Black & White Battle Subway Records

[uwsellan]

Are you trying to keep what you're using secret until you get a pb you're happy with?
I was doing meteor/pulse/tbolt/psychic. It was timid with all 31s apart from attack. HP Fire would've helped on the game I ended up losing as well!

It was 23 attempts to get a 49 for me, though I was trying to "speedrun", especially in the earlier sets. It wasn't really a proper speedrun though because I sat deliberating something for four minutes on set 5.

 

[Atem91]

Are you trying to keep what you're using secret until you get a pb you're happy with?
I was doing meteor/pulse/tbolt/psychic. It was timid with all 31s apart from attack. HP Fire would've helped on the game I ended up losing as well!

It was 23 attempts to get a 49 for me, though I was trying to "speedrun", especially in the earlier sets. It wasn't really a proper speedrun though because I sat deliberating something for four minutes on set 5.

As I said have no interest in going post 49 as thats the challenge completed as far as im concerned, when they let us submit streaks of 49 I will make the reveal and explain why its the optimal team.

Tbh I dont feel this is a challenge meant to be sped run its a very high luck and skill based challenge that needs to be played carefully and properly not swiftly.

 

[uwsellan]

As I said have no interest in going post 49 as thats the challenge completed as far as im concerned, when they let us submit streaks of 49 I will make the reveal and explain why its the optimal team.

Tbh I dont feel this is a challenge meant to be sped run its a very high luck and skill based challenge that needs to be played carefully and properly not swiftly.

Yeah I reached the same conclusion about speedrunning it after trying to. Demoralising and not fun. I only care about the streak PB now, but given I want to do that thing the Japanese Factory player Warabi does and build up 49 streaks on multiple cartridges and then go for 70-100 on them all, I need another cartridge to do a three-file setup without R4 or emulator, and I don't think I could play on a non-English one.

 

[Atem91]

Yeah I reached the same conclusion about speedrunning it after trying to. Demoralising and not fun. I only care about the streak PB now, but given I want to do that thing the Japanese Factory player Warabi does and build up 49 streaks on multiple cartridges and then go for 70-100 on them all, I need another cartridge to do a three-file setup without R4 or emulator, and I don't think I could play on a non-English one.

Gl sounds like a torturous project lol, for me 49 is the end of multi there are 0 reasons to continue the streak, even in gen 4 I have more motivation to keep the streaks going for giving the ribbon to more pokemon but there is no incentive in gen 5 after getting trophy any sensible streaks are done in singles or doubles.

 

[Atem91]

Yeah I reached the same conclusion about speedrunning it after trying to. Demoralising and not fun. I only care about the streak PB now, but given I want to do that thing the Japanese Factory player Warabi does and build up 49 streaks on multiple cartridges and then go for 70-100 on them all, I need another cartridge to do a three-file setup without R4 or emulator, and I don't think I could play on a non-English one.

I feel the same way about factory and most other facilities tho after gold I lose interest unless I really enjoy the facility like gen 3 dome, for me tower is the only place to do longer streaks tbh or possibly hall due to its uniqueness

 

[Brucolac]

I built a team using the Gravity + Sky Drop-glitch. In case you don’t know: If Gravity is used while sth is in the air by Sky Drop, then both mons come down, but the mon that was attacked will not be able to make a move, until the Skyp Drop user leaves the field or uses Sky Drop again. This can be used to create 2vs1 situations. The locked out mon still can be hit, and it choses moves without applying them (Sucker Punch against it sometimes works or failes accordingly, QC at times activates, etc). I got 117 wins.

