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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

I'm disappointed, but not surprised. All gen our ability to agree on things as a community has been shaky. Now that most of the low hanging fruit is gone, we are in a stale mate. People want action. They just can't agree on the path forward. This is also the limit of surveys.
Interesting to see continued support for a Roaring Moon unban, anyone want to chime in why?
Probably the same reason why people were upset with the Gouging Fire ban. Or the Volc ban. Or any other ban of a mon that can boost speed + power in a single setup move in a Tera Blast meta.

Moon is dumb in a Tera metagame. It would be even dumber brute forcing DD + BE with Tera behind screens. No need to bring that back with the screens fad.
 
I believe most of peoples complaints on this gen are actually rooted in the tera mechanic. Dragonite, Kinggambit, Terablast and in part even Ogerpon likely wouldn't be on this survey if not for the fact that they can turn their matchups upside down using tera. Dnite/Gambit getting fairy coverage isn't that big of a deal by itself, them becoming fairy types on top turning super effective moves into resists is a big deal. Ogerpon being able to ohko otherwise safe counters like Corviknight and Gweezing is also due to tera.

On the team builder it forces you to include multiple checks to the most prevalent set up sweepers and in game it can lead to you losing games to a sweeper where you thought you are totally save because of some tera/set you didn't account for. It's probably a large part of those "matchup dependency" complaints too if you look at the roots and it's also the reason why it's so hard to make defensive cores that perform somewhat reliably. You can't possibly plan for and cover all possible tera options for every pokemon so you are bound to get screwed over eventually despite having packed multiple answers to a threat. It's honestly depressing imo.

Not asking for action on tera this late in the game, just posting my impression.
 
First, thanks to Finchinator and everyone else involved with the surveys.

Moving on, I'm surprised that the Enjoyment and Competitiveness levels have increased so little, not because the metagame has become better, but because I imagine that as time progresses and the scenario becomes less favorable for changes, fewer users with low satisfaction will bother to participate in surveys.

If we did one thing well in this generation, it was to agree in disagree. Which is understandable in a metagame with a volatile mechanic without item costs, as well as a saturation of threats, unhealthy, uncompetitive or broken or none of the three. In addition to 5 suspects with a majority of 50%, but less than 60%.

I feel that more than ever, the quality of discussion has declined, a lot about how it's faster and more dynamic to talk in a discord channel, but I don't think there's anything that can be done about that.

While the tiering policy allows us to approach Tera Blast as a separate element, I consider that this would mischaracterize Terastal as a whole.

We also have a saturation of threats combined with the powercreep of the generation that makes teambuilding more frustrating than playing.
We have new (and old) toys with too many exclusive abilities or signature moves. Ceruledge, Glimmora, Samurott-Hisui, Ting Lu, Weezing-Galar, Cinderace, Gholdengo, Garganacl, Pecharunt... Or a combination of elements that make Pokémon unique like Gliscor, Alomomola, Slowking-Galar and Hatterene, most of them are healthy but impossible to deal with at the same time.
We also have elements that are potentially broken only within an archetype, like Walking Wake, if it weren't for the bots this would be on its way to UU in the next usage cycle, but with Sun the pressure over Offense or the destructive ability against Balance/Stall is almost unstoppable. That's why I mentioned Heat Rock in the survey.
But enough about saturation. Someone will make a much better post than mine soon.

Several archetypes seem really non-interactive and mu fish. Screens, Webs, Sun, TR. Stall too, but stall is bad and you are punished for playing passively. With the exception of using Gliscor, this brainless Pokémon rewards doing nothing.
Well, I still plan on being a spectator at least until OLT, but maybe playing SV OU is out of the question, I have no fun even winning. The feeling of "the team carried me and I just followed the script by clicking buttons" is constant. There is also nothing really new, just some trend repeating itself and going away again.
Peace :Komala:
 
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I honestly think that a lot of the problems of this generation are result of the matchup fishing of many archetypes: if you want to make a successful team it sometimes feels like you need to add too many things that you can't fit all on the same team, and your team will probably be lacking in one or more matchups if you focus on beating one archetype.

