• Smogon Premier League is here and the team collection is now available. Support your team!

OU SPL XVII SM Discussion

Drachenkeule

is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
SPL Auction.png


SM Cores (Starters in Bold + potential subs):

:Gardevoir-Mega: Congretation of the Classiest: Dj Breloominati♬, Piyu,
:Raikou: Circus Maximus Tiger: Tace, Noname6293, Zaza
:Lycanroc: Wi-Fi Wolfpack: Gondra, Bbeeaa, Sacri´
:Tyrantrum: Dragonspiral Tyrants: Vert, Tenebricite, Baddy
:Alakazam-Mega: Indie Scooters: Drachenkeule, Ox the Fox
:Garchomp: Stark Sharks: DeeJ, Fdmw
:Marowak-Alola: Team Raiders: Charmflash, Fc, Eternal Spirit
:Entei: Alpha Ruiners: Metallica, ChrisPBacon, Devin, PZZ
:Snorlax: Ever Grande BIGS: GeniusX, Larry, Stareal
:Suicune: Cryonicle: RobJr, C0mp, MGdos 16, Luigi

Hf with discussing!


 
FIRSTTT!!
Let’s get straight into it.


Congregation of the Classiest: DJ Breloominati♬, Piyu
Spitfire is a very solid SM player with consistent results, and this is clearly his comfort tier. He’s shown up well in Masters and other tours featuring SM OU. I’m honestly rooting for this slot—expecting some really good games. I’d say 5–6 wins is very doable. Support isn’t amazing, but he’s more than capable of prepping on his own.

Circus Maximus Tiger: Tace, Noname6293, Zaza
This slot is just fun to watch. Tace has a strong SM OU record, which shows in his tournament performances. This time around, he’s backed by rookie Noname and former SPL player Zaza. Zaza’s a known SM builder and a solid fallback option, while Noname is also quite competent in the tier. Overall, good support here—I’d expect Tace to finish positive.


Wi-Fi Wolfpack: Gondra, Bbeeaa, Sacri´
FREE MY GOAT BBEEAA. Gondra is basically an SPL regular at this point. He’s backed by Bbeeaa, who’s won SM Circuit and openly claims SM as his best tier—with results to back it up (great SM showings in OUPL). Gondra skipped the last SPL, and before that he was on ORAS OU, so I’m really excited to see what he brings to SM this season.

Dragonspiral Tyrants: Vert, Tenebricite, Baddy
This slot is… confusing, to say the least. Vert tier-locked himself out of SV OU and is now playing SM OU in SPL for the first time. That said, he did have a decent SM showing in Masters if I remember correctly. He’s supported by Tenebricite, a known SM mainer, and Baddy, who had an impressive Circuit run and made finals this year. Definitely an interesting slot to watch.


Indie Scooters: Drachenkeule, Ox the Fox
Drach had a great debut last time with the Sharks, going positive in a pretty tough pool at 8k. He also had strong support back then (Giannis, why ad, Star). This time, he’s on the Scooters with comparatively limited support, which could be an issue. Still excited to see how he adapts. Pais is available as a sub if needed.


Stark Sharks: DeeJ, Fdmw
DeeJ has been excellent in Masters for the past two years and finally finds himself on the Sharks. He’s a strong clicker and has tons of backing—Mind Gaming, Santu, Michael, and FDMW. Speaking of FDMW, he’s had great results across multiple OU tours with SM this year, all positive records. Hope he gets enough chances to really shine.

Team Raiders: Charmflash, Fc, Eternal Spirit
Charmflash had a rough last SPL (3–6), which probably explains the price drop from 12.5k to 3k. But people forget he once went 8–3 and is a very capable SM builder—even if some of his teams get a bit… experimental. With Fc and Eternal Spirit as support/sub options, this slot has more depth than it might seem.


Alpha Ruiners: Metallica, ChrisPBacon, Devin, PZZ
Easily my highest-rated slot. Metallica is insane, and the support here is just absurd—Chris, Devin, PZZ, Enzo, Ima, Empo and Nagol (who decked soulwind with freakin mantine). It’s stacked. I fully expect Metallica to farm this pool. Devin and PZZ are also very reliable subs if needed. Go Ruiners.


Ever Grande BIGS: GeniusX, Larry, Stareal
GeniusX has been consistently solid in SM OU over the years, and I don’t see that changing this SPL. Larry and Stareal are reliable backup options if the team needs flexibility.

Cryonicle: RobJr, C0mp, MGdos16, Luigi
Rob had a strong start last year but couldn’t end positive—clearly looking for redemption this time. He’s backed by C0mp (Masters winner), MGdos (SS/SV main but a strong SM player too), and Luigi as another sub option. This slot has more support than most teams outside of Ruiners, which could really help them edge ahead.




As always, this was done purely for fun (and to like-whore). None of this is meant to be personal—don’t take it to heart.


Biggest snub in this tier has to be Abele not getting drafted despite winning Circuit and having a great showing. Your time will come, brother. (Drink some water.)


Wishing everyone a great SPL season—looking forward to clean games and some exciting new team dynamics
:reshiram:
 
Last edited:
FIRSTTT!!
Let’s get straight into it.


