Announcement SV National Dex Suspect #21 - Black Dog

[Hovercat2475]

Got reqs using this bulky offense: https://pokepast.es/7b80fba9cae3ed72
After playing both with and against it a decent bit while laddering, I am leaning pretty heavily towards Do Not Unban. In practice, Zamazenta-C's sheer bulk and new steel typing allowed it to muscle through stuff too reliably, especially in tandem with its partners making defensive counterplay very often unreliable.

Checks Regardless of Set:

Zapdos needs heat wave to beat this consistently, and even then, spamming stone edge means they have to drain all of their roosts. Not to mention +6 Body Press killing in two, meaning you have to either spend more roosts fishing or just hope for the para. Due to the pressure Zama has if you give it free turns, the Zama user can also just stone edge to catch the switch if you're slightly chipped. Either way, Zapdos is under a lot of pressure from checking other pokemon, such as Ogerpon-Wellspring or Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, and this feels like a much shakier check than it first appears to be.
/ / /
These are pretty solid checks, but its definitely worth mentioning these get chunked by pursuit or have to worry about crunch defense drops. Gholdengo especially is a key defensive piece who has to deal with a lot of stuff already, on top of Zamazenta. In practice, I found Gambit was able to deal with these quite effectively and allow Zamazenta to go pretty crazy.

This thing definitely walls to infinity, but again it has to deal with Zama's teammates, like Ogerpon-Wellspring or Sub Volcarona. Kind of pedantic but definitely worth mentioning in my opinion since Zamazenta's pressure is crazy.

Earth Power chunks pretty hard but so does Heavy Slam meaning you have to keep Venusaur healthy, which is hard given hazards and Zama's teammates. In testing, despite having this and a Zapdos, Zamazenta-C was still a very scary threat to face, and relying on Venusaur alone to check it isn't great.
+ Earth Power
Another solid check, but again Landorus-T has a lot to check and is a mon vulnerable to being worn down throughout the game before Zamazenta comes in.
Checks That Lose to Coverage:
/ / /
Heavy Slam or Stone Edge just beats them, nothing to say here.
Offensive Counterpay
+ / + /
All three of these, due to Zamas steel typing and bulk, aren't enough to handle it on their own, as they can't actually do that much damage. These are very good to have and help for sure, but they also really put on display Zama's bulk and the strength of its new steel typing.

When laddering, despite having a ghost type in Ceruledge, a Mega-Venusaur, and a Zapdos, Zamazenta-C was incredibly threatening. Its insane bulk gives it plenty of setup opportunities, and its speed with the power of boosted Body Press and Heavy Slam makes its counterplay very limited, especially since you have to deal with its teammates. On paper, Zamazenta-C has some nice traits that benefit the tier, but in practice, this pokemon is just too much to deal with and is best kept out of the meta.

 

[Spectral Thief]

I get reqs.And I will be voting unban on Zamazenta-Crowned.
After playing a significant number of games on the ladder, I don’t believe Zamazenta-C has any qualities that justify remaining banned. On paper it looks threatening, but in practice it comes with very real and meaningful constraints.
First, it is item-locked into Rusted Shield. That alone is a major opportunity cost. Unlike many other top threats, it cannot customize its item to adapt to different matchups. It also lacks reliable recovery, which is a huge limitation for a Pokémon that often relies on Iron Defense sets to function. Once it takes chip damage, it stays chipped. Additionally, Dauntless Shield only activates once. It is not continuously snowballing defensive boosts—its initial bulk is strong, but manageable over the course of a game.
More importantly, the current metagame already has a large number of consistent answers that check or outright wall Zamazenta-C regardless of its set. Pokémon such as Pecharunt, Gholdengo, Toxapex, Dondozo, Zapdos, Clodsire, Mega Venusaur, and Skeledirge all provide reliable counterplay. These are not niche picks; they are already viable or commonly used in the tier. Even Zamazenta-Hero form itself serves as a solid check to Zamazenta-Crowned.
Because of this, Zamazenta-C does not overcentralize building. Teams are not forced into running obscure or suboptimal answers just to avoid losing on preview. The tools to handle it are already present in standard structures.
In fact, I would argue that Zamazenta-C adds positive defensive utility to the tier. It provides counterplay to strong physical attackers such as Kingambit and Ogerpon, helping keep those threats in check without introducing unhealthy pressure of its own.
In practice, Zamazenta-C feels strong but fair. It has clear strengths, clear weaknesses, and abundant counterplay. I do not see a compelling competitive reason for it to remain banned.

For these reasons, I will be voting to unban.

 

[lyra__4]

I just gave some of my thoughts on the potential of Zamazenta-Crowned centered meta in another discussion post so I will be focusing on addressing criticisms raised in defense of BAN. And of course I intend to vote DNB as of now.

The main criticisms against Zamazenta-Crowned is that while it may not be broken, it is unhealthy. I've seen people argue it can easily spiral out of control which makes it difficult to play against in-game and that it's suffocating to build around due to it's good matchup against offensive teams. And these offensive teams, especially Hyper Offense has been the defining archetype of this tier. Now I want to clarify two terms "Broken" and "Unhealthy", I do feel sometimes people interpret them differently so to avoid confusion here is what I intend when I use them: Broken means a Pokemon has no viable counterplay. Unhealthy means a Pokemon is considered bad for the tier, which does not tell you much on it's own. It follows that broken Pokemon are unhealthy and that not all unhealthy Pokemon are considered broken. In fact every tier has Pokemon that many would consider unhealthy but my point is... There is not an absolute rule, in other words saying something is "unhealthy" does not prove it needs to be banned, only that it is banworthy. Often times we don't even need a reason for why something is unhealthy but still allow it, the burden of proof always falls on how far on the spectrum it is leaning towards bad. Though I will make the argument that Zamazenta-Crowned can actually be good for the tier and when people claim it is only bad, they are being shortsighted.

