OU ADV OU Bans (ruleset change) discussion

[Zpanther]

I think your point was pretty clear, and this is exactly what I understood from it. Mine was that you side-stepped the argument of the poster (or any related argument) to argue a status quo position. What you have said is quite obvious to anyone who has been around the block a few times.

I chose not to respond to the commentary on e.g. Ken, Beagle, or Doom and focus on Kou and fighters who go from being Dug bait to more reliable answers to certain mons in the tier to suggest maybe you could dig more into that line of thinking to see that there is something appealing to it, even if you ultimately favor this tier.

I just don't think that the entire forum base has to respond intellectually dishonestly -- by arguing a point from a position of experience without regularly questioning one's principles. As you may well know, my philosophy is strongly informed by breaking everything I know and favor to craft a new approach. The only questions I'm asking in the builder when looking for a new direction are, "What have I missed?"; "What did 'X' player see when they built that team?"; and "How can I improve?", because no one knows everything, and the person who has a strong conviction without having challenged their understanding gets stuck peddaling stagnation.

I guess what I'm getting at is that my starting point is, "What if I'm wrong and they're right?", especially when it comes to a game/artform/subjective discussion like mons, and I fundamentally disagree that you don't have to engage with the perspectives with which you disagree, if for no other reason than that I have been wrong so many times, and I've learned so much incorporating that into my process.

“Why isn't Dugtrio banned? It's banned in every generation OU from 4-9, but not 3. Just a quick glance at OU and UUBL makes it clear that Dugtrio singlehandedly gatekeeps Raikou, Houndoom, Blaziken, Jynx, and arguably Smeargle from OU.”

how did I side step the argument? This is what he said. Basically that dug is the reason these pokemon aren’t OU. Which is just not true in the slightest. I’m not pushing for status quo. I constantly push for kou and registeel to be ou, I’m not a status quo guy at all. I straight up just don’t think dug is a problem in any way. And his point that it gatekeeps bls is just wrong. It’s not the only thing thst causes those pokemon issues. Is it because I ignored the “why is dug not banned” part? I think that’s pretty self explanatory and his reasoning that it gatekeeps things is missing the picture. Losing dug means we lose tons of very good team styles which would be worse for the metagame imo

 

[Pajama Sam]

We seem to be having this discussion all the time lately…

If Dugtrio has been in ADV for decades, there is no question its removal would change the game tremendously. This reason alone is enough of an argument against any action. Just ask the veterans - I believe the majority of them would be firmly against it. That said, at the same time, there are a few top pro players who actually do advocate for the ban of arena trap, which is interesting. I think it’s at least worth discussing somewhat because of this.

Personally, (as a complete non-pro ladder main), it does feel like the existence of arena trap in ADV is quite pathological, especially when considering all later generations where it’s banned. To be clear, this isn’t why I don’t like arena trap, I’m just skipping my personal argument in writing since it doesn’t matter much. I wouldn’t have any issue with it gone. But again, the game still feels pretty balanced around it. It doesn’t limit the fun of the game for me.

I’m basically just saying: even if some of us, myself included, dislike arena trap and make arguments against it - if everyone else has no issue (not really super clear to me though) and is happy with the game as is, let us not get distracted trying to start a war against arena trap in that case. The game is definitely very fun as is no matter what.

 

[Shitrock enjoyer]

I never really liked the argument that because something has been in the tier for so long it means it shouldn't be banned. That said, there are other better arguments for Dug's stay in the tier.

 

[derptrio idiot]

I was attracted to ADV because it was the last gen I played as a kid, buuuuut after finding out Dugtrio is banned in every later gen, I think I can live with the silly mon designs that turned me off to them. So I won't be playing ADV at least until Dugtrio goes the way of the speed pass dodo.

 

[pooballs]

I'm gonna have to weigh in here.... dugtrio is not op... is it "restrictive" in a sense, sure, but a lot of other pokemon are in this game. i understand the unique power of trapping and I also understand that "oh just DD with mence" isnt a real solution, but ive never felt that I lost because "dugtrio is op"

when it comes to lead dugtrio, all i can say is get a grip lol. maybe when we find out that softsand dug is better maybe i can think its op.
i will say that that my perspective is a based a lot on sacks, but if your team requires 5-6 mons to be up to win, then... idk. get dugged. (i dont even use the thing with any success.)

im 1200 elo peak so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[derptrio idiot]

I'm gonna have to weigh in here.... dugtrio is not op... is it "restrictive" in a sense, sure, but a lot of other pokemon are in this game. i understand the unique power of trapping and I also understand that "oh just DD with mence" isnt a real solution, but ive never felt that I lost because "dugtrio is op"

when it comes to lead dugtrio, all i can say is get a grip lol. maybe when we find out that softsand dug is better maybe i can think its op.
i will say that that my perspective is a based a lot on sacks, but if your team requires 5-6 mons to be up to win, then... idk. get dugged. (i dont even use the thing with any success.)

im 1200 elo peak so take it with a grain of salt.

