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Okidogi has been a controversial Pokemon in the metagame since it exploded onto the scene in NDPL last year, proving itself to be a capable wallbreaker, able to easily overpower otherwise sturdy Fighting-type checks like Clefable and Tapu Fini. Okidogi began seeing usage with a move away from the slower Bulk Up + Substitute set and the discovery of its more immediately potent Fightinium Z set, able to snag KOs against seemingly perfect checks like Hippowdon and Swampert. It then shifted to Poisonium Z sets to drench the Slowbro that rose to check it, and even packs coverage like High Horsepower + Groundium Z or Psychic Fangs to check options like Pecharunt or opposing Okidogi.
The core of the Okidogi issue is in its aforementioned flexibility. By being able to slot essentially any coverage needed in order to handle different checks, Okidogi can become very difficult to stop defensively. Fightinium Z sets eliminate bulky Ground-types like Swampert and Hippowdon that otherwise stomach Gunk Shots decently well, Poisonium Z defeats most capable Fighting-resists, and notable KOs Slowbro alongside a Gunk Shot on the switch. Okidogi’s other moves prove challenging to handle as well; Knock Off allows Okidogi to make progress against any team even if lacking the proper Z-Crystal, High Horsepower allows Okidogi to function as a stopgap against Aegislash, and Psychic Fangs allows Okidogi to check itself quite well.
Maybe one of the most frustrating aspects of Okidogi’s strength is its ability to spread Poison with its fantastic ability, Toxic Chain. Alongside Gunk Shot, Okidogi has a 51% chance to cripple any non-Poison check switching in, allowing it to more easily break through the opposing team later in the game. Pair this with Okidogi’s powerful STAB Close Combat, and it can be very difficult to handle defensively, both in the short-term due to its powerful Z-Moves and long term with its propensity to whittle down defensive Pokemon.
Okidogi is not without its flaws, however. Its speed stat, although often allowing it to outspeed important targets like Adamant Bisharp and Tyranitar, usually leaves it in the crowded Speed tier alongside other options like Excadrill, Rillaboom, and Salamence, all of which can outspeed and cripple Okidogi if desired. Okidogi also has few natural entry points, as its lack of recovery can often leave it easily picked off by revenge killing attempts if used too recklessly. Despite this, it can enter on many Choice-locked Pokemon like Tyranitar and Hydreigon, as well as finding points of entry alongside pivots like Slowbro, Rotom-W, or Hydreigon.
Okidogi’s Speed and typing mean that despite its ability to be a ferocious wallbreaker, it brings little defensive utility to a team. Pokemon like Mega Gardevoir, Enamorus, Hydreigon, and tier king Mega Aerodactyl can KO Okidogi quite easily, often forcing teams with Okidogi to run significantly sturdier defensive backbones to handle these revenge killing attempts. However, it is important to note that many of these revenge killers find it difficult to switch directly into Okidogi themselves, with most being OHKOd directly or being terrified of potential Poison or coverage options. Finally, Okidogi often restricts players from using teammates like Buzzwole or Pecharunt alongside it, which are important defensive options to ward off various other Fighting-types in the tier.
Suspect Test Information
The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
Create a new account OR use an existing one with no National Dex UU games played (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played National Dex UU before the test, ever.) You do not have to follow any specific naming rule but your suspect account must have never played a game in National Dex UU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements.
At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
After you linked your account, if you play one game with the alt, you have to play at least one game in order to verify and then do /rank in order to see the "Suspect Test eligible" message
[*]If this field says "No" then you have either not set up the account correctly or need to use a different/new account. You do not need to complete your entire reqs for this field to say "Yes"
After you believe that you have achieved reqs, double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact Danbear02, Niadev, or any staff member.
If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!
Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted.
We will be using the regular National Dex UU ladder for this suspect test, and Okidogi will remain legal throughout the entire suspect test.
Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900 with a B-Value of 3.
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The suspect test will last until February 17th 11:59 PM GMT -8.
For those of you wondering about the Suspect Tours, due to limited interest and player quantity, we will not be continuing with these Tours.
As always with suspect threads, this post is not representative of the views of the council.
Okidogi has been contentious for a while now, previously being considered as problematic as Iron Moth and was very nearly suspected before it (council was tied on it and ultimately the HO issue as a whole being potentially resolved by Moth going was the tie breaker). At this point, the meta has developed to the point that Okidogi isn't anywhere near as cracked as it was when it first became popular (but still has its moments), shown by its relatively underwhelming showing in NDCL so far, but it has most certainly remained just as much of a strain on the builder. In fact, its performance can probably be attributed to people running Pecharunt specifically for it. Balance is generally considered to kind of suck right now, with its appearances being very far and few between in NDCL so far, and Okidogi can be considered a large part of the reason behind that (there's also MGarde but this ain't about them), as there are only really two options to handle Okidogi defensively - running Pecharunt (who forces certain restrictions on building that don't jive well with what balance wants to run) and praying it's not Groundium Z, or running the combo of PDef Hippowdon and Slowbro.
The Counterplay is Pretty Limiting ICL:
Just PDef Hippo isn't enough since it can only ever trade at best with a healthy Okidogi, even against Poisonium with Helmet, and forget about it vs Fightinium, and given what Hippo is tasked to check, that might as well be a death sentence for the Hippowdon's team. Therefore, you need Slowbro *and* Hippowdon to handle it consistently, which forces specific building restrictions on balance. For one, you can't run Exca for the role compression, you can't run Rotom-W or defensive Buzzwole due to overlap in weaknesses and roles, meaning SD Aegislash gives you a rough time if Hippo gets chipped a little too much and practically forces you to run Hydreigon or Jolly TTar and oh look, that's half your team decided for you. Sure, they're not bad mons at all, but forcing them onto every team that wants to play an awkward double off with Okidogi or run Pecha is not good for meta health or creativity, which shows by just how samey teams look in NDCL right now. The core also just kind of crumbles to CB sets with a little prediction, at best forcing you into easily exploited pivots into the other check and giving Dogi's team momentum. Having two slow physdef mons is also often a burden on the builder and leans you towards balance in a Dogi meta, and generally Slowbro prefers Exca as a ground due to the two covering each other's weaknesses much better and providing Slowbro's team more breathing room to bring in breakers/cleaners.