For example, if you want to use Glowking to try to beat the weather archetypes, you basically have a useless mon against HO, or if you want to use Valiant to beat HO it will probably do big fat nothing against hazard stack semistall or TR, and at one point you have only 6 teamslots to handle too many archetypes

While it's true that the current state of terastallization exacerbates even more this problem, i don't think that banning it outright would be the solution. I personally like the strategy component that it provides, but it is too unpredictable on it's current state, so i think that the best way of handling it would be using Tera with Team Preview
 
Well, I still plan on being a spectator at least until OLT, but maybe playing SV OU is out of the question, I have no fun even winning. The feeling of "the team carried me and I just followed the script by clicking buttons" is constant. There is also nothing really new, just some trend repeating itself and going away again.
Peace :Komala:

I second the "not having fun after winning" feeling as the number of times I swear even after winning is something I have never seen before. It could easily be 15-20x what I see playing any other tier. Terastalization can turn 25 turns of optimal play and say "oops that doesn't matter anymore now you lose" and that's hard to take seriously. It's almost never Tera Blast that's the problem or even one specific pokemon when the mechanic is universal. I can see community views of competitiveness going up only because we made really good choices (both banning and not banning) outside of managing Tera.
 
Where's the proof that Pokémon like Walking Wake are only in OU because of bots?
It's usage is literally hanging on by a thread, and fhe bot played ton of games so its not a stretch to say it would have dropped tbh.

I didn't expect anything to score high on the survey but these scores seem shockingly low. My only guess as to why is lower turnout I guess, with most of the people who bothered filling it out being more satisfied with the tier
 
It's usage is literally hanging on by a thread, and fhe bot played ton of games so its not a stretch to say it would have dropped tbh.

I didn't expect anything to score high on the survey but these scores seem shockingly low. My only guess as to why is lower turnout I guess, with most of the people who bothered filling it out being more satisfied with the tier
What bot though lol. We should see proof of a bot existing on the ladder
 
Where's the proof that Pokémon like Walking Wake are only in OU because of bots?
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Consider that the cutoff zone is 4.52%. I don't actually have the raw numbers, but this team became notorious for being used by a bot, including a Youtube video by Lax.
 
Thoughts on :Sinistcha: right now?

I think that it has a niche over :Pecharunt:, mainly for it being a better spinblocker while still being a good :ogerpon_wellspring: check and being a CM wincon at the cost of matching up worse against some variants of :Dragonite:, but is still that: a niche. I think that the best teams with :Sinistcha: are semistall hazard stack structures that appreciate a wincon and a spinblocker, like this one that i cooked for example: https://pokepast.es/9ed92cd7c0fc3547
 
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Thoughts on :Sinistcha: right now?

I think that it has a niche over :Pecharunt:, mainly for it being a better spinblocker while still being a good :ogerpon_wellspring: check and being a CM wincon at the cost of matching up worse against some variants of :Dragonite:, but is still that: a niche. I think that the best teams with :Sinistcha: are semistall hazard stack structures that appreciate a wincon and a spinblocker, like this one for example: https://pokepast.es/9ed92cd7c0fc3547
I think Sini has been consistently good the entire generation. When I'm not building teams to test ideas I usually fall back on a core that involves it, largely because being a ghost type that spams burns and can CM up is way too good. I think it's still super slept on, but Toxic Chain is a cruel mistress
 
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Consider that the cutoff zone is 4.52%. I don't actually have the raw numbers, but this team became notorious for being used by a bot, including a Youtube video by Lax.
It's still funny that somehow Dondozo has high enough usage to still be in OU lol. Maybe the fact that there are two samples with it makes it enough used to not fall down to UU, but i swear that i never see that fish outside of stall because of Unaware: it is like literally the most passive mon ever since Pyukumuku and it has to rely on RestTalk to heal, which is famously unreliable.

Also Curse sets will always be completely walled by something no matter what mono coverage move you choose: Water stab gets farmed by Wellspring, Volcanion and it gives Water Absorb Clodsire the most free spike ever, Body Press does big fat nothing against any Ghost type and like no one uses Crunch but i mean if Valiant is a defensive answer to your mon idk what to tell you

+6 0 Atk Dondozo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 62-73 (21.4 - 25.2%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO Man this is sad as shit to see
 
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Thoughts on :Sinistcha: right now?