Team

@Lum

Jolly, 172HP / 4Atk / 92Def / 4SDef / 236 Spd
-Sky Drop
-Dragon Claw
-DD
-Protect

dark Gem
Adamant, 252HP / 68Atk / 68Def / 116SDef / 4Spd
-FO
-Gravity
-Sucker Punch
-Leer

@Sash
Naive, 252 Atk, 4Satk, 252Spd
-FO
-Close Combat
-Overheat
-Protect/Stone Edge

@LO
Adamant, 92HP / 252Atk, 164Spd
-Bullet Punch
-Bug Bite
-Superpower
-SD

Playing

FO one foe, Sky Drop the other. In turn 2 use Gravity, which locks out the sky dropped mon, and the other mon can get an attack off. Dragonite needs to survive this, and it happened 2 or 3 times that he didn’t. If he survives, one normally is in really good shape, even if the active enemy mon still threatens Nite (like outspeeding and KOing). If so, just protect and bring Infernape in. During his FO, Nite can use DD. It’s not uncommon to do this cycle one more time back to Sableye, or even more, if necessary and possible. (One time I faced +4Def Vaporeon and I used in total 8 FOs, during which it always saw the guaranteed KO with Ice Beam, until I had enough boosts to oneshot it. Another time against a Suicunes Pressure I decided I need PP ups on FO afterwards). Leer also helps (Leer is incredible, in general) to start the sweep, especially if you are pressured and cannot setup another DD. If Nite can KO sth on his own, then I switch in the other FO mon, to have FO ready for the incoming mon. Or if the FO-mon dies, but Nite can KO the active mon next turn I can bring in Scizor to setup a SD. Sometimes a bit of extra damage is needed, but Protect + one more Leer and one is good to go. Overall when this is rolling, there is hardly anything that can go wrong. No danger from QC because of FO, and I also can set Gravity to avoid Bright Powder/Snow Cloak etc. if necessary.

Of course that is worth nothing if the lock fails. The front row is designed to minimize these chances. Nite needs speed, because if both mons outspeed it this means it needs to survive 2 potential attacks in order to save the lock. In such a case FO+DD may be an alternative strategy, applied e.g. when facing 2 dragons (likely followed by protect + switch in Infernape to come out on top). Dragonites EVs are such that it survives Haxorus Outrage. Faster Blizzard users are handled by Sableye: Froslass, Cryogonal, Jynx are OHKOed with Sucker Punch (unless Sash), or Fake Outed in the case of Suicune and Articuno. Speaking of which, Sucker Punch! I really think Dark Gem is THE item for Sableye in the subway. Sash or Sitrus I feel often are wasted. With the Gem, Sableye actually hits a bunch of relevant KOs: Espeon, Gengar, Froslass, Starmie, up to Latios234, to which this is EVd for.

Priorities for the Sky Drop target are: Hard hitting mons slower than Nite. Steels and defensively boosting stuff, Clear Body, mons with strong EQ (killing their locked partner, happened 2 times). Curse can be problematic, especially when run by a Steel type. Despite Leer, Nite may not be able to overpower them while they can KO after few Curses. Sometimes one quickly has to get Infernape in before they get out of control. These are the qualities that brought Infernape to the team: FO, being fast, and hitting Steels (and Ice and Stones – Nite approves). Infernape is a backbone of the team.

Ofc strong crits are the most common sorrow. I remember 2 times Nite got OHKOed, one time against dragons, the other against Ice. That’s quite terrible, being at 3vs4 having only Gravity to show for. At least against Ice the remaining offense is superb.

Other things that can stop or break the lock include: Switcheroo, Roar, Encore, Perish Song, Taunt, Gastro Acid, and Status on Sableye. Not too problematic mostly though.

Some more words to Dragonite: First I thought it just needs to survive and leave the work to its mates. But actually with DD it is the MVP, and the others main job is to support him. I think the ability to boost speed+attack really sets him apart from probably the more obvious choice of a Sky Drop mon: Tornadus (T). I first tried Tornadus-I in this role (70 wins), and the higher speed was highly valuable. But as a battle continued, one is struggling a lot more against the unknown backrow mons. To be fair, the streak with Tornadus was without a second FO in the back. Still, I think Dragonite is superior (Lum also being a factor, which Tornadus probably cannot afford to hold).

