Announcement SV National Dex Suspect #21 - Black Dog

[omar]

Following the latest survey's results, the NDOU council has decided to suspect test Zamazenta-Crowned!

Zamazenta-C has only had a breif stint in National Dex OU, being quicktested as part of a massive wave of unbans at the very beginning of the generation. It's base forme's Iron Defense variant dominated a part of the pre-Terastalization banned meta, but has faded into obscurity in the modern tier without tera.

Proponents of its uban cite Zamazenta-C's significantly lower speed, notably becoming slower than Tapu Koko, Mega Lopunny, and base Zamazenta. This fact, coupled with its lack of a power boost makes it strictly outclassed as an all-out attacker by its base forme, leaving it locked into the Iron Defense + Body Press setup sweeper role. In this role, it still has significant drawbacks, such as its inability to hold an item other than the Rusted Shield, locking it out of Leftovers' passive recovery or the one-time burst healing of Chesto Berry + Rest. This leaves the extremely passive Rest as its only means of recovering health, meaning that any chip damage from Spikes, Rocky Helmet or weaker attacks such as Clefable's Moonblast or Garchomp's Dragon Tail will most likely stick around for the whole game, significantly limiting its setup opportunities. Aditionally, its Steel typing leaves it significantly more vulnerable to having its setup denied by common Fire-types such as Volcarona, Ceruledge and Mega Charizard Y, and Ground-types such as Garchomp and Landorus-Therian.

Players that are against its ban will argue its Steel typing as a boon, allowing it to effortlessly break through Clefable and Hatterene, which Iron Defense variants of base Zamazenta will struggle to break through. Aditionally, its newfound neutrality to Psychic means Choice Scarf Tapu Lele is unable to easily revenge kill a healthy Zamazenta-C and Slowking-Galar lacking Flamethrower becomes setup fodder. Being immune to Toxic allows for more comfortable setup on Pokémon such as Gliscor and Alomomola without needing to use Substitute, turning them into free setup opportunities. Additionally, the boost in base Defense it gains allows it to more easily muscle past checks such as Zapdos and easily tank attacks such as base Zamazenta's Close Combat and Urshifu-R's Surging Strikes.
​

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account OR use an existing one with no SV National Dex OU games played (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played National Dex OU before the test, full stop.) You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in National Dex OU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements.
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• If you want to double check your account eligibility after following these instructions; play at least 1 game on the account, then run the /rank command on that account. You should see a field on the far right that reads "Suspect Test Eligible?"
• Example

  
• If this field says "No" then you have either not set up the account correctly or need to use a different/new account. You do not need to complete your entire reqs for this field to say "Yes"
• After you believe that you have achieved reqs, double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact omar, sealoo or a member of staff.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted.
• We will be using the regular National Dex ladder for this suspect test, and Zamazenta-Crowned will remain legal throughout the entire suspect test.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2950 with a b value of 5.7. The suspect test will go on for roughly two weeks, lasting until March 8th at 11:00pm GMT -5, and then the voting thread will become available on Smogon, where you will be tagged with a link.

This thread will open after 24 hours to allow all users to share and discuss their thoughts on this suspect test. We expect all posters to follow the following rules:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the hypotheticals and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokémon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokémon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it. "I told you so" arguments on their own also contribute little to the discussion without supporting evidence and are rather unwelcomed.
  • This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM omar or sealoo if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.

Keep in mind that the outcome of our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote and voice their opinion.

 

[omar]

Thread is now unlocked! Happy posting and remember to be respectful

 

[ecxdee]

Got my reqs, definitely voting ban. This mon is a huge mu fish that will 1v6 a team without a dedicated counter but do absolutely nothing vs a zap, pech or pex. It's just a teambuilding restriction that contributes nothing positive to the meta, regardless of whether or not it's considered broken (again, heavily depends on the team: ho loses to it pretty bad, non-issue for most balance and bulkier teams)
team I used

(ignore trash w/l I got haxed and cheesed pretty bad)

 

[Bey is Back]

I got reqs last night, so I didn't see Zama C that much, but the few times I faced it, it wasn't that bad. It doesn't gain any attack, and body press isn't oppressively strong, so I don't think it's power is problematic. I am still leaning towards ban though, mostly because I don't think it improves the tier in any way, and it is unnecessarily restrictive for the tier. I think all unbans should be done in the interest of improving a metagame. What does Zama C do for the tier? Uh... soft check diancie?

