Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

I deleted my post 'cause I was thinking of a different tour, OST, for which anyone can sign up for, not SPL. I brainfarted.

As for my survey scores:

Enjoyment: 5
Competitiveness: 5
Tera Blast: 1
:Dragonite: 3
:Light_Clay: 3
:ogerpon_wellspring: 2
:Kyurem: 5
:Kingambit: 3
Write-ins: :ceruledge: (5. Extremely cheap mon when piloted right that too many people treat as an autowin button, resulting it being misplayed)

I'll make a larger post on why Tera Blast shouldn't be on future surveys later as it's a poison pill to more tiering action in SV OU.
 
Last edited:
I been laddering a bit actively in the past few months and been lingering around high ladder(high 1800s-1900s) and heres my thoughts.

Fun: 7
Laddering sometimes feels like a chore but there are times where you get some funny matches here and there.

Competitive: 4
I have seen people with like 60 GXE hit 1900s. there has been a point where I hit 1900s with some bs delphox webs team. Not saying there isn't some sort of skill in SV but its pretty Matchup fishy.


POKEMON

:dragonite: 3: i'm going to be honest about dragonite, even though it's set is very customizable(in terms of items, coverage and tera type) it's still a pretty telegraphed mon. even with its diverse movepool its always going to click dragon dance when it enters the field fresh. at this point I think most teams should have a way of dealing with a +1 dragonite, dnite is still slower than most scarfers so any scarfer with trick(ghold, meow for example) or a scarfer that can hit it for super effective(like enam) or even booster mons like Iron valiant with encore can stop dnite from sweeping. theres also defensive counter play like Iron defense corviknight, foul play pecharunt and mandibuzz, toxic gliscor, tickle alomomola,zapdos,moltres, whirlwind skarmory, ting lu which is definitely splashable on more fat balance teams. you also have your own tera so you can flip the match up against dnite with mons that would usually fold to dnite like tera flying ttar, Iron defense zama, gweez etc. I said before that dnite is very customizable with its sets but tbh most of the time when you load a ladder game dnite is either going to be its regular ekiller set or tera blast flying most of the time cuz that's its most consistent purposes. There is also bulky dtail dnite but that's obviously not a problem as its pretty easy to identify(only used on Hstack) and used for defensive purposes. you're not running into tera ghost encore dnite or freaking covert cloak or sub roost dd consistently, maybe like once or twice in a while at max. or maybe you run into the same guy spamming the set on ladder multiple times but you should learn their habits at this point. Theres a reason why most of the cheesy dnite sets you ran into once dwelled down a bit and thats because they're super MU fishes and inconsistent. Although I will admit tera blast flying and fairy sets are a bitch to deal with thats mainly why I gave this thing a 3. tera blast flying is a good mid ground into everything and hits really freaking hard(2x flying stab with no immunity who would have thought) 2 dds and you're probably fucked unless you have a resist like the birds or something. tera blast fairy is the least popular of the top 2 dnite tera blast types but damn its still one of the most annoying tera types to face on any type of physical attacker, not just dnite.

:kyurem: 1: people need to stop fearmongering about kyurem in the builder in the ferocious year of 2026. This thing is super hazard weak, has barely any defensive utility, speed is kinda mid, and if it gets it item knocked off its basically sack fodder for the rest of the game. it's not going to snowball teams unless you're running into fat balance with no ice resist and torn as its fastest mon. obviously with the right structure built around kyurem(blimax fat or the double hazard removal teams with hatt+tusk/treads & torn) Kyurem is going to cook, but against faster pace teams like HO & offense kyurem is not going to have the breathing space to do the wallbreaking. I gave this thing a 1 because I hate the freeze status but thats about it. nowadays most kyurem are either Never-melt-ice freezey dry icicle spear earth power(best kyurem set currently imo) or subtect(mid set imo, very easy to just sit on) or AV Kyurem(ngl decent trader not as mickey as I thought) . tera blast dd kyurem sets fell off because Kyurem is outclassed as a tera abuser by dragonite,kingambit,zamazenta, etc. all mons that are much more reliable wincons when they tera. if you tera fire/electric trying to catch a mola/molt/corv lacking you're just getting by eq straight up. Specs is less popular nowadays, its still fine but you have to dedicate a whole team for it. there is also sub dd sets but those are super mu fishy & inconsistent. sub flash cannon tera steel kyurem has also been a thing to bypass fairies while not being weak to hazard which is not bad. Kyurem has had some cool set developments but none of them really stand out as "overbearing" or a significant problem to me and the 4 things I said in the start of this paragraph.

