereas Alolan Ninetales is more skillful to use because there is more possible counterplay to it

 

[moore's law]

You make all the right points about why lead AloTales is inconsistent, and for screens HO it’s true that is often suboptimal compared to DeoS. However, I do think the best types of teams to run Tales on is as a non-lead, on a more BO-oriented playstyle.

As exploitable as AloTales lead is, if you are not leading it, then you actually have a pretty good way to counter-exploit the opposing lead. You have already mentioned Iron Hands as a dedicated anti-lead to help Tales, but it can also be as simple as leading with Tusk or W-pon. The threat of a turn 1 Veil can often just baits the opponent into a suboptimal lead against the rest of your team.

DeoS and AloTales also tries to enable different styles of screens abusers. Ceruledge and Dragonite, staples of DeoS team that can sweep through teams after one turn of setup, are nowhere to be found on Tales teams; Meanwhile Tales teams, by nature of being less HO-centric, enables bulkier sweepers like Raging Bolt, Gholdengo or even Hatterene which can feel unkillable behind screens.

I think when most people think of screens, they think of HO because DeoS is undoubtedly very strong atm. But Tales BO is a very real playstyle I have used, and faced several times on the ladder.

I agree, I was talking purely in the context of lead Ninetales (and kyurem) because that was what the poster I was replying to was talking about.

It is definitely better on BO style teams - most Ninetales veil teams I've faced have had Hatt and Tusk, with Bolt, Wellspring and DD Kyurem all being commonplace as well. Snow defense boost means that tales is a good anti gliscor/tusk/lando tech. In fact, I think it can switch in on and either beat or comfortably set veil up on every gliscor set - if it is SD you can encore lock it, and defensive sets can't trade without going for tera and/or toxic stall (or catching it with toxic on the switch in, but then you know it's going to protect/switch the next turn, so get veil set up), so it is generally forced out.

Thats why i think that Deo-S is not a good influence for the metagame: it is so consistent at ensuring progress for HO teams and stopping your own progress with Taunt with very few solid counterplay (Infiltrator Pult, Lokix or a scarfer faster than Deo-S like Meowscarada or Darkrai) whereas Alolan Ninetales is more skillful to use because there is more possible counterplay to it

There is some other counterplay to Deo-S as well. You can't kill it as easily and are unlikely to taunt it, but you can lead with a dark type (or any knock off mon really) and click knock off (or even taunt turn 1 with something deoxys will be unlikely to click taunt against, like wellspring, to prevent both sets of screens), so you get to choose which mons on your team are walled because 1 set of screens (usually light screen against a knock off user) and all future screens will be up for only 4 turns. You need to exploit the fact that it only runs psycho boost (or no attacking moves) and may only consistently get 1 screen up for its full duration instead.

In practice it is never that easy, deoxys speed teams will have anti dark measures and it's teammates are generally a bunch of strong, scary mons, so I don't have a good answer for how do you deal with it consistently if your opponent counter leads you with something unexpected. The lead matchup in SV OU feels like it is quite a bit more important than in prior metagames because it is so fast paced - you can lose so much momentum turn 1 that you spend the rest of the game playing catch up.

I generally watch an ongoing tournament to understand how to deal with a specific archetype, because you can be sure the best players will be motivated to find ways to play against it.

 

[Finchinator]

SV OU is having another Tiering Survey: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/page-2#post-10864833 -- please take a moment to reply with your thoughts on the metagame

 

[JackRG]

SV OU is having another Tiering Survey: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/page-2#post-10864833 -- please take a moment to reply with your thoughts on the metagame

I think the pastebin you linked for top 250 on ladder is from a while ago, will it be updated?

 

[Magcargo]

Fun: 6
Competitive: 7
3
2
2
1
Tera Blast: 5
Light Clay: 5

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