Realistically, its just adding another annoying offensive mon to account for in the builder, only this time it has 700 bst with no major weakness. Zama C is incredibly annoying in the builder because of the added steel typing. It completely invalidates slowking-g and pecharunt, and both good checks to regular za. It's also now immune to toxic, and neutral to flying, psychic, and fairy, meaning mons like zapdos, lele, latios, and iron valiant who previously could trade into it or revenge it can't or need lots of chip to do so, especially with the added bulk. This is really annoying, especially since you don't know if its Zama C on preview.

While I don't think Zama C's power is that oppressive on its own, a set I think could be unhealthy is rest talk. Like I already said, Zama C is not easy to kill, and it can pretty much 1v1 any ou mon except maybe pex. With pursuit and hazard support I worry that rest talk sets could become impossible to kill when the limited threats to it are removed. This would mean people either have to play like gods to keep their ghost alive, or people have to start running non exploitable checks, which just restricts teambuilding. It kinda reminds me of a way less potent gen 8 natdex dragapult, where either you get every turn right and maybe can stop it, or you can run unaware clef. I don't think Zama is anywhere close to that broken, but I don't think Zama C does anything healthy.

These are just my prelim thoughts and I don't know how this suspect meta will end up, but I don't think I will end up voting unban when I have yet to see a single positive thing Zama C actually does. I genuinely don't understand the thought process behind testing a box legendary at this point in the meta, like yeah it may be manageable, but we don't need it, and it definitely won't make the metagame more fun, but idk.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

I voiced my opinions in the Metagame Discussion thread but I may as well repeat them here.

For starters, I believe that Zamazenta Crowned is ABSOLUTELY NOT a worse version of Zamazenta, you gain so many nasty buffs, such as Poison immunity, STAB Heavy Slam, and of course, an extra 25 Defense to further boost your Body Press. This guy is your average Iron Defense Zamazenta cranked up to the absolute max. Zamazenta Crowned can also brute force past its checks, at one point during my suspect run I ended up 2HKO'ing a Slowking-G with completely uninvested Heavy Slam.

It's also important to note that Zamazenta Crowned isn't necessarily busted on its own. It definitely has counterplay, but that counterplay can easily be punished by the many allies it can be paired with. In a format with Pursuit, Ghost types have to constantly fear getting trapped by the Tyranitars or Kingambits that will likely be found on Zamazenta Crowned's side. If your Ghost type gets low enough, you might just end up losing to the Zamazenta throwing out Crunch to finish you off. This Pokemon has some absurd power and I don't see many people giving it enough credit for that. If you slip up even once it can muscle its way past your checks by just clicking extremely boosted Body Presses. As of now I'm leaning towards ban because of how broken this thing actually feels in practice. While it does have some nice merits like serving as a good foil to Hyper Offense, and Offense teams in general, it can feel really oppressive to face. Making one mistake can lead to Zamazenta Crowned cleaning your entire team up. If this guy gets legalized I'm expecting people to innovate with this guy and come up with some even more diabolical sets than we have seen right now.

I'd love to be convinced otherwise because I can see how this Pokemon can be beneficial to countering some of the more popular structures in the metagame right now, but from what I've seen the negatives far outweigh the positives.

 

[Ayushfcb]

Zamazenta-Crowned often feels underwhelming despite its stats, as it requires a lot of support from its teammates and is quite MU dependent. I don’t see how this benefits the tier, it just adds another Pokemon you have to prepare for in the builder, so I’m voting ban.