The alternative, of course, is to run Pecharunt, but that comes with its own issues - Since you're TTar and Bish fodder (Malignant Chain shenanigans notwithstanding for the former), you have to run a bulky fighting unless you want to play the Field is Lava with your Pecharunt, and running Pecharunt means you can't run defensive Buzzwole (offensive Buzzwole gets 2hkod by CB TTar, forcing it to roost and giving the Tar player an in for something else, and Buzz has to be either Jolly itself or stay above 80 the entire game to not potentially lose to LO Jolly Bisharp) or Okidogi. This leaves you with Mienshao, who doesn't want to come in on TTar at all and only barely checks SD Bish (unless you give it the +3 with Parting Shot :sob:), and Keldeo, which has its own teambuilding oddities due to type stacking with Washtom and, while fairly bulky, isn't really bulky enough nor has the longevity to answer the two more than once. Your phys wall is also not a sand Exca check, leaving you reliant on just your other check, usually Steela or Washtom.
Some soft checks do exist, but all have significant flaws that make them either only work on BO teams or are even more of a burden to fit than the previous options. Swampert can take a hit from full and pivot into a revenge killer (more on those later), but can't actually 1v1 it, and in the process of taking that one hit, now you're majorly chunked and/or poisoned so good luck checking the other stuff Swampert needs to. Mega Venusaur is... not great (mega that's not Mega Aero + Hippo and TTar being everywhere + no passive recovery + celesteela everywhere moment), and still loses to Poisonium. Aegi just outright loses to BU sets, as +1 HHP mauls offensive SD sets and the most bulky special sets can do is trade itself for half of Okidogi's HP, and Defensive Buzzwole isn't too much different given it can't 2HKO a +1 Dogi and gets either 2HKOd by Gunk or outright pulverised by Poisonium, plus Dogi can just raw Gunk it first for Toxic Chain + Gunk poison and now it's crippled for when Dogi comes in later.
It's not a cinch to answer offensively either, thanks to its unreasonably strong physical bulk and Bulk Up. As mentioned, it 1v1s or at worst trades with the phys def grounds, and Sand Rush Exca and MAero need chip to KO it after a Bulk Up, but in the latter two's case, thankfully it's rarely going to be full enough for that to really matter, but the possibility exists. Most of the other options to reliably KO (that don't suck or at least suck to fit on a team) from full are megas, need specific sets (ie. Keldeo who has to be Waterium or Specs Hydro). Then there's Substitute sets which complicate matters even more, but luckily those aren't the set that blows holes into your defensive core.
Building is More Strained than Baby Food and More Samey than a University Student's Dinner:
However, Okidogi's impact on the builder extends beyond forcing teams into weird team comps to handle it. Namely, it makes fightings like Off Buzzwole and Mienshao much more difficult to handle given Okidogi makes otherwise solid fighting checks like Clefable completely fall flat because they simply do not answer Okidogi, and if they don't do that, why are we bothering to run them? I won't pretend Dogi going would make Clefable top tier again, but it would certainly be worth bothering to run for the utillity and checking the other fightings, and Buzzwole has a much harder time doing its thing when Clef forces it to run PJab. As mentioned before, many have mentioned that teams in the tier feel very samey, and Okidogi is a big part of why due to the limited options to answer it, the structures its counterplay forces, and its highly detrimental effect on the viability of balance and pushing out of otherwise fine fighting resists that would make Z Buzzwole and the like much more manageable.
Further speaking of Pecharunt, while it's honestly broken in its own right, it's not so busted or splashable as to merit the absurd usage it's been seeing in NDCL. It's not a chore to add by any means, and it certainly would have good usage still, but most teams would probably rather run Slowbro due to Slowbro being much easier to pilot thanks to Regenerator while offering much more utillity to its team (TWave, a pivot move that isn't a glaring neon 'come get your free +3 Bisharp' sign, FSight if you can somehow pull that off in this meta) and being much harder to exploit by Bish and TTar. I know I sure would. Buzzwole, as mentioned, is another physdef mon that gives teams a much easier time against the itself honestly still questionably healthy SD Aegislash on top of being by far the least passive of the three.
Take this with a Pinch of Salt, but...
I think I mentioned this earlier, but a well played Choice Band set makes most Z Dogi counterplay inadequate:
252+ Atk Choice Band Okidogi Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 205-243 (48.9 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Okidogi Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Okidogi High Horsepower vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Pecharunt: 180-212 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Note that this is speculation and currently Choice Band is not a major part of my ban argument, I just want to point out that Okidogi can and, at the rate it's going in NDCL, it probably will run things to bypass SlowHippo and Pecha.
Stuff I haven't mentioned because this would be way too long otherwise, Moth Essay was an exception and I have a life:
Dogi is more than capable of contributing via TChain before getting a chance to boost
Groundium shamones Pech at the cost of being stuffed by Slowbro which might be worth given Pechs' NDCL usage
Scarf... exists, I guess?
Also bulkier Dogi sets to mess with counterplay but tbh who tf running that with Pecha usage being what it is
Dogi is pressurable
Some people choose not to run any defensive answers and Hydrapple it by Just Outplay Bro:tm:ing it. Problem is that assumes you're better than your opp and that's not what the tiering policy framework assumes so I can't really use that to argue either side. Like I could say 'it's so difficult to prep for people are just not bothering and YOLOing it' or 'it's not so dumb that you can't manage without defensive answers' but I can't because of that :/.
Can struggle to come in but we have like 50 pivots so that's not a huge issue, esp given it farms tf out of most Washtom switchins. Ironically though Dogi makes it harder to run Washtom by existing.
... And, without further ado...
A number of people have asked why Okidogi was tested before Pecharunt, who has seen more success in NDCL and can run away with games at times. For me, this boils down to a few reasons - you don't have to go as far out of your way to stop Pecharunt, as it's annoyed by TTar and farmed by CB (again besides MC shenanigans), it's easier to pressure because it needs an NP to be a serious threat, and there aren't any dumb set guessing shenanigans like with Okidogi. MC is annoying but most steels can stave it off, with Hoodra notably able to threaten it with Draco and stomach a +2 Z-Shadow Ball (technically true but you actually get set up on without DTail, Flash Cannon doesn't 2HKO bulky NP sets :/), and Exca is able to threaten a 2HKO with EQ, and it only has 8 PP so it can't spam it that much and has to fall back on the much weaker SBall. It also shares a few revenge killers with Okidogi, so you don't have to go too far away from the norm to deal with it. In other words, less strain on the builder, not as immediately threatening.
That isn't to say I don't think it's a problem - While I view Okidogi as a higher priority, Pecharunt is definitely my second choice for suspect and is almost certainly the next suspect assuming OU doesn't give us something stupid or we don't discover Sinistcha is a turbo sleeper threat or something. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a lower ranked mon turned out to be Actually Kind of Dumb:tm:.