Congregation of the Classiest: DJ Breloominati♬, Piyu
Spitfire is a very solid SM player with consistent results, and this is clearly his comfort tier. He’s shown up well in Masters and other tours featuring SM OU. I’m honestly rooting for this slot—expecting some really good games. I’d say 5–6 wins is very doable. Support isn’t amazing, but he’s more than capable of prepping on his own.

Circus Maximus Tiger: Tace, Noname6293, Zaza
This slot is just fun to watch. Tace has a strong SM OU record, which shows in his tournament performances. This time around, he’s backed by rookie Noname and former SPL player Zaza. Zaza’s a known SM builder and a solid fallback option, while Noname is also quite competent in the tier. Overall, good support here—I’d expect Tace to finish positive.


Wi-Fi Wolfpack: Gondra, Bbeeaa, Sacri´
FREE MY GOAT BBEEAA. Gondra is basically an SPL regular at this point. He’s backed by Bbeeaa, who’s won SM Circuit and openly claims SM as his best tier—with results to back it up (great SM showings in OUPL). Gondra skipped the last SPL, and before that he was on ORAS OU, so I’m really excited to see what he brings to SM this season.

Dragonspiral Tyrants: Vert, Tenebricite, Baddy
This slot is… confusing, to say the least. Vert tier-locked himself out of SV OU and is now playing SM OU in SPL for the first time. That said, he did have a decent SM showing in Masters if I remember correctly. He’s supported by Tenebricite, a known SM mainer, and Baddy, who had an impressive Circuit run and made finals this year. Definitely an interesting slot to watch.


Indie Scooters: Drachenkeule, Ox the Fox
Drach had a great debut last time with the Sharks, going positive in a pretty tough pool at 8k. He also had strong support back then (Giannis, why ad, Star). This time, he’s on the Scooters with comparatively limited support, which could be an issue. Still excited to see how he adapts. Pais is available as a sub if needed.


Stark Sharks: DeeJ, Fdmw
DeeJ has been excellent in Masters for the past two years and finally finds himself on the Sharks. He’s a strong clicker and has tons of backing—Mind Gaming, Santu, Michael, and FDMW. Speaking of FDMW, he’s had great results across multiple OU tours with SM this year, all positive records. Hope he gets enough chances to really shine.

Team Raiders: Charmflash, Fc, Eternal Spirit
Charmflash had a rough last SPL (3–6), which probably explains the price drop from 12.5k to 3k. But people forget he once went 8–3 and is a very capable SM builder—even if some of his teams get a bit… experimental. With Fc and Eternal Spirit as support/sub options, this slot has more depth than it might seem.


Alpha Ruiners: Metallica, ChrisPBacon, Devin, PZZ
Easily my highest-rated slot. Metallica is insane, and the support here is just absurd—Chris, Devin, PZZ, Enzo, Ima, Empo and Nagol (who decked soulwind with freakin mantine). It’s stacked. I fully expect Metallica to farm this pool. Devin and PZZ are also very reliable subs if needed. Go Ruiners.


Ever Grande BIGS: GeniusX, Larry, Stareal
GeniusX has been consistently solid in SM OU over the years, and I don’t see that changing this SPL. Larry and Stareal are reliable backup options if the team needs flexibility.

Cryonicle: RobJr, C0mp, MGdos16, Luigi
Rob had a strong start last year but couldn’t end positive—clearly looking for redemption this time. He’s backed by C0mp (Masters winner), MGdos (SS/SV main but a strong SM player too), and Luigi as another sub option. This slot has more support than most teams outside of Ruiners, which could really help them edge ahead.




As always, this was done purely for fun (and to like-whore). None of this is meant to be personal—don’t take it to heart.


Biggest snub in this tier has to be Abele not getting drafted despite winning Circuit and having a great showing. Your time will come, brother. (Drink some water.)


Wishing everyone a great SPL season—looking forward to clean games and some exciting new team dynamics
:reshiram:
s/o chatgpt
 
In week 3 of the SPL, we had at least two "interesting" team's bring by Charmflash and Pzz. On both occasions, we had a Pokémon in common, Manectric. But why? I tried to understand what was behind this prep.
1770165491870.png
Starting with Charmflash, who brought us a team with Mimikyu +
M-Manectric, two Pokémon that are theoretically unviable in the current SM meta, the team lacks of power, synergy and structure as a whole is also flawed. Charm would need to play precisely correctly, from turn 1 to the end, without any mistakes; even then, it's still a difficult scenario to see a win. Charmflash's gameplay itself wasn't all bad; he managed to make some plays and apply pressure at certain moments. However, even numerous "good" plays can't save a ambitious team, especially against a tough opponent like GeniusX, and the ending was what any viewer who watched expected.

1770165565950.png
Pzz brought us a fat team with M-Manectric, cosmic power-encore clefable, and bossnite. At first glance, it's very difficult to understand what this mega manectric is doing in this structure. It's possible to see M-Lopunny, M-Zam, or even an M-Scizor being much better used in this team. To be honest, any mega OU would be better placed.Regarding the game in general, there isn't much to say. Pzz played a very lackluster game, basically missing all the plays or predictions he attempted. The result was fair based on the gameplay.

Finally, I understand the players' desire to innovate on big stages like the SPL, but bringing in random Pokémon isn't the way to go, especially when the Ruiners desperately needed to win this week. SM already has a stable meta; there's no need to reinvent the wheel, and sometimes the simplest approach works best.
 