Defiant black glasses kingambit with pursuit felt like a good teammate for zama-c cuz it punishes pecharunt using parting shot and that can help Zama-C to press idef like a bot

 

[nimzowitsch]

I got reqs too last night, and I will just echo what everyone else has said. I will certainly be voting Do Not Unban. The added Steel typing makes dealing with it way harder for most archetypes, as now it's immune to Toxic (which is huge), and only neutral to Psychic and Fairy, meaning that things like Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Speed-boosting Iron Valiant, and Mega Latios don't even check it anymore unless it is extremely chipped. This is on top of many defensive answers to Body Press like Gholdengo and Pecharunt being wrecked by Pursuit. Heavy Slam getting STAB makes former answers like Glowking much more dubious. Sure there's a few mons like Dondozo and Haze Toxapex that can 1v1 it but you're certainly not fitting those on every team.

In any case no matter how you slice it and dice it if you drop a 700 BST box art legend with 128 Speed and part Steel typing into a OU-level metagame, it's going to be hard for it not to be at least somewhat busted. This isn't a gen 5-7 Kyurem-B or a gen 7 Hoopa-U situation where those mons were held back by mediocre Speed and incredibly flawed defensive typing. Against HO or Offense Kyurem-B or Hoopa-U would generally only 1 for 1. This mon is fast and the vast majority of things that are faster don't even 2HKO it. If it has boosts then forget even trying to revenge kill it from the physical side. It's a huge headache for offensive teams to deal with and puts a lot of strain on the teambuilder. I don't think it's a healthy addition to the meta.

For reference:

108 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 176-210 (45.3 - 54.1%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO
148 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 102-121 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Psychic Terrain: 144-169 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 204-240 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Latios-Mega Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-182 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 151-178 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[biggruse04]

i think i have a counter to zama crowned buzzwole it rested each of it's stab types and is bulky enough to live a body press and hit back with a z for 70%

 

[TBE]

I just gave some of my thoughts on the potential of Zamazenta-Crowned centered meta in another discussion post so I will be focusing on addressing criticisms raised in defense of BAN. And of course I intend to vote DNB as of now.

The main criticisms against Zamazenta-Crowned is that while it may not be broken, it is unhealthy. I've seen people argue it can easily spiral out of control which makes it difficult to play against in-game and that it's suffocating to build around due to it's good matchup against offensive teams. And these offensive teams, especially Hyper Offense has been the defining archetype of this tier. Now I want to clarify two terms "Broken" and "Unhealthy", I do feel sometimes people interpret them differently so to avoid confusion here is what I intend when I use them: Broken means a Pokemon has no viable counterplay. Unhealthy means a Pokemon is considered bad for the tier, which does not tell you much on it's own. It follows that broken Pokemon are unhealthy and that not all unhealthy Pokemon are considered broken. In fact every tier has Pokemon that many would consider unhealthy but my point is... There is not an absolute rule, in other words saying something is "unhealthy" does not prove it needs to be banned, only that it is banworthy. Often times we don't even need a reason for why something is unhealthy but still allow it, the burden of proof always falls on how far on the spectrum it is leaning towards bad. Though I will make the argument that Zamazenta-Crowned can actually be good for the tier and when people claim it is only bad, they are being shortsighted.

"Zamazenta-Crowned is broken in-game"
I believe this should be the core of our discussion. On paper, Zamazenta-Crowned is clearly not broken, despite its amazing stats it has many obvious flaws. It's Attack stat is relatively mediocre and because it cannot hold an item or boost it's Attack, its incredibly predictable and it is strictly limited by the roles it can perform. So the question is why do we view this Pokemon as "broken in-game", or better than what is reflected on paper? To preface, I'm not speaking dogmatically so please I invite you all to refute me on this point and offer why you believe Zamazenta-Crowned appears to be better in-game than on paper. Well I got this idea from my friend, while we were discussing the topic in lengthy detail he raised a brilliant point and makes me most sympathetic to why Zamazenta-Crowned should be banned. Zamazenta-Crowned compared to one of it's checsks like Toxapex, has way less value to a team at least in the long form which if you're playing against it can reinforce beliefs it's purely a mathcup fish for offense. A reductionist would probably say it's only role is to run away with games and not actually providing that much value to teams compared to Toxapex who is relied on to check other Pokemon and having to stay healthy for Zamazenta-Crowned can leave it to be overwhelmed. I'm obviously aware that Toxapex and Zamazenta-Crowned perform different roles but it does make you wonder... is Zamazenta-Crowned is just a stat-stick that can fit on any team to enhance the matchup verses offensive teams? This is a valid concern, hence why I labeled this the core of the discussion but now I will share my opinion on why Zamazenta-Crowned should be unbanned.