"Zamazenta-Crowned is broken in-game"
I believe this should be the core of our discussion. On paper, Zamazenta-Crowned is clearly not broken, despite its amazing stats it has many obvious flaws. It's Attack stat is relatively mediocre and because it cannot hold an item or boost it's Attack, its incredibly predictable and it is strictly limited by the roles it can perform. So the question is why do we view this Pokemon as "broken in-game", or better than what is reflected on paper? To preface, I'm not speaking dogmatically so please I invite you all to refute me on this point and offer why you believe Zamazenta-Crowned appears to be better in-game than on paper. Well I got this idea from my friend, while we were discussing the topic in lengthy detail he raised a brilliant point and makes me most sympathetic to why Zamazenta-Crowned should be banned. Zamazenta-Crowned compared to one of it's checsks like Toxapex, has way less value to a team at least in the long form which if you're playing against it can reinforce beliefs it's purely a mathcup fish for offense. A reductionist would probably say it's only role is to run away with games and not actually providing that much value to teams compared to Toxapex who is relied on to check other Pokemon and having to stay healthy for Zamazenta-Crowned can leave it to be overwhelmed. I'm obviously aware that Toxapex and Zamazenta-Crowned perform different roles but it does make you wonder... is Zamazenta-Crowned is just a stat-stick that can fit on any team to enhance the matchup verses offensive teams? This is a valid concern, hence why I labeled this the core of the discussion but now I will share my opinion on why Zamazenta-Crowned should be unbanned.


My Response
Having laid out what I believe the most compelling case for pro-ban, it seems counter-intuitive to refute everything I just said. And I logically support all of those points, though I drew a different conclusion than what some might have. Perhaps just a difference in perspective, which is fascinating how people can look at the same thing and draw different conclusions but I digress..

While some see Zamazenta-Crown's presence as restrictive or unhealthy especially in the builder, I see it the other way. Zamazenta-Crowned is a restrictive.. rather a healthy presence in the tier. And the last time I will emphasize my ackowledgement of both arguements to ensure clarity, the arguement I present is not a refuation of Zamazenta-Crown's unhealthy traits but rather my observation of the tiers volatility. Hyper Offense or loosely defined Offenses, especially variants of Mega-Diancie teams and Zamazenta screens but them being at the center of the meta are not signs of a stabalized meta. HO is the defining archetype of National Dex OU, as a result of loading the strongest archetype in the tier you risk HO mirrors which are practically coin flips. The meta has reached a point of saturation, nothing else feels rewarding to load or build without feeling incomplete. Zamazenta-Crowned narrows down the options of HO and surely diminishes it's presence in the tier as players start to adapt especially with balance and bulky offense. There are options like Nasty Plot Pecharunt, Gholdengo, maybe Ceruledge, Volcarona, if not Stone Edge (there is some 4MSS because once you factor in IDBP you have to drop one of Heavy Slam, Stone Edge or Crunch for coverage, on top of the fact not all will use 3a). Although HO struggles immensely with it and while I don't see that as a bad thing, it isn't unwinnable either. In fact the primary goal of HO is to overwhelm your opponent with multiple setup sweepers and breakers, and stacking early hazards. You don't even need Spikes as it is now, most HO teams I've fought settle for just Stealth Rocks and they do their best to deny Stealth Rocks from going up on their side. HO should use Rocky Helmet and Spikes to pressure Zamazenta-Crown's switchins and having at least one way to force it out so you can overwhelm it later. For example Rocky Helmet Garchomp with Dragon Tail is a good lead that deters Zamazenta-Crown while threatening to get up both hazards. I view Zamazenta-Crowned as a skill check. You cannot just lead off with it and win, even into HO which is undeniably it's best matchup. It requires good positioning from both players, the Zamazenta-Crowned player has to be cautious of the fact it has no recovery, no item and effectievly loses it's ability once it switches out. And every other archetype has means to pressure this Pokemon very well. As a consequence of Zamazenta-Crowned the metagame will likely slow down but I don't see this as a bad thing. Last thing, on the topic of building restrictions and the fear of building losing it's creativity.. All tiers have building restrictions and too much diversity in building is a bad thing. I would go as far to say Zamazenta-Crowned gives many more teams playability and even still this is preferable to building new variants of the same team. All metas stabalize eventually, we've seen the outcome of this meta and it is unlikely if Zamazenta-Crowned is banned that any further changes to the tier will occur. Ogerpon-Wellspring is not going to be suspected again, neither will Tera, Darkrai, Dragapult, Z-moves, Solgaleo and even if Volcarona or Magearna are suspected I sense that a DNB in this suspect wouldn't favor action on those Pokemon. So I suppose the question becomes are you satisfied with the tier as it is now? If not and you're still pro-ban then how do you imagine the tier will change in the future?

Admittedly I was going to make a longer post but if you've ever read my posts before the longer they go on the worse they get. That's probably the consequence of writing it all in one sitting and not giving myself time to breathe, so I end up letting my hands do the thinking for me. I might make another post in this thread if I have more to say, though if not then I probably won't post for a while in National Dex threads unless something else happens. Anyways, share your thoughts on Zamazenta-Crowned, what do you think is the most important factor to consider this suspect test?

I agree with this post and will also be voting Unban on Zamazenta crowned. I don’t have much time to write up a long post right now so I’ll just leave out a few of my brief thoughts on why it should be unbanned, as well as some issues I take with the calcs that people like to throw around:

1) like what thebestever543 said, I believe that the unbanning of Zamazenta-C will help with the problem where NDOU is currently oversaturated with various offensive teams that just feels old and boring after a while. On my climb up to 2000 elo it did feel as tho the higher I went the more the teams tended to polarise either towards stall or some offense team and TBE lays out here really well how Zama-C will help to slow down and centralise the meta

2) I believe many calcs I see being thrown around are misleading. let us look at the calcs provided by nimzowitsch.