I never said it was OP. Swagger didn't get banned because it was OP. It's annoying and trolly, and at least from my view its existence in the tier unduly restricts the teams you can build and the strategies you can use. IDK if you ever played MMOs but it reminds me of stunlocking Rogues in WoW and before it got fixed its defenders would just repeat the mantra "if you don't like Rogues don't play squishy toons". Well I liked squishies, just like I like a lot of the mons that Dugtrio gets to effortlessly remove from battle just for switching in to.

 

[pooballs]

I never said it was OP. Swagger didn't get banned because it was OP. It's annoying and trolly, and at least from my view its existence in the tier unduly restricts the teams you can build and the strategies you can use. IDK if you ever played MMOs but it reminds me of stunlocking Rogues in WoW and before it got fixed its defenders would just repeat the mantra "if you don't like Rogues don't play squishy toons". Well I liked squishies, just like I like a lot of the mons that Dugtrio gets to effortlessly remove from battle just for switching in to.

dugtrio isnt "annoying and trolly" its a staple of the meta in my opinion. it keeps sad strats in check too like hera in no sand, and forces blissey to be honest. i respect that u making ur opinion known im just saying i do not agree. i think dug adds depth to the game and the teambuilder even though it may feel kinda degen on the surface

i also like. dont use dug much. and most good dug teams are slower and i dislike slower teams. but i still think it has its place.. its a cb mon its -1

 

[derptrio idiot]

dugtrio isnt "annoying and trolly" its a staple of the meta in my opinion. it keeps sad strats in check too like hera in no sand, and forces blissey to be honest. i respect that u making ur opinion known im just saying i do not agree. i think dug adds depth to the game and the teambuilder even though it may feel kinda degen on the surface

i also like. dont use dug much. and most good dug teams are slower and i dislike slower teams. but i still think it has its place

So now I have to ask, why has ADV resisted banning it after gens 4-9 did a long time ago?

 

[Rambode]

So now I have to ask, why has ADV resisted banning it after gens 4-9 did a long time ago?

Less power creep and better ways to punish it in general. Dug doesn't enable stuff that's as broken as stuff from gens 4 onwards and it's pretty much obligated to run CB, making it way more punishable, while in other gens it has Life Orb to keep flexibility (and I think Sucker Punch too?)

 

[Spreek]

So now I have to ask, why has ADV resisted banning it after gens 4-9 did a long time ago?

ik this is bait but the lack of u-turn (and other pivoting moves other than bp which has fairly limited distribution) is a big reason.

 

[derptrio idiot]

ik this is bait but the lack of u-turn (and other pivoting moves other than bp which has fairly limited distribution) is a big reason.

No, you really lost me. All I know about gen4 is that Dugtrio is banned, the physical special split, and that there is a washing machine mon.

But I looked up U-turn and got confused because it gives Pokemon a way to potentially escape Dugtrio? How is gen3s lack of ways to escape Arena Trap an excuse not to ban it if later gens have more ways to escape but ban Arena Trap anyway?

 

[Rambode]

No, you really lost me. All I know about gen4 is that Dugtrio is banned, the physical special split, and that there is a washing machine mon.

But I looked up U-turn and got confused because it gives Pokemon a way to potentially escape Dugtrio? How is gen3s lack of ways to escape Arena Trap an excuse not to ban it if later gens have more ways to escape but ban Arena Trap anyway?

Mons rarely can u-turn away before dug can kill them (especially with sucker punch) and u-turn/volt switch just means another avenue for getting dug into the field safely AND chipping the target

 

[Siglut]

derptrio idiot there are about 1 million posts in this subforum and youtube videos discussing this exact topic if you would care to search for them. To play devil's advocate for a moment as I am personally in favor of at least a test of a dugtrio-free metagame, there is no need for an "excuse" to not ban something. Arena trap should only be banned if it is broken in adv with no regard for what other tiers are doing.

Also, pivot moves (such as uturn) are a benefit to dugtrio because if my tyranitar switches into jirachi when jirachi clicks u-turn (a typically risk-free move for jirachi) jirachi will both generate a free switch to dugtrio and chip my tyranitar into a range where it will die to earthquake. Also, there's not much point to "escaping" the trap because most mons can knock out dugtrio in one hit anyway.

I really recommend if you have any questions like this that don't contribute to an in-depth discussion of the metagame to confine them to the Beginner's Lounge or the ruleset and bans thread.

 

[LHF]

derptrio idiot there are about 1 million posts in this subforum and youtube videos discussing this exact topic if you would care to search for them. To play devil's advocate for a moment as I am personally in favor of at least a test of a dugtrio-free metagame, there is no need for an "excuse" to not ban something. Arena trap should only be banned if it is broken in adv with no regard for what other tiers are doing.