Lastly: Scizor. He was significantly less used compared to the others. Often it felt like a superflous luxury to be able to use SD. It still was crucial to have him, and I don’t know what could be a better replacement. If only his Bullet Punch went after Sableyes Leer. Luxury problems though.

Battle 28, no lock

Salamence+Haxorus.

I FO Haxorus, Mence Outrage into Nite, Nite DD.

Nite Protect, Sableye Leer, both attacks into Nite.

Leer, Nite Dragon Claw kills Mence, Haxorus Dragon Claw kills Nite. Hippowdon in, Infernape in.

Leer, Infernape CC kills Haxorus. EQ kills Infernape, Sableye at 60%. Jolteon in, Scizor in.

Leer, Jolteon Thunderbolt kills Sableye, Bug Bite kills Jolteon, Hippo Curse.

SD, Curse.

Bug Bite, Curse.

Bug Bite KO.

Intimidate was particularly bad, because without it, Nite would have been able to KO sth after one DD, while sth was FOed by Infernape.

Battle 54, plan B

Raikou and Suicune.

Cune may be faster than Nite, but FO+Sky Drop into it also is not good because it also may Protect, so I decide for plan B, which is DD.

FO Cune, Raikou Thunder against Nite, Nite DD.

Sableye Leer, Nite Sky Drop against Cune, Raikou Thunder against Sableye, luckily not crit.

Gravity, Raikou kills Sableye. Infernape in.

FO Raikou, DD.

Infernape out to reset FO, Dragon Claw kills Raikou. Landorus in.

Dragon Claw + Bullet Punch kill. Heatran in. I cleanup.

Battle 75

Marowak and Flygon.

FO Flygon, Sky Drop Marowak.

Gravity, but Flygon crits DM and kills Nite. Infernape in.

FO Flygon, Leer. Marowak EQ. It does not have Thick Club.

Leer, and Infernape finishes Marowak. Flygon kills Nape with Earthpower. Scizor in, Mamoswine in.

Sucker Punch kills Flygon, Mamoswine EQ. Scizor SD. Scizor at 55%, Sableye 10%. Golem comes in. I think I win.

But Mamoswine Uses Ice Shard and kills Sableye before it can break potential Sturdy of Golem! Scizor Bullet Punch kills Mamoswine. Golem Smack Down lol, Scizor in the red.

Sturdy now decides, but it has not Sturdy and therefore I OHKO.

I don’t think turn 1 was a mistake, because if Marowak crits an EQ Sableye is dead and I also don’t get the lock. If anything then DD would have been the play.

Battles 84-91

I managed to enter leading off with Infernape instead of Sableye, oops. Luckily I survived these battles. I just did sth ingame before, and then did not shuffle the mons back into the position I was accustomed to when choosing them. I guess I should be glad that I did not enter with a Chatot

Battle 118

The loss is kind of I don’t want to talk about it. I face Klinklang and Excadrill, normally setup fodder.

However for some reason I Sky Drop the Klinklang and FO the Excadrill.

Then Gravity, and Excadrill uses Rock Slide, crits Nite, has about 60%.

I switch Sableye out for Infernape, Nite Protect, Excadrill uses Sandstorm. I was not worried yet.

I click DD and Close Combat. But Excadrill moves first and kills Infernape with EQ. Klinklang almost dead, Nite at 25HP after Sand. I seriously did forget about Sand Rush. I bring Sableye back in.

FO the Excadrill and DD.

I switch Sableye out for Scizor and Protect Nite. Excadrill Rock Slide.

Nite has 3 HP, I switch it out, breaking the lock. Why did I do that? Idk. It was ok though, because Poison Jab does not much and Klinklang went for Giga Impact into Sableye. Scizor SD. Sandstorm is over.

I want to FO the Excadrill but it avoids with Bright Powder, Bullet Punch finishes then Klang, another bad decision. Excadrill EQ kills Sableye, Scizor at 36HP. Nite in, Hippowdon comes in.