Finally, if we ban Pecha first, going by the gap between Moth and Dogi, we'd have to deal with at least a few weeks of Okidogi going ballistic and forcing any team with any semblance of a desire to have a defensive core to run SlowHippo before we've had Obligatory Cooldown Period:tm:, right in the middle of NDCL and probably through playoffs. Best to deal with Dogi before the one mon that walls it and not have Okidogi make the rest of NDCL a boring SlowHippo-fest.
I rly like both the ou and uu metas, probably the highest enjoyability for me of the whole generation. Gonna be voting ban on dog and pech, but pech is definitely way more broken. Id also ban venu, as it gets too many polarizing matchups and brainlessly clicks giga / sludge / knock
Okidogi always becomes a threat when supported by bulky Pokémon such as Hippo and Slowbro. It is unhealthy that a +1 Fightinium Z set can be justified even when facing a mandatory loss against Pecharunt , which currently capitalizes on it in the metagame. Centralizing the meta around them is an option I wouldn't take, as they are considered extremely difficult to predict depending on their setup. While Pecharunt is known to be an unhealthy presence, that is irrelevant here since we are focusing on Okidogi. I will give my verdict once I have fully reflected on the 'Poison Dog' situation
Okidogi has been the most annoying roadblock to teambuilding I've faced in this tier. Despite a few decent revenge killers and Pecharunt being able to usually 1v1 it, Dogi still finds a way through. Even Ground Z as of late has made Pech less reliable than it used to be, as Dogi trades with it and other strong attackers like Maero can clean up late game. Once I get reqs I will be voting ban so I can teambuild in peace. Pech is also broken though that mon farms like crazy
Just got reqs with this team...(That fini set is the truth trust, thank you to salmonelephant for that but should prob outspeed ada rilla tho)
I agree with a lot of what has been said till now and will be voting BAN myself, the only thing I'd really like to add is how I believe it to be a big net positive that continuous tiering action is being taken with the moth ban, dogi suspect and probable pecharunt suspect soon this late into a generation.
I just completed the requirements with the team posted above. I'm at the stage where I'm unsure whether Okidogi is at an uncontrollable point a threat capable of breaking walls and forcing defensive adjustments with the metagame's established checks. This is something we must consider. Its Speed investment also becomes annoying to handle its weaknesses, but forcing Tapu Fini to run over 284 Speed EVs wastes some of the potential it could have in other stats.
A Pokémon that can reshape an entire metagame is not healthy, and it’s something we should address soon.
Thanks to the user who shared their team in the post above. I used it and felt it was a perfect climb up the ladder.
Dog seems pretty good, 80% of non-ho teams were already pdef water + ground + offensive check prior to the explosion in usage so its not like you have to go super out of your way to pack multiple outs like some posts suggest. I also think it's not so bad that it's a breaker that regularly runs opportunity cost in power > longevity and requires multiple turns to get past these aforementioned cores while being a good long-term punish that rewards proper planning, positioning, and picking the right set, which i find especially welcome compared to previous brokens like Kyurem and Gallade.
The other thing associated with these recent games I feel is important to touch on is what I will refer to as the offensive congestion between certain speed tiers. Yes, you can run the risk of getting punished for assuming that something is running non-spe+ in a vacuum, that of which includes ada/jolly dog, but I also feel that many games featuring teams that were influenced by the notion of these speed wars tended to have other outs, making this type of play much less common in practice and more of a last resort kind of thing. I think the metagame can very much be pushed with innovations outside this boundary with things like Buzzwole still being very solid at checking things like Bisharp defensively on a variety of bo/balance, pivots like Salamence, Mega Venu, and Mew also being fairly underused (haha get it) in said defensive roles and having other good qualities besides being fairly good at checking Dog in the short-term, and even smaller tweaks to playstyles like an increase in spikes usage due to it punishing the upsurge in Excadrill as the key removal option go a long way in indirectly nerfing the kinds of things Dog can apply in practice. I don't think Dog makes any teamstyles barring maybe stall (given, that tends to have bigger problems than Dog itself) obsolete more than other important Pokemon, and I really like some of the building qualities it has when played to them.
Danbear02 's intended post breaking down the larger metagame schematics also sounds pretty good and you should go read it when its out.
I'm gonna be honest, my Mons motivation has been quite low recently and it looks like Dogi will get banned anyways but Iride has inspired me to actually write this post so here goes. This will be a wall of text because I don't care enough to format.
I don't actually think Okidogi should be banned for a few reasons. First, the obvious answer; Pecharunt. Not only do I think Pecharunt should have suspect tested first, but I think Pecharunt is so adept at checking Dogi by itself that Dogi is significantly held down by simply Pecharunt being in the tier. I feel like this is not the case for any other mon that we have banned in the past; even in recent memory, Hawlucha, Mega Tyranitar, Iron Moth, and Mega Gallade never had a single mon completely blank them. Groundium Z Dogi only KOs Pecharunt sets that it does NOT outspeed, and also gives up on literally everything that makes it a genuinely threatening wallbreaker in every other matchup, on top of the fact that Ground Z sets are also much harder to utilize early in the game without Knock Off to make easy progress. I think Pecharunt alone serves as a strong argument to not ban Dogi, as any team that truly wants to beat Dogi without having to actually think about teambuilding can just slap Pecharunt on. And don't give me this "Pecharunt is so hard to teambuild with" because Pecharunt is like the Number 2 Pokemon in the tier; you can literally put it on any team and it will perform well. If you can't build with Pecharunt its because you are not creative, not because Pecharunt restricts teambuilding.
Beyond the obvious counterplay of just Pecharunt, you have a LOT of other options. With the rise of sets that don't run Knock Off, Slowbro is slowly becoming a better Dogi check. Hippowdon checks pretty much every set, as even Fightinium Z can't break physically defensive Hippowdon. Swampert is a very effective stopgap to allow you to pivot into your Okidogi check, especially if there isn't a Knock Off to remove your Leftovers. Buzzwole can handle many sets, faster Excadrill can force it out, Mega Venusaur beats it one on one. Essentially every single mon from S to A- on the VR has some way to pressure or restrict Okidogi in some way. I find this to be the most effective way to play around Dogi; limiting its setup opportunities makes it way easier to deal with, as +1 Z Moves are admittedly hard to switch into, but Dogi gets very limited opportunities to actually set up a Bulk Up anyways.