My Response
Having laid out what I believe the most compelling case for pro-ban, it seems counter-intuitive to refute everything I just said. And I logically support all of those points, though I drew a different conclusion than what some might have. Perhaps just a difference in perspective, which is fascinating how people can look at the same thing and draw different conclusions but I digress..

While some see Zamazenta-Crown's presence as restrictive or unhealthy especially in the builder, I see it the other way. Zamazenta-Crowned is a restrictive.. rather a healthy presence in the tier. And the last time I will emphasize my ackowledgement of both arguements to ensure clarity, the arguement I present is not a refuation of Zamazenta-Crown's unhealthy traits but rather my observation of the tiers volatility. Hyper Offense or loosely defined Offenses, especially variants of Mega-Diancie teams and Zamazenta screens but them being at the center of the meta are not signs of a stabalized meta. HO is the defining archetype of National Dex OU, as a result of loading the strongest archetype in the tier you risk HO mirrors which are practically coin flips. The meta has reached a point of saturation, nothing else feels rewarding to load or build without feeling incomplete. Zamazenta-Crowned narrows down the options of HO and surely diminishes it's presence in the tier as players start to adapt especially with balance and bulky offense. There are options like Nasty Plot Pecharunt, Gholdengo, maybe Ceruledge, Volcarona, if not Stone Edge (there is some 4MSS because once you factor in IDBP you have to drop one of Heavy Slam, Stone Edge or Crunch for coverage, on top of the fact not all will use 3a). Although HO struggles immensely with it and while I don't see that as a bad thing, it isn't unwinnable either. In fact the primary goal of HO is to overwhelm your opponent with multiple setup sweepers and breakers, and stacking early hazards. You don't even need Spikes as it is now, most HO teams I've fought settle for just Stealth Rocks and they do their best to deny Stealth Rocks from going up on their side. HO should use Rocky Helmet and Spikes to pressure Zamazenta-Crown's switchins and having at least one way to force it out so you can overwhelm it later. For example Rocky Helmet Garchomp with Dragon Tail is a good lead that deters Zamazenta-Crown while threatening to get up both hazards. I view Zamazenta-Crowned as a skill check. You cannot just lead off with it and win, even into HO which is undeniably it's best matchup. It requires good positioning from both players, the Zamazenta-Crowned player has to be cautious of the fact it has no recovery, no item and effectievly loses it's ability once it switches out. And every other archetype has means to pressure this Pokemon very well. As a consequence of Zamazenta-Crowned the metagame will likely slow down but I don't see this as a bad thing. Last thing, on the topic of building restrictions and the fear of building losing it's creativity.. All tiers have building restrictions and too much diversity in building is a bad thing. I would go as far to say Zamazenta-Crowned gives many more teams playability and even still this is preferable to building new variants of the same team. All metas stabalize eventually, we've seen the outcome of this meta and it is unlikely if Zamazenta-Crowned is banned that any further changes to the tier will occur. Ogerpon-Wellspring is not going to be suspected again, neither will Tera, Darkrai, Dragapult, Z-moves, Solgaleo and even if Volcarona or Magearna are suspected I sense that a DNB in this suspect wouldn't favor action on those Pokemon. So I suppose the question becomes are you satisfied with the tier as it is now? If not and you're still pro-ban then how do you imagine the tier will change in the future?

