CAP 37 - Part 3 - Typing Discussion

[Da Pizza Man]

CAP 37 So Far

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It's time to discuss one of the most important decisions for CAP 37--its type(s)! Please follow a fairy's posts carefully and DO NOT immediately propose type combinations until she says so.

 

[a fairy]

Hello there! Let's blast some beaks and get burned during this Typing phase. Let's start this off simply, let's not jump to any assumptions - like DPM's said above, let's explore the whole range of possibilities before we head off anywhere specific. Here's some questions to kick things off and get folks thinking about what CAP37 might end up looking like. Bolds in the questions are my own emphasis for what I think is maybe the most important part of it, but I think the whole has value for sure.

• Is the Flying-type essential to CAP37's success? What angles are there for a non-Flying-type that regularly makes use of Beak Blast?
• What examples exist in other metagames or generations that we can learn from what makes offensive Pokemon succesful while using Flying-type moves? Flying has a neutrally-inclined presense on the type chart, resisted by three and super effective on three, what 'mons successfully use Flying-type moves offensively and why?
• What is the significance of the burn effect part of Beak Blast? Are there types for which this effect comes into play more than often? Is there something to consider in Fire-types being unable to get burned that plays into how CAP37's typing impacts its play?
• Beak Blast only deals damage at the (usual) end of the turn, with a -3 Priority to land assuming CAP37 survives the turn. Does this impact the types chosen at all, for example are typings with useful resistances more preferential to increase likelihood of survival?

 

[dex]

Is the Flying-type essential to CAP37's success? What angles are there for a non-Flying-type that regularly makes use of Beak Blast?

This is a similar question to something we tackled during Saharaja’s typing stage, where we knew we had to work with Diamond Storm. It was determined there that Rock was a good enough coverage type to not necessitate STAB in part due to how well it complemented Ground. I do not believe the same is true for Flying. Flying hits Fighting, Bug, and Grass super effectively. Those aren’t types with super clear cut complements for any single other type. Thus, I think it would be difficult to get good use out of Beak Blast without STAB.

What examples exist in other metagames or generations that we can learn from what makes offensive Pokemon succesful while using Flying-type moves? Flying has a neutrally-inclined presense on the type chart, resisted by three and super effective on three, what 'mons successfully use Flying-type moves offensively and why?

I think Beak Blast is extremely unique as an attack compared to other flying-type moves because the vast majority of Pokemon that use Flying-type moves offensively are fast. Beak Blast’s negative priority messes with that game plan. Defensive flying-types like Zapdos, Corviknight, and Celesteela often drop Flying STAB for coverage as well. To make a successful Beak Blast user, we’ll want to maximize the move’s ability to inflict burn and deal damage. What that means for this stage is thinking about typings that complement Flying on the physical side and can effectively punish physical attackers.

 

[CapitanPabloskii]

Beak Blast is a more defensively oriented move, so if we lean into that with the stats for example I don't see Beak Blast doing enough damage or being threatening enough to force an opponent to switch/attack into it without stab from the Flying-type. I also think a super interesing use case for Beak Blast's burn could be through the Ghost-type or Hex to deal heavy damage. I would love to see it not having a secondairy typing along side Flying that is resistant to Rock, as if you want to run a better item on this Pokemon other than Heavy-Duty Boots you would need a bit more team support. It could be super hard to deal with a mon that you're scared of touching and can punish you in other ways. I fear for this mon having tera, mind games go crazy with this.

 

[aaronarium]

Regarding the burn effect, I think one of the better ways we can maximize the use we get out of it is to consider a type that tempts the use of common contact moves and/or is at least somewhat vulnerable to common physical attackers, and thereby punish them. For example, a Ghost or Psychic type would do this for Knock. Dark, Grass, or Psychic could do this for U-Turn. And so on. I think it's the easiest way to reliably inflict burn via BB and put the opponent in a position where they have to weigh the risks and benefits of "KO before they can get off this Flying-type move, but I'll get burned" vs. "Take a turn to switch or set up, but I'll get hit with the move". Putting the opponent in that position does require BB to have a meaningful level of power, but I'm not sure I'm convinced we need STAB for that when we can also just adjust in the ability and stats stages.

 

[Blizihguh]

If the goal is "have CAP37 click a move that is technically conditional," then Flying STAB is a big help. I don't think this is really pro-concept though. Beak Blast is just generically good, and if we create a mon that just wants to click a 100bp STAB move, the fact of it being conditional becomes irrelevant. Opponents will not attack into it, because CAP37 will want to click Beak Blast as often as possible.