For reference:

108 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 176-210 (45.3 - 54.1%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO
148 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 102-121 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Psychic Terrain: 144-169 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 204-240 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Latios-Mega Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-182 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 151-178 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So these calcs assume a max HP Zama-C, which I believe is a terrible set that no one will run in the long run. Why? Because with no attack or defense investment, Zama-C will struggle to KO many fighting resists such as slowbro, zapdos (0 atk stone edge is doing nothing), phys def glowking, etc etc (just about any special attacking fighting resist that isn’t also weak to steel). And especially if you don’t run crunch, Zama will be completely unable to touch the ghost types like Goldengo and pencharunt.
many people might then also go on about paring Zama-C with a pursuit user to remove the ghost types, but in my experience running pursuit gambit it’s really not that simple. Many gholdengo often carry focus blast, resulting in an annoying 50/50 between pursuit and sucker punch - and often bulky ghold will be able to live a sucker punch without sufficient supreme overlord boosts. And if Zama-C does not have crunch it might not be able to pick off that weakened ghold, and if it does have crunch you’re gna have to take multiple hits from a scarf Lele as you struggle to deal enough damage to it (I believe stone edge should never be dropped or else you run into problems with zard Y, moltres and zapdos)

 

[lyra__4]

I am not going to comment on the team itself you're using but something to consider is that anything that would be suspected warrants change. You should try updating it with Zamazenta-Crowned in mind, especially slotting Helmet somewhere. For the record not being sarcastic cause I know this is an older team.

The first point you're making about Zamazenta-Crowned presence requiring immediate response is worth mention. Not all of Zamazenta-Crown's checks are exploited by something like Kingambit, and the best way to punish this sort of thing from occuring multiple times where you're switching back and forth to respond to Zama, pressure with hazards. Spikes, no recovery does matter a lot. And especially if you're fighting HO and they're using Zamazenta-Crowned then it is unlikely they'll switch more than once because naturally those structures have offensive pokemon that don't appreciate taking damage for nothing. Especially if you manage to get a Spike up (easier than ever in this generation) then you further punish this from happening.

I guess we can agree to disagree on balance/bo being the biggest loser of Zamazenta-Crowned in the tier, I can't predict the future. I don't really understand the reason why either. I think good positioning should be encouraged and the tier already feels heavily offense oriented. You only really see similar variants of HO and offense and BO teams. I do not know any good balance teams that exist in the current metagame but I have not followed tournament gameplay recently.

also I would like to add my own personal experiences to the point TBE makes regarding Zama-C not being broken on HO. I have not had the time to try making a proper Zama-C team so I have just been slapping it on random HO screens teams and generally almost all of the more defensive/balance teams I’ve ran into had many checks to Zama-C. Even if theoretically Zama-C can “overcome” checks such as zapdos or glowking, switching in and out, fsight + some random attack as Zama-C often can’t OHKO whatever it finds itself in front of, static para chances, combined with the fact that Zama-C can’t heal at all (not on HO at least), allow those teams to get past Zama-C on HO. Nike obviously Zama-C is still a massive threat on HO, and a new threat to prep for, but in my experience running it I didn’t see it as any more broken than say, Zard X, another potent physical breaker

Sorry my quotations are completely broken and idk how to fix this on the phone

 

[Vlarcheops]

"Just because a Pókemon is bad in Ubers, doesn't mean its balanced in NDOU!"

So, after playing on ladder using Toxic Ariados' team https://pokepast.es/0c0c3bf732d0e6da (Shoutout to the guy, this team was cool to use), I came into the conclusion that Zamazenat-Crowned is too much for the tier!

At first, I was convinced that it MAYBE could have been balanced in the NDOU metagame, but playing the ladder and using the team, I was wrong.

What some people say is that its forced to use Rusted Sword to be in its Crowned form, and yes that is a drawback no doubt, being weak to hazards is not great due to not being able to hold heavy-Duty Boots, but the thing is the only hazards that really hurt it are Spikes and Sticky Web (which isn't used much often, only usually seen in ladder). Stealth Rock does almost no damage to hit and Toxic Spikes, Zamazenta gets the Steel types so there you have it, immune to toxic. Plus with the stat boost Zamazenta gets (even if the speed is nerfed) makes it stronger.

It has 92 HP and 140 Defense and Special Defense which means this thing is hard to take down, considering the fact it can have a Defense boost the first time it enters the field and you have a disgustingly bulky sweeper. And it has the movepools for that as well with Iron Defense and Body Press which leads to the elephant in the room

So in the IronPress set it always has Iron Defense and Body Press (Well, to the surprise of nobody), and the two slots can be just anything. However it mostly wants to have another STAB move in Heavy Slam/(Behemont Bash) so there's a spot free for Zamazenta Crowned. Before I want to Speak about that, I want to talk about the checks or counters for Zamazenta Crowned on paper.

Possible Defensive Answers:


So the most mentioned here is Zapdos and on paper, people are right. It has the type combo of Flying and Electric, meaning it resists both Z-Crowned's STAB Moves in Body Press and Heavy Slam. Plus its ability Static has the chance to screw over Crowned in case it attacks Zapdos via contact, wicht it certainly does and it gets Heat Wave to hit it critically. And at last it has Roost to HOwever, there's the thing: Heat Wave is weaker than its STAB in Hurricane and it isnt even STAB, so its not like Heat Wave outright kills it. Not to mention Z-Crowned is bulky and its fasrter so it can leave the Waves and contine to boost its defense to actually beat it. Oh, and its the DEFESIVE set remind you.