Last edited:
Finally, I understand the players' desire to innovate on big stages like the SPL, but bringing in random Pokémon isn't the way to go, especially when the Ruiners desperately needed to win this week. SM already has a stable meta; there's no need to reinvent the wheel, and sometimes the simplest approach works best.
Mega Manectric is an unviable mon and should stay in 2018. You got niche garbage doing more than a mon taking up an entire mega slot. Using it in SPL Stage represents mediocrity and bad prep.

That's what I'm saying, what the fuck are we doing loading Mega-Manetric in 2026, on sixes that happen to be obliterated by the common weather structures of the tier? Of course, neither PZZ nor Charmflash is the only one guilty of this, as sacrificing specific match-ups for a strategic advantage is commonplace for Bo1 formats. However, by that metric, it has become similarly common to take it to the eleventh degree. While I remain critical in context to those instances (of which there have been numerous), I acquiesce that it is the nature of the Bo1 that players look to the novel for the competitive jump against the opposition.

But what are we doing loading 6-0 or get 6-0d sixes? Are we really resorting to this level of match-up fishing in what supposedly is the most prestigious team tour on the site? Is this the skill level that should be indicative of the competitive standard? Why are we fucking fishing while forfeiting some of the most important match-ups in the tier? Oh, whoops, the opponent loaded a VIABLE team, guess I'll roll over and die. Should the goal of prep not be to maximize your odds of winning? This is the peak?

As SM continues to be the most underwhelming of the SPL tiers, any game review of this godforsaken season would be boiled down to me bashing both players, cause guess what, when the competitive standards of the tier are set to nonmainers and fishers, the tier's gonna be fucking rank. Initially, I did intend to write a dissertation breaking down these issues, particularly in the context of the nuances of prep and game-sense that seem to be universal issues with the general SM pool; however, I have been busy with IRL shit (fuck college), so unfortunately, I probably will be saving that write-up after this SPL (though I also plan on writing up a rudimentary guide for newer players and probably something about EVs in the meantime, so it probably just lines up better lol).

Anyway, with the absolute dearth of any meaningful content in this barren-ass discussion thread, I would like to bring to attention a particular Clefable set that has started to find usage in the tier (don't worry, you will find more bitching later in this post lol):

Demon/Cosmic Clef:

clefable.gif


Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Cosmic Power
- Encore
This actually is a set I designed in 2023 while talking to Kustavan, who, for some godforsaken reason, had a fixation on incorporating Comic Power Clef on a six. Despite the snowball potential of the traditional Cosmic Clef (Charge Beam + Stored Power), it is inherently flawed as a wincon, necessitating consecutive turns of setup, often getting shut down before it could get the ball rolling to sweep, or getting outpaced and overwhelmed by the biggest threats in the tier. Note this is a time period where Type-Spam structures (particularly the likes of double-fire HO popularized by ABR and iterations of Psyspam) began to gain prominence, leading to a paradigm shift as the metagame progressively became more offensive, inciting the rise of type-spam structures, leading to the downfall of the old standards of Lati-Pex-Glisc Fats and inciting the usage of disruption such as weather and taunt, along with the popularization of base stat bullies (*cough cough* Cresselia) to counteract it. This led to a significantly higher octane metagame, with the dominant playstyles of the tier shifting to overwhelming the opposition versus outlasting them. While memories of getting swept by the stupid fuck in CG persisted, it was clear such a set would be nothing but a dead slot in the modern meta.

Around this time, I became hooked on DPP following the year's SPL, with bruno's fantastic post on his season being a huge source of inspiration as a builder. As I delved into the nuances of the tier, one thing became very clear: Encore is kinda fucking broken. Despite the numerous nerfs the move received in the following generations, locking the target onto its last used move for three straight turns opened a massive amount of possibilities for Clef, and I had my answer to the passivity issues of the set.

Reminiscent of DPP iterations of the bastard, Demon Clef combines the disruptive properties brought by Encore, alongside the defense-boosting Cosmic Power to shut down the litany of set-up sweepers that pervade SM. Seismic Toss might seem unusual as the sole damaging move; however, it provides the benefit of consistent damage against the number of fires, steels, and CMers that permeate the tier, allowing it to effectively take advantage of its defensive boosts and fulfill its role as an anti-offense engine, either as a self-sufficient wincon or a long-lasting disruptor, shutting down key threats and creating entries for its teammates to abuse the free entries provided by Encore.

In general, Demon Clef has been finding more uptick in usage as an anti-meta option, with two of the four uses of Clefable being this particular variation concurrent to this SPL (1, 2). While by no means anything indicative of dominance, it is nonetheless an interesting adjustment to the increasingly more offensively slated meta.

Ok, that's cool, you may be wondering, so what's the point of this egotistical chronicle about a cancer Clefable set?