I think that it has a niche over :Pecharunt:, mainly for it being a better spinblocker while still being a good :ogerpon_wellspring: check and being a CM wincon at the cost of matching up worse against some variants of :Dragonite:, but is still that: a niche. I think that the best teams with :Sinistcha: are semistall hazard stack structures that appreciate a wincon and a spinblocker, like this one that i cooked for example: https://pokepast.es/9ed92cd7c0fc3547
I actually prefer it over Pecharunt if i am looking for a spin blocker. Pecharunt gets 2hkoed by offensive Tusks headlong rush and a spin blocker that gets trampled over by the tiers most prevelant spin blocker isn't very appealing in my eyes. Guess you can use a balloon to buy time but that only works once. Personally i prefer permanent solutions and Sinistcha can block Tusk forever. Same with Treads. Sinistcha + Gholdengo basically makes your hazards permanent unless there is a Gweezing around. It also makes for a decent physical wall in general and doubles as a win con with CM, only down side is that it can't act as a pivot but the upsides compensate for that.
 
I thank Finchinator and everyone else who worked to make the latest OU tiering survey a possibility. As Tio Chico alluded to not that long ago, I'm writing a post on threat saturation in SV OU, and I will also ensure to highlight why acting on Tera Blast has the appeal it does to a minority of players (I was one of those players), but nonetheless, we should move on to more productive discussion since acting on Tera Blast will never gain traction.

I know that tiering administration has completely shot down an outright ban on Tera, and I may not like that, but I have accepted it to be the reality with it being ironclad that the Terastal mechanic will never be banned this generation or even post-Generation. Having said that, that doesn't mean I can't talk about Tera's effect on the meta. As everyone who has touched this meta knows, being able to permanently change your base typing is a huge departure from previous generations of mainline Pokemon games. While there is defensive merit to using the Terastal mechanic since you can stop a problematic sweeper or otherwise threatening mon from making significant progress against your team through your own use of the mechanic, the Terastal mechanic has more offensive applications by allowing offensive Pokemon to overcome their counterplay. Examples would be mainly set-up sweepers or mons with power boosts of some kind using Tera to change their typings to tank attacks from Pokemon that would otherwise check them, which while is using a defensive Tera is still an offensive use of Tera by allowing them to brute-force through their counterplay, Pokemon using offensive Tera Types to brute-force through opposing teams due to the power of 2x STAB attacks or newly gained 1.5 STAB attacks from moves they didn't previously have STAB on, and using Tera Blast so that many mons gain coverage they normally wouldn't.

On the surface, you may think this is a post whining about why offensive playstyles are stronger than defensive playstyles in SV OU, but it isn't. As anyone who has played previous generations of OU would know, offensive mons are much more likely to be banned than defensive mons, and the reason this has been the case is because top-tier offensive mons tend to have much stronger effects on a game-to-game basis than top defensive or support mons due to having more offensive attacks and also due to them being more likely to have boosting moves, which makes them more effective progress-makers since they handle more of the meta than defensive or support mons do. This why defensive or support mons, exceptions being mons such as Wobbuffet, Deoxys-Defense, and Mega Sableye, were only rarely banned in the past as offensive mons that can snowball with boosts or through sheer coverage had larger game-to-game effects than their defensive or support counterparts with defensive or support roles unless they possessed something ridiculous such as Shadow Tag, one of the most broken and uncompetitive Abilities to ever exist (Wobbuffet), ridiculous bulk and speed for a hazard setter as well as Taunt (Deoxys-Defense), or made setting hazards much more difficult with Magic Bounce while being obnoxious with the 12.5% chip from burns (Mega Sableye), although I still to this day don't believe it was Mega Sableye's fault that stall was ridiculous at some point but Dugtrio's 'cause of Arena Trap, which is Shadow Tag's little brother and is nearly as broken and uncompetitive. To throw a bone to people who hate fat mons and to not make it seem that I just have a hateboner for offensive mons, Pecharunt itself contributes to threat saturation despite having an overall stabilizing effect on SV OU due to how many Pokemon it blanket checks because it has such titanic physical bulk and is able to be a boosting threat itself that a lot of teams need to prep for it or risk losing given its strengths both as a defensive mon and an offensive threat.