Also, pivot moves (such as uturn) are a benefit to dugtrio because if my tyranitar switches into jirachi when jirachi clicks u-turn (a typically risk-free move for jirachi) jirachi will both generate a free switch to dugtrio and chip my tyranitar into a range where it will die to earthquake. Also, there's not much point to "escaping" the trap because most mons can knock out dugtrio in one hit anyway.

I really recommend if you have any questions like this that don't contribute to an in-depth discussion of the metagame to confine them to the Beginner's Lounge or the ruleset and bans thread.

I hate to piggyback off what was such an already great post, but it inspired an additional point(which, I'm sorry for rambling, it's super late) that I feel would be helpful not just for derptrio but for anyone reading this):

Not all metagames are created equal, and the process of uncovering what the most playable version of a metagame is, is technically a never ending process. While yes it's true that a new wave of players/personalities may help influence this change(the rise of slop as a viable playstyle came about due to some fresh faces coming up with some strong ideas), in theory the exploration process of a meta, particularly one as deeply popular as ADV OU, is not quite ever finished as people will constantly try to find new ways to get the jump on their opponents. This will continue whether something gets banned every month, or whether nothing is ever banned again.

The circumstances that exist in one metagame that make one pokemon acceptable/tolerable to the playerbase at large may not exist in others. Metaphors, analogies or whatever else to other formats generally don't pan out to make any meaningful contribution to an argument. Every tier on this site, whether you like or dislike it, has its own identity and should be engaged with on those merits.

Anyway. I do not feel personally comfortable enough with high-level ADV OU at large to make a statement on if Dugtrio should or should not go. But I know that something I would advocate for in either case is a legitimate rationale that engages with ADV OU as it is.

Which leads me to the following:

Registeel and Raikou should rise to OU
Please drop Medicham lmao

Despite me not having any concrete opinion on a possible Dugtrio suspect, it is increasingly difficult for me to not see Raikou and Registeel as legitimate aspects of this tier. They see consistent usage in actual important matches, it is easy and straightforward to explain what they can offer a player on specific team structures, and while earlier suspicion of them being fads was certainly warranted, I think they have proven to have real staying power. I'm fine if people have some sort of "timetable" they want to put on the mons before they officially receive OU designation, but I think that the tier is at a point where that conversation makes sense to have.

To slightly disagree with you though I don't really see why Medicham should be falling back to UUBL after its rise 8 months ago. I think it's pretty clearly understood what Medicham offers the metagame - that being a high risk high reward lead that is able to cause major damage straight from the rip with careful prediction. But this also goes for the opposing player as well - the player fighting Medicham is in just as much danger of losing a mon as Medicham is of flopping in its role and dying without causing any real damage.

This sort of quality makes it better for specific scouts in tournament than laddering in my opinion, but that's beside the point. The mon would have to see a significant downturn in usage before I feel it's fair to cut him off at the knees.

 

[derptrio idiot]

I hate to piggyback off what was such an already great post, but it inspired an additional point(which, I'm sorry for rambling, it's super late) that I feel would be helpful not just for derptrio but for anyone reading this):

Not all metagames are created equal, and the process of uncovering what the most playable version of a metagame is, is technically a never ending process. While yes it's true that a new wave of players/personalities may help influence this change(the rise of slop as a viable playstyle came about due to some fresh faces coming up with some strong ideas), in theory the exploration process of a meta, particularly one as deeply popular as ADV OU, is not quite ever finished as people will constantly try to find new ways to get the jump on their opponents. This will continue whether something gets banned every month, or whether nothing is ever banned again.

The circumstances that exist in one metagame that make one pokemon acceptable/tolerable to the playerbase at large may not exist in others. Metaphors, analogies or whatever else to other formats generally don't pan out to make any meaningful contribution to an argument. Every tier on this site, whether you like or dislike it, has its own identity and should be engaged with on those merits.

Anyway. I do not feel personally comfortable enough with high-level ADV OU at large to make a statement on if Dugtrio should or should not go. But I know that something I would advocate for in either case is a legitimate rationale that engages with ADV OU as it is.

Which leads me to the following:



Despite me not having any concrete opinion on a possible Dugtrio suspect, it is increasingly difficult for me to not see Raikou and Registeel as legitimate aspects of this tier. They see consistent usage in actual important matches, it is easy and straightforward to explain what they can offer a player on specific team structures, and while earlier suspicion of them being fads was certainly warranted, I think they have proven to have real staying power. I'm fine if people have some sort of "timetable" they want to put on the mons before they officially receive OU designation, but I think that the tier is at a point where that conversation makes sense to have.

To slightly disagree with you though I don't really see why Medicham should be falling back to UUBL after its rise 8 months ago. I think it's pretty clearly understood what Medicham offers the metagame - that being a high risk high reward lead that is able to cause major damage straight from the rip with careful prediction. But this also goes for the opposing player as well - the player fighting Medicham is in just as much danger of losing a mon as Medicham is of flopping in its role and dying without causing any real damage.