While my introductory exposition seems self-indulgent, the context provided is a critical part of my next segment, particularly pertaining to the fundamental issues with the placement of Demon Clef on PZZ's week 3 team: synergy. This specific set was designed with the concept of abusing its capacity to generate switches through the disruptive nature of Encore, be it through hazards or immunities, and the teammates surrounding Clefable need to be chosen with the explicit intent of supplementing it. Mono-Seismic Toss is by no means self-sufficient in forcing progress, essentially being relegated to a dead slot against the numerous regen-cores, magic guard abusers, and hgh-health pools that permeate the meta. You NEED to pair this mon with spikes alongside external progress makers such as SD Gliscor alongside hazard setters than can consistently threaten the common defoggers of the tier such as Greninja; because otherwise Taunt Tornadus-T is going to cycle you infinitely, Toxapex is going to reset your boosts constantly, and Chansey is going to absorb all your fucking PP cause you can't dent it for shit. Not to mention, pairing Clef with bulky steel types (notably Heatran) is imperative to its success, because guess what, Z-moves are one of the few ways to bypass Encore besides switching out, and the vast majority of mons that can bypass this mechanic happen to be dangerous set-up sweepers that more often than not have some way to nuke Clef off the face of the earth with some prior set-up.

Context is essential when considering the criteria of building, and it is evident that the vast majority of starters and their support structures are unfamiliar with these nuances. Oh gee, I wonder why, maybe it's because they don't play this fuckass tier besides the few times it manifests in officials or team tours, and that's why we are using Heat Wave Zapdos as our fogger on a six that shits the bed versus SD Grounds. All the details and intricacies native to the tier just get relegated to nothing more than "just match-up fish: it's the tier lmao". If you slot in someone who doesn't play RBY into RBY, they aren't going to be able to pick up all the nuances in-game necessary to play at a top level, an issue that, believe it or not, translates to two other fundamental pillars of comp: prep and building. Despite its comparatively plug-and-play nature, between the depth of the mechanics present in the gen, the fine details that form the core metagame of the tier, the capacity for player expression, and the variety of viable mons to consider in the builder, SM is fucking hard tier to master. Yes, there have been cases where players have managed to adjust to the meta, and there are certainly noteworthy performances in this current SPL, done by players who do not main the tier, but there are far more who have failed to make the necessary adjustments in the madhouse of SM. However, this is a topic for another day, and as I alluded to earlier in the post, I will eventually revisit the subject with something more substantial in the future.

------------------------------------------

There still is an SPL season left to be played, and to not just end on doomer shit, its only week 3 of SPL. Games will be won and lost, players will get swapped, cool, funny shit like Scarf Hoopa-U might pop up again, and who knows, maybe we might be able to see the pinnacle of competition in what is supposedly most prestigious tour on site. Nonetheless, I feel SM has, albeit somewhat deserved, earned a reputation that precedes it. After all, what use is there in finding consistency when its all just a game of match-up fishing? Who cares about innovation, as long as I can win the game in front of me, what matters? Who needs to know nuances of the tier when its just big button beats smaller button? Why even bother with the meta at all?

The tier is full of potential, and as a competitor, a builder, a prepper, and someone who has burned thousands of hours into the tier, I can't help but feel like its all being squandered. But again, I am getting ahead of myself.

Pretentious as it may be, the culmination of my Pokémon journey is SM, and while it probably won't matter in the long run, hopefully this rant has provided a worthwhile lens into the metagame I spent so long trying to master. Although I am not optimistic, so it goes. We shall see what we shall see. But well, for the time being, that's all I got (hopefully I can stop procrastinating like a motherfucker when I actually have some time to write those guides in the near future, who knows, maybe if I can get something going it might be worthwhile in the end).

Until next time, peace y'all.
 
Last edited:
You did not invent this Clefable set. It is called mannatclef and MANNAT came up with it.

I understand that people like to take credit for “inventing” sets, but making a claim like this when the set was invented by someone else is just strange lol.
Ngl i think u might be wrong. My buddy zRyan74 came up with it then MANNAT stole the credit on sum coco type shi
 

Attachments

  • MV5BMDIyM2E2NTAtMzlhNy00ZGUxLWI1NjgtZDY5MzhiMDc5NGU3XkEyXkFqcGc@._V1_FMjpg_UX1000_.jpg
    MV5BMDIyM2E2NTAtMzlhNy00ZGUxLWI1NjgtZDY5MzhiMDc5NGU3XkEyXkFqcGc@._V1_FMjpg_UX1000_.jpg
    400.7 KB · Views: 24
Cant be having the less competitive format(bo1) in favor of the 'spectacle' or preparing less teams and then solely blame the players for 'bad' brings imo
Me and some others havent been super happy with a lot of the oras brings/plays(mainly people reusing too much and the odd not-so-great team) but as someone who has already experienced how ass it can be to prep in spl for this shitty bo1 format fishy brings are gonna end up happening, it just is what it is. Especially when youre playing against someone with a diverse scout, if you spend all week trying to figure out the perfect team, that has at least counterplay to everything you might face even your own teammates will tell you you just need to tank some matchups and thats how the greats do it.
I know everyone wants their shot at the 'best tour on the site' badly, esp those who main these fairy gens that you can only really play in masters like ORAS and soon also SM. Trust me this is all coming from the guy who didnt get in spl this year and is blocked from playing in wcop for my country, i basically only have 1 third of masters games to play my main tier. But publicly bashing the players actually competing is just gonna make you look even worse to managers unless you are putting up prime tesung numbers in oficial individuals or something. Just complain about it privately like all of us :pirate:
Conversations around bo3 in spl for old gens always goes into the dumbest places and i know ill get flamed for even mentioning it but it really is the culprit for the worse quality of games in the more power crept tiers like ORAS and SM.
tl:dr be nice and keep playing well and you will get your shot at the tournament, bashing the people actually competing publicly only makes you come off as a jerk even if i sympathize and even agree with some of the points brought up
Also also im pretty sure the manectric team coulda won that with a bit cleaner play? Its not like the guy loaded it and was 6-0ed from lead, he was playing a human opponent.
 