Here's also another supposed check for Zamazenta-Crowned. It has Intimidate to lower Z-Crowned's attack, meaning Heavy Slam won't do much and it naturally resists Body Press due to being Flying type. And defensive Landorus is usually holding Rocky Helmet, indirectly damaging Z-Crowned. And it has STAB Earth Power to damage Zamazenta Crowned. However holding Helmet causes it to be damaged by Stealth Rock, losing 1/8 of its Health and Intimidate weakens Z-Crowned's attack not defense, meaning that Zamazenta can still hit it hard with Body Press, even if its resisted and it has Rocky Helmet. Not to mention Lando-T has no recover (Rest is a no-go!).


I dont understand how some people think this thing is really a thing that can wall Z-Crowned. Yeah it quadruple resists Body Press, but there's STAB Heavy Slam to damage it (0 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Slowking-Galar: 180-213 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO). I mean what it COULD to to Z-Crowned is paralyze it or use Future Sight, but it won't do much.

100% Defensive Answers:


Well, I don't think I need to say THAT much on why Pecharunt is strong against Zamazenta Crowned: immune to Body Press, eats Heavy Slams and Crunches easily (Well if the Crunches don't drop its defense) due to having 160 Defense while having coverage and pivoting. The thing is however it can only damage it via Hex/Shadow Ball, since Z-Crowned is immune to Malignant Chain.


Just like Zapdos, Toxapex resists bot Z-Crowned's STAB Moves and is a tanky Pókemon, has recovery in Recover and Regenrator as its ability. Plus, unlike Haze, who nullifies any stat changes, meaning that in a 1v1, Z-crowned is screwed. Plus the thing has Scald, so it can attack it, and even possibly burn it.


Ah, Dondozo, sadly you aren't that very good outside of Stall. However this thing HARD walls Z-Crowned due to being naturally incredibly physical wall, even though it doesn't resist STAB Body Press due to being a pure Water type. Thought that's not a problem thanks to Unaware. Recovery: Rest, take it or leave it. Even with using Rest and falling asleep, Dondozo can still hardwall Z-Crowned


So yeah, Gholdengo, It is immune to STAB Body Press and Resists STAB Heavy Slam. Therefore it is rightfully considered THE counter for Z-crowned given its bulky (not like Pecharunt, but still), recovery in Recover and is much more offensive than the defensive Pókemon I mentioned here. An here's the deal, it can NP in its face and wear it down with Shadow ball and Focus Blast, but it needs to be careful for Crunches as those could ruin its day (even more with Defence drops). But still, if that isn't the case, then its completely free to screw Z-crown.

Possible Offensive Answers:


*Read what I wrote preivously, I already said what had to be said*


So yeah, just like its other pal Ghost types, Ceruledge ignores STAB Body Press and, like Gholdengo and being part Fire type, it resists Heavy Slam. So that gives Ceru the chance of set-up in its face and kill it with STAB Bitter Blade, serving this move as its recovery of health. Though thing can be complicated if Z-Crowned has Crunch due to being weak to it AND having Weak Armor.


Being the second-fastest Fighting type in NDOU, Mega Lopunny could threaten to kill Z-Crowned in paper with STAB Close Combat coming form a strong 136 Attack, however due ito its monsterous bulk, Z-Crowned COULD have the chance to live (Even WITHOUT the boostz of Dauntless Shield). Oh BTW if Z-Crowned has too many Defence Boost, either you call it "Critical Hit" or done deal!


Reissting both STAB attacks, being able to kill with STAB Fire Blast/Weather Ball under sun, however be careful for Stone Edge (Even then it misses). Though you need to watch out with your health. If Yard swithes in and suffers Stealth Rock, Z-Crowned could kill it wit just the right amount of Defence boostes


Just like Yard it resists both STAB Body Press and Heavy Slam, thugh due to its poor Defence you might wanna avoid letting Z-Crowned set-up too mmany Iron Dences, otherwise the thing can outright kill Volcarona. Also don't forget Stone Edge.


Even thought its faster than Z-Crowned and can hit hard with STAB Thunderbold under Electric Terrain with Specs (or even with a Electrium-Z), Z-Crowned can tank those and damage Tapu Koko with STAB Heavy Slam with its a 2HKO. Ok, Maybe Z-Crowen could go down, but the thing is you NEED to have strong immediate power on Tapu Koko if you want to damage Z-Crowned.

So about the 4th moveslot, you'd problably won't use Substitute and Rest, leving to have either Stone Edge or Crunch, making its "checks" frightened, but what about recovery? Well..

​

The fish that doesn't die or as known as Alomomola. A pure Water type with an incredible HP of 165, average Defense and a bad Special Defense. Its ability its the always useful and annoying Regenerator What does Alomomola have to do with Z-Crowned. Alomoloa helps it with its biggest problem: a recovering via Wish. Alomoloa can Wish and use Flip Turn to switch Z-Crowned out, getting alas the wish recovery. Therefore making
seemingly unkillable.

Besides Alomomola, don't forget: there are also teammates for Z-Crowned, mainly Dark types. Why is that important? Because, its not like Z-Crowned ALONE can overpower a whole team (mostly). It needs help. Most of the problematic Pókemon I mentioned can be dealt by Bulky teammates like mentioned Alomomloa or by other Wallbreakers like Kingambit. They can just remove the checks and Z-Crowned can just set itself up and win.

Plus there are some match-ups that are just unfair/unwinnable if Z-Crowned gets the right cobverage.

At the end I decide to keep this thing away from NDOU, but I am curious to see what other people think!