:ogerpon-wellspring: 3: Woger is probably one of the only potential suspect mons here that has the best midground into most mons in the tier, Ivy cudgel+knock off is enough to cripple most checks in the long term especially when this is paired with hazard stacking teams. SD sets are still strong and trailblaze I was dissing at first but I seen it put in work and it changed my mind kinda. I did go on this forum defending Ogerpon-wellspring being balanced previously in this thread and althought I respect wogerpon a bit more I still stand on the fact thats its fine for the tier. at this point most teams just build their teams to not be woger weak instead of finding ways to directly counter woger(cuz you can't really completely wall/counter this thing outside of unmons like amoognus and toxicroak). most grass types are pretty reliable in checking woger(hydrapple,tealpon,rilla even opposing wogers in a way) and then you just pair it with something to punish contact moves(moltres zapdos for example) so it doesnt just spam u-turn on your grass types brainlessly. similar to most physical attackers woger can lose to the foul play demons(pech, mandi) theres also a decent amount of stuff that can live a cudgel without resist and can hit it back hard(kingambit is the first that comes to mind) theres also dragons like dnite,bolt etc which can check non play rough dnite. theres also priority users like lokix, and even gambit and bolt(given its not encore) can revenge kill pon. even most of the mons that woger usually switches into has tech to play around it. mola can fish for body slam paras, ting lu ruination leaves woger at like 50%, CC tusk with rocks up can KO woger after rapid spinning on the switch. I think woger is this generations Kartana where its a really strong mon but not broken or ubers worthy. The meta has done a decent job of adapting to woger.

:light-clay: 2: literally any team with a knocker can just knock the screen setters light clay to cut off the turns. you can also gets hazards up to cripple the set up sweepers on switch. `the thing with screens deo is that it kinda just lets mons immune to taunt like ghold set up nasty plots and just cripple the set up sweeper trying to switch in. and the counter play to set up sweepers kinda doesn't change regardless of screens encore, phasing, trick, etc can still distrupt set up sweepers and waste screen turns. obviously screens are still obnoxious to play against and tera ghost adamant LO ceruledge isn't fun to play against(that shit can 0hko most attackers with just shadow sneak) but if you dont play like a bot and play proactively(not letting something like gmoltres gettting a whole agility+a nasty plot all at once for free) you should be fine against screens. theres decent anti screen stuff like infiltrator pult, scarf rai(rai in general is just pretty good into screens as well),gholdengo, and like I said before the encores the tricks etc still work against screen teams. you can even remove screens with defog and court change(althought you can potentially give free turns to set up but if you're in a good position you can pull this off. Theres also ninetales and grimmsnarl but those two are fringe mons for a reason so i'm not going to waste time explaining their flaws.

:kingambit: 4: Tera is literally the only reason why kingambit is fucking stupid, otherwise this thing would be like an A- mon at best. imo its the tera abuser in the game. tera ghost sets can 1v1 checks like ID zama & body press corv & great tusk and can beat espeed dnite. Tera blast fairy is the main demon though because thats the tera set that completely invalidates any fighting type as checks. tusk, valiant, zama, dnite, raging bolt all evaporated by tera blast fairy. There is also tera fire & tera flying which can counter any burn-counter play or ground moves completely. So yea you probably understand my sentiment on this thing because you can be playing bad the entire game but can easily clutch with a healthy non tera burnt kingambit which is so ridiculous. i'm not exactly super super eager on a kingambit ban but im acknowledges how tera takes this thing to next levels of stupid. though kingambit still has valid counterplay, I probably mentioned encore trick like a million times already but yea that, and also some tera gambit sets has some MU flaws. tera ghost will leave you vulnerable to dark types & foul play and tera fire will leave you prone to ground moves from tusk for example. tera fairy does lowkey also loses to gweezing but gweezing is a bum so its wtv. kingambit is also prone to lure in sets from mons its suppose to check like focus blast rai, focus blast gholdengo, low kick meow or weavile etc. Yea thats all I have to say about gambit for now.

Tera Blast 4:
as you figured from this post my sentiment is that tera blast is taking these already strong mons to a new level of stupidity. Another thing with tera blast is that I feel its used out of spite. like a mon clicking tera ground to bypass gholdengo or tera fairy to bypass tusk and zama or tera electric to bypass corviknight it just kinda pisses me off. giving up all the MUs their usually good at just to beat one mon that walls it out of spite like that so lame. there are cool teras out there but people pick the lame ones like tera fairy & electric which is like bro, be creative for once. I don't exactly want tera blast and I have seen some cool teras like tera fire, tera flying etc but I don't like how its being used rn. and yea its super MU fishy.

Write ins: :ceruledge: :mewtwo: :ho-oh:
most of these are just troll but seriously adamant LO ceruledge has been so strong recently I'm pretty surprised it didnt make the survey, so i'm just acknowledging it in the write in. lowkey though if we all collectively agree to ignore the fact that Ho-oh has calm mind it can lowkey save the meta though!

okay but seriously that's all I have to write in this point have a nice day guys
 
Before I post my survey response, I recently uploaded a video on how to respond to Ogerpon-Wellspring that goes beyond the surface level counterplay. I also think this video would help players give better arguments to why Wellspring should or shouldn’t be banned rather than the back n’ forth

muh “big stall” or muh “no switch-ins” I see too often.