In a world where Beak Blast is coverage, you're actually forcing the issue more effectively. Your opponent has to respect Beak Blast if they don't want to get burned. But if they skip using their best move while CAP37 uses its STAB instead, they've lost tempo! This is actually leveraging the conditional effect -- either you give burn, or you use the threat of burn to your advantage.

To dex's point, it doesn't really matter how good Flying is as coverage. The important thing is whether it complements CAP37's typing. If CAP37 would otherwise struggle into Grass, Fighting, or Bug, it will gladly run a high-power coverage move that hits them and potentially burns(!!). Baiting specific contact moves (by being weak to, eg, Knock Off or U-Turn) would also augment this. A mon that struggles into fighting and bug types would absolutely adore Beak Blast for coverage.

 

[kenn]

Is the Flying-type essential to CAP37's success? What angles are there for a non-Flying-type that regularly makes use of Beak Blast?

I think that STAB Beak Blast would be the best application of this move as a way to succeed with the concept but also with the execution. Flying coverage is rare enough as what it hits SE (Bug, Fighting, and Grass) is usually not a common enough type for a Pokemon to run coverage specifically for said types. That being said, I can see us arguing to explore how Flying as coverage could work, but I am not sure if it would produce quality results.

What examples exist in other metagames or generations that we can learn from what makes offensive Pokemon succesful while using Flying-type moves?Flying has a neutrally-inclined presense on the type chart, resisted by three and super effective on three, what 'mons successfully use Flying-type moves offensively and why?

Obviously the inspiration behind this concept being submitted was the success this specific move has seen in the OM STABmons with the likes of Celesteela and Landorus-Therian. I think where we can focus is the idea of this move being somewhat multi-prioritized thanks to having the ability to manipulate CAP 37's Speed to be slower and nail potential switch-ins while staying faster with other moves it may run thanks to a naturally faster Speed stat. The obvious application of the move is being able to spread burns and potentially help itself or other teammates to tank hits and wear down the opponent. Pokemon that have used Flying type coverage successfully this gen has been backed by Tera a la Acrobatics Roaring Moon, but other instances in past generations include the likes of Dual Wingbeat Scizor; however, the most successful cases where Flying was used offensively were when it was said Pokemon's STAB.

What is the significance of the burn effect part of Beak Blast? Are there types for which this effect comes into play more than often? Is there something to consider in Fire-types being unable to get burned that plays into how CAP37's typing impacts its play?

I think the significance of the burn effect should play a huge role in how we narrow down not only CAP 37's typing, but how it plays against opposing Pokemon. I think this is imperative to achieving the maximum fulfillment of not only the concept, but the move itself. I would say types that offensively threaten Fire-types, which would be immune to the burn, like Water-, Ground-, or Rock-type are all valid here as good potential typings to help spread the burn, but I don't think it is a requirement of fulfilling spreading burns as every other type would be hindered in some way being statused and that is good enough.

Beak Blast only deals damage at the (usual) end of the turn, with a -3 Priority to land assuming CAP37 survives the turn. Does this impact the types chosen at all, for example are typings with useful resistances more preferential to increase likelihood of survival?

I would definitely argue that resilient types would be beneficial here strictly to increase that likelihood of survival, but you can argue the same can be done in stats so I don't think it is a requirement to focus on resilience, but moreso on key resists that types can bring to either complement a potential Flying STAB or types that appreciate Flying coverage.

 

[Gravity Monkey]

What is the significance of the burn effect part of Beak Blast?

Quickly looking at the VR, a lot of what Id personally consider "high-value targets" for the Burn part of the effect also happen to be very good targets for damage (thinking of Waterpon, Zamazenta, Revenankh, Rillaboom, Valiant, and Great Tusk/Argh in lesser measures). The unfortunate consequence of this means that rather than forcing them into catch-22s, you would probably just scare them away into safer 1v1s.

On the flipside, some of the mons youd want to catch with burns have tools to deal with the damage part: A way to burn CAP37 themselves for Kit or Pult, Kingambit who could set up to +6 before doing contact at all (and often runs Tera Fire). Then there are mons with relevant contact moves who youd would really want to burn like Gliscor, Snael or fire-types like Hemo and Cinderace, but who shrug burns and effectively render Beak Blast useless.

What youre left with is a pool of only a few immediately relevant targets: Dragonite, physical Lando-T, Hamurott (debatedly), and some defensive pivots like Alomomola, Corviknight or Zapdos. If one of the aims of this concept is to broaden this pool, then I think its important to leverage typing to make CAP37 more "appealing" as a Pokémon you'd want to stay on.