Last edited:
Well I wanted to write but was too slow, I will still post it.
Manectric is outclassed by almost all pivot and fairs pretty badly in all trending playstyle from weather to hazards stack. Its supposed niche as an offense killer that can volt, intimidate and with colorful coverage is in fact unrealistic: too frail so you can't intimidate safely, too weak leaving you unable to weak to ohko gliscor or manaphy which an impossible trade to correct with the rest of the team if you go for something as passive as pzz came up with or just nonsense like charmflash. I think players this season are mistaking innovation with originality, being original does not make you a pioneer or someone goated at building, countless people built dogshit and that does not make them good at the game. There is no wonder vert is winning without breaking a sweat, he sticks to what is working even tho it was fishy, it is efficient. Empo adopted the same strategy during his runs, teams that has huge blind spot but were highly effective and in pair with a good prep (or at least allow him to outplay with victory in mind, not just outplay to lose at the end anyway because of how bad the disavantage is).
You did not invent this Clefable set. It is called mannatclef and MANNAT came up with it.

I understand that people like to take credit for “inventing” sets, but making a claim like this when the set was invented by someone else is just strange lol.
As for this, I don't think I saw this clefable set in years in SMOU until Proftreez brought it to life in hazard stack structures. Encore seismic toss set is even a dpp uu set (so is really Mannat the creator), so whether it is Mannat or Proftreez that created the set is of no importance...Proftreez was the one who made it function in smou for the past year.
as someone who has already experienced how ass it can be to prep in spl for this shitty bo1 format fishy brings are gonna end up happening, it just is what it is.
I agree with this state of mind and understand how big of a pain prep is. But do you really think manectric mimikyu was a good fish? I can maybe "maybe" see the ups of manectric but both of them is just Charmflash trolling for the viewers. I mean most of his brings the past 2 spl were fishy and unorthodox with eject bulu or doublade but the logic of the team was still here and you can argue it just did not land. Here it is a new low we reached.
Outside of the bo1 problem we face each spl and in fact in all teamtours, the real issue comes from the pool of players in smou: old players just stick to what worked in their time and go for effectiveness while new players invent and create new broken structures but don't have the same level of ingame in general yet as old legends like empo, welliou, punny to play against them in an spl setting; leaving them invisible to managers. Skype is an exception in all of this, he knew current gen and the level of its player pool, brought innovation with cresselia and charizard x while having the ingame level that could rivalize with already established players. In time, new players will turn up and will be given a chance, just like it happened for oras which has never been as popular as rn in a long time, but we have to aknowledge that smou is in a dry season. So many new players and builders are undrafted because managers know nothing of the smou scene anymore. Or they are drafted to give their team but kept on the bench, just builds giver…(if the starting player accept suggestions)
 
Last edited:
he showed me mannatclef in 2019 back when he blessed the community with grinding sm truly a pioneer in innovation
I am surprised that someone that did the analysis of Clefable in DPP UU in 2019 did not know that cosmic encore set already existed in….2009. Truly a pioneer in dpp OU maybe idk but did not invent the set ig :eyes:
IMG_5722.jpeg

You all completely missed the point of Proftreez post and went into ego trip for who is the creator. Hope this clarify this most important matter…No one really invented anything on pokemon since the pokemon existed
Or was it just sarcasm? T_T
 
Last edited:
I found some comments here pretty amusing, especially the callout that I am trolling for the fans. As funny as that would be I am unfortunately trying my best. I'll lay down some thoughts on why I've been bringing what I have been bringing so far, and talk a bit about the current meta.

Offense is king. Aside from a few Toxapex builds it is very hard to bring balanced team structures in the current meta. People have started gravitating towards ridiculously strong breakers like Kyurem, ZardY etc. and the main way to not have to counter them is to simply bring your berry Magearna offense. Berry is better than AV vs. Psyshock Lele, Kyurem and generally more flexible vs things like Lucha or even Gliscor. This trend has resulted in anti-offense mons and techs to become more attractive as well. Considering GeniusX is very fond of offense I figured hed use it last week, however, he smartly subverted my expectations and brought a sturdier team which not only stylistically punished my overload on anti-offense, but due to his Seismitoad bring also matched particularly well into my primary strategy of luring in his ground-type (mainly expecting lando, maybe garchomp, worst case gliscor) with pdef invested manectric, or shuca koko, or beam pdef gear, and then proceeding to win the game with fast, terrain empowered volt switches. Now, why did I choose to autolose to Seismitoad? Because autolosing to something extremely common is not a choice in current SM, its a promise made 3000 years ago.