Anyways, here’s my survey response.

Enjoyment 8/Competitiveness 7: Hot take but this is the best state SV OU has been in since ever. Team building is still difficult but feels fun with all the experimentation that can be done. Even after over 2 years of SV, the tier is constantly innovating and remaining fresh. Gen 9 is fast-paced and technical, but not to the point where there isn’t room for slower games. Every main archetype feels equally viable (except Stall, that’s ass but only because there’s too many team comps that can burst through or outlast Stall) and the mons that kept entering the meta helped stray the tier away from being a MU fishy hellscape it was in previous metas. These days its actually better to build a well-rounded team rather than MU fish your opponent, which is a sign that we’re in the step in the right direction.

:dragonite:/tera blast: 3
Dragonite isn’t much of an issue these days, but the set variety it holds and lack of overlap with checks makes it a nuisance in the builder. But that issue can be contributed to Tera Blast, which was responsible for making a few other Pokemon into problems like Volcarona who checked a bunch of things while it was legal. I don’t want Dnite to forgo the same fate, so suspecting Tera Blast would be the only other option. Dnite is much more manageable when it can’t Tera Blast Flying the Zamazenta in front of it.

Light Clay: 1
Nah lol. The screens/Ceruledge scare is incredibly overblown. Countering screens is no different from countering any other HO structure, except now you’re trying to limit the amount of times screens go up. Anti-offense measures like Ting-Lu, Bulky Dnite, Pult, Roar Zama, Garg, and CB Tealpon are still perfectly good here. As mentioned in a previous post, Screens has seen a slight down turn recently during the SPL season and its not cuz of players overprepping for it.

AcrOne brought a standard Treads/Pech/Kyu comp which doesn’t utterly trash Screens.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-906434

But he played the MU well by leading with Treads for the crucial Knock + Rocks, and making good callouts (ex: swapping into Zapdos on the Tera Fairy Goltres forcing it to stay in and eat a T-Wave)

:kyurem:: 2
Freeze is the dumbest shit in the world. Outside of that, Kyurem is fine. DD sets rely on Loaded Dice and Tera, AV and Specs are the best sets, Subtect is an overrated set that pretends to 6-0 Balance, only to get 1v1d by Ting-Lu.

:ogerpon_wellspring:: 2
Shocking take from me but I think Ogerpon Wellspring is fine. There’s not many safe switch-ins, but there’s plenty of Pokemon who can come in to tank an Ivy Cudgel and scare it out or 1v1 it. Tornadus, Zapdos, Weezing, Corv, Physdef Balloon Dengo, etc are some examples.

The big achilles heel however is the U-Turn weakness. Weaker U-Turns deal over a quarter of Wellspring’s HP while stronger U-Turns from pivots like Cinderace or CB Pult can straight up take it out with enough chip. Being weak to U-Turn is terrible for a somewhat frail offensive threat, because you don’t wanna stay in on anything with U-Turn that can outspeed or tank you.

Remember that Wellspring’s role is that of a wallbreaker. By nature it doesn’t have many consistent switch-ins apart from stuff like Pech or Dnite, but you can limit its opportunities through good positioning and I believe its healthy in that role.

:kingambit:: 1
Gambit has had a baller run in SPL. Is history repeating itself? Is another Dark type gonna get banned? Nah, it’s just Gambit doing its usual schtick. Stuff like Wisp Rai and Scarf Ghold can force it in to get crippled. Zama is still a fine check, and if you’re worried about it being Tera Fairy, you could always Terastilize as a midground. You could force it to take chip early on with hazards, helmet chip, or Kyurem so it doesn’t 1v1 Ironpress Zama with Tera Ghost. You could force a Tera with Tusk and go into something like a Darkrai that punishes the Tera afterwards, or you can lock it into Sucker/SD with Encore. Gambit has several Tera types that can swing the game in its favor, but there are midground plays that could be done to prevent a Gambit lategame sweep.
 
enjoyment: 6
since last survey we've been through a bit of a teambuilding renaissance with a lot of really cool teams popping up, but at the same time the actual meta itself has gotten kind of stale. partially that's the consequence of being in the same gen for longer than the usual three years and partially it's because i keep running into bots on ladder, neither of those are really anyone's fault, but the meta is also starting to revolve more and more around bullshit and it's hard to enjoy myself when i'm constantly fighting bullshit, especially bullshit that should've been banned ages ago

competitiveness: 4
aside from the usual nonsense that's plagued this tier for years now, screens are getting to be a problem again. i really don't like the new flavors of cheese that are popping up because of it