Poison Jab kills Nite, Bug Bite kills Hippowdon and I snack a Sitrus (never give up!), 75HP. Weavile in.

FO + EQ take me out. Too many bad decisions.

Eligibility

What are your opinions on leaderboard eligibility of glitch teams? If the leaderboard gets crowded by glitch based teams that tend to be superior to normal teams I would not like it. If glitch is niche and does not break the game and is marked as glitch I would be fine having glitch teams on the leaderboard. Playing this team was a bit of a novel experience and I consider it to be an enrichment of the subway. Or, taking the other perspective: I would like to be able to find reference to such teams, too. Your opinions?

I enjoyed being able to boost in double battles. I did not enjoy putting much weight on not getting crit. I think it matters only every 10-15 battles, which should still allow you to get to.. 200 in few attempts?

Anyways, I enjoyed the unusual battle style, and would like to see if someone can take the idea further.

Lastly, I think Leer has serious potential. Also, Sableye basically never is dead weight, and it leaves the field with paperthin mons ready to be picked up. And it OHKOs a bunch of mons that for instance a Latios does not like to see. I think it’s worth exploring Sableye more.

 

[RoadRunnaRico]

Is there a difference between BW1 Subway and BW2 Subway?

 

[Brucolac]

Is there a difference between BW1 Subway and BW2 Subway?

The only thing I know off is that Sky Drop got replaced on mons that carried it (Thundurus or Articuno for instance), because of a glitch that occurs together with Gravity.

EDIT: I am not sure if this actually is true. I read it in several sources, but I believe I actually saw Sky Drop in BW2 recently. Hm......
But this should be the only change, if any.

 

[RoadRunnaRico]

Any tips for super multi and the best pokemon to use for it. Also this is way to get good pokemon for the Cpu as well?

 

[Brucolac]

I am back with my Gravity-Sky Drop glitch team. Run 1 ended at 118, now on run 2 I got to 371 wins! It basically is the same team, only some twisted EVs for speed on Sableye and Scizor.

Recap

Lum
Jolly, 172HP / 4Atk / 92Def / 4SDef / 236 Spd
-Sky Drop
-Dragon Claw
-DD
-Protect

dark Gem
Adamant, 236HP / 68Atk / 68Def / 116SDef / 20Spd (shifted 16 EVs from HP to Spd)
-FO
-Gravity
-Sucker Punch
-Leer

@Sash
Naive, 252 Atk, 4Satk, 252Spd (no perfect IVs)
-FO
-Close Combat
-Overheat
-Protect/Stone Edge

@LO
Adamant, 88HP / 4Def / 252Atk / 164Spd (no perfect IVs)
-Bullet Punch
-Bug Bite
-Superpower
-SD

I wanted Sableye to hit 73 speed, to be faster than the Ice Shards of Abomasnow34 and Lapras1. This did matter 2 times in the first run, and it also mattered for instance in battle 363 in run 2, which can be found in the video below. Further I EVd Scizor to 106 Spd. Maybe I also should give Nite max speed (143->145). Then at +1 it is faster than Excadrill in Sand, and Accelgor who has Encore.

The new streak

How did I get a streak 3 times as long with almost the same team? Better play and a bit more luck I would say. I now know better about potential threats, Curse now raises a bigger warning than before, for instance. I also found more ways to play around certain threats and having plan B in case no lock is possible. For instance again referencing Battle 363: Abomasnow partnered with another Blizzard user means the lock basically is impossible, because Hail destroys Multiscale and hence Nite drops in turn 2. But with some assist, Sky Drop kills Abomasnow and Nite stays safe.

Here I have some footage (also with 3 replay battles from run 1). Among replays there also are 28 consecutive live battles. I think that is necessary for getting a feeling for the working and consistency of this unusual team. I did some misplays during the live battles though. Battle 243 was insane. The losing battle 372 then was the unavoidable: bad matchup + bad luck. I tried to cut as much idle time from the live battles as possible.