This is why a mechanic that results in many top offensive Pokemon having many different Tera Types (5+ for Dragonite, Kyurem, Kingambit), not to mention sets with or without Tera Blast, increases the number of threats significantly as you not only have to account for them changing their base typing but also the power and breadth of their coverage options, sometimes to the point it feels like you're facing an entirely different mon, and it's not just those three mons that can do that but much of the rest of the format. Meanwhile, individual players only have one Tera Type for each of the 6 mons on their teams and have to account for a laundry list of Pokemon with multiple Tera Types, and while defensive Pokemon tend to have fewer Tera Types, you still have to account for them in the builder. So Gamefreak significantly increased the number of threats one has to prepare for while limiting the means for fighting back against Tera, such as by allowing for the use of 7 Pokemon on any given team instead of 6, which of course never happened. SV OU currently has 40 OU mons by usage, but in practice, 'cause of Tera, it feels like you're playing so many more than that due to the many different Tera Types top mons make use of necessitating to prep for each individual mon you may face in more than one way either through multiple mons or through your coverage moves, and when so many mons in the tier require multiple mons to check, it overall has.a constraining effect in the builder due to just how much prep one needs to do to build a consistent team. The volatility of SV OU is still high even after Roaring Moon's ban and further work needs to be done.

Tera Fairy Tera Blast Kingambit flips its counterplay against mons such as Zamazenta, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, and mons with Fighting-type coverage all while improving its defensive profile in many ways while improving its match-up against a number of threats. Dragonite and Kyurem have so many sets, nearly all of which do work if you're supporting them right, many of which can completely dunk on mons that should otherwise check them. I'm not saying that high set variety in and of itself is a bad thing. Landorus-Therian in previous generations had a long list of viable sets, none of which strained the meta since all of them had good counterplay. But SV OU introduced many high-power Pokemon or mons very effective at making progress, such as the the best of the Paradox Pokemon, Kingambit, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Gholdengo, Ting-Lu, not to mention the introduction of previously Uber or dexited mons such as Zamazenta, Kyurem, Darkrai, and Gliscor, all of which are very good or high-tier progress-makers with or without Tera, while removing or nerfing heavily previous tier staples that served as good blanket checks to many mons such as Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Slowbro, and Buzzwole among others, and this is while buffing a previously good mon such as Dragonite to the very top of the meta, whereas a number of the defensive Pokemon this generation such as Dondozo, Clefable, and Corviknight have a pretty big issue, such as being reliant on Rest, relying on weather-dependent recovery move, or being Gholdengo's bitch and easy to counterpick in tours. This makes it much harder to account for the huge increase in number of threats as a result of the Terastal mechanic. Too many Pokemon this generation have have a large variety of unique sets that each require their own specific counter play, and these sets as a collective strain the metagame a lot, which is why so many players find SV OU to be a tough tier to build for or outright refuse to play SV, referring to it as a meme tier 'cause of how volatile it is.

Yes, scores for enjoyment and competitiveness increased for the latest OU tiering survey, but it's also the case that as player activity drops off as a generation ages, it's moreso the players who enjoy the meta who stick with it, so it should be a given that there's a bump in enjoyment and competitiveness, so I question how much of the recent survey score increase is the meta actually improving as opposed to people who don't enjoy the meta choosing to dip out. Screens HO becoming really good is a testament to how big of an issue threat saturation is in SV OU. Since there are so many threats to account for in SV OU, using Screens to both give yourself cover against your opponent's team and also amplify the threat level of all the mons on your teams is an effectively way of playing SV OU's ladder since it gives you more options to work with and more time for you to play the game you want by limiting your opponent's options while also not being the most interactive playstyle to play against, and the rise in Screens HO may in part be a reaction to the volatile nature of SV OU with players trying to find a consistent team archetype to use in addition to Ceruledge being an insane mon despite not being on every Screens HO team due to the role compression and power it provides.