:dragonite:: 3
i think it's fallen off marginally since that point where everyone and their mother was talking about a suspect. i was on the fence about it then and voted 4 more because i was in support of a suspect than because i thought it broken. since then, the pace of "oh hey some new dumb dragonite set is going around" has decreased to the point where i no longer consider dragonite a high priority

:light clay:: 5
screens have never seemed to occupy an actually healthy place in svou. it's either you don't see them at all, or you see them everywhere and they're enabling some stupid cheese like cyclizar espathra setup spam or veiltales baxcalibur or monoclaw. at a certain point we have to recognize that there's one common thread here and do something to address it. action on light clay would mitigate the most unhealthy effects of screens, not enough to unban any of the shit it's historically enabled, but perhaps enough to avoid action on a couple things it's enabling today

:kyurem:: 3
same shit different day. it's stupid, it shouldn't be here, what happened after the second suspect was bullshit, but it's less problematic than other stuff right now

:ogerpon-wellspring:: 5
the loyal three did nothing wrong

tera blast: 2
i don't particularly have a dog in this race, i think we could build a great meta with or without tera blast. i don't really consider it uncompetitive or particularly broken, but it does make a lot of offensive threats more versatile and unpredictable than they ought to be. what i'm most concerned about is the scenario where tera blast gets banned, we get greedy and unban a bunch of shit that's still broken, and they get stockholm-syndromed into the tier forever like gambit. i will only support a tera blast ban if it's made explicitly clear that the only action taken as a result will be an unban of regieleki and a resuspect of volcarona. no gouging fire, no roaring moon, no espathra or any of the other bullshit that people are going to be clamoring for. if there's even the slightest possibility of anything dropping besides eleki and maybe volc, it's a hard no from me

:kingambit:: 5
with god as my witness i will see this thing banned before the gen closes out. i don't care if i have to organize another likeshop effort or bribe someone or digitize myself like tron and go into the games and drive kingambit to extinction, i will find a fucking way

anything else: gholdengo, terapagos clause (i'm not giving up), freeze clause
 
40kultra said:
:kingambit: 4: Tera is literally the only reason why kingambit is fucking stupid, otherwise this thing would be like an A- mon at best. imo its the tera abuser in the game. tera ghost sets can 1v1 checks like ID zama & body press corv & great tusk and can beat espeed dnite. Tera blast fairy is the main demon though because thats the tera set that completely invalidates any fighting type as checks. tusk, valiant, zama, dnite, raging bolt all evaporated by tera blast fairy. There is also tera fire & tera flying which can counter any burn-counter play or ground moves completely. So yea you probably understand my sentiment on this thing because you can be playing bad the entire game but can easily clutch with a healthy non tera burnt kingambit which is so ridiculous. i'm not exactly super super eager on a kingambit ban but im acknowledges how tera takes this thing to next levels of stupid. though kingambit still has valid counterplay, I probably mentioned encore trick like a million times already but yea that, and also some tera gambit sets has some MU flaws. tera ghost will leave you vulnerable to dark types & foul play and tera fire will leave you prone to ground moves from tusk for example. tera fairy does lowkey also loses to gweezing but gweezing is a bum so its wtv. kingambit is also prone to lure in sets from mons its suppose to check like focus blast rai, focus blast gholdengo, low kick meow or weavile etc. Yea thats all I have to say about gambit for now.
Click to expand...
At least in my experience this is the most manageable mon of all the 4 mentioned on the survey. Encore completely ruins it and it's reliance on Sucker Punch to threaten faster pokemon makes it easier to play around that Kyurem, Dragonite and Wellspring. You have a lot of checks in H-Samurott, Iron Valiant, Great Tusk, Encore Wellspring, Dragonite, Zamazenta, Moltres, Cinderace, Trick users like Darkrai or Gholdengo and the list goes on and on. Sure, Kingambit is still Kingambit, but it is more exploitable in different ways and the meta adapted well to it.
 
Eviolite Bisharp said:
Encore completely ruins it
Click to expand...
Just wait until he learns of the sheist mental herb gambit......

but yeah uh

Fun: 6
Competitive: 3 (sorry, some of the shit in this tier prevents me from putting higher)

:dragonite:: 2
:light clay:: 5
Tera Blast: 5
:Ogerpon-Wellspring:: 4
:Kyurem:: 3
:kingambit:: 3

Write ins: :solgaleo:, freeze clause

Also :lugia: cuz we still pretending that knock off food is broken in big 2026? Imma just go to my ting lu and get up all 3 layers real quick
 
Last edited:
Eviolite Bisharp said:
At least in my experience this is the most manageable mon of all the 4 mentioned on the survey. Encore completely ruins it and it's reliance on Sucker Punch to threaten faster pokemon makes it easier to play around that Kyurem, Dragonite and Wellspring. You have a lot of checks in H-Samurott, Iron Valiant, Great Tusk, Encore Wellspring, Dragonite, Zamazenta, Moltres, Cinderace, Trick users like Darkrai or Gholdengo and the list goes on and on. Sure, Kingambit is still Kingambit, but it is more exploitable in different ways and the meta adapted well to it.
Click to expand...
ik kingambit is managable. i'm not seriously argument for a ban its just a resentment towards its use of tera.