This sort of quality makes it better for specific scouts in tournament than laddering in my opinion, but that's beside the point. The mon would have to see a significant downturn in usage before I feel it's fair to cut him off at the knees.

I'm not giving up yet. What follows are all of the reasons why I believe Dugtrio is overall bad for ADV, with examples;

• Dugtrio rewards bad prediction
My Medicham uses Shadow Ball when you were expecting a Focus Punch, so you switched into Gengar. Your Gengar goes down, but sending in Dugtrio next hands you the revenge kill, punishing my good play. As a bonus, Dugtrio also rewards poor Perish Trap plays.

• Dugtrio as lead rewards gambling and punishes creativity
This one should be obvious. A leading Dugtrio against leading Medicham or Breloom is effectively a 6v5. Against many other OU and BL leads without bulk the situation is the same. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most common leads are flying (Zapdos, Salamance, Skarmory). Most Tyranitar variants are susceptible to this as well, but in my experience lead Tyranitar usually have enough bulk to get the KO, and half the point of leading with Tyranitar is to get sand going anyway. With Dugtrio gone, you would likely see many novel and interesting lead strategies on the ladder.

• Power creep
Often in discussions on this topic, when the fact that Dugtrio is banned in every later gen OU is brought up, it is met with some mention of "power creep" in later gens that makes Dugtrio even more broken. Well at this point I'd like to point out that with the speedpass ban Dugtrio actually became even less escapable for many of its match ups. 373 speed is now impossible for anything in OU/BL slower than Scizor without access to Agility/Dragon Dance to obtain.

• Rapid what?
With two layers of spikes, Dugtrio can render Rapid Spin a virtual non-factor. If Tyranitar comes in to chase away your Gengar on two layers of spikes, defensive Gengar will live, but your Dugtrio will trap and KO even the bulky common 252HP Pursuit Tyranitar.

• Fire/Electric types
Go make a blank team in ADV OU. Look at the fire types in OU, and ask yourself what distinguishes them from the fire types in BL. Now, do the same for electric types. Again, I find it hard to believe that it's a coincidence that the only fire types in OU are flying, and that the electric types are in similar circumstances. Zapdos flies, Jolteon is fast enough to Baton Pass out of Arena Trap, and Magneton requires no explanation, although I would note that Dugtrio again rewards bad prediction in this case, as failing to read your opponents team and guess that there is a Magneton results in the loss of your Skarmory, but can be mitigated slightly with the virtually guaranteed revenge kill on Magneton.

• Neither Endure/Salac nor bulky builds are answers to this problem
While technically, yes, Endure/Salac can in some circumstances counter Dugtrio, sand renders it useless for anything not immune. As for bulk, no amount of bulk is saving Houndoom (just an example) from Dugtrio, and what exactly am I supposed to do with a bulky/physically defensive Jynx besides survive Dugtrio?

See, that last point is why I have such a strong suspicion that Dugtrio has an inordinate restrictive influence on the teams and strategies seen in ADV OU play, and that the differences would be immediately apparent upon testing. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong? Isn't it at least worth testing in isolation?

EDIT: I'm going to get ahead of a reply I'm anticipating, and that's "if Dugtrio leads are so strong, why aren't they more common?" It's a tail wagging the dog situation. If someone were to come up with an interesting and potent new lead line that was easily countered by just leading with Dugtrio, dollars to donuts I bet you'd see more Dugtrio leads in no time at all.

 

[Johnald]

I'm not giving up yet. What follows are all of the reasons why I believe Dugtrio is overall bad for ADV, with examples;

• Dugtrio rewards bad prediction
My Medicham uses Shadow Ball when you were expecting a Focus Punch, so you switched into Gengar. Your Gengar goes down, but sending in Dugtrio next hands you the revenge kill, punishing my good play. As a bonus, Dugtrio also rewards poor Perish Trap plays.

• Dugtrio as lead rewards gambling and punishes creativity
This one should be obvious. A leading Dugtrio against leading Medicham or Breloom is effectively a 6v5. Against many other OU and BL leads without bulk the situation is the same. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most common leads are flying (Zapdos, Salamance, Skarmory). Most Tyranitar variants are susceptible to this as well, but in my experience lead Tyranitar usually have enough bulk to get the KO, and half the point of leading with Tyranitar is to get sand going anyway. With Dugtrio gone, you would likely see many novel and interesting lead strategies on the ladder.

• Power creep
Often in discussions on this topic, when the fact that Dugtrio is banned in every later gen OU is brought up, it is met with some mention of "power creep" in later gens that makes Dugtrio even more broken. Well at this point I'd like to point out that with the speedpass ban Dugtrio actually became even less escapable for many of its match ups. 373 speed is now impossible for anything in OU/BL slower than Scizor without access to Agility/Dragon Dance to obtain.