Whenever I mention defensive counterplay, I inevitably hear the "Dogi just Z Moves through everything argument". However, often times this assumes that not only does Dogi have the correct Z Move, but your team gives Dogi enough space to actually allow it to get a Bulk Up off AND doesn't have the defensive presence to handle Dogi. With options like Swampert available, most teams have something that can switch into a Dogi, take a hit, and pivot out. Thats the minimum requirement, with Slowbro being a much more sturdy defensive piece into most Dogi sets. Of course if we assume Dogi is every set all at once then it is impossible to handle, but if you teambuild with the most popular PoisonZ Dogi set in mind, it becomes quite easy to handle, even without Pecharunt. If you want proof, see me loading 0x Pecharunt in NDCL, the tour were supposedly the most competetive strategies should be loaded, yet I loaded many teams that were perfectly fine against Okidogi that did not have to rely on Pecharunt to do so.
I think the most damning piece of evidence against Dogi is its winrate. It is literally sub-50%; I think its prolly hovering around 30-45 percent after Round 7 of CL, which is insanely low for a supposedly broken Mon. The main argument against this is that Dogi is "meta-warping" but I don't think having to have a Physically defensive Mon capable of handling Poison-type attacks is particularly warping; we have had PJab Mienshao and Buzzwole for quite a while, and have found ways to deal with them to. Why is Dogi so different? It notably lacks the immediate breaking power and recovery of Buzzwole, and lacks the speed and longevity of Mienshao. I genuinely don't understand why Dogi is so different than something like Z Bug Buzzwole.
I'll take this opportunity to mention some of the arguments listed above.
Niadev mentions that you need Phys def Hippo AND Slowbro to handle all Dogi sets. Hippo takes a +1 FightZ boosted move and does not die even to Toxic if Toxic Chain procs, which lets it trade with Dogi essentially completely. While this might seem bad, if you are using a defensive team that is relying on Hippo to check Dogi, you will have overlapping defensive pieces to make sure to handle the other teammates that come with it. And if you are running an offensive team then your offensive core will aim to limit Dogi and can easily pick it off once weakened by Hippowdon. This is also assuming your opponent is running the much worse Fight Z set.
If your opponent is running the MUCH MUCH BETTER Poison Z set, which should be considered standard at this point, then Hippowdon is a fantastic check. CHECK, NOT COUNTER. If you need a Counter for Okidogi on a defensive team, you can just run Pecharunt, which covers every Fighting-type anyways in a way that literally no other mon in the tier can do. Slowbro becomes a good check if Dogi is running Fight-Z, but is also a fine check regardless because if the Dogi player every misuses their PoisonZ, Slowbro immediately becomes essentially free into Dogi with Gunk's subpar accuracy and it doing only around ~39%.
Swampert also trades, and is only seen on offense which is much more comfortable trading with Dogi, as Swampert is very temporary on most offense teams. Dogi is essentially what a Mon like Swampert is intended to check on those structures. Mega Venusaur should always be fast and offensive in this metagame, so it can easily outspeed and cripple Dogi with Earth Power. SD Aegislash never switches into Dogi, so I don't know why that was brought up, but Special Aegislash can take any one hit from Dogi and KO with Ghostium Z.
Also why the FUCK are we saying Pecharunt gets checked by Bisharp?? Have y'all not switched your Bish in only to do like 40 with Knock Off and then get ass-blasted by Ghost-Z? Tyranitar at least doesn't instantly explode to Z but if you get Toxiced, have fun trying to hit your Knock Off through confusion with Pecharunt spamming Recover and then switching out into their Fighter, and then switching Pech back in later against the entire tier and healing back up.
Anyways like I said Dogi prolly gets banned because the playerbase hates playing/building against it, which honestly I don't really care about because I don't use Dogi anyways and as I said before, I find it very easy to build around so, no harm no foul I guess. But can we PLEASE ban these DAMN GHOST TYPES who keep escaping the Ban Hammer. Pecharunt I'm coming for yo ass.
Tell me if any of my arguments are stupid pls and I'll respond/rexplain.
I'm gonna be honest, my Mons motivation has been quite low recently and it looks like Dogi will get banned anyways but Iride has inspired me to actually write this post so here goes. This will be a wall of text because I don't care enough to format.
I don't actually think Okidogi should be banned for a few reasons. First, the obvious answer; Pecharunt. Not only do I think Pecharunt should have suspect tested first, but I think Pecharunt is so adept at checking Dogi by itself that Dogi is significantly held down by simply Pecharunt being in the tier. I feel like this is not the case for any other mon that we have banned in the past; even in recent memory, Hawlucha, Mega Tyranitar, Iron Moth, and Mega Gallade never had a single mon completely blank them. Groundium Z Dogi only KOs Pecharunt sets that it does NOT outspeed, and also gives up on literally everything that makes it a genuinely threatening wallbreaker in every other matchup, on top of the fact that Ground Z sets are also much harder to utilize early in the game without Knock Off to make easy progress. I think Pecharunt alone serves as a strong argument to not ban Dogi, as any team that truly wants to beat Dogi without having to actually think about teambuilding can just slap Pecharunt on. And don't give me this "Pecharunt is so hard to teambuild with" because Pecharunt is like the Number 2 Pokemon in the tier; you can literally put it on any team and it will perform well. If you can't build with Pecharunt its because you are not creative, not because Pecharunt restricts teambuilding.
Beyond the obvious counterplay of just Pecharunt, you have a LOT of other options. With the rise of sets that don't run Knock Off, Slowbro is slowly becoming a better Dogi check. Hippowdon checks pretty much every set, as even Fightinium Z can't break physically defensive Hippowdon. Swampert is a very effective stopgap to allow you to pivot into your Okidogi check, especially if there isn't a Knock Off to remove your Leftovers. Buzzwole can handle many sets, faster Excadrill can force it out, Mega Venusaur beats it one on one. Essentially every single mon from S to A- on the VR has some way to pressure or restrict Okidogi in some way. I find this to be the most effective way to play around Dogi; limiting its setup opportunities makes it way easier to deal with, as +1 Z Moves are admittedly hard to switch into, but Dogi gets very limited opportunities to actually set up a Bulk Up anyways.
Whenever I mention defensive counterplay, I inevitably hear the "Dogi just Z Moves through everything argument". However, often times this assumes that not only does Dogi have the correct Z Move, but your team gives Dogi enough space to actually allow it to get a Bulk Up off AND doesn't have the defensive presence to handle Dogi. With options like Swampert available, most teams have something that can switch into a Dogi, take a hit, and pivot out. Thats the minimum requirement, with Slowbro being a much more sturdy defensive piece into most Dogi sets. Of course if we assume Dogi is every set all at once then it is impossible to handle, but if you teambuild with the most popular PoisonZ Dogi set in mind, it becomes quite easy to handle, even without Pecharunt. If you want proof, see me loading 0x Pecharunt in NDCL, the tour were supposedly the most competetive strategies should be loaded, yet I loaded many teams that were perfectly fine against Okidogi that did not have to rely on Pecharunt to do so.