JackRG said:
Also :lugia: cuz we still pretending that knock off food is broken in big 2026? Imma just go to my ting lu and get up all 3 layers real quick
Click to expand...
Lugia OU talks in ferocious 2026 have we not learned our lesson yet?
 
Last edited:
Enjoyment: 6
Competitiveness: 5

:Dragonite: 2 Literally only controversial cause of tera blast, but even then those sets do need proper resource management. Tblast flying/fairy can be dumb at times (tblast ghost is donkey), but its mostly fine threat.
:light clay: 3 Screens are a bit dumb and I wouldn't mourn their downfall tbh. There are answers to it, but it does kinda constrain the builder a bit.
:tera blast: 5 Tblast is a dumbass move and I will stand by that. Mu fishy move at best and a move that flips pokemons usual counters and allows for full sweeps that usually never can happen. Difference between tera and tera blast is that tera has a lot of defensive applications while tera blast is purely offensive.
:ogerpon wellspring: 5 I've been seeing people say "Oh, we have answers to waterpon, so its fine" and I feel like thats missing the forest for the trees. The primary issue with waterpon currently is that you have to dedicate a lot of resources to beat it, and thus make yourself weaker to other things. The reason why balance feels so trash rn is because dealing with something like waterpon+ceru is almost impossible, since these wallbreakers require multiple mons, and if you can account for them, you prob are losing to some other shit like bolt or dnite. Now, why not banning ceru? Well, ceru is a fine pokemon otherwise, and waterpon is already toeing the line of brokeness. And thus, a waterpon ban makes sense.
:kyurem: 1 I have found peace with kyurem. Can be a bit dumb in builder but as sets go more support focused (like AV), its becoming easier to deal with.
:kingambit: 1 Lol no. Completely fine mon aside from the rare tblast fairy and even that is mostly fine.
 
Enjoyment: 7
I've been having fun with this generation's meta lately. There are always going to be bland sets every now and then but I really love some of the niche sets I've tested.

Competitiveness: 5
There's always gonna be some random bullshit every five games. I've accepted that it's inevitable.

:dragonite: 2
Effective but also easy to check. Its only problematic set is Tera Blast but even then it's really not that broken.

:light_clay: 2
Screens are annoying, but there are plenty of ways to beat it and I don't see it as a problem.

Tera Blast: 2
It makes no sense to ban what makes this generation unique. I'm well aware of certain sets that can abuse it to an extreme, but if you use your brain you can play around it.

:ogerpon_wellspring: 4
Wogerpon is one of few mons that I think can become nearly unwallable even if you actively try to counter it. It comes across as a problem for several teams I've built lately and I'm not sure if it's because I'm bad or if Wogerpon's just that strong.

:kyurem: 1
Has plenty of counters and really isn't an issue, especially considering the support sets we've been getting recently.

:kingambit: 1
Similar to Dragonite in the way that it's strong but easy to check. Gambit is a staple of the OU meta and I don't see it going anywhere.
 
The expansion on my takes

I think i answered like 8 fun, 7 in competitive: This is probably my favorite OU tier i've ever play and i'm not even kidding. The creativity on teambuilding and archetypes this tier has is incredible, and a lot of interesting developments have reached this past few months when almost everything that was broken was banned, like the rise of Tyranitar and Sand in general. I'm also very fond of terastallization as a mechanic because it rewards meta knowledge in the same way as something like no team preview rewards meta knowledge in older tiers like ADV and DPP, althought i think we should restrict Tera Blast

Tera Blast 4: I don't have a lot to say here, im just not really fond of a glorified Hidden Power

:Dragonite: 4: Dragonite has overbearing set variety because you don't know which one of the sets it could be: Standard DD Espeed EQ Roost,standard with Ice Spinner instead of Roost, Encore Scale Shot, Tera Flying, Tera Fairy,Tera Ghost Tera Blast + Low Kick or god knows what other aberration. This mon is a nightmare to deal with both in the teambuilding and in the battle and i would be grateful if this thing leaves OU

:Kyurem: 3: There is always a Kyurem set that destroys a team, and this shit can pass over through it's checks with freezes, but every Kyurem has the same problems: extreme vulnerability to hazards in a metagame so hazard centric like SVOU, lack of defensive utility besides "checking" Wellspring and Dragonite, Specs sets are prediction reliant and DD sets have many more checks than the special variants. Still i don't love it having it in the tier, and i wouldn't mind if it's gone out of here