PwkwGpn.png


The teambuilding constraints:
:Toxapex:
Toxic Spikes. Every team needs an answer to it but some people will argue Toxapex himself is actually the only viable absorber. I mean your next tier of poison mons is Amoonguss Nidoking and then what Scolipede? Fini can help, Taunt on Torn can help, stuff like Defog Gliscor exists. The teambuilding strain, however, does too, eating up a whole slot or at least a few dedicated moves.
:tapu lele::alakazam-mega:/:tapu koko::magearna:/:tapu bulu::kartana: Terrain being 1.5x yet so easily accessible in SM requires you to have answers to Psyspam, Volt Switch, and to a lesser extent Kartana/Serp in grassy. Things like Seismitoad need to be brought. Cresselia, berry Magearna.
:pelipper::swampert-mega::manaphy::charizard-mega-y::heatran::victini: Weather requires you to ideally have two dedicated fire/water resists, as well as generally disincentivizing passivity due to Manaphy and Heatran becoming near unstopable in their respective weather.
:ferrothorn::skarmory::greninja::greninja-ash: Spikes are omnipresent nowadays, Ferrothorn in particular seems to pick up a lot of usage. You basically need your entire team to be able to hit it or have some dedicated removal thats ideally immune to leech. Ridiculous requirement.
:Tornadus-Therian: This mon requires a unique type of answer since it needs a flying resist that doesnt really mind Knock Off. It invalidates team structures using stuff like Steela, Skarmory, or even Bronzong as their flying resist.
:kommo-o: You better bring a fairy! But thats easy right? Theres no way a good team couldnt fit a fai..
2GV0Z8J.png
.
:gliscor: SD Gliscor has fallen in popularity but don't worry because you still have to respect it in teambuilding on the off-chance he does show up. Need to play either offense or recover mon with ice move strong enough to kill it.
:volcarona::dragonite::Hawlucha::magearna::gyarados::gyarados-Mega: A variety of dangerous sweepers all requiring their own unique answer.
:kyurem-black::charizard-mega-x::kartana::garchomp::landorus-therian::hoopa-unbound::mawile-mega::medicham-mega: Ridiculous standalone breakers plague this tier, some more managable than others.
:scizor-mega::reuniclus::cresselia::clefable::latias-mega: Bulky win conditions also each requiring their own answer.

And I am sure many more, which I couldnt think of on the spot.

Which brings us to the heart of the issue, namely that this tier is in need for some tiering action centralizing the metagame more around a few key threats & answers to them. However, the SM council is so dead that none of them are playing in SPL or even participating whatsoever. When I made my post about a Landorus-Incarnate test my dear teammate Star had privately told me that they do not wish to make a change that large in SM. Not that the mon would be too strong for the tier. No argument about it negatively affecting x or y. Just change = bad. Here's the screenshot. To me this complacency doesn't make a whole lot of sense, nor does it make a lot of sense for Star to decide the future of a tier he does not play. My thread later got locked by Star despite garnering a fair bit of interest from the general playerbase because it "failed to stay active". The fact that Lando-I is allowed to remain quickbanned despite Cresselia and Mega Latias being introduced to the tier at a later date is a disgrace. Either way, Lando-I is not the only mon that could get retested. Things like Mega-Metagross, Pheromosa, Zygarde, Aegislash are all good candidates for centralizing the meta more around themselves and counters to them. Unfortunately none of that will ever happen as long as the decission makers for this tier decide that change is bad because its change. The only way this could improve would be for the playerbase to demand better from them.
 
Last edited:
I found some comments here pretty amusing, especially the callout that I am trolling for the fans. As funny as that would be I am unfortunately trying my best. I'll lay down some thoughts on why I've been bringing what I have been bringing so far, and talk a bit about the current meta.

Offense is king. Aside from a few Toxapex builds it is very hard to bring balanced team structures in the current meta. People have started gravitating towards ridiculously strong breakers like Kyurem, ZardY etc. and the main way to not have to counter them is to simply bring your berry Magearna offense. Berry is better than AV vs. Psyshock Lele, Kyurem and generally more flexible vs things like Lucha or even Gliscor. This trend has resulted in anti-offense mons and techs to become more attractive as well. Considering GeniusX is very fond of offense I figured hed use it last week, however, he smartly subverted my expectations and brought a sturdier team which not only stylistically punished my overload on anti-offense, but due to his Seismitoad bring also matched particularly well into my primary strategy of luring in his ground-type (mainly expecting lando, maybe garchomp, worst case gliscor) with pdef invested manectric, or shuca koko, or beam pdef gear, and then proceeding to win the game with fast, terrain empowered volt switches. Now, why did I choose to autolose to Seismitoad? Because autolosing to something extremely common is not a choice in current SM, its a promise made 3000 years ago.