I think the most damning piece of evidence against Dogi is its winrate. It is literally sub-50%; I think its prolly hovering around 30-45 percent after Round 7 of CL, which is insanely low for a supposedly broken Mon. The main argument against this is that Dogi is "meta-warping" but I don't think having to have a Physically defensive Mon capable of handling Poison-type attacks is particularly warping; we have had PJab Mienshao and Buzzwole for quite a while, and have found ways to deal with them to. Why is Dogi so different? It notably lacks the immediate breaking power and recovery of Buzzwole, and lacks the speed and longevity of Mienshao. I genuinely don't understand why Dogi is so different than something like Z Bug Buzzwole.
I'll take this opportunity to mention some of the arguments listed above.
Niadev mentions that you need Phys def Hippo AND Slowbro to handle all Dogi sets. Hippo takes a +1 FightZ boosted move and does not die even to Toxic if Toxic Chain procs, which lets it trade with Dogi essentially completely. While this might seem bad, if you are using a defensive team that is relying on Hippo to check Dogi, you will have overlapping defensive pieces to make sure to handle the other teammates that come with it. And if you are running an offensive team then your offensive core will aim to limit Dogi and can easily pick it off once weakened by Hippowdon. This is also assuming your opponent is running the much worse Fight Z set.
If your opponent is running the MUCH MUCH BETTER Poison Z set, which should be considered standard at this point, then Hippowdon is a fantastic check. CHECK, NOT COUNTER. If you need a Counter for Okidogi on a defensive team, you can just run Pecharunt, which covers every Fighting-type anyways in a way that literally no other mon in the tier can do. Slowbro becomes a good check if Dogi is running Fight-Z, but is also a fine check regardless because if the Dogi player every misuses their PoisonZ, Slowbro immediately becomes essentially free into Dogi with Gunk's subpar accuracy and it doing only around ~39%.
Swampert also trades, and is only seen on offense which is much more comfortable trading with Dogi, as Swampert is very temporary on most offense teams. Dogi is essentially what a Mon like Swampert is intended to check on those structures. Mega Venusaur should always be fast and offensive in this metagame, so it can easily outspeed and cripple Dogi with Earth Power. SD Aegislash never switches into Dogi, so I don't know why that was brought up, but Special Aegislash can take any one hit from Dogi and KO with Ghostium Z.
Also why the FUCK are we saying Pecharunt gets checked by Bisharp?? Have y'all not switched your Bish in only to do like 40 with Knock Off and then get ass-blasted by Ghost-Z? Tyranitar at least doesn't instantly explode to Z but if you get Toxiced, have fun trying to hit your Knock Off through confusion with Pecharunt spamming Recover and then switching out into their Fighter, and then switching Pech back in later against the entire tier and healing back up.
Anyways like I said Dogi prolly gets banned because the playerbase hates playing/building against it, which honestly I don't really care about because I don't use Dogi anyways and as I said before, I find it very easy to build around so, no harm no foul I guess. But can we PLEASE ban these DAMN GHOST TYPES who keep escaping the Ban Hammer. Pecharunt I'm coming for yo ass.
Tell me if any of my arguments are stupid pls and I'll respond/rexplain.
Which of these defensive options actually kill dogi back? Okidogi gets a bulk up as you switch your hoodra into hippo and suddenly you just lost. Pecharunt without ghost z doesnt even 1v1 dogi. Not to mention you just ignore how switching in on a move to get badly poisoned just means you lose harder next time.
Which of these defensive options actually kill dogi back? Okidogi gets a bulk up as you switch your hoodra into hippo and suddenly you just lost. Pecharunt without ghost z doesnt even 1v1 dogi. Not to mention you just ignore how switching in on a move to get badly poisoned just means you lose harder next time.
Again, Hippo trades with Dogi which is entirely enough with every team; you leave it low enough to either just die to any move switching in or have like one more switch with Hazards.
Every Pech is Z. Boots is not a real set anymore.
Again, Dogi counterplay is to limit its switchins. Of course if the wallbreaker switches in against the walls 4+ times its gonna wallbreak. Thats the whole point of a wallbreaker.
I would’ve much rather had Pech go up first, but when Pech is gone (judging by how everyone talks about and views it, myself included, that time will be soon) Dogi will be the broken monster with one million win rate. Even with Pecharunt still here, Dogi is still oppressive enough to most players that it’s worth banning. Everyone knows Pech should’ve been first atp but choosing not to ban Dogi now and waiting until Pech is gone just slows down this process when we know we want both mons out. It’s not like Pecharunt going would open up a bunch of Dogi checks or counters that Pech completely pwns, other than like Buzzwole kinda almost.
Again, Hippo trades with Dogi which is entirely enough with every team; you leave it low enough to either just die to any move switching in or have like one more switch with Hazards.
Every Pech is Z. Boots is not a real set anymore.
Again, Dogi counterplay is to limit its switchins. Of course if the wallbreaker switches in against the walls 4+ times its gonna wallbreak. Thats the whole point of a wallbreaker.
Pecharunt can only use Z once, so if dogi switches as you z you just lose next time. It's nothing guaranteed, and that's the overall problem with all toxic chain poisons and the set variability. Also, dogi easily finds an in vs a lot of common mons in the tier due to its natural bulk and all the good pivots. You say "just limit dogi switchins" as if that's easy in game, and "just build so that dogi can't come in on anything" is an unreasonably limiting constraint in the builder and extremely unhealthy for metagame diversity. There's a reason fat balances don't exist in this tier, and it's because there are too many strong breakers that can beat their answers with customization, with dogi being at the forefront of that. I think we should strive for a tier where most playstyles that aren't on the edges of the ho to stall spectrum are at least somewhat viable, and that's not what NDUU looks like right now and you know it.
Pecharunt can only use Z once, so if dogi switches as you z you just lose next time. It's nothing guaranteed, and that's the overall problem with all toxic chain poisons and the set variability. Also, dogi easily finds an in vs a lot of common mons in the tier due to its natural bulk and all the good pivots. You say "just limit dogi switchins" as if that's easy in game, and "just build so that dogi can't come in on anything" is an unreasonably limiting constraint in the builder and extremely unhealthy for metagame diversity. There's a reason fat balances don't exist in this tier, and it's because there are too many strong breakers that can beat their answers with customization, with dogi being at the forefront of that. I think we should strive for a tier where most playstyles that aren't on the edges of the ho to stall spectrum are at least somewhat viable, and that's not what NDUU looks like right now and you know it.