Thanks for reading! Take Care! ​

 

[Magcargo]

Team Used

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Wanted to try a few underrated mons for this suspect like Krookidile & Mega Gardevoir. Thought Krookidile worked well with Zamazenta-C because it could pursuit trap some key targets such as Gholdengo and Slowking-G for it. Mega Gardevoir was moreso chosen because it had Heal Bell and its an annoying strong, fast attacker with good MUs into some of Zama-C's checks like Pex. Toxapex was my own Zama-C check. Moltres / Ferro were kinda just slap dashed onto the team.

I was surprised at how well Mega Gardevoir performed. I see this mon get trashed on all the time, but it was hard for most opps to swap into. That said, while Heal Bell was a interesting idea, it did not get as many oppurtunities to use it as I hoped. I think other mega gardevoir enjoyers should look into using either encore, wisp, or taunt in this slot. Maybe even Wish or Healing Wish.

I think this above concept has some potential - specifically the Zama-C + Krook core. However, I think optimizations could be made. I found Lando-T, Garchomp & Gliscor quite tough to deal with. Random Sub DD cheesers were also a nightmare. Still, its always nice to get reqs with a unique team I made.

After playing with extensively, I can say - with utmost certainty - that this will be the EASIEST unban vote in my life. The simple truth of the matter is that this Pokemon is not broken in the slightest and arguably.... not even that good, at least compared to . Most standard teams are packing multiple checks to this trash as is between , regular and , with fair number of other cheesers you will see on ladder also doing quite solid against it such as , etc. Not all of these are perfect checks mind you (a fair few need to scout for Stone Edge), but these all act as great deterents from Zamazenta-C being able to sweep the game.

Compared to base , I largely found this Pokemon to be a downgrade. Steel-typing is nice sure, but its double edged sword. Getting resistances to a plethora of stray hits & immunity to Toxic are indeed useful in many MUs & can give a handful of easier entry points compared to base . On the flip side, Ground-, Fire-, and Fighting coverage moves are significantly more popular as coverage moves compared to base 's weaknesses. Notably, this makes it tougher for to setup against the many Grounds in the tier like or , while most of the Pokemon it does get a setup opportunity on such as , , , and (you still force it out) will be packing super effective coverage for it, making setting up annoying. Now this on its own isn't really much of a flaw, but not being able to hold an item is a SIGNIFICANT weakness compared to base , making this Pokemon far more predictable & struggle more in various MUs. AoA sets struggle a bit more with Webs and hazard based teams because of a lack of Boots, ID + BP get worn down quicker because of a lack of leftovers to mitigate any passive damage, and Rest sets just feel like ass compared to regular because no Chesto (this is critical in the offense MU imo). Base 's ability to run random Z-moves also just makes it scarier to check, since it can run bullshit like Z-Crunch or Z-Wild Charge to burst past mons like and , while itself will usually be hard walled the entire game while these mons are still standing.

Some claim this Pokemon being allowed will make offensive teams better. From my experience, this feels like a psy-op by offense players who don't want to deal with this mon. Against most of the offenses I faced, was by far the least scary mon since it loses really hard to (which people would be using with or without ) and these Pokemon are usually paired up with other annoying MUs for it like or , so sweeping can be difficult. Honestly, I found most of the random cheesers of the week like DD and scarier to face because these Pokemon had access to Z-moves to beat their respective counters & snowball out of control, or were just harder to wall in general. Meanwhile, the teams that . performed best against WERE a lot of these different forms of offense, whether it be Veil, HO, or Grassy-Terrain, where it could abuse these teams' lack of staying power to setup and sweep. Its not an insta-win vs these teams, mind you - there are still many Pokemon on these builds like that are quite annoying for it if played well - but its quite effective and using mons like , and a few others as entry points to reverse sweep. Against balance / offense teams, this mon was typically stone walled the entire game by + had multiple other roadblocks like that needed to be significantly weakened before it could be in a position to clean. There are of course many other checks that fat has access to, between , Physically defensive for AoA sets, , Unaware for ID sets - the list of checks is immeasurable.

The argument that the tier doesn't need another big threat is fair and one I could agree with if this Pokemon and base were separate Pokemon. But they are the same Pokemon & 90% of the tactics you'd use to deal with base - Helmet Mons, status, , , , work even better against . For that reason, I see this Pokemon more as "another set" base can run rather than its own presence since most of the same tactics work. I do not see team structures that are not weak to base severely changing or struggling as a result of . If anything, 's presence gives many teams a new option to play around annoying threats such as or , with its higher bulk and ability to pivot into them more easily with its resistances to their STAB moves. I think that many teams would appreciate having a bit of extra insurance against these Pokemon & the new styles of play that can open up - in exchange for the downsides compared to base of course

TLDR; This mon has no less than 15+ checks / counters, is weak vs fat, and WORSE than an already balanced mon - For all these reasons I intend to KEEP Zamazenta-Crowned in the tier!​

 

[Runo]

https://pokepast.es/dcdb5e145d85e38b

The insane stat spread on Zamazenta-Crowned gives players a lot of agency against more offensive playstyles. Being able to outspeed and survive a couple of hits from all of Mega Diancie, Ogerpon-Wellspring, and Mega Latios makes speed tiers less congested on 110, which can reduce the amount of uncompetitive speed ties that exist in the tier. Adding onto this fact is that it can also take hits incredibly well from standard breakers such as Tapu Lele, and we essentially have a Pokemon that can be a blanket buffer or check against a vast array of top offensive breakers. This would significantly help out with matchup security issues. The amount of threats that cover Zamazenta-Crowned in addition to the amount of threats Zamazenta-Crowned itself covers ends up being a net positive in my eyes.