:ogerpon_wellspring: 2: Wellspring is really powerful and sometimes stupid as a wallbreaker, but it is very manageable on a ingame basis and are a lot of pokemon that can pivot around it in and apply instant pressure to it like Dragapult or Tornadus. Also one of the best pokemon in the tier, Pecharunt, is also one of the best and most splashable defensive answers to Wellspring in the tier, and the rise of Tealpon also helps, so i don't think it's broken

:kingambit: 2: We are in the year of lord 2026 and there are people who still can't deal with kingambit lol. I've already argumented my thoughts on Gambit so i will repeat them here: At least in my experience this is the most manageable mon of all the 4 mentioned on the survey. Encore completely ruins it and it's reliance on Sucker Punch to threaten faster pokemon makes it easier to play around that Kyurem, Dragonite and Wellspring. You have a lot of checks in H-Samurott, Iron Valiant, Great Tusk, Encore Wellspring, Dragonite, Zamazenta, Moltres, Cinderace, Trick users like Darkrai or Gholdengo and the list goes on and on. Sure, Kingambit is still Kingambit, but it is more exploitable in different ways and the meta is well adapted to it. I also have to mention that while Tera allows it to pass through checks, it also makes it vulnerable to many priority moves: Tera Fairy makes it vulnerable to Scizor's Bullet Punch, Tera Flying turns it into Raging Bolt food and Tera Ghost makes it vulnerable to opposing Kingambits and other Sucker Punch users like Cinderace or Shadow Sneak users like IVal or Ceruledge

:light_clay: 5 (althought i have to admit a lot of bias here): Screens do a lot of stupid shit like enabling Ceruledge to an unhealthy degree. I'm mainly a detractor of Deoxys-S because of the limited counterplay, but i think that Light Clay will solve the root problem of too much reward for too little risk. A lot of teams are forced to run things like Dragapult (don't get me wrong, Pult is a great mon, but it's not something that you splash on every team) in order to deal with HO and i think that the meta would be better without 8 turn damage reduction

I also forgot to write in :ceruledge:, which is a stupid braindead mon that basically can win entire games on the spot. Even if there is a check there is almost nothing that Ceruledge can't overpower with a +2 Life Orb Tera Ghost Poltergeist
 
Last edited:
Fun: 7
Competitiveness: 7
Light Clay: 3 (I'm an offense fan, I'm not a HYPER offense fan. I'd be open to suspecting this)
Dragonite / Kyurem / Wogerpon / Gambit: 1
Tera Blast: Minus infinite, please please please I beg you leave this move alone

Write ins: Solgaleo, Volcarona, Alomomola.

Won't elaborate, my SV OU play is sloppy rn
 
Enjoy: 8
Compet: 5 (we really need open tera)
Tera Blast: 3
:Dragonite: 4 (its been a problem for a while now but tera fairy and flying are simply stupid, one of the mons that better use make of tera blast, remove either dnite or tb and the tier will improve)
:Light_Clay: 2 (a bit dumb ngl, but its not a priority in my opinion)
:ogerpon_wellspring: 3 (i think its a bit more tame lately, most teams have a couple of checks without thinking about her with dnite, pech, zama which are absolutely everywhere. Still hard to teambuild with wogerpon in mind but at the moment i think is not that problematic)
:Kyurem: 5 ( super broken, idk why we still pretend to think this thing is healthy, it destroys balance, its impossible to be prepared both in builder and in battle and freezing is really getting as stupid as kyurem itself)
:Kingambit: 4 ( i have always thought of gambit as a 3, a broken mon that glues the tier together, but the increase of the tera blast fairy set has made a difference, now i think its suspect test worthy)

Nominal: Gliscor, my eternal pain in the ass, i will fight forever to see this out of ou
 
Last edited:
Fun 10
Competitiveness 9 (although this is kinda difficult to evaluate, but it doesn't feel any more uncomp than other recent gens OU)
:dragonite: 3 - probably the only one i'd understand action towards
:light-clay: 1 - are we deadass
:ogerpon-wellspring: 2
:kyurem: 1
:kingambit: 1
Tera Blast 1
write-in mentions: unban pagos, ban wake (if only...), unban emojis on the smogon forum
 
I'm Tapu Bulu said:
Fun: 7
Competitiveness: 7
Light Clay: 3 (I'm an offense fan, I'm not a HYPER offense fan. I'd be open to suspecting this)
Dragonite / Kyurem / Wogerpon / Gambit: 1
Tera Blast: Minus infinite, please please please I beg you leave this move alone

Write ins: Solgaleo, Volcarona, Alomomola.

Won't elaborate, my SV OU play is sloppy rn
Click to expand...
While i do understand the Volcarona one, because of all the bans the moth was probably the least broken, i think that we should test Tera Blast before considering Volcarona

That being said i support everything that fucks up Kyurem so...