As for Tera Blast, I get the appeal behind banning it. Back when Hidden Power was a playable move, it was held back by its low Base Power, and most mons didn't use more than two Hidden Power types, but Tera is 2x stronger if you commit to it given it's 80 Base Power + STAB when Terastalized, and both physical and special mons can use it, whereas Hidden Power was solely a special move, meaning Tera Blast overall has a much more swing-y effect due to how many boosting set-up sweepers there are in SV OU given you get a strong effectively 120 Base Power coverage move that can delete the counterplay to your sweeper if they don't have the right defensive Tera. This is before going into how a few mons have multiple Tera Blast sets, such as Dragonite, Kyurem, and Iron Moth, whereas many Pokemon at least have one usable Tera Blast set. For people who believe a meta with Tera has too much threats and even some who don't dislike Tera, they see Tera Blast as something that increases the volatility of SV OU, and given banning Tera Blast was deemed the only acceptable tiering action against Tera due to it not fundamentally altering how the mechanic is played, the appeal for those players is clear. However, every Policy Review thread on Tera Blast has basically flatlined in terms of demonstrating support for Tera Blast's ban, and tiering administration already deemed that Tera Blast doesn't meet the critera for a move ban in a Policy Review thread based on the current tiering framework, so I personally believe that keeping Tera Blast on future OU tiering surveys does a disservice to people who are unhappy with the meta since having Tera Blast on them decreases the survey score of every mon with a Tera Blast set, most notably Dragonite, which most likely had such a large score decrease since many people innately tie Dragonite being problematic to Tera Blast, which Finchinator even said was the case when people included more thoughts in their survey responses for the October 2025 survey. Given support for acting on Tera Blast has been decreasing with each subsequent survey by the qualified demographic, it's clear Tera Blast will never have the support for a ban or even a suspect test, so I believe now is the time to stop beating a dead horse as including Tera Blast on OU Tiering Surveys will only serve as a poison pill to any further tiering action in SV OU.

The reason why enjoyment and competitive scores for SV OU are quite a ways lower than SS OU is 'cause of the volatility and swing-y nature of SV OU due to Tera and also 'cause of powercreep. This is why so many people want to ban at least one mon, yet there's no actual consensus on what to target 'cause one's opinion on what needs to go is dependent on their building patterns and style of play. To make building less of a chore and reduce the volatility of SV OU a ban on one or more of the mons that can swing matches easily the most should be the ideal tiering action(s). Moving forward I believe the best targets for tiering action are either the mons that snowball easily, stomping entire playstyles without changing their movesets or with a minimal change in moveset, or mons with so many sets that it's ridiculous to reasonably cover for most of them, and the ones I have in mind are Ceruledge, which is an extremely cheap mon when piloted right that shares much of the same traits other Gen 9 mons were banned for such as being able to boost its Speed and Attack and heal itself, only Bitter Blade heals Ceruledge while also having high Base Power off of a top attacking type, and Dragonite and Kyurem for how hard it is cover all of their sets (including Special sets for Kyurem), including Tera Blast sets for both, and the ridiculous number of Tera Types they have that can make facing them a crapshoot. These are the mons whose bans would do the most to alleviate threat saturation in my opinion and would have the most positive effect on the builder.
 
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I still have to ask why 2.5/5 is considered even low by survey standards.

I brought it up before; if 50% of players vote 1 and 50% vote 5, that's a clearly controversial subject that test are meant to be the means to break mold on, if its majority of players voting 2-3, that means everyone agrees its just middling and not overly egregious. If it was an overwhelming majority you wouldn't need to waste time doing a suspect you'd just know it'd be the right decision to ban and the vote is purely for democratic reasons and to keep specific twitter/youtubers from crying about dictatorship.

This is why I don't trust survey data entirely cause middling values can be heavily subjective based on the context of how players vote. Idk if you can see how they're voting or if the form just prints out the final result but just from the thread alone you can tell you're in the camp of far left or far right, one being dragonite and the other being tera blast because both have a mutual issue; they're assets to each other and taking one out alleviates some of the problems the other causes.

You can run months and months of surveys and use data as a means to decide the initiation of action but reality is test are resourceless and give the definitive answer to move on with what ultimately needed to happen retrospectively. It feels like test require confirmation through survey first that they cannot fail rather than actually testing if they may pass.. surveys =/= votes

_____

I still believe two of the biggest fuck ups this gen were;

- No visualization of a teraless metagame, Irdc what anyone says that entire test of theorymonning the result of nerfs just proved nothing without a visualization of how much better those changes actually implemented could've been with a suspect ladder, i still don't get why policy moved away from those cause seeing live-feedback instead of 'dude trust me' was invaluable. Even if it didn't mean much having those ladders for individual pokemon, tera was absolutely something that should've been a multi-run split ladder for proper comparison with various short run periods.