The team I pasted above is one that was not created with the expressed goal of using Zamazenta-Crowned, but rather because Zamazenta-Crowned felt useful to deal with things I considered to be stressful on ladder, which are those 110 speed tier threats. In addition to that it turns into an buffer against Kingambit, Moltres, Terapagos, Zapdos, and Tapu Lele. I end up having more room to play around those threats than I would've had I ran base Zamazenta, which serves as a point that Zamazenta-Crowned can in fact expand your options in the builder. Despite what people would like to portray, Zamazenta-Crowned does not exist to be solely a Iron Defense fish mon on offensive structures and provide zero value to the metagame.

I heard a lot of fears about Slowking-Galar not being a check because of Pursuit or Heavy Slam hitting too hard, as well has fairy types like Clefable not being good answers to it anymore. This would be fine concerns if not for the fact that these "problematic" interactions also exist on base Zamazenta. This is largely why I do not care super hard that Zamazenta-Crowned is legal because the constrain that people fear already exists. Now the caveat to this is that offensive revenge killers to base Zamazenta such as Iron Valiant or Scarf Tapu Lele now require more effort to take it out, but this is offset by the fact that Tapu Koko and Mega Lopunny now exist as options to revenge kill this. Which should theoretically fill this "void". void in quotations because I have to emphasize that Iron Valiant and Tapu Lele can still get the job done, they just need to put in more work.

Alomomola Wish-Passing to Zamazenta-Crowned was another issue on my mind, but I too consider it to be not as big a deal as its being made out to be. To struggle into this core but not others such as Melmetal/Gholdengo + Mola + Zamazenta/Tusk sounds like some nonsense. If Mola is getting infinite Wishes off and Zamazenta-Crowned is always able to enter the field unpunished, then I'm sorry to say but you just made a bad team. This scenario exists too hard in a vacuum to actually be worth entertaining.

While on the topic of things existing in a vacuum: the concept of unban suspects entirely? I don't really like how they are conducted in general. Is 2 weeks truly enough time to scrutinize a Pokemon? I just think about the sheer amount of time a ban suspect target gets in comparision (a lot of them get discussed for months, if not over a year, before a trigger is pulled), and it feels like 2 weeks is woefully insufficient to determine if a Pokemon is going to be a healthy presence in a metagame. When Roaring Moon was unbanned, it took months and a World Cup run to figure out that it was actually a problem element after all. Is Zamazenta-Crowned going to get that same treatment and render what is currently happening a waste of time? I wish there was a more streamlined and consise way of exploring if potential unbans would be balanced as opposed to a 2 week rush, because all it seems to do is make people hesitant. You can see said hesitations (the "I like the tier as is and I don't want to RISK it being worse" hesitations) in any unban suspect such as Deoxys-Speed and the aforementioned Roaring Moon suspect.

 

[akazacaiu]

Got my recs and i'm going to vote for ban, Zamazenta-Crowned as it is right now is not really a threat but it tries to skew teambuilding into more bulky pokemons but it fails miserably, HO teams out-offense him because bulky ghold is one of his counters while he is being used on the same HO teams where his bulkiness becomes ridiculous behind screams. Normal Zama also becomes a problem because of the difference in typing and speed, Zama is already a good pokemon and CZama just makes a pokemon with plethera of checks become insuferable to build against, while also making teams forego the soft checks they had for normal Zama, scarf lele is getting blasted to oblivion by heavy slam and iron valiant is really just a one time check were it can maybe get rid of the first +1 buff but if it's forced to switch by common pokemon like pech and pex who team up with zama it is getting outsped and killed. It also forces the teams to build with counters in mind, things like slowbro, pex, pech, ghold and zapdos but with minimal teambuilding thought CZama becomes a mon that's very hard to build against, most of his counters are weak to kingambit/ttar or MLatios, mons who are already present in the metagame, Zapdos is an even stranger case where with some minor tweaking in EVs zama can 2shot Zapdos with +5 body press. In general i think that CZama puts even more strain on teambuilding and promotes a more toxic metagame in general.

 

[Kyo]

played natdex again for the first time in forever just for these reqs. i will be completely honest i dont rly care one way or another if this gets unbanned or not. i feel like this is kind of a nothingburger mon that basically does all the same things as regular zama except it cant sub on you. that's not to say that it's bad but like if u try to counter this with fairy types and die to bash you've basically lost to a set that base zama could have used too if it cared about running heavy slam more than it did sub. this is just a slightly better option for 3 attacks press zama that gives you stab on steel moves. the speed tier is still a drawback, it loses to base zama, and having a secondary steel type defensively is a double edged sword, probably voting unban

 

[Medasus]

https://pokepast.es/2be7f4fe8085de9f Loaded this for like 30 games and realised my zama c mirror was awful
https://pokepast.es/5446626437a96db6 Loaded this for final 10 games and went 10-0

Ended up HOmaxxing caus I was on a train and had no access to calcdex on my phone

Just got my reqs and im prolly gonna be voting Do not Unban on zama.

Now it may just be personal bias since I loaded a team that required at least some element of luck to beat Zama Crowned, but in practice a lot of these "potential checks listed" don't really check Zama at all. The main defensive counterplay I saw for it throughout my run was a mixture of Pech, Pex and Zap, all of which do the job relatively well bar Zap if you're not packing Hurricane or if you let it get too many boosts, but you cant blame that on Zama really. Other supposed checks include Gking, Ghold, Slowbro and Volc / Molt / Yard, all of which Zama is able to muscle through with a Crunch drop or by slotting Stone Edge somewhere. Gking, Ghold, Slowbro and Pecha all semi work as checks without getting unlucky, especially Pecharunt who in and of itself is probably one of the best Zama C answers out there. The problem lies when you pair Zama with a pursuit trapper of some form, likely Kingambit which has very good interactions into all of them, particularly with defiant and parting shot against Pecharunt. There are other more fringe checks as well like Mega Venusaur which actually do the job pretty well, but being forced to run 1 of it, Pecharunt, Toxapex and Zapdos or risk not being able to cover its coverage defensively makes it in my opinion unhealthy for the tier and a restriction in the builder that just isn't needed. Offensively there are also fewer checks due to its good defensive typing when paired with its defense boost, with the main options being Zamazenta Hero, Mega Lopunny and Urshifu R, none of which can efficiently revenge kill it if it has Dauntless Shield in play, or specially orientated options such as Z Koko and Scarf Lele, both of which require some chip on Zama to be able to kill it. Its also really good into HO, which I dont necessarily think is a bad thing but its something to bear in mind