Delibird Heart said:
Fun 10
Competitiveness 9 (although this is kinda difficult to evaluate, but it doesn't feel any more uncomp than other recent gens OU)
:dragonite: 3 - probably the only one i'd understand action towards
:light-clay: 1 - are we deadass
:ogerpon-wellspring: 2
:kyurem: 1
:kingambit: 1
Tera Blast 1
write-in mentions: unban pagos, ban wake (if only...), unban emojis on the smogon forum
Click to expand...

The Terapagos unban would be a thing of beauty, but probably we won't see it until gen 9 has become an old gen, mainly because of tiering policy and Smogon being afraid of complex bans
 
Enjoyment: 7 The metagame is for the most part close to being as good as it could possibly be right now. All we need is to kill Dragonite and Tera Blast
Competitive: 6 While the metagame is somewhat enjoyable right now Tera introduces an objective cheese element that will probably always limit competitiveness, the only remedy would be to ban Tera Blast or ban Tera altogether but that second thing is never happening.
Dragonite: 5 kill this fat fucking piece of shit already
Light Clay: 2 I have no strong opinions on this. It's annoying to face but I do not find it particularly problematic especially compared to Dragonite or Tera Blast.
Kyurem: 2 the debate is over for the most part, it's staying
Ogerpon-W: 2 same thing as above, its Tera gimmick is annoying but this is far from the only and worst tera abuser
Tera Blast: 5 no fucking reason to keep this shit in the tier
Kingambit: 0 with satan as my witness i will see this thing kept in the tier before the gen closes out. i don't care if i have to prevent the organization of a fucking likeshop effort or bribe someone or digitize myself like tron and go into the forum and terminate daddybuzzwole's account myself, i will find a fucking way
 
Enjoyment 4
Competitivenes 6
Im mostly a casual Gen 9 fan but have grinded to 1800~1900 on a few alts and while i think the meta game is often times not enjoyable due to a heavy reliance on match up fish, wich is both a good and bad thing.

1 Dragonite: While i do think Dnite is VERY strong and can be very hard to deal with, it does get shut down by quite a few mons in the meta. Preaty much every team has a way to check it. It also dosent help that if he runs CB you often loose multiscale due to hazard stack meta, while boot loses power and can be prone to knock off on predict crippling him in the long run. While dnite only needs one good predict to snowball, i think he is overall well balanced

1 Ligth Clay: Why is this even hear?

2~3: Ogerpon W: Ok so Waterpon is weird cuz he CAN be cheked but more often than not it will deal crippling damage to the oposing team or provide a win condition. Regardless as of rigth now i dont think shes trully ban worthy due to there being enougph other threaths and it being locked to only tera water. This could change but as of rn i think pon is fine

2 Kyurem: Good mon, but this guys allready heavily crippled by missing certains moves (ROOOST) Tera and sub can make this guy a win con but he is very item dependant as without HDB this guy enteres crippled, and if u wana set up usually u run loaded dice. Regardless this guy CAN be a threath but is decently countered

3~5: Tera blast: Tera blast is weird cuz ive had streaches of time where it dosent appear and then ive had moments where EVERY GAME has a tera blast spamer. I think Tblast is a bit broken. But i dont particularly think it should be banned. I do think maybe suspect testing it could be good to appeace the disscusion but i think its 50/50.

5 Kingambit: GET THIS GUY OUT OF THE TIER, YES HE IS A SCRUB KILLER, YES HE FORCES 50/50, YES ONLY TERA MAKES HIM BROKEN, YES U CAN AVOID PUTTING YOURSELF IN THE POSITION, BUT HE IS JUST NOT HEALTHY. This guy is the master of reverse sweeping after your team is worn out and i js dont think giving HO a tool to ass blast you when its been a war of atrition is cool.

Write in: Unban Terapagos, Unban Shifu
 
I really wanna love Keldeo. Mon has access to a lot of nice tools like Taunt, strong STABs into common rockers like Glimmora or Lando-T, a great speed tier, Vacuum Wave to pick of Various foes, and Flip Turn. Namely, its MUs into Great Tusk and Kingambit are great, its Darkrai / Weavile MU isn't bad. That said, a few little things just add up to make its life in the meta really annoying.

1. Big Regen + Defensive mons
Big Regen is a massive pain in the ass for Keldeo. The quartet of Mola, Torn-T, Gking, and Hydrapple all match up incredibly well against it, and it feels at times there is little it can do to make progress there. Now, things aren't all doom and gloom here - Keldeo does have some great partners to help in these match-ups - Tyranitar, Weavile, Kingambit, Meowscarada, and Darkrai. But it does make it feel like a massive 50/50 on whether or not it can safely click its STABs, as giving these Pokemon ANY momentum is not good imo. Tera Ting-Lu, Garg, and Spdef Dozo are other notable MUs I find it will struggle vs. For reference, this is how much a MODEST Fist Plate boosted Secret Sword is doing to Ting-Lu.