PwkwGpn.png


The teambuilding constraints:
:Toxapex:
Toxic Spikes. Every team needs an answer to it but some people will argue Toxapex himself is actually the only viable absorber. I mean your next tier of poison mons is Amoonguss Nidoking and then what Scolipede? Fini can help, Taunt on Torn can help, stuff like Defog Gliscor exists. The teambuilding strain, however, does too, eating up a whole slot or at least a few dedicated moves.
:tapu lele::alakazam-mega:/:tapu koko::magearna:/:tapu bulu::kartana: Terrain being 1.5x yet so easily accessible in SM requires you to have answers to Psyspam, Volt Switch, and to a lesser extent Kartana/Serp in grassy. Things like Seismitoad need to be brought. Cresselia, berry Magearna.
:pelipper::swampert-mega::manaphy::charizard-mega-y::heatran::victini: Weather requires you to ideally have two dedicated fire/water resists, as well as generally disincentivizing passivity due to Manaphy and Heatran becoming near unstopable in their respective weather.
:ferrothorn::skarmory::greninja::greninja-ash: Spikes are omnipresent nowadays, Ferrothorn in particular seems to pick up a lot of usage. You basically need your entire team to be able to hit it or have some dedicated removal thats ideally immune to leech. Ridiculous requirement.
:Tornadus-Therian: This mon requires a unique type of answer since it needs a flying resist that doesnt really mind Knock Off. It invalidates team structures using stuff like Steela, Skarmory, or even Bronzong as their flying resist.
:kommo-o: You better bring a fairy! But thats easy right? Theres no way a good team couldnt fit a fai..
2GV0Z8J.png
.
:gliscor: SD Gliscor has fallen in popularity but don't worry because you still have to respect it in teambuilding on the off-chance he does show up. Need to play either offense or recover mon with ice move strong enough to kill it.
:volcarona::dragonite::Hawlucha::magearna::gyarados::gyarados-Mega: A variety of dangerous sweepers all requiring their own unique answer.
:kyurem-black::charizard-mega-x::kartana::garchomp::landorus-therian::hoopa-unbound::mawile-mega::medicham-mega: Ridiculous standalone breakers plague this tier, some more managable than others.
:scizor-mega::reuniclus::cresselia::clefable::latias-mega: Bulky win conditions also each requiring their own answer.

And I am sure many more, which I couldnt think of on the spot.

Which brings us to the heart of the issue, namely that this tier is in need for some tiering action centralizing the metagame more around a few key threats & answers to them. However, the SM council is so dead that none of them are playing in SPL or even participating whatsoever. When I made my post about a Landorus-Incarnate test my dear teammate Star had privately told me that they do not wish to make a change that large in SM. Not that the mon would be too strong for the tier. No argument about it negatively affecting x or y. Just change = bad. Here's the screenshot. To me this complacency doesn't make a whole lot of sense, nor does it make a lot of sense for Star to decide the future of a tier he does not play. My thread later got locked by Star despite garnering a fair bit of interest from the general playerbase because it "failed to stay active". The fact that Lando-I is allowed to remain quickbanned despite Cresselia and Mega Latias being introduced to the tier at a later date is a disgrace. Either way, Lando-I is not the only mon that could get retested. Things like Mega-Metagross, Pheromosa, Zygarde, Aegislash are all good candidates for centralizing the meta more around themselves and counters to them. Unfortunately none of that will ever happen as long as the decission makers for this tier decide that change is bad because its change. The only way this could improve would be for the playerbase to demand better from them.
It is crazy to me that you would still forget that the council you are a part of gave their opinion while it was active on the mons you advocate for a deban and it was not just Star’s or the old heads opinion. 3 of the mons cited were tested in smpl by active players. Metagross was clearly a bad choice since the pokemon can use all terrains (you said yourself it terrain is a huge constraint) to its advantage and warp the meta completely. Aegislash resulted in a meta even more offense/weather oriented than what we have rn with either another pokemon in psyspam or weather war and was deemed as an unfit choice to bring in the meta. As for Lando I giving us mons that can counter it is not a sign of such pokemon to be balanced, you introduce another threat to an already constrained meta. The counters you cite in Cresselia and latias are both highly punishable and if lando-I forces us to bring such mons everygame to just not get swamped (aka the only solution is a fat levitate) it would warp the meta into an unhealthy dynamic : countering lando i and then countering fat levitates leaving you unable to counter the rest. For pheromosa and zygarde yes I think you are trolling, a quiver dance monster and a glare bot that has no switch...they would not be just centralizing, it is quite visible.

I don’t think searching for a new pokemon to centralize the meta is a good solution because it will only lead to unhealthy interactions and crazy warping. We already have so much to cover. And also because players are good at finding structures that make such mons unbearable threats and just toxic to face. We already have examples of such behavior with old pokemons such as Dragonite seeing usage in offense as well as bulkier teams and becoming unforgiving to old structures. Removing obnoxious Pokemon that lack reliable counterplay and contribute nothing to the tier beyond functioning as a nuke button is far more reasonable. Manaphy is the clearest example. It’s one of the main reasons Latias balance barely exists: those teams already struggle into hyper offense and weather, and Manaphy pushes them over the edge. This forces awkward, unhealthy adaptations, like running Calm Mind + Thunder on Latias (and lose into the rest), or simply conceding the matchup altogether, since Manaphy reliably breaks past Pex or Ferrothorn and, in doing so, completely dismantles the team’s defensive backbone.

As one player opinions does not reflect all of the sm community, a survey will be conducted at the end of SPL to gather opinions on the tier and potential suspects : Manaphy, Landorus I, Metagross or other wishes. Players concerned will be SPL ones with more than five games this season, circuit championship qualified players and circuit tours winners.
One thing I agree with you on (well two) is how the council is out of date and would need new blood and actual people that are active in the tier. We asked if it was possible to refresh it but as long as no new changes are required or asked massively by the community, we got told it would be a waste of time. We will see how the survey unfolds and what is next for smou.

edit: I just want to add that gathering usage from all of 2025 main tournaments lead to realize how much of this tier need repair with overspammed teams and crazy winrate (the tours included are all of circuit, SPL, Masters, Wcup, OUPL and SMPL). Weather was never as strong as it is a way to counter Psyspam, fare well into other weathers and Hyper offense that sees a lot of usage all together, while Latias or Mawile teams completely disappeared (almost for latias but like it is sand) from the picture. (in total it is 605 replays for 2025 in that data)
1770456792027.png
 