The additional Steel-typing and STAB Heavy Slam also makes it much harder to deal with. Mons that could generally beat Zama Hero like Clef, Hatt and Ival struggle a lot more with Zama being able to threaten them all with Heavy Slam. It also provides Zama with a Toxic immunity against things like Mola, as well as a generally better defensive profile. These give Zama Crowned far more chances to setup Iron Defenses and spiral out of control than Zama Hero on top of making it just much harder to kill in general lol.

However its not like Zamazenta Crowned is completely broken in every way. The slightly lower speed stat than base Zama Hero does leave it vulnerable to threats such as the aforementioned Zama Hero, Mega Lopunny and potentially even Z Koko after some chip, while often fatter builds are going to be hard for it to break down without significant chip beforehand. While all of these definitely make Zamazenta not broken, its strain it poses on the builder and often in game in my opinion makes it unhealthy for the tier.

Sorry if this came across as rambling or if I articulated my points badly, I did reqs and wrote this on a train, but I do think Zamazenta is a net negative for the tier, although it is relatively borderline so it wouldn't be the end of the world if it was freed.

Peace

 

[Kuhrrohsion]

Just hit reqs (took like 40 games im washed ) and I can very confidently say that

I'm voting Do Not Unban on Zamazenta-Crowned.​

The dog's increased bulk, access to a better defensive typing, and ability to flex between several coverage options to react to the metagame and its team's needs, in my opinion, promotes incredibly unhealthy building and play. The mon's ability to look at a team, click Iron Defense once, and win on the spot is unparalleled. Though mons like and others are cited to be counters to the dog, its ability to set up massive offensive presence + sustain in so little time, plus its ability to Just Switch Out, leads very few of these to actually check the dog long-term, especially when paired with everyone's favorite metagame presence:

​

The fish is, in my experience, Zamazenta-Crowned's favorite partner bar-none; of all of Zamazenta's listed counters, only can actually threaten both at the same time; all others simply invite the fish in for a free Flip Turn or Wish. This, in conjunction with what I think is Zamazenta-Crowned's best set — Iron Defense / Body Press / Stone Edge / Heavy Slam — means that the only real consistent and long-term answers to Zamazenta-Crowned are . This alone is reason to not allow this thing into the tier, but one other potentially-damning Zamazenta-Crowned teammate that the Gardevoir G... roup and I yapped about for a bit is:

​

Tapu Lele is one of Zamazenta-Crowned's best teammates; holding a or (the latter of the two items can flex between Future Sight and Calm Mind) can allow it to muscle through nearly every single one of Zamazenta-Crowned's switchins. Along with being a generally phenomenal progress-maker and having no overlapping weaknesses with the dog, its insane offensive output blows Zapdos the hell up:

+1 252 SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Psychic Terrain: 610-718 (159.2 - 187.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Psychic Terrain: 441-519 (115.1 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

...and dumpsters the two Poisons so thoroughly I don't even need to post the calc;

252 SpA Tapu Lele sneeze in their direction (7 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pecharunt in Psychic Terrain: 1794-2112 (473.3 - 557.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

...leaving a lone Gholdengo as the only long-term reliable counter to the building that Zamazenta-Crowned inspires — and that's if the Lele doesn't manage to catch it chipped, Sp. Def drop it, or choose to simply draft Shadow Ball into one of its moveslots.

---

I think the dog seems borderline right now because it's been so little time since it was let on parole, but with metagame developments — possibly such as the ones I listed, possible such as others — it'd quickly become clear that this thing couldn't hope to be healthy for the tier. I'm open to any counterpoints, but genuinely don't think there're any real or convincing arguments that could make this thing seem reasonable — regardless, whether you agree or not with my assessment, thanks for reading all the way through

 

[alex20101010]

Just got reqs today and I'm gonna vote ban.
team: https://psim.us/t/1490017-jtl06q4q6t8gjujwnli4
Not good at writing so I don't wanna say anything lol

 

[Heatranator]

I just got reqs, took longer to do then expected since I got haxxed in the last few games (whoever is running AP Jirachi and Blaziken Veil, fuck you) but I finally did it. I will be voting Do Not Unban.

While Zama-C has answers, that was never the issue to begin with. The issue rather, is how a large chunk of them are invalidated by very simple partners to zama, how it affects certain playstyles, and how it does not provide enough benefits to unban it.