HO is much less of an issue now that Moth is banned, and Stall is essentially non-existent because of the strong breakers you mentioned. Fat Balance struggles way more to deal with Mons like Mega Gardevoir and Specs Hydreigon and Nasty Plot Pecharunt over a longer game as these breakers are either immediately stronger or have reliable bulk and recovery.
I honestly don't understand this argument that Dogi switches into many different options. Out of the S-A rank on the VR, it switches in comfortably against exactly Scizor and Tyranitar? I've never had an issue in games where Dogi comes in repeatedly except when I'm using a fatter team, which even then can handle a lot of Dogi sets with the combination of something like Skarm + Slowbro.
The tier right now is essentially completely Bulky Offense/Offense oriented. IMO those teams require the most skill expression to build with and to pilot. Most tiers aim to centralize teambuilding in that BO space while leaving room for other teamstyles, which while Fat and Stall are harder to build at this point, I believe that's primarily due to breakers like Garde and Pech and Aegi rather than Dogi.
Well, finally finished reqs, used this reconstruction of a Danbear team as well as this stall for the last few games, so time to make an actual suspect post now that I've had time to get everything sorted in my head. So let's get into that.
Let's talk about the dog. A lot of what I'll say is similar to what Niadev posted above, so I'll keep any repeated points brief. Okidogi first showed up in NDPL after its ban from RU, and has cemented itself as an insane wallbreaker ever since. Unlike other fightings in the tier, its secondary poison typing allows it to break past Fairies such as Clefable and Tapu Fini more easily than any other fighting we have seen in the past. This has led to defensive fairies all but completely dropping out of the tier (note: I recognise that the stall I used for reqs utilises unaware Clefable. This stall does in fact nearly autolose to Okidogi as a consequence, but ladder is ladder and doesn't actually use good mons. So I very much abused the complete lack of MGardevoir and Okidogi to farm wins). It also provides a lot of neutral hits into many other fighting resists, but we'll get to that later. For now, let's look at Okidogi's sets.
The first set is Assault Vest, which I mention first just to get out the way. This set is fine, it's a healthy presence in checking threats like Goodra-Hisui and wallbreaker Aegislash, and if this were Dogi's only set it would be completely reasonable. Similarly, defensive bulk up sets are very good at farming balance and stall, but don't pose nearly as strong a threat into offense. No, the set that has resulted in Okidogi's suspect is the offensive bulk up sets utilising Z crystals. I will paste this set below.
Okidogi (M) @ Poisonium Z / Fightinium Z / Groundium Z / Darkinium Z
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Gunk Shot
- High Horsepower / Knock Off / Crunch
- Bulk Up
The eagle eyed among you may realise that this Okidogi set is a little confused, with a lot of varying options. Realistically, there are two different sets represented here, one for an Adamant wallbreaker and another for a Jolly cleaner, but I represent it this way for a specific reason that I will unpack later. For now, I will split these sets up and treat them as seperate entities to avoid confusion.
Okidogi (M) @ Poisonium Z / Fightinium Z / Groundium Z / Darkinium Z
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Gunk Shot
- High Horsepower / Knock Off / Crunch
- Bulk Up
Okidogi (M) @ Groundium Z
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Close Combat
- Gunk Shot
- High Horsepower
I should point out that the Jolly set, as well as Darkinium Z Crunch sets, are much more recent innovations that have come out of the last couple of weeks of NDCL, and as of yet are relatively unproven. However, the theory is sound on both; to get a little ahead of myself, Darkinium Z essentially combines the use case of Poisonium Z and Groundium Z by targeting both Slowbro and Pecharunt, but sacrifices immediate kills into several poison neutral targets. Conversely, the Jolly set is designed to take advantage of specific Okidogi counterplay that would otherwise aim to beat it by simply outrunning the Adamant set like High Horsepower Rillaboom and Jolly Bisharp. As such, these sets will take a backseat in analysis and just be brought up when they are relevant.
With sets established, let's move onto counterplay. As always, I'll start with defensive counterplay then move onto offensive, so without further ado...
Counters
So there is a very specific mon here that is missing, which I will get to momentarily to explain why it is not listed in this section. But I do not believe that, as the tier stands and with Okidogi getting more optimised, there are any true counters to Okidogi. Depending on which Z crystal it has equipped everything in the tier drops to something, which will be expanded on in the Checks section. So let's get into that.
Checks
The elephant in the room and probably the main hot take of this post. I said in the council chats while we were discussing Okidogi's suspect that if Groundium Z sets ever became more popular, I would end up calling for a quick ban. Well, Groundium Z sets have proven themselves both theoretically sound and capable of winning games in the highest level of competition. I am not calling for a quick ban, as at this point it would be redundant given we're already towards the end of Okidogi's suspect and these sets are still very underutilised, but it does mean that I am no longer able to consider Pecharunt a true counter to Okidogi, removing the one form of reliable defensive counterplay available. Similarly, Pecharunt doesn't immediately threaten Okidogi with any form of damage short of using up its Z crystal, and is often forced to come in on High Horsepower given how telegraphed its switch in is due to it typically being the only way of switching into Okidogi on any team it finds itself on. This then forces it to recover and thereby be exploited by several dangerous breakers, like Tyranitar and Hydreigon. That said, this does not mean Pecharunt is not a solid answer to Okidogi wherever it shows up. Poisonium Z sets are the standard at the moment, with Fightinium Z being the most common afterwards. Groundium Z and Darkinium Z sets are very much the minority, but as Pecharunt's usage increases I can only assume these sets will become more and more common, only to then ebb away as Pecharunt's usage drops and other checks rise in its place. I cannot see a world where this cycle could ever become healthy for the tier.
The next most common check, Slowbro is much easier to go through since the theory is so well discussed. Put simply, Poisonium Z became more popular than Fightinium Z purely to match the rise of teams using Slowbro as a pivot to position around Okidogi. Ignoring crits and factoring in miss chances, using Gunk Shot into Poisonium Z has a 70% chance to kill 248/252+ Slowbro from full health (thank you 3MoreMinutes for calculating this). To attack it from another angle, +1 Poisonium Z has an 18.8% chance to kill from full, becoming a 93.8% chance to kill if Slowbro is either Colbur Berry over boots, has had its boots knocked off, or was poisoned on a previous attempt to pivot through Dogi. Keep note of the poison aspect here, we'll come back to that shortly. Versus a Poisonium Z Okidogi, Slowbro is just not enough to handle it on its own. It is much too likely to die on the first interaction, and even less likely to hold long enough for the rest of your team to beat past the Okidogi player's team unless every single other team member is designed to prevent Okidogi from entering. Having tried to build teams like this, the process is exhausting and severely limiting, particularly if you choose to respect the option of Jolly Okidogi, something I myself have only been convinced is viable very recently. So if you don't want to build this way, your only option is to use a secondary check alongside Slowbro, such as...