Attachments

  • 1770456724866.png
    1770456724866.png
    395 KB · Views: 14
Last edited:
It is crazy to me that you would still forget that the council you are a part of gave their opinion while it was active on the mons you advocate for a deban and it was not just Star’s or the old heads opinion. 3 of the mons cited were tested in smpl by active players. Metagross was clearly a bad choice since the pokemon can use all terrains (you said yourself it terrain is a huge constraint) to its advantage and warp the meta completely. Aegislash resulted in a meta even more offense/weather oriented than what we have rn with either another pokemon in psyspam or weather war and was deemed as an unfit choice to bring in the meta. As for Lando I giving us mons that can counter it is not a sign of such pokemon to be balanced, you introduce another threat to an already constrained meta. The counters you site in Cresselia and latias are both highly punishable and if lando-I forces us to bring such mons everygame to just not get swamped (aka the only solution is a fat levitate) it would warp the meta into an unhealthy dynamic : countering lando i and then countering fat levitates leaving you unable to counter the rest. For pheromosa and zygarde yes I think you are trolling, a quiver dance monster and a glare bot that has no switch...they would not be just centralizing, it is quite visible.

I don’t think searching for a new pokemon to centralize the meta is a good solution because it will only lead to unhealthy interactions and crazy warping. We already have so much to cover. And also because players are good at finding structures that make such mons unbearable threats and just toxic to face. We already have examples of such behavior with old pokemons such as Dragonite seeing usage in offense as well as bulkier teams and becoming unforgiving to old structures. Removing obnoxious Pokemon that lack reliable counterplay and contribute nothing to the tier beyond functioning as a nuke button is far more reasonable. Manaphy is the clearest example. It’s one of the main reasons Latias balance barely exists: those teams already struggle into hyper offense and weather, and Manaphy pushes them over the edge. This forces awkward, unhealthy adaptations, like running Calm Mind + Thunder on Latias (and lose into the rest), or simply conceding the matchup altogether, since Manaphy reliably breaks past Pex or Ferrothorn and, in doing so, completely dismantles the team’s defensive backbone.

As one player opinions does not reflect all of the sm community, a survey will be lead at the end of SPL to gather opinions on the tier and potential suspects : Manaphy, Landorus I, Metagross or other wishes. Players concerned will be SPL ones with more than five games this season, circuit championship qualified players and circuit tours winners.
One thing I agree with you (well two) is how the council is out of date and would need new blood and actual people that are active in the tier. We asked if it was possible to refresh it but as long as no new changes are required or asked massively by the community, we got told it would be a waste of time. We will see how the survey unfolds and what is next for smou.

edit: I just want to add that gathering usage from all of 2025 main tournaments lead to realize how much of this tier need repair with overspammed teams and crazy winrate (the tours included are all of circuit, SPL, Masters, Wcup, OUPL and SMPL). Weather was never as strong as it is a way to counter Psyspam, fare well into other weathers and Hyper offense that sees a lot of usage all together, while Latias or Mawile teams completely disappeared (almost for latias but like it is sand) from the picture.
View attachment 806918
As far as unbans go, personally I think Lando-I would be the most reasonable re-introduction because its not only hard countered by the two mons I mentioned but also struggles with a lot of offense matchups, is weak to common moves like ice beam, knock off, scald, and terrible into Megazam since you die to sheer force psychic and then you are facing sheer force Megazam. I recommend going over some countermeasures I listed in my post here since most of it still holds true today. As for the other mons yes they would be metagame warping but thats the point. At the end of the day Zygarde existed in SM OU for a very long period of time without boasting an unreasonably high winrate. I dont know why you think it couldnt possibly be adapted to by the metagame. Pheromosa is honestly something I would personally keep banned but there have been shouts for it in the past so Ive included it as a potential option. Its not the most unreasonable suggestion.

Regarding bans, I think you're absolutely right that this is a viable route too. Maybe banning Toxic Spikes would be a positive change but good luck pushing through a "complex" ban in an old gen. If this route were chosen I'd probably start with Manaphy and Kyurem-Black, which fit the description of not having any counters, something we used to ban for.

At the end of the day I just believe that this tier could be very positively affected by tiering action in either direction, but due to its status as an old gen there is a lot of resistance to that for whatever reason.
 
Okay me personally I think SM OU is in a good place rn and doesn’t need action, Yes certain mons like Manaphy Tapu Lele Xard can be anoyying but every tier has their anoyying overpowered Pokemon, Idt banning or unbanning anything would help in the long term. Pokemon that got banned to Ubers got banned for a reason and mons like Lando I can tech Gravity or be Ran with Pursuit Pokemon to remove bad Matchups, Manaphy isn’t just some Toxic Pokemon it’s ment to weaken Balance structures so Rain can have a chance at breaking Toxapex Ferrothorn which it be very hard to do without because Breakers like Banded Crawdaunt are actually good in rain but less consistent because lack of recovery, beating Manaphy involves skill as ur better off getting rocks up and trying to kill Pelipper than Manaphy all u need is someone to ohko it like a Koko or Kartana
 
Back
Top