- Timing; Tera's one and only test was very early in the gen, at a time where players were still experimenting and some of the tera usage was one trick ponies (espathra was UU early on btw), STAB nuclear warheads (chi-yu stacking specs and tera fire), and pokemon that overall didn't really give a fuck about tera they were just doing stupid things (shed tail) or distractions because early on they preyed on new toy syndrome (Garganacl and gholdengo). The timing of the test and how it was executed with a compromised "take action" followed by becoming a black listed "deal with it" topic from then on was handled terribly and every suggestion to tolerate it has essentially been ways to nerf it be it removing pokemon that abuse the mechanic or removing elements of tera that contribute such as tera blast.

I can sympathize why tera blast ban wouldn't be on everyone's target ban because frankly, I said it was fucking stupid in the original tera test over just banning tera but got stockholmed into thinking its the only solution at this point cause the ultimatum was that we'd never revisit tera as a whole or consider other options like preview/STAB only.

There should've been more aggression when it comes to suspect testing instead of waiting on survey data to conjure one, if there was any gen where many the approach of scheduled test no matter how silly or unsupported they may be was considered, gen 8 would inarguably have benefitted from it.
 
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i do also think a large reason why people aren’t satisfied with the current generation is because people, especially when i see people talking in this forum, are not willing to adapt and rather just complain about current mechanics and pokemon

9/10 times talk in this forum is about pokemon they don’t like and which pokemon they want to ban, instead of actually offering and exploring different pokemon in the current metagame. talking about new sets, new pokemon, new innovations is something that is just not super prevelant in this thread becuase people are so hung up complaining about the things they don’t like instead of neutralizing that thought and coming up with solution. or they just don’t accept they have a skill issue

i don’t think tera is the healthiest mechanic ever but we’re so far past the point of “turning matchups on your head” when if u play the meta u know damn well the tera types most commonly ran on pokemon. like yeah gambit can turn into a million teras but based on how the opponent is playing + team composition u can generally guess which type it’ll be. not always ofc but there is way more nuance than people generally say

if anything, i feel like this generation banned more pokemon than it should have, but that is just my opinion. IMO a perfect meta wouldve been immediately after DLC2 dropped + unbanning terapagos (w/o the tera form), but i understand this might be a more unpopular opinion

going into gen 10, or even rn, i strongly want to advice people to look past what in their eyes is broken and look specifically why a pokemon isnt banned yet, why higher level players generally seem fine with the meta, and actually learn the meta. that will also avoid going around in circles when it comes to conversations (talking about this forum thread in particular)

gen 9 has been the weirdest meta ever and i do want to thank the OU council for dealing with this mess that gameFREAKS has given us (seriously, who tf approved of espathra?). in general i think y’all handled it pretty well and better than most wouldve

cheers
 
I still have to ask why 2.5/5 is considered even low by survey standards.

There should've been more aggression when it comes to suspect testing instead of waiting on survey data to conjure one, if there was any gen where many the approach of scheduled test no matter how silly or unsupported they may be was considered, gen 8 would inarguably have benefitted from it.
More frequent tests would be interesting. But doing it too frequently we would get bans that never get looked at again and I'd say that would be a mistake too. If walking wake had been banned im certain it would never have been reconsidered.

Just keep the ban or unban bar high at 60/66% I don't see what it would hurt. Testing tera blastless game would be the most dramatic thing that could happen but we're entering that one time of year where we can do such tests due to the permanent tournament schedule.

Scoring 2.5 is essentially 50%. Let's just test tera blast instead of doing nothing and see if that goes up to 66% after a vote. And if it doesn't then we tried and there will be less divide and stat boosting tera fairy blast sweeper of the month may score higher on subsequent surveys.

It's better than doing nothing. I know this wasn't the point of your post or the argument you were making.
 
This community has a longstanding tradition of debate pervs thinking they can bait suspects, bans, power rankings, etc. w/ rhetoric rather than substance. It's part of why usage and tiering policy exist in the first place. Introducing amounts of objectivity to develop more productive discourse. Unfortunately, the ladder warriors here aren't really interested in productivity as much as preserving whatever clout they think they've manifested w/ their ratings.


Just because you're qualified to vote in suspects, doesn't mean your perspective on meta-developments and the game itself are equally qualified. The qualification line has to start somewhere that ensures there's enough votes for a meaningful result. 1700, 1800 seems to be that line for now. That's all that means. You're of course welcome to your own perspectives but with a dosage of humility that's currently lacking. I said this before, substantiate your perspectives. Ask questions, explore adaptations, be respectful and humble. High level presence in these threads seems low because the quality of discussion is low. No wants to waste their time sharing skill and passion where it isn't appreciated.