I'll start with the first section. Zama's counters are broadly seperated into 4 categories. Those who are destroyed by zama's coverage, those who are destroyed by pursuit, those who are destroyed by f-sight, and those who are able to check it regardless.
For the first category, this is primarily the fairies and the fires, those being moltres+volcarona. These should not be used as answers, as getting ripped apart by a random stone edge is the quickest way to lose.
The second category covers the ghosts and psychics, those being gholdengo, pecharunt, slowbro, glowking and m-latios. Pursuit mons are great partners for zama, primarily gambit and m-ttar, though weavile and even krookodile are serviceable enough. Considering stuff like these are considered main checks to zama-c, this doesn't exactly give confidence for me.
The third category covers the poisons, primarily those being toxapex and m-venu. Lele is already an amazing partner, not only helping against priority like bolt t-clap, but also can annoy a lot of switch ins to zama-c. Glowking is also a great partner to Zama-C while Slowbro is probably alright. These are mons that are also meant to hard wall them and just don't if zama-c is paired with good mons.
Finally, we have the mons that wall it regardless. These two are Zapdos and Lando-T. Lando-T is very prone to getting chipped and overwhelmed by teammates very quickly, which is not exactly great for it. Thus its only Zapdos, which yeah sure it hard counters it, but also thats one mon that doesn't lose regardless of set.
Now, you might say, "But what about offensive counterplay" but unless your name is ID Zama-H, you aren't beating it. M-loppuny just can't do enough to a boosted Zama-C while Scarf Lele and Booster Val also die and don't do too much (at best booster val encores it into id or bp but that is not reliable). Tapu Koko also doesn't really do too much unless its Specs or Electrium Z, pivot and such do jack to it. This heavily restricts how you can answer Zama-C, typically leading to teams doubling or tripling on counterplay.


Now, you might think thats fine, doubling up on counterplay isn't exactly the sign of a broken pokemon and these mons typically fit well together. On your usual balance team doing something like scarf lele+zapdos+pex isn't exactly bad. Thats where the secondary issue comes in. For balance teams, you typically can answer it and very effectively. Maybe if some counterplay gets nuked then you might be a bit screwed but you can usually deal with it. HO also doesn't struggle as much since they can usually limit its sweeps if they play right and have answers like volc that can maybe softcheck it behind screens. The issue, comes with every playstyle inbetween. I'm talking from offense to BO. These teams struggle IMMENSLY with zama-c, since they cannot reliably stack counterplay to zamazenta. You can maybe do like, molt+ghold or pecha+zapdos at best but apart from that it feels dicey. You have to typically rely on one mon like ghold and such, but zama teams will typically pack support for something like that and you kinda just lose instantly once your counter is gone. Theres no real outplaying it, it takes either most or all of your mons and you just lose. This feels really uninteractive and frankly busted, as these sorta teams just struggle a lot more in the meta.


Finally, what does zama-C really bring to the meta? People have said it beats HO, but not only does HO have tools to deal with Zama-C, but also Zama-C is a great mon on them to force great progress into opposing offense and BO teams, while teammates can deal with the balance teams that Zama-C typically struggles with. It also ig checks the fairies? I hate tapu lele as much as the next guy, but IDT they are typically an issue in the current meta. It doesn't really help out with the core issues of the metagame while adding another threat in the builder you need to account for.

One thing I do wanna mention before wrapping up my post is that a lot of Zama-C's weaknesses are pretty overblown. The hazard weakness isn't as big, you quad resist rocks and while spikes are annoying, not only does zama-c typically wanna stay in to sweep and not switch out, but theres also a ton of good removal that fits with Zama-C (like molt, treads, zapdos etc). The added weaknesses are also not as bad. Aside from Ep Lando, most Ground and Fighting type moves are either going to be physical (thus it can ID on them and still win) or are going to be coverage, thus being weaker by default. The only really annoying one is the Fire-weakness but also Zama-C commonly runs Stone Edge to deal with common ones.


Honestly, not going to lie, this feels like resuspecting something for the sake of resuspecting ngl. I do agree with Runo that unban suspects don't give enough time to see how a mon actually is broken/impacts a tier. Only solution I have is suspect slots (like currently happening for SSPU in PUCL with multiple mons being unbanned), but also thats prob not entirely popular opinion.


Here is the primary team I used to get reqs. M-venu is busted in this meta and should be spammed a lot more: https://pokepast.es/8f4be89344998ff1
Heres some other teams that I built that are also okay:
https://pokepast.es/8ec7968c7ed2c201
https://pokepast.es/45b946fda3f3c183
https://pokepast.es/9352c962644f8a99

 

[Oculars]

After another boring reqs run where i just stalled to like 37-4 or somethin I wanna say we absolutely should not unban zama crowned, I dont know why were even looking at it as its own mon when its literally just giving the already most versatile mon in the tier two new sets to cheese past more of its potential checks. Zama was a clear #1 usage mon across NDCL with massive set variety and variance and adding zama c will only increase that further. If anything regular zama should be getting suspect tested for a ban not the other way around. If we free this the tier is just gonna be people slapping pech and pex all over the place since those are some of the only reasonable ways to handle zama when u factor in that it can be a steel type now too.

Official shiestlord position on zamac is DO NOT UNBAN

 

[lyra__4]

Finally got reqs, 34-4 (with one of the losses being due to timeout) while playing from the phone with Chaos King (thanks toxic ariados Toxic Ariados ).

Ran into Zama-C a couple of times and each time it was not threatening at ALL. If anything, I found base Zama to be more threatening due to expert belt or choice band sets actually having some chance of breaking past Slowbro. I once again feel like this will be a massive boon for balance because it will help check HO/offense teams, forcing them to adapt and decreasing their viability, which will lead to a meta more centered around balance teams. Many balance teams already have some Mon or other that can hard check Zama-C (defensive ghold, slowbro, defensive malt, pecharaunt, physdef glowking, etc) and those that don’t might have to adapt but it should not be hard for them to do so. I also don’t see how it’s that much harder to check than base form Zama, people have been saying that stuff like spdef glowking doesn’t check it but that never checked base Zama either. The main difference IMO is just Tapu Lele and also the birds like zapdos and moltres since Zama-C can moreso afford to run sedge than base form Zama, but zapdos and moltres can still soft check Zama (esp zapdos as it requires 2 stone edges to KO and if you switch it in on a body press you can get that para chance). All in all I’m going to vote UNBAN on Zama-C