• Rapid what?
With two layers of spikes, Dugtrio can render Rapid Spin a virtual non-factor. If Tyranitar comes in to chase away your Gengar on two layers of spikes, defensive Gengar will live, but your Dugtrio will trap and KO even the bulky common 252HP Pursuit Tyranitar.

• Fire/Electric types
Go make a blank team in ADV OU. Look at the fire types in OU, and ask yourself what distinguishes them from the fire types in BL. Now, do the same for electric types. Again, I find it hard to believe that it's a coincidence that the only fire types in OU are flying, and that the electric types are in similar circumstances. Zapdos flies, Jolteon is fast enough to Baton Pass out of Arena Trap, and Magneton requires no explanation, although I would note that Dugtrio again rewards bad prediction in this case, as failing to read your opponents team and guess that there is a Magneton results in the loss of your Skarmory, but can be mitigated slightly with the virtually guaranteed revenge kill on Magneton.

• Neither Endure/Salac nor bulky builds are answers to this problem
While technically, yes, Endure/Salac can in some circumstances counter Dugtrio, sand renders it useless for anything not immune. As for bulk, no amount of bulk is saving Houndoom (just an example) from Dugtrio, and what exactly am I supposed to do with a bulky/physically defensive Jynx besides survive Dugtrio?

See, that last point is why I have such a strong suspicion that Dugtrio has an inordinate restrictive influence on the teams and strategies seen in ADV OU play, and that the differences would be immediately apparent upon testing. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong? Isn't it at least worth testing in isolation?

EDIT: I'm going to get ahead of a reply I'm anticipating, and that's "if Dugtrio leads are so strong, why aren't they more common?" It's a tail wagging the dog situation. If someone were to come up with an interesting and potent new lead line that was easily countered by just leading with Dugtrio, dollars to donuts I bet you'd see more Dugtrio leads in no time at all.

• Dugtrio rewards bad prediction -
I think this scenario is more nuanced than you make it out to be. Was your play good if your Medicham was trapped by dugtrio after? You are only looking through the lens of a singular turn. You also need to consider the tempo cost of getting a revenge kill with Dugtrio. You now can switch something powerful in since dugtrio is locked into whatever move it picked.

• Dugtrio as lead rewards gambling and punishes creativity -
The examples you give are not the best.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 247-291 (94.2 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

An adamant dugtrio only kos a medicham with 0 bulk 62.5% of the time. Medicham can invest a few points into defense or hp to get this roll into their favor. Not to mention most dug leads will be switching out of medicham due to not being max attack.
A max attack adamant Dugtrio is either going to be too slow to counter faster frail leads like jynx or lack the bulk to live an earthquake from Tyrantiar.

While Breloom does die to dugtrio lead. You can easily use this to your advantage. Breloom is often paired with pursuit Tyranitar. The combination of mach punch into boosted pursuit (The dugtrio is locked into aerical ace) will KO the Dugtrio.

Most Pokémon that lead dugtrio matches up well into are themselves risky frail leads. Like Smeargle or Jynx.

The ladder record of 2036 was set with a bulky Tyranitar lead using counter that could OHKO Dugtrio. There are creative ways to punish a lead Dug.

• Rapid what? -
Nuance again here is important. Should a Tyranitar be clicking pursuit if there is a possibility for a dugtrio switch? Crunch covers a switch out and a stay in. There is also a big cost of running two frail Pokemon on a team such as Gengar and Dugtrio. Even in the scenario you described the Tyranitar has placed Gengar on extremely low hp and thanks to the choice lock, gained you tempo.

• Fire/Electric types -
I dont see this as an issue. No one is making posts to ban stealth rocks so they can use Articuno in gens 4-7s. Some Pokémon do poorly in certain metagames. I am not sure how much you play ADV, but you can make grounded fire/electric types work if you build your team right. Them not being seen as much in OU means they can be more effective due to the surprise factor.

I am a strong believer in restrictions being able to enhance or focus creativity rather than limit it.

Before you develop strong opinions on a metagame, I would highly suggest you attempt to understand it first.

 

[Jhall99]

• Dugtrio as lead rewards gambling and punishes creativity -
The examples you give are not the best.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 247-291 (94.2 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

An adamant dugtrio only kos a medicham with 0 bulk 62.5% of the time. Medicham can invest a few points into defense or hp to get this roll into their favor. Not to mention most dug leads will be switching out of medicham due to not being max attack.
A max attack adamant Dugtrio is either going to be too slow to counter faster frail leads like jynx or lack the bulk to live an earthquake from Tyrantiar.

While Breloom does die to dugtrio lead. You can easily use this to your advantage. Breloom is often paired with pursuit Tyranitar. The combination of mach punch into boosted pursuit (The dugtrio is locked into aerical ace) will KO the Dugtrio.

Most Pokémon that lead dugtrio matches up well into are themselves risky frail leads. Like Smeargle or Jynx.