252+ SpA Fist Plate Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 224-266 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Bear in mind, this is WITHOUT Tera. With Tera, the damage is even lesser, giving Ting-Lu ample time to do whatever tf it wants. Garganacl I think is an even worse MU, since that mon can start cursing up, spreading Salt Cure which 90% of Keldeo's partner's don't wanna take, etc. Keldeo itself can be a good answer to Garg fwiw with Covert Cloak, since Taunt largely shuts it down. Cloak also is nice in other MUs such as against Pecharunt, which Keldeo is also nuking for a decent amount damage and it might lure in, here and there.

252+ SpA Keldeo Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pecharunt: 178-211 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

Still, needing to waste an item slot on Cloak is a massive pain, esp since it'll notable weaken Keldeo's damage output w/ Secret Sword.

2. Awkward MUs against offensive mons.
Keldeo's MU against offensive mons is also a bit shaky. Now, I will preface by saying that I don't think Ogerpon-W completely shuts Keldeo down or anything. With the set I'm running (Modest Fist Plate). Keldeo is able to KO Ogerpon-W with the combination of Secret Sword and Vaccum Wave.

252+ SpA Fist Plate Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 211-249 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Fist Plate Keldeo Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 90-106 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

That said, Ogerpon-W making it a gamble to click Keldeo's STABs is annoying and there are multiple other Pokemon commonly found on offensive teams that can make it tricky to play with Keldeo. Raging Bolt, Iron Valiant, Zamazenta, and Dragapult are also able to outspeed Keldeo and threaten it in various ways. Keldeo's MU against Dragonite isn't entirely bad - you can at least Taunt it - but it is also another major annoyance. Most of the offensive meta outspeeding Keldeo is a big reason why I'm running Modest over Timid. You do miss out on a few key targets like Iron Crown, Hydreigon, Kyurem, and Garchomp, but you also retain a good speed tier to outpace key relevant threats like Samu-H, Ghold, Tusk, Gambit, etc.

3. 4MSS
This is more of an issue on my end, but I feel Keldeo wants too many moves. Taunt IMO is almost mandatroy in this metagame to just stop all the BS that Lu, Garg, Gweezing, etc. wants to do IN addition to stopping other hazard setters like Glimm, Lando-T, etc. as well as setup from Dragonite, Gambit, etc. Secret Sword and Surf are no brainers as STAB, and usually Keldeo would like to run one Vaccum Wave, Flip Turn, or another option like Tera Blast, Icy Wind, or Calm Mind in the last slot. IMO Vaccum Wave is extremely nice to have just because revenge killing Darkrai, Weavile, Gambit, and more is just so good. Additional coverage is quite tempting though, espicially when you look at the damage calcs.

252+ SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 144-170 (39.7 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 173-204 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 132-156 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 132-156 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 158-187 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 168-198 (52.9 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hydrapple: 316-376 (75.9 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hydrapple: 379-451 (91.1 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Tera Electric Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 115-137 (31.7 - 37.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Expert Belt Tera Electric Keldeo Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 252-298 (69.6 - 82.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Expert Belt Tera Electric Keldeo Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 20 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 262-310 (55 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Expert Belt Tera Electric Keldeo Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 324-382 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Tera Ghost Keldeo Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 194-230 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Expert Belt Tera Ghost Keldeo Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pecharunt: 384-454 (101 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Tera Electric Keldeo Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 276-326 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Running these options is pretty tempting, but you also are sacrificing some key flexibility without either Taunt or Vaccum Wave imo. Being a Tera Sink just to break also isn't too ideal imo. I don't think losing Flip Turn is all that big of a deal - it does make some interactions safer, but it also doesn't actually help Keldeo beat any of its critical poor MUs and can also be blocked by Ogerpon-W, which is rather common as a Keldeo check.

I kinda allude to it in my calcs, but a set worth exploring could be Expert Belt with Tera Blast Electric, Icy Wind, Secret Sword, Surf. If I recall correctly, this set was really good back in BW2 and I could see it still kicking ass with a good partner for anti-Gking support. Of course, Tera opp cost is certainly an issue, as is losing Taunt. Tera Blast Ghost sets are a tougher sell, since you become weak to a lot of mons you are suppose to check. I think you'd probably run something like Surf / Secret Sword / Vaccum Wave / TBGhold to still maintain decent MUs vs Darkrai, Weavile, and Gambit.

4. Conclusion
I think Keldeo is a good mon with a lot of room for exploration, but I find its flaws to be a bit difficult to overcome. Perhaps a new set, team comp, or some other kind of innovation is needed to make it a staple again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top