The final part of the "Dogi isn't broken we promise," trifecta, Hippowdon is the original wall that Okidogi went over the top of with Fightinium Z. With the shift towards Poisonium Z, it brings itself back into the equation as a way to check those sets. That said, Fightinium Z has not completely died away, showing up occasionally as an excellent way to break through the Hippowdon / Celesteela cores that appear on what little remains of balance in the tier. On top of that, there is an ever present threat looming over particularly Hippowdon, but also every other non-poison type check to Okidogi; the poison chance upon clicking Gunk Shot. Gunk Shot's own poison chance is only 30%. Similarly, Toxic Chain only procs 30% of the time, and Gunk Shot is an inaccurate move. That said, clicking Gunk Shot into a team with no poison status immune results in a 51% chance to poison. Particularly for Hippowdon, but also for all other non-regenerator non-poison immune check to Okidogi, this is very often crippling should a poison proc occur. If it happens early enough in a game, this alone can often provide enough advantage to win the game over time. Similarly, Bulk Up on the wallbreaker set allows Okidogi to beat Hippowdon on the switch regardless of Z crystal; going to +2 results in CC just 2HKOing Hippowdon while taking about 80% in the trade, or only taking 70% if Poisonium Z is used in the interaction. This does allow Okidogi to be picked off by a revenge killer, but often times this is already too late. The wallbreaker has broken, and now anything else Hippowdon was meant to check, which is a huge chunk of the tier, is much more easily able to push through. On top of this, Okidogi's health is much less useful for it than a dedicated wall like Hippowdon since a wallbreaker does not need health to click attacks, so it is almost certain that this trade will always be favourable for the Okidogi player. All this is to say Hippowdon is also a very poor check to Okidogi, if it can even be considered one.
Mega Sableye is a slightly awkward one. Strictly speaking, Mega Sableye should be a full counter to Okidogi. However, it is a stall exclusive. So unless you're able to switch between it and Skarmory perfectly for the whole game, Mega Sableye will inevitably get either Poisoned or Toxiced, completely crippling it. This same principle applies to Quagsire, which also will often have to eat several Close Combats over the course of the game while trying to recover.
I'm going to sum this up with one calc.
+1 252+ Atk Okidogi All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 390-460 (96.5 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Calling Swampert an Okidogi check is like trying to suggest that Serperior can break Celesteela. Technically, it is possible if you either get lucky or play perfectly. 1v1 you can at least pivot out, which is something. But it's not nearly enough to consider it a check in my books given that CC into Fight Z just kills switching in, on top of the aforementioned poison coin flip from gunk shot.
And before anyone says anything, defensive Buzzwole is not real and has not been real for months. Offensive is the only set worth running in the current meta; defensive deals no damage and gets no room to do anything other than recover. Then even if you did decide to run defensive, Okidogi can just go to +2 and kill you anyway while taking minimal damage. On top of this, Buzzwole is actually slower than Okidogi, which is the main reason that I do not think the HP invest on Okidogi is ever worth it anymore. The 241-244 speed tier is so congested at the moment that you are much better off just running max speed to beat out Buzzwole rather than trying to edge out margins of HP that, in practice, don't actually do anything meaningful.
At this point, you should be starting to see what I meant when I said that everything in the tier drops to one Z move or another. Pecharunt dies to Groundium Z or Darkinium Z. Slowbro dies to Poisonium Z or Darkinium Z. Hippowdon and Swampert die to Fightinium Z. This in and of itself could be considered an issue with Z moves themselves rather than just Okidogi, but I would disagree with that argument on account of Okidogi being the only mon in the tier that can run this huge a variety of Z crystals all theoretically on one set. The only other mon that gets close is Keldeo, which can theoretically run any of Fightinium Z, Waterium Z or Flyinium Z, but that has significant problems with immediate power that Okidogi doesn't.
The biggest problem with all this is that, realistically, none of these mons can actually be considered even really a check beyond Pecharunt. A check, by definition, still has to be able to switch into Okidogi at least temporarily. Take Victini checking Mega Gardevoir, or Rotom-Wash checking nearly every physical threat in the tier (Dogi not included; running enough speed to creep Adamant Dogi just means you lose all your physical bulk, so it's better off staying at 241 for Jolly Tyranitar and Aegislash). At least with these checks they are able to switch in a couple times on either resisted moves or coverage moves that these threats are forced to utilise. This is just not the case for Okidogi, as, aside from Pecharunt, all of these supposed checks are folded immediately by a combination of set up into Z move or just attacking twice, all from its STAB options that it will be consistently clicking. If they are able to come in at full without taking damage, such as by doubling in or on a double down, sure these defensive options can check Okidogi, but this is never a guarantee. So you end up in a scenario where, to handle Okidogi consistently, defensive options are simply not good enough. It very quickly becomes a question of which mon to risk sacrificing rather than which check you're going to rely on, before just going to a revenge killer.
Speaking of, let's move onto some offensive counterplay.
Offensive Answers
This tier really revolves around sets of three brokens huh. Mega Gardevoir has seen no end to its controversy in the tier, see Runo's post for context, but for the present we're here to talk about Okidogi. In recent days Mega Gardevoir has switched away from its traditional Psyshock + Taunt set to instead run Psychic + Will o' Wisp, making it significantly better at breaking past its traditional counterplay. This becomes relevant for Okidogi because Mega Gardevoir is probably the tier's best way of making progress off of catching Okidogi trying to switch in with a pivot move or a double. That said, Gardevoir itself can't really switch in for the same reason that Scizor struggles to switch in against MGarde itself; while it 4x resists Close Combat, Gunk Shot would instantly evaporate it. So this ends up being more of a revenge killer than offensive check.
The one limiting factor about Okidogi is that it's decently easy to at least chip it when it first comes in. This works to Hydreigon's advantage, as anything other than the Choice Specs set is strictly speaking incapable of killing Okidogi from full health with Draco Meteor, but a lot of the time unboosted sets are still capable of revenging Okidogi after it's taken chip. That said, we run into the same problem as Mega Gardevoir where Hydreigon is unable to switch in on CC and only just capable of eating Gunk Shot from full, so most of the time it has to either be pivoted in or come in to revenge kill.
We continue on a trend of faster psychics, which would mostly just be repeating the points from Mega Gardevoir. The only difference here is that Mega Latias cannot breeze through opposing defensive counterplay as easily as it's fairy type counterpart in return for always being able to switch in once in front of Okidogi. That said, it still takes a horrific amount of damage from unboosted Gunk Shot, very often forcing a recovery particularly under Stealth Rocks, so it can't be relied on for a switch in more than that first time because of how hard it can be to recover Mega Latias all the way to full. But this is the first true piece of offensive counterplay we have.