As some people have pointed out in the concept assessment phase, a way this can be done is by making CAP37 threatening into its would be switch-ins. Water or Ground could be good STABs to have as a way to threaten the aforementioned fire-types as well as other would-be switch-ins for Beak Blast like Garganacl + Ramnarok and Libra + Gliscor for Water / Gholdengo for Ground. Another route could be to give CAP37 a typing that high-value targets would consider staying on. When looking at the list, typings that are weak to Grass or Fighting, like pointed out by Blizihguh, stick out particularily, especially in a gen with Tera where CAP37's user could effectively read their opponent into making the interaction a fully win-win scenario. These would mean forgoing flying STAB though, which is a different discussion to be had.

 

[Guingil]

Is the Flying-type essential to CAP37's success? What angles are there for a non-Flying-type that regularly makes use of Beak Blast?​

It's... complicated. The Flying type famously lacks reliable high-power moves, to the point that defensive Pokémon like Corviknight run Brave Bird. So if a reliable Physical Flying-type STAB is provided, I think the reliable power would be a stronger reason to use the move than its conditional effect, unless the drawbacks of getting hit/negative priority contrast with the Pokémon's role. But Flying also invites Knock Off, which could be a great way to play into the conditional aspect (but probably only once, and assuming the entire typing is still Rocks-weak).

If we make it non-STAB, we do not run the risk of Beak Blast only being used for its power, and have some more space to explore the conditional effect. Another "advantage" of non-STAB is that Flying already resists three typically Physical types, and is not in need of too much helping, but Beak Blast could output more value (with the Burn) on something typing-wise more physically vulnerable. Ting-Lu was mentioned by spammernoob on Discord as a Pokémon that might enjoy Beak Blast, given its monstrous Special bulk, weaknesses to Water, Grass, Fighting, and Bug, which are common physical attacking types. Or a Psychic type that doesn't have to fear Knock Off or U-turn as much. Not being limited to Flying thus gives us more flexibility to tailor our dynamics with contact moves, whereas Flying puts an inherent limiter by being p. good against three already.

Also: is Flying really a bad coverage type, or is it that Flying options are generally terrible? This could be an interesting aspect to explore with Beak Blast. This also allows us to diversify our role from the proven bulky Flying angle in STABmons, where we could instead, say, focus on a bulky wallbreaker who doesn't mind going last with huge offenses and for whom Flying coverage is good. Scizor runs Dual Wingbeat sometimes, Pajantom Brave Bird, but not many examples. Acrobatics saw use on Roaring Moon, but that was for the synergy with Protosynthesis and the immediate power to make use of a +1 Atk or Speed. Apples and oranges to the slower Beak Blast, so this really is somewhat unexplored space.
​

What examples exist in other metagames or generations that we can learn from what makes offensive Pokemon succesful while using Flying-type moves? Flying has a neutrally-inclined presense on the type chart, resisted by three and super effective on three, what 'mons successfully use Flying-type moves offensively and why?​

Strong neutral coverage, no immunities, not for secondary effects. Normally, the examples I've seen are just big, overwhelming damage. Both Venomicons, Cawmodore, Tornadus-therian, and the Kanto birds. But as some others have mentioned, the lack of a secondary effect in most cases also makes defensive Pokémon prefer a move with an additional effect. Beak Blast gives us that, so it's a more interesting space to explore this question.
​

What is the significance of the burn effect part of Beak Blast? Are there types for which this effect comes into play more than often? Is there something to consider in Fire-types being unable to get burned that plays into how CAP37's typing impacts its play?​

Flying, as mentioned already, has great reinforcing synergy due to the Knock/Heavy-Duty-Boots dynamic and resisting types that are more commonly Physical. However, it also comes with an interesting mechanical wrinkle. Assuming we don't patch up the SR weakness, we can't easily switch into Knockers. Unlike contact-abilities, the use of Beak Blast is heavily telegraphed, so we cannot threaten catching moves on a switch. If we somehow enter the battle into a Knocker, we have to consider the very real possibility of them switching out on our Beak Blast into a better matchup. This idea of a "free" turn, however, could also be space for us to do other things, or create lose-lose situations for opponents.

