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Suspect SV BH Suspect #7: Stone Axe

Chessking

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:SV/Kleavor: STONE AXE SUSPECT :SV/Kleavor:

Stone Axe has been one of the most influential moves in BH since the Ceaseless Edge ban. Being able to guarantee setup Stealth Rock while being splashable onto RegenVest Pokemon has cemented it as an autoinclude on any team and shapes the entry hazard meta around it. Due to dealing damage and having 24 PP, Stone Axe wins the exchange against guaranteed hazard removal tools like Defog and Tidy Up, while its common presence on Regenerator Pokemon means its commonly run alongside moves like Knock Off and Nuzzle, which deter -ate Rapid Spin users. This leaves Mortal Spin and Rapid Spin as the reliable removal options, both of which are blockable and thus mandating at least 2 on bulkier teams, with one also usually being on a RegenVest Pokemon. As a result of the ease of setting and maintaining Rocks, RegenVest Pokemon are able to make progress reliably while being hard to punish, and thus Balance vs Balance gameplay often involve long pivoting sequences between RegenVests and repeated exchanges of Stone Axe and Spin, assuming one side doesn't straight up have a significant advantage by having the right spinblocker. The near-permanent presence of Stealth Rocks also impacts the viability and set diversity of any Rocks-weak Pokemon, especially offensive ones like Kyurems.

Stone Axe does have its merits in the meta. While it is very easy to use it to set up Rocks and influences the Spins + Spinblock matchups, it also avoids a Magic Bounce vs Hazard Setter matchup roulette. Despite benefitting from a guaranteed progress move, RegenVest Pokemon also cannot run Heavy-Duty Boots and lose on a lot of healing if hazards are up, limiting the most common users to Rocks/Hazard resilient Pokemon like Ting-Lu and Celesteela. The ease of setting rocks also helps limit offensive powerhouses like Blaziken and Alakazam from repeatedly coming in to eventually break past teams, and the limiting of Rocks-weak Pokemon can be considered a positive in limiting threat oversaturation.

These factors combined makes Stone Axe a controversial element in the current BH meta. Is it too polarizing and encourages unhealthy gameplay loops and matchup elements, or is it a fair presence with positive benefits and reasonable counterplay? As such, Stone Axe is being suspected.

Requirements:

Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Gen 9 Balanced Hackmons before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played BH before the test, full stop.)
At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact April, Giagantic, dhelmise or a member of staff.

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900 (b-value 5). The deadline for getting requirements will be <t:1772254800:f>.

Voting:
Once the suspect period is over, everyone who has obtained reqs will be tagged. The post will then outline a process of blind voting, which will be clarified once the time arrives. For now, follow the above "Requirements" subheading to ensure that you have achieved requirements and linked your account.

A supermajority (>=60%) of ban votes is required to ban Stone Axe from Balanced Hackmons.

TL;DR:
- The COIL value is 2900
- You must ladder on a newly-created alt of any name
- You must link your suspect alt with your smogon account using /linksmogon
- The suspect test will run conclude on <t:1772254800:f>
 
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If you need teams I direct you to this extremely useful beginner-friendly teambuilding guide:

I have curated a list of 10 sample teams that you can try yourself, all 100% untested, completely original and ready to win ladder games.
:arceus-steel::eternatus::flutter mane::chansey::zacian::celesteela:
:arceus-ghost::eternatus::flutter mane::chansey::ting-lu::registeel:
:arceus-electric::eternatus::flutter mane::chansey::ting-lu::celesteela:
:arceus-steel::eternatus::flutter mane::chansey::zamazenta::celesteela:
:arceus-water::eternatus::flutter mane::chansey::ting-lu::registeel:
:arceus-steel::eternatus::flutter mane::chansey::zacian::celesteela:
:arceus-steel::eternatus::flutter mane::chansey::zacian::celesteela:
:arceus-steel::eternatus::flutter mane::chansey::zamazenta::celesteela:
:arceus-ground::eternatus::flutter mane::chansey::zamazenta::celesteela:
:arceus-electric::eternatus::flutter mane::chansey::ting-lu::celesteela:

Bonus 2 teams for feet enjoyers below:
:gardevoir-mega::koraidon::celesteela::chansey::arceus-ghost::dialga-origin:
:gardevoir-mega::koraidon::registeel::chansey::arceus-water::miraidon:


MEGA METAGROSS IS REAL IN 2026
:METAGROSS-MEGA::PALKIA-ORIGIN::REGISTEEL::ZACIAN::CHANSEY::ARCEUS-DARK:
 
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got reqs. here are teams

1. 1 vcreate sun
heatran.png
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koraidon.png
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Heatran @ Earth Plate
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Growth
- Steel Beam
- Judgment
- Solar Blade

Flutter Mane @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Magma Storm
- Volt Switch
- Mortal Spin
- Pain Split