The ladder record of 2036 was set with a bulky Tyranitar lead using counter that could OHKO Dugtrio. There are creative ways to punish a lead Dug.

Also the fact that Dug leads tend to be incredibly fishy, Yeah I get that ABR popularized this lead, but a lead dug means a free turn for Zapdos, Salamence, Skarmory (Could risk a Yolo Skarm), or Metagross that’s bulked out.

Even if Dug got something, it’s still a free turn afterwards. Dug is best put in the back once proper scouting is committed, think Adamant Dug has its place so long as you have strong answers to DD Tar.

 

[LHF]

You also need to consider the tempo cost of getting a revenge kill with Dugtrio. You now can switch something powerful in since dugtrio is locked into whatever move it picked.

This cannot be emphasized enough. Dugtrio is deeply exploitable once it's locked into a choice band click, and the player who was trapped is able to respond however they so choose while Dugtrio is likely to switch out and concede momentum.

Also, derptrio idiot, there's one point of the conversation I feel is prudent to respond to:

• Fire/Electric types
Go make a blank team in ADV OU. Look at the fire types in OU, and ask yourself what distinguishes them from the fire types in BL. Now, do the same for electric types. Again, I find it hard to believe that it's a coincidence that the only fire types in OU are flying, and that the electric types are in similar circumstances. Zapdos flies, Jolteon is fast enough to Baton Pass out of Arena Trap, and Magneton requires no explanation, although I would note that Dugtrio again rewards bad prediction in this case, as failing to read your opponents team and guess that there is a Magneton results in the loss of your Skarmory, but can be mitigated slightly with the virtually guaranteed revenge kill on Magneton.

We are not under any obligation to provide type diversity in a metagame. Flying(or ground immunity, aka levitate) is without a doubt an excellent property to have in ADV, and you are right to point that Moltres(and Zard by extension), Zapdos etc would be far worse off without that(1). But that does not mean we need to eliminate an otherwise established(and to this point, not proven indisputably unhealthy) part of the metagame in order to foster more additional variety in typings.

As a fun fact - did you know Gengar is the only Poison type in OU? Yet, as we know, the real value of Gengar's typing comes from its Ghost type and Levitate; if anything, Gengar really only appreciates its poison typing for being immune to Toxic clicks. The reason there aren't more Poison types in OU is simply because they can't hack it here. And that's OK, that's how the game works, and the only way more Poison types would show up in OU is if they found some consistent way to prove value in ADV OU matches over a long period of time(this is pretty unlikely though).

OverUsed is the most cutthroat format we have in terms of official usage. If you can't make it here, you're in a lower tier, and that's not the fault of the Pokemon that simply thrive in OU. (As an example - it's not Dugtrio's fault if Blaziken can't hack it.)

But this is the beauty of Smogon - if you really have an urge to play with a specific pokemon, there is definitely a format where your favorite is viable if it isn't in OverUsed.

As I said before, I'm not against being convinced that Dugtrio is broken. There's probably very good arguments to be made that it's overbearing, and I would expect that any pro-ban or pro-suspect argument would be coming at it from that angle(although I really am open to any that make sense). But it's certainly not an unaddressable Pokemon, both in the game and in the builder, by any means. Johnald gave a practical way for a Breloom team to eliminate a Dugtrio for example.

(1)This is also not getting into the subject that Raikou has seen a comeback in terms of meta usage and is a respectable pick on some ADV OU teams, despite currently being UUBL.

 

[vapicuno]

I would like Dugtrio tested but I don't know what's the best way. I think the metagame is heading in a direction I do not agree with.

Banning Dugtrio isn't just a marginal change. It would result in a significantly different metagame that we cannot really make predictions about based on our knowledge of the current metagame. For example, the stall archetype, which depends heavily on Dugtrio, will be entirely upended. And many offensive + defensive tools (think eg. fighters and pixies), which are heavily limited by the stall archetype, will be released into the wild and their own interactions will be difficult to predict. Who knows how the rest of the metagame will respond to that. So all these arguments about specifics kind of become moot.

Under the current Smogon tiering framework, which is tailored to rapidly changing current gens, there is also no way that a suspect in ADV will pass without any testing. Even if we go for past frameworks where showdown implemented temporary ladders with the suspected metagame changes, I doubt that will fly with ADVers. A few dugless tours will barely be enough to convince anyone who has seen this meta slowly evolve for 20 years.

Anyone who is familiar with the classic business case study of the film camera company Kodak which became too complacent with its success should see parallels with the supposedly vibrant metagame we have right now managed under a huge bureaucracy.

IMO we need to find a way to circumvent future dysfunction/staleness. We shouldn't need to wait till threads like "BW is a crummy metagame" appear as a wake-up call to explore alternatives when the player base has already started dwindling.

I don't know the answer and would appreciate suggestions. With a viable proposal we could bring it up to the Policy Review forum.