I'm not sure if, say, resisting Knock, U-turn, or Flip Turn is better for this counterplay dynamic (as why would our opponent not simply switch out here?), or if Beak Blast can function as a deterrent to these moves on a Pokémon typically weak to them and thus patch up some of its weaknesses.
​

Beak Blast only deals damage at the (usual) end of the turn, with a -3 Priority to land assuming CAP37 survives the turn. Does this impact the types chosen at all, for example are typings with useful resistances more preferential to increase likelihood of survival?​

Typing could definitely help with the survival aspect, but the opposite could be true too: a weaker typing to Physical moves could be improved by the mere presence of Beak Blast. Depends on whether we want to double down (which also encourages switching out by opponents), or patch up.​

 

[Gekokeso]

Is the Flying-type essential to CAP37's success? What angles are there for a non-Flying-type that regularly makes use of Beak Blast?

I do genuinely don't see us ever using Beak Blast without having stab. Flying isn't a particularly good coverage typing, but as a main STAB it is a pretty decent typing in the current meta. It also would be a shame to not be able to explore the move as an offensive option instead of just a glorified wisp, given its a 120bp move.

What examples exist in other metagames or generations that we can learn from what makes offensive Pokemon succesful while using Flying-type moves? Flying has a neutrally-inclined presense on the type chart, resisted by three and super effective on three, what 'mons successfully use Flying-type moves offensively and why?

Flying Stab users, specifically physical ones like Corviknight, Hawlucha or Dragonite, tend to use their flying stab primarily because of its neutral profile allowing it to hit multiple mons for at least neutral damage. In corv's case its just used to get chip, but Hawlucha and Dragonite tend to suplement their flying stab with coverage for rock, steel and electric types, such as fighting or ground stab. By the nature of how Beak Blast isn't usable for sweeping, I think going for a bulkier user like corv could take the biggest advantage of the move, even though having the other moves as coverage wouldn't hurt either.

 

[FaelisongTalim]

A couple of quick thoughts on the matter:

• Is the Flying-type essential to CAP37's success? What angles are there for a non-Flying-type that regularly makes use of Beak Blast?

I would argue that to a large extent that it is very necessary for the success of CAP 37. While both Ground type and Water type are the best users of Flying for coverage in the current metagame when accounting for Pokemon such as Arghonaut and Rillaboom, I think it would be erroneous to forego Flying STAB altogether. Beak Blast is 100 BP Flying type move that has no recoil like Brave Bird and does not require the item to be consumed like Acrobatics. The biggest issue for me is that aforementioned Pokemon such as Arghonaut have plenty of other avenues to be hit supereffectively, such as through Fairy coverage, and in general the value of Flying as coverage is minimal. That being said, Flying's neutral match-ups are much more common aside from a few painful points like Equilibra, Garganacl, and Zapdos. What I believe to be the biggest fear with opting for a non-STAB focused CAP 37 is that Beak Blast would be dropped in favor of other generally good options, or that to enforce Beak Blast that the movepool is gutted to an exhaustive degree -- neither of which would result in a fun Pokemon.

• What examples exist in other metagames or generations that we can learn from what makes offensive Pokemon succesful while using Flying-type moves? Flying has a neutrally-inclined presense on the type chart, resisted by three and super effective on three, what 'mons successfully use Flying-type moves offensively and why?

Historically, Acrobatics sweepers such as Hawlucha and Celesteela and special mention to Tera Flying Roaring Moon and Sneasler are pretty good abusers of Flying STAB. It's important to note that all of these pokemon have other options that deal with Steels that resist Acrobatics, being either Close Combat or Earthquake (or in Roaring Moon's case, just a really really strong Knock Off). Brave Bird is less common, currently used on primarily Corviknight that can Roost off the recoil. STABMons is a commonly cited Other Metagame that highlights the value of Beak Blast on pokemon such as Corviknight and Celesteela. Hemogoblin is a practical application of MnM Altarianite Dragonite, so it stands to reason that CAP 37 could follow a similar route. As mentioned in my previous paragraph, it would be interesting to capitalize on that neutrality offensively.

• What is the significance of the burn effect part of Beak Blast? Are there types for which this effect comes into play more than often? Is there something to consider in Fire-types being unable to get burned that plays into how CAP37's typing impacts its play?
• Beak Blast only deals damage at the (usual) end of the turn, with a -3 Priority to land assuming CAP37 survives the turn. Does this impact the types chosen at all, for example are typings with useful resistances more preferential to increase likelihood of survival?