Admittedly I was going to make a longer post but if you've ever read my posts before the longer they go on the worse they get. That's probably the consequence of writing it all in one sitting and not giving myself time to breathe, so I end up letting my hands do the thinking for me. I might make another post in this thread if I have more to say, though if not then I probably won't post for a while in National Dex threads unless something else happens. Anyways, share your thoughts on Zamazenta-Crowned, what do you think is the most important factor to consider this suspect test?

 

[CanaryKill]

So when are we gonna ban alomomola?

 

[CalamityISComing]

I intend to vote do not unban for the following reasons

1- i think that this further polarizes the meta. Based of cl statistics, mdiancie HO has been extremely prominent. while Zamazenta-C is not strictly an HO mon, it is a strong option on those team archetypes. I think that will further cement their place in the metagame. Balance teams struggle heavily into these teams, and in my suspect run zama-c was very threatening into balance teams i was using even when i had ghold. ghold is often times very easily pressured to check many common offensive mons such as Iron Valiant,mega scizor, and rillaboom, combined with Zama-C being able to have more offensive investment with its higher defenses and bulk means Ghold can be chipped into range of no longer being a check. I think that Zama-C will make Hyper offense(which can take full use of zama-c, and is already very good) and Bulky Balance(which has the best matchup into these teams imo) far better than other archetypes which i believe is unhealthy.

2-Zamazenta gains even more set variety. Zamazenta has consistently been using more and more varied sets to great success. Boots attacker, idef body press, darkinium z,rockium z, choice band, and light clay screens setter. i have also seen limited use of Assault Vest, but i believe thats not as viable. all of these sets have different checks. i can confidently switch corv or mola into boots but not band, i can switch ghold into boots but not darkinium, and so on and so forth. Zama-C is not revealed on preview essentially bringing Zama to 6 viable sets if we count all z-moves as one set. Zamazenta has had consistently high usage and very high winrate in CL, and thus i believe it will become even more difficult to deal with if Zama-C is unbanned. it would mean more strain both in the builder and during the battle. while of course crown is revealed in entry, up until then what should be preserved and what is less important could potentially differ wildly. this extends into the builder asw. whereas before a single mon could reliably check idef zama, idef zama would now have two seperate lists of checks. accentuated by many idef zama-c's opting to run stone edge rather than the traditional substitute. Idef zama was formerlly managable because of the fact that, despite being able to win on preview against certain teams, it was relatively easy to add a single check to it even on more offensive structures(ghold on HO,Zapdos on offense etc). Now that becomes far less certain. this is why i believe offense and balance will struggle far more if Zama-C is unbanned. HO can rely on offensive pressure, fatter teams can afford to check multiple of its sets, whereas offense and balance can potentially struggle hard into it.

im very mediocre at this game, but i ladder too much so i think i have some merit in my arguments. unrelated note but my suspect test run was hell

 

[biggruse04]

So when are we gonna ban alomomola?

the fish is needed

 

[Comett7778]

My immediate impression is it’s just stupid. Just a stat monster. I Def body press sets can just coverage max instead of having things like resto chesto or leftovers. Which honestly is just better. You can muscle your way past most checks. And then throw it behind screens and it becomes crazy bulky. Or throw a pursuit mon on the team. It’s a solid set that can work on ho, offense, and balance. It can be revenged somewhat easily as well as having popular and splashable checks.

4 attacks I have less experience with. It feels alright. You lose some speed and an item slot for stab and almost always 120 Bp heavy slam as well as a shit ton of bulk. Being weak to hazards is definitely a problem but it’s manageable. Imo 4 attacks base Zama is better than 4a Zama C tho both are good.

My main issue isn’t rather it’s broken or not, but why drop it? Like what does it add? It’s only real contribution imo is making the meta game more restricted. I could see a world where we go away from ho’s prevalence given how zama c can reverse sweep it pretty easily. However zama c is also good on ho so it could lead to more ho cheese. I’ll probably decide later next week but I am leaning ban. I’ll also make a far bigger and less rambling post when I fully decide on ban or unban.