Cheers

 

[derptrio idiot]

This cannot be emphasized enough. Dugtrio is deeply exploitable once it's locked into a choice band click, and the player who was trapped is able to respond however they so choose while Dugtrio is likely to switch out and concede momentum.

Also, derptrio idiot, there's one point of the conversation I feel is prudent to respond to:

We are not under any obligation to provide type diversity in a metagame. Flying(or ground immunity, aka levitate) is without a doubt an excellent property to have in ADV, and you are right to point that Moltres(and Zard by extension), Zapdos etc would be far worse off without that(1). But that does not mean we need to eliminate an otherwise established(and to this point, not proven indisputably unhealthy) part of the metagame in order to foster more additional variety in typings.

As a fun fact - did you know Gengar is the only Poison type in OU? Yet, as we know, the real value of Gengar's typing comes from its Ghost type and Levitate; if anything, Gengar really only appreciates its poison typing for being immune to Toxic clicks. The reason there aren't more Poison types in OU is simply because they can't hack it here. And that's OK, that's how the game works, and the only way more Poison types would show up in OU is if they found some consistent way to prove value in ADV OU matches over a long period of time(this is pretty unlikely though).

OverUsed is the most cutthroat format we have in terms of official usage. If you can't make it here, you're in a lower tier, and that's not the fault of the Pokemon that simply thrive in OU. (As an example - it's not Dugtrio's fault if Blaziken can't hack it.)

But this is the beauty of Smogon - if you really have an urge to play with a specific pokemon, there is definitely a format where your favorite is viable if it isn't in OverUsed.

As I said before, I'm not against being convinced that Dugtrio is broken. There's probably very good arguments to be made that it's overbearing, and I would expect that any pro-ban or pro-suspect argument would be coming at it from that angle(although I really am open to any that make sense). But it's certainly not an unaddressable Pokemon, both in the game and in the builder, by any means. Johnald gave a practical way for a Breloom team to eliminate a Dugtrio for example.

(1)This is also not getting into the subject that Raikou has seen a comeback in terms of meta usage and is a respectable pick on some ADV OU teams, despite currently being UUBL.

Your mention of Gengar being the only poison type in OU goes right along with my point about fire and electric types. It's not about type diversity, that's not the point I was making. The point was that Dugtrio's influence on the format is out of proportion, and the fact that fire/electric and, as you pointed out, poison types, can't make it in OU unless they fly or levitate, is evidence of that. It's also why the lead game has mostly crystalized around flying types.

Raikou has absolutely no business being UU especially considering the popularity of Suicune. The only reason it's there is Dugtrio's ability to simply remove it from the match at will.

 

[FJ2K]

I would like Dugtrio tested but I don't know what's the best way. I think the metagame is heading in a direction I do not agree with.

Banning Dugtrio isn't just a marginal change. It would result in a significantly different metagame that we cannot really make predictions about based on our knowledge of the current metagame. For example, the stall archetype, which depends heavily on Dugtrio, will be entirely upended. And many offensive + defensive tools (think eg. fighters and pixies), which are heavily limited by the stall archetype, will be released into the wild and their own interactions will be difficult to predict. Who knows how the rest of the metagame will respond to that. So all these arguments about specifics kind of become moot.

Under the current Smogon tiering framework, which is tailored to rapidly changing current gens, there is also no way that a suspect in ADV will pass without any testing. Even if we go for past frameworks where showdown implemented temporary ladders with the suspected metagame changes, I doubt that will fly with ADVers. A few dugless tours will barely be enough to convince anyone who has seen this meta slowly evolve for 20 years.

Anyone who is familiar with the classic business case study of the film camera company Kodak which became too complacent with its success should see parallels with the supposedly vibrant metagame we have right now managed under a huge bureaucracy.

IMO we need to find a way to circumvent future dysfunction/staleness. We shouldn't need to wait till threads like "BW is a crummy metagame" appear as a wake-up call to explore alternatives when the player base has already started dwindling.

I don't know the answer and would appreciate suggestions. With a viable proposal we could bring it up to the Policy Review forum.

Cheers

Could you elaborate on your disapproval of where the meta is heading?

Back in 2024, I floated the idea of testing Dugtrio because I believe it to be a root cause of why top level ADV is so matchup dependent compared to other tiers. Unfortunately folk weren't ready for that conversation back then.

"Noob" "L2p" "postbox emoji" "I wouldn't buy green bananas if I were you". Much abuse was endured.

I think if players with good understanding of the meta give their reasoning on why a Dugtrio test is worth exploring , the discourse can take place in a productive manner.
Rather than the discourse being comprised entirely of Alttrio Idiot here ragebaiting for 2 weeks straight

 

[LHF]

Your mention of Gengar being the only poison type in OU goes right along with my point about fire and electric types. It's not about type diversity, that's not the point I was making.