Smogon is a very conservative project by nature. The goal is to preserve as much of the original games as is reasonable. Smogon only wants to ban something if there's sufficient justification to do so, in as limited a scope as necessary. While this may change in the future, and I also have some reservations about how certain things were handled this generation, this is the way it is for the time being. Please respect the council and moderators when they (keep) telling you to drop the subject.
 
I really don’t get why people keep saying we should be more aggressive with suspect tests, as if they’ll magically pull the support necessary for a ban/unban out of a hat. In fact, the times that we have been aggressive - Walking Wake, first Gouging Fire, Zamazenta-H - they all resulted in a failed test, and that’s even with supposed community support behind them. Tera Blast scoring a 2.5 on the survey doesn’t mean that you’re going to raise 60% of the community to support a ban (hell, usually 3s can’t even get the support).

Now, some may say that since it’s the end of the generation and we have nothing better to do, might as well suspect test anyways. But this is just a waste of time for everyone involved, and leans dangerously close to trying to force a favorable suspect result through voter fatigue. And for what benefit? It’s not like we have any real questions in how a suspect test will go: it’s clear the support hasn’t been there (especially for Tera Blast), and suspect tests usually don’t change the meta in any particular way to force a new discovery that can shift the tides.
 
Tera Blast scoring a 2.5 on the survey doesn’t mean that you’re going to raise 60% of the community to support a ban (hell, usually 3s can’t even get the support).
.
Yeah idk like when kyurem was mistakenly banned I must acknowledge that that the game was a little better I think that a month of playing without tera blast many may conclude the same.
 
With the community split in various ways, the only way I could see Something happening is the tier leadership deciding for themselves what is the best path for SV to take, banning/removing those specific problem points and only then seeing how the meta develops and asking for community input again.

Of course this would have insane backlash from anyone who didn't think that was the real problem of SV, backlash from people who could have agreed but don't want the council to do things without community input etc. and thus would pretty much break an already fractured fanbase. And honestly I don't even think the TL would want to do that in the first place, so we're all just stuck running in circles here as no one can agree on the next step (or even the need of a next step).

I dont think this tier is doomed or anything, but I feel like there's gotta be a way to unite people to a few more specific targets...? instead of things being super spread out?
 
Part of me wishes Tera Blast was suspected at the very least. Kingambit and Dnite are fucking obnoxious with Tera Blast, especially Tblast Fairy Gambit who just fucks with every relevant Poison/Steel type in the tier anyways so checking it defensively is a non-option. Banning them would be terrible for the health of the SV OU metagame as they serve critical offensive/defensive role within the tier, but banning Tblast would preserve them and remove an uncompetitive dynamic in the tier.

I also would like to address another issue. High level players are hardly involved in the community. Sure we have the surveys, but they don’t tell us the full story. There needs to be active vocal participation within the threads because they spark immediate discussion and swing council action. The only time this happens is in the end of a major tournament, or on suspect threads.

A couple months ago, heileone talked about suspecting Light Clay which made an impact on the thread, both getting Light Clay mentioned in the survey and starting a conversation about screens.

The harsh truth is that the opinions of non-qualified players don’t matter in the grand scheme of things. In surveys, it is the qualified playerbase that receives attention. The words of the average OU discussion thread main won’t have an impact. Even my opinion will be disregarded by the top players because I don’t have 2 trophies and don’t climb to the 1900s every week.

The reason is self-explanatory. Would you trust health advice coming from your drunk friend over 300 pounds who eats Cheetos religiously or would you trust a medical health professional with decades of experience?

Even if you disagree with their takes, even if they’re a toxic pos, their opinion stems from top level experience which is way more valuable and harder to argue against.

Top players are the bedrock of SV OU. If they are not being vocal presences in the discussion thread, then nothing happens. This is why SV OU discussion feels like an endless loop of ban/dnb arguments that lead nowhere, even if I’m overall fine with the state SV OU is in besides Tera Blast.

I’m not forcing anyone to participate if they don’t want to, but if you are a top player who wants to see change, don’t hesitate to speak up, because your voice matters.

Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.
 