Battle 243

+

Articuno4 would OHKO Nite, and Articuno3 is faster than Nite. I don’t see how I can do anything other than gamble. I chose to FO the Regice and Sky Drop Articuno. But it is the faster Articuno3 and hits Blizzard to bring both of my mons into the yellow.

Gravity makes no sense now, because Nite immediately would be killed. So I switch Sableye out for Scizor. Nites comes down from Sky Drop. Regice turns out to be Regice1, which unlike the other 3 sets did have a KO on Sableye, chose this slot and freezes Scizor with Ice Beam.

I protect Nite, I even get the double protect afterwards, but Scizor did not thaw in these turns, and then in the second turn gets killed by Thunderbolt. Infernape in.

I thought now I trade and then probably lose against the backrow. But then I found a way to get a kill for free: FO Articuno, and Sky Drop it while Regice aims for Nite. Then in the next turn it comes down from Sky Drop and the faster Articuno cannot move, while I kill Regice with CC. This worked out, and in comes Latias.

I protect Nite and kill Articuno with Overheat, which was a roll slightly in my favor I think. Latias uses EQ revealing Latias4. Infernape at 1HP. In comes Heatran.

If it is Heatran4 I probably lose, because only Infernape can hit it really. But I figure it probably is not Heatran4 because it would have come in instead of Latias4 (which is slower than Nape)? I decide I need to attack with Nite and Protect Infernape. If Latias KOs Nite and it’s not Heatran4 I still win, because Sableye can oneshot Latias and Nape can bring Heatran into Sucker Punch range. But Latias hit the protect anyways, and so Nite Koed it with Dragon Claw. I cleanup the Heatran. I can’t believe I won this.

In this set of 7 I had 2 other close calls that I first saved. One was against Horn Drill Rapidash & Sheer Cold + Blizzard Vanilluxe, where the former immediately drilled Nite after I implemented the lock.

The other battle was even closer, it was against Mamoswine, Cryogonal, Glaceon and Froslass where I also could not get the lock and in the end had to 1v1 the Froslass with -2 Nape.

Battle 372

+

Terrible matchup. I am afraid of Sucker Punch miss and Sash. I FO the Abomasnow and want to DD, but Blizzard crits and kills Nite. Scizor in.

Bullet Punch kills Abomasnow, and I set Gravity to be able to hit the Froslass reliably. Froslass Blizzard crit kills Sableye (small chance to survive the round without crit). Entei3 in, Infernape in.

FO Entei and BP kills Froslass which indeed had no Sash. Gothitelle in.

I saw Entei3 do stupid things in the past. Extrasensory does not have a kill on Nape though. I get high rolls with BP and Overheat on Gothitelle, but it survives with a pixel. Entei killed Scizor with Heatwave and Gothitelle kills Infernape with Psychic.

Random Notes

• Roar and Whirlwind do not work against Nite when the lock is in place.
• Using Sky Drop a second time after the lock was in place and the locked mon got killed may fail. I don’t know the exact circumstances though. Maybe it has to do with which slot one targets.
• Gastrodon did chose Earthpower against Nite in the turn it was in the air when I used Gravity? So had I not used Gravity the same turn, it would have attacked a flying Nite.

But what kind of an achievement is this?

I think the perception of the success of a glitch based team goes like this: You get a low streak? -> the glitch is bad. You get a high streak? -> the glitch is OP. Like there is some scaling such that you always end up with no achievement. I still am proud about my composition and streak, because the glitch is known since over 15 years, experienced players considered it and the general notion of it seems to be: It’s bad. I know people tried it but struggled to get to 100 wins. I think it’s safe to say I got way farer than most people expected this glitch to go.

I am happy that I recognized the consistency that Nite offers. There of course in theory is a ton that can go wrong, but I correctly assessed that speedy Nite and FO-support will narrow down problematic scenarios far enough to get a significant streak going.