Arguable tier king Mega Aerodactyl continues to hold the tier together, or at least attempt to. Using much the same theory as Hydreigon, Okidogi is usually not able to pick up a boost without taking at least some form of chip, so Dual Wingbeat can very effectively force Okidogi out while dealing respectable damage to anything not named Slowbro, Hippowdon or Swampert. That said, and once again tell me if you've heard this before, Mega Aerodactyl is incapable of switching into Close Combat under Stealth Rocks. At least this is slightly more of a hurdle to clear, but it is generally a reasonable assumption that Stealth Rocks will be up in a good number of games. This once again means a decent proportion of the time it will be relegated to revenge killing, though it's at least more likely to be able to properly check Okidogi.
This is in many situations just worse Mega Gardevoir, so many of the same points apply and I'll be keeping this brief. Enamorus at least has the advantage of being able to fully take advantage of all of Okidogi's coverage on top of Close Combat, but still gets nuked by Gunk Shot and has to rely on the much weaker Earth Power to revenge Okidogi compared to Mega Gardevoir's STAB Psychic.
Fast Psychic #3 revenges Okidogi, but can't switch in.
A HO exclusive, but is offensive counterplay. That said, you do have to burn Z to get a reliable flying type attack, and often times Moltres Galar is forced to set up the first turn it is out to avoid just getting walled by other members of the Okidogi player's team, allowing Okidogi to potentially stay in and just nail it with a Close Combat that can just kill after rocks. This does again make Goltres more of a revenge killer, but for HO that's less of an issue.
As I mentioned earlier, Rillaboom can tech High Horsepower on Choice band sets to potenitally OHKO an Okidogi trying to switch in on its Grassy Glide. That said, this is the first time the Jolly set can rear its head to stymie some offensive counterplay, very handily outspeeding specifically Adamant Rillaboom while maintaining a little bulk. That said, High Horsepower is also very much a tech option, as Rillaboom would much rather be running Knock Off in that slot to force at least a little progress into Celesteela. Similarly, a lot of the time Okidogi will be coming in on a forced Grassy Glide or simply after a sac, and Rillaboom also can't come in on Okidogi for fear of Gunk Shot. So this once again falls into the role of either revenge killer, or a victim of the Jolly set.
This is basically a reprisal of Rillaboom, except Bisharp requires steelium Z and a boost to kill Okidogi from full, so this is hard to even call a revenge killer. Unboosted Z does at least start killing from 80% on Okidogi, which can sometimes clear the bar, but Okidogi having either picked up a boost, taken the kill without damage, or being the Jolly set prevents this from working.
Honorable mentions to Mega Altaria and Special Pivot Victini here which are lesser used options due to having several awkward match ups, but also fit into this category of struggling to switch in but being able to threaten good damage if they can hit the field.
Once again a pattern has emerged from all of this; nothing actually switches into Okidogi reliably other than exactly Mega Latias, which has its own issues to contend with. So we're in a situation with Okidogi where neither its defenive nor offensive counterplay options can ever truly switch in reliably, forcing you to play around its coverage every time it gets in. This brings me to the crux of my argument, and the reason I believe Okidogi needs to be banned. At the beginning of this post, I represented Okidogi's set with a very muddled paste containing all of its options that I've discussed. That is because there is absolutely no way to know which set it is running on team preview.
When you load into a match and see Okidogi on the opposing team, you have three potential options. The first is the least likely, which is that you can identify the Assault Vest set being necessary on their team structure, which makes everything a lot easier. The second is to try and ignore most of Okidogi's variants and instead focus your counterplay on assuming your opponent is using the Poisonium Z set, which is the most popular method in use. This is the method that has seen the most success, as it is often a correct assumption, but playing into Poisonium Z will inevitably lead you into games where you just get blown up by one of the variants. The third and final option is to instead not make any assumptions, and try to play around all of these sets at once, which is what results in you having to look at that original Okidogi set and try and figure out how on earth you're meant to account for all of its options at once.
The short answer for this third option is that you can't. Which means the only solution you have left is to build your team in a way that prevents Okidogi from ever hitting the field, which creates the insane amount of restriction that it forces in the builder. This culminates in what Danbear02 above me mentioned, with the tier being centralised around Bulky Offense as a team style, which can follow this philosophy of just never letting Okidogi hit the field. Where I would disagree is the idea that this is mostly an issue with Pecharunt and Mega Gardevoir. In each of these cases, there are mons you can place on teams that prevent either of these threats from taking off; Blissey and Celesteela leap to mind as immediate examples to either pivot through or straight up wall them. Okidogi just does not have this option, which is what has resulted in the tier not just being centralised around BO, but BO instead being the only viable team style available if you want a consistent game plan into most of the meta.
In my opinion, the pressure that Okidogi exerts both in the builder and in game is way too intense to be healthy. There are other points I would like to make regarding Dogi boxing out slower normal and dark types, as well as dark type coverage on mons that would otherwise enjoy running it (like Dogi itself), which is resulting in Pecharunt being such an issue, but this post is already way longer than I intended it to be. The sheer uncertainty you face when seeing it on team preview on account of its abuse of Z crystals is untenable, and as a result I will be voting to Ban Okidogi.
Aight so I accomplished this in like 2 hours. Proof below.
(Proof)
And honestly, with Moth banned, this tier is slowly becoming a fatter tier. More BO I’ve seen, a few stall, a. . painful attempt at HO with lead Mew. Yeah this tier is becoming balanced again. Which I love. This tier was always a bit of a getaway when it came to Natdex and I’ve always enjoyed playing it especially with Danbear and Rafadude on ladder.
I honestly do not believe Dogi should be banned. And I’ll provide some good examples on just how easy it is to truly counter this dog. Enjoy.
(earthquake + choice band)
these are a few, yes Dogi has wall breaking capabilities. That’s the point of wall breakers. If you can not handle a mon designed to be a wall breaker then that is simply a builder issue and all you gotta do is think of an easier solution. Dogi does not restrict building, to what I saw. I will be voting DNB. Toodles!
50% +1 pro-ban majority of ban is required for a ban, and no further Do Not Ban votes can alter the result. Therefore, Okidogi is now banned from SV National Dex UU. Tagging dhelmise to implement, thank you!
Thank you to all who have voted. The vote will remain open for until the deadline to allow the remaining people with voting requirements to vote and have their vote count towards the Tiering Contributor badge if they so please.