I really don’t get why people keep saying we should be more aggressive with suspect tests, as if they’ll magically pull the support necessary for a ban/unban out of a hat. In fact, the times that we have been aggressive - Walking Wake, first Gouging Fire, Zamazenta-H - they all resulted in a failed test, and that’s even with supposed community support behind them. Tera Blast scoring a 2.5 on the survey doesn’t mean that you’re going to raise 60% of the community to support a ban (hell, usually 3s can’t even get the support).

Doesn't this just raise the red flag that survey data is nothing more than confirmation bias then?

Survey data is good as a way to say "see players asked that we do this" if the result ends up being "smogon is dumb for even doing this" but its meaningless on its own whether something will actually be banned or not. Ultimately its the discussion (which often mods cut off and say stop talking about in OU threads) that takes place in suspect test threads themselves that addresses the concerns and does proper evaluation.

You can look back on a suspect test and see why/how something failed, you cannot do that with survey data where like I keep mentioning; 50% 1s and 50% 5s are very different from 100% 2.5s contextually. Its just refusing to do it and optioning for do nothing at all.

I still think its very subjective to assume d-nite and tera blast aren't artificially lowered as Avira's post points out because you're just flipping per-player which one is more valuable to test in the time being and that jeopardizes the other, you may even have players not acknowledging either and reserving 5 for ogrepon instead. Public perception is a tera blast test won't be worth doing or having support because the entire subject the entire generation has been steered away from tera discussion or at various points said would never happen for one reason or another, hell at 2.5 you have real evidence that there is talking points on it and Avira is still suggesting not to even put it on the survey at all because there's so little faith in you guys actually making the test at all, why bother having it dividing other stuff if the end result is it will always be refused? You can't read survey data as black and white as this and you've already given perfect examples as to why.

If both dragonite and TB got a 4 on the survey I'd put money down TB wouldn't even get a test, it'd be defaulted to dragonite just off principle.
 
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The reason is self-explanatory. Would you trust health advice coming from your drunk friend over 300 pounds who eats Cheetos religiously or would you trust a medical health professional with decades of experience?
I really do get what you're laying out here and I think the insight from top level players etc is very important crucial (I've played comp in a variety of other games here, just for reference) but I think the health of the 'general' pool is important in its own manner. If the middle area to below top is all clamoring for something to change, regardless of what they agree that is, 'is', then its worth listening to and factoring in. Your three hundred pound friend might not have the worlds best advice, but hearing what a common person or player thinks gives more insight than solely top level

They are effectively separate levels of player in their own spheres, and it should matter to a degree; As does hearing how and why top levels can deal with it or manage it easier. But if something is toxic in one level, its worth considering how it might be influencing that sphere. SVOU has had its reputation for a reason, and I think thats worth considering. No, I'm not saying to listen to 1100's about how unbalanced Trick Room Registeel is, but even as I climbed thru the ranks off and on some things in the meta have felt distinctly unbearable in a way a lot of others aren't.

I think Darkrai settled in nicely (even if it got sleep banned lol........) but things like Ogerpon had stood out to me for awhile now. I think Dnite is 'fine', but I also understand because its the fact I gravitate towards mons that naturally answer it. So I can see how it affects other styles, players, and even then its usage of Tera is absurd. But I think that's again due to a mixture of Tblast (wow just like Roaring Moon?) and Tera accelerating a mon that would otherwise be fine.

It's obviously complicated. I'm not the best player in Pokemon by any means (if I play seriously with a same team I usually hover around mid 1700's) but I like to experiment and throw stupid shit at the wall. So I sit around 1400 to 1600 on any given month. So it's part of the reason why I think even if top level play is obviously crucial, important, insightful, etc that some mons or even items (Light clay!!!) stand out for a given reason. Even if we can argue all day about what or why that is. Be it due to elo or knowledge gaps lmao
 
Now is it just me or is the average of 1 and 5 3? Even so to echo the words of others, a 3 score is in a vacuum comparable to a 50% ban vote but even reduced due to being in favour of a suspect does not necessarily adhere to a ban vote (vice versa is true too but I’d argue is less common). Whilst I’m generally dissatisfied with the state of the meta from a standpoint that is effectively an outsiders, and I think at the very least Tera blast deserves a suspect but so be it, I do think that the results did communicate that generally disnt need to be taken. Now for a finishing thought: :brambleghast: this guy is neat. Sorry if this was nonsensical or ignorant just wanted
To put my 2c
 
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