The metagame is heavy towards special attackers and there are plenty of non-contact physical moves such as Earthquake and Ivy Cudgel. That being said, I believe the best value out of Beak Blast is to punish utility moves such as Knock Off, U-Turn and Rapid Spin. There is discussion over if Beak Blast should be inclined offensively or defensively. I want to bring up the argument that both can be satisfied at once. Beak Blast can be used to deal massive damage in spite of the lowered priority while still forcing the opponent to be cautious of being Burned, especially if CAP 37 has a move such as Hex (or if they have a partner such as Dragapult). Pokemon such as Hemogoblin, Snaelstrom, Mollux and Gliscor do not fear being Burned, but with STAB it would be impressive enough damage for them to have pause if they want to stay in, especially if CAP 37 can outspeed in the next turn with a move that is not Beak Blast. The only Pokemon that hard counters Beak Blast is Garganacl but it feels inevitable unless we really force the MU to be positive.

To reiterate, I think Beak Blast can either work offensively or defensively, but I think the best possible route is asking if we can achieve a defensive offensive approach where the Pokemon can make progress while denying progress from the opponent. I think this creates a very healthy addition to the metagame that is offensively focused -- Physical sweepers have to reconsider their gameplan if CAP 37 is still up and running, and common defensive pokemon such as Arghonaut and Gliscor may not want to take heavy damage. Beak Blast is a very cool move, and I think an eclectic approach in building the Pokemon is best.

 

[Meowerdoom]

• Is the Flying-type essential to CAP37's success? What angles are there for a non-Flying-type that regularly makes use of Beak Blast?

While I don't think the Flying type is strictly necessary, I do think that losing STAB would necessitate some sort of significant compensation for the loss in power. Beak Blast is 100 base power and basically always goes last. While that's definitely good, it may not quite demand the type of respect from the opponent that the user might hope for. This is the primary move that the CAP is meant to be based around. 100 BP is good, yeah, but you don't run in terror because some random mon is carrying EQ coverage. As others have noted, there needs to be some incentive to actually bring and click Beak Blast if our CAP is not actively forced to by moveset constraints.
Currently, I can only think of 2 angles for a non-Flying CAP to favor Beak Blast as its go-to move:
1, the CAP is designed to lean heavily into the burn-threatening nature of Beak Blast.
2, the CAP is designed to take advantage of the negative priority via Analytic
The issue then becomes... neither one of these angles are incompatible with also being a Flying type. Flying is not a broadly useful coverage type to have. So while I believe it's certainly possible to make this CAP work as a non-Flying type, I don't see any actual reason to, as it would likely just be strictly worse.

• What examples exist in other metagames or generations that we can learn from what makes offensive Pokemon successful while using Flying-type moves? Flying has a neutrally-inclined presence on the type chart, resisted by three and super effective on three, what 'mons successfully use Flying-type moves offensively and why?

When I think of non-Flying mons using Flying type moves, I can only really think of Unburden sweepers using Acrobatics, and even then, that tends to be either a niche option, or used due to a lack of other better options. It can be very strong with Tera Flying, but that is committing extra resources. Outside of Unburden sweepers, the only thing that comes to mind is carrying HP Flying or Aerial Ace as coverage for Breloom and Heracross in generations where those are significant meta threats.
If it is decided that this CAP will be non-Flying, I do not think that Beak Blast will be able to sell itself on primarily offense, and will need to be able to make full use of the burn utility in addition to the offense, as neither one alone will give it viability.

 

[Explosion Badger]

Is the Flying-type essential to CAP37's success? What angles are there for a non-Flying-type that regularly makes use of Beak Blast?

While there probably is an argument someone can make that no, Flying type is not essential, it's a very hard argument to defend. Beak Blast works extremely well with the Flying type, patching up many of the types weaker points, such as:

1. Providing reliable STAB. Flying type is one of the types that inarguably competes for the title of "Worst STAB Moves". Beyond Brave Bird, whose recoil can cause its own issues, and Acrobatics, which requires playing without an item, almost every other widespread Flying type attack either lacks consistency(Hurricane), power(Drill Peck), or both(Dual Wingbeat, Air Slash). Beak Blast is an exception to this, providing a perfectly accurate, 100 BP move that even manages to avoid making contact. While it does have a downside in decreased priority, its reliability alongside its other effects makes up for this downside.
2. Bolstering Flying's Defensive Strengths. Flying is a great defensive type, both due to its ability to stave off dangerous Ground and/or Fighting types, and its immunity to grounded objects, making it safe from the likes of Spikes and Toxic Spikes. The main issue plaguing the type defensively is Stealth Rock, which, while patched up by HDB, is never fully safe from them due to Knock Off. Beak Blast, then, provides even more insurance against Knock Off, threatening any users of the move with a nasty burn in exchange. This deterrent also works against other common moves like Rapid Spin and U-turn, meaning Beak Blast adds to Flying types defensive utility by making the opponent second guess moves that are normally pretty safe to use.