I was willing to hear this out until I read

The point was that Dugtrio's influence on the format is out of proportion, and the fact that fire/electric and, as you pointed out, poison types, can't make it in OU unless they fly or levitate, is evidence of that.

This.
To say that poison types are not making it in OU because of Dugtrio shows a major lack of engagement with the meta. Poison types at large suffer from other negative attributes(psychic weakness, ground weakness, its stab being TERRIBLE into rock/ground, fully unable to touch the steel type - Skarm, Meta etc) which severely hinder them. And again, I'll repeat my previous point:

We are not under any obligation to help the metagame cater to any type. This is not just specific to ADV OU either. And while I hate breaking my rule of not bringing up other metas, consider that there are zero fire types in RBY OU(Starmie can farm pretty much all of them), and there are zero fire types in GSC OU(Charizard/Molt and I guess Typhlosion if you want to squint are the closes to viable of the UUBL fires and not even they are used). We could not care less about this, it just happens that healthy and acceptable metagames developed where fire type was not valued enough to be used. Everything has weaknesses, but overall strengths need to outbalance weaknesses competitive Pokemon, or else you're just voluntarily handicapping yourself which your opponent does not have to do.

What's good is good. We only worry about if a gameplay element is unhealthy toward the entire game. Attacking Dugtrio as a cause of a possible unhealthy meta is valid, but the reasoning you're providing is anything but.

 

[greenapricotttss]

derptrio idiot
Look brother,
Nidoking, Houndoom, and even Blaziken would not be OU- regardless of Dugtrio's presence.
& What Elec is Dug stopping from being OU, Electabuzz?? (Raikou is basically OU atp, as per community sentiment)

"It's a tail wagging the dog situation. If someone were to come up with an interesting and potent new lead line that was easily countered by just leading with Dugtrio, dollars to donuts I bet you'd see more Dugtrio leads in no time at all."

Just nooooo, I promise you any REASONABLE player of ADV knows leadDug can blank into as many things it can cancel. Idk why you treating Dugtrio like a S-tier Mon, are you not using subZap or ddMence? (at the very least)

 

[Blizihguh]

I would like Dugtrio tested but I don't know what's the best way. I think the metagame is heading in a direction I do not agree with.

Banning Dugtrio isn't just a marginal change. It would result in a significantly different metagame that we cannot really make predictions about based on our knowledge of the current metagame. For example, the stall archetype, which depends heavily on Dugtrio, will be entirely upended. And many offensive + defensive tools (think eg. fighters and pixies), which are heavily limited by the stall archetype, will be released into the wild and their own interactions will be difficult to predict. Who knows how the rest of the metagame will respond to that. So all these arguments about specifics kind of become moot.

Under the current Smogon tiering framework, which is tailored to rapidly changing current gens, there is also no way that a suspect in ADV will pass without any testing. Even if we go for past frameworks where showdown implemented temporary ladders with the suspected metagame changes, I doubt that will fly with ADVers. A few dugless tours will barely be enough to convince anyone who has seen this meta slowly evolve for 20 years.

Anyone who is familiar with the classic business case study of the film camera company Kodak which became too complacent with its success should see parallels with the supposedly vibrant metagame we have right now managed under a huge bureaucracy.

IMO we need to find a way to circumvent future dysfunction/staleness. We shouldn't need to wait till threads like "BW is a crummy metagame" appear as a wake-up call to explore alternatives when the player base has already started dwindling.

I don't know the answer and would appreciate suggestions. With a viable proposal we could bring it up to the Policy Review forum.

Cheers

I've gone on the record many times as thinking the Smogon bureaucracy is needlessly inefficient and sometimes willfully misguided, particularly in old gens. Of course, I'm not naive enough to think that these things came out of nowhere; upending everything is hard and there's no guarantee that any replacement system would be better. But yknow, I disagree with tiering decisions as much as the next guy! So I am motivated to see improvements in the system.

That being said: what is your actual complaint with the tier? The biggest barrier to change here is just that ADV is an extremely popular and diverse metagame. The BW thread made a big impact because people overwhelmingly agreed with it. But ADV was already very popular, and has seen a huge explosion over the last few years. So, it kinda feels like you're going against the grain here. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't think you're going to find a solution (let alone convince people to adopt it) before you can articulate what the issue is. No doubt you are a much much much better ADVer than me, so even divorced of the policy angle, I am just curious to hear your insights.

For my own two cents on Duggy btw -- I think it's fine. Dug plays significantly differently with 80 attack, no u turn, and flyers everywhere. The play patterns Dug promotes are interesting and unique to ADV, which is a treat. Dug has an interesting role, both on stall teams, and targeting key members of stall teams to allow more offensive builds. It's hard to call it overpowering. You should be able to reasonably anticipate it most of the time, and you have to mess up badly either in game or in builder for your opponent to convert one revenge kill into a win. Neither of those things are true in later gens, where pivoting is more common and power creep lets you capitalize more on a trap.