Koraidon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Combat Torque
- Glaive Rush
- Electro Drift
- Gigaton Hammer

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Knock Off
- Judgment
- Spikes
- Shore Up

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Swords Dance
- Bolt Strike
- Poison Powder

Charizard-Mega-X @ Eject Button
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Destiny Bond
- V-create
- Copycat
- Glare
2. Summoning Snow
dialga.png
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arceus.png
fluttermane.png
shuckle.png
kyogre-primal.png

Dialga @ Adamant Crystal
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Dragon Energy
- Gigaton Hammer
- Headlong Rush
- Final Gambit

Shaymin-Sky @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Hurricane
- Magma Storm
- Zap Cannon

Arceus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Axe Kick
- Chilly Reception
- Diamond Storm
- Psycho Boost

Flutter Mane @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Endeavor
- Boomburst
- Will-O-Wisp
- Head Smash

Shuckle @ Eject Button
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Salt Cure
- Encore
- Glare

Kyogre-Primal @ Leftovers
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Take Heart
- Revelation Dance
- Leech Seed
- Earth Power
3. legend of webs balance
xerneas-neutral.png
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koraidon.png
chansey.png
arceus-water.png
miraidon.png

Xerneas-Neutral @ Leftovers
Ability: Fairy Aura
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Magical Torque
- V-create
- Baneful Bunker
- Sticky Web

Gholdengo @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Well-Baked Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nuzzle
- Strength Sap
- Infernal Parade
- Knock Off

Koraidon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Combat Torque
- Mortal Spin
- Knock Off
- Strength Sap

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Heal Bell
- Roost
- Topsy-Turvy

Arceus-Water @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Take Heart
- Revelation Dance
- Magma Storm
- Strength Sap

Miraidon @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Knock Off
- Draco Meteor
- Electro Drift
- Mortal Spin
4. diglett bullshit
diglett-alola.png
arceus-ghost.png
blaziken-mega.png
palkia-origin.png
chansey.png
meloetta.png

Psychic Driving (Diglett-Alola) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Spe
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 HP
- Pain Split
- Leech Seed
- Ice Shard
- Toxic Spikes

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Malignant Chain

Blaziken-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Trick
- Headlong Rush
- U-turn

Palkia-Origin @ Lustrous Globe
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Draco Meteor
- Sticky Web
- Lunar Dance

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Roost
- Topsy-Turvy
- Block

Meloetta @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Cage
- Mortal Spin
- Take Heart
- Strength Sap
5. MY GRANDPA'S DECK HAS NO PATHETIC CARDS (GEN9 VERSION)
calyrex-ice.png
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kyogre-primal.png
zamazenta.png
magearna-original.png

GARDEN DISTRICT (Calyrex-Ice) @ Quick Claw
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Glacial Lance
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Mortal Spin

USELESS DROPOUT (Garchomp-Mega) @ Quick Claw
Ability: Adaptability
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Headlong Rush
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Darts
- Electro Drift

FANTASY CHRONICLE (Arceus-Fairy) @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Strength Sap
- Magical Torque
- Stone Axe
- High Jump Kick

I NEED MORE CRACK! (Kyogre-Primal) @ Quick Claw
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Ice Beam
- Headlong Rush
- Leech Seed

TABULA RASA (Zamazenta) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- High Jump Kick
- Strength Sap
- Mortal Spin

SUBTERFUGE (Magearna-Original) (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Burning Bulwark
- Salt Cure
- Teleport

ill try to come up with a stone axe opinion in the next 2 weeks or whatever idk i need to help my team reach playoffs in solopl
 
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First ever perfect run. Shoutouts Treeko928 for the excellent team, one of the most consistent teams I've used this gen for ladder (other than one speed tie into VD LO Gren).

I don't think Stone Axe is as egregious as most elements on our banlist, and everything on there that is tamer should IMO be given a revisit which makes Stone Axe the tamest if it joins the list. That being said, I'm probably still going to vote ban, but can be convinced the other way if good counterarguments are presented.

The OP highlights most of the reasoning why I would want to see it gone. I think the hazard gameplay revolving around Stone Axe is very imbalanced and monotonous for one side minimum: you put Stone Axe on whichever Pokemon can fit it best, you get that mon in safely, click Stone Axe and if it hits boom you get your rocks. Meanwhile your opponent has to then position their spinner (because Stone Axe invalidates non-spin removal more on that later) and not get spinblocked (which is in itself a matchup fish more on that later and can lead to 50/50s like Registeel against Zama do you click Mortal or STAB). Without Stone Axe we go back to a previous gen interaction of playing for hazard setting with offensive sets to bypass Magic Bounce except it would be unlike any other BH gen since we don't have Poison Heal which was the most common way to get them up, and personally I think that dynamic would be interesting. You can call it burn out too which is fully subjective and I won't deny it, with still a couple of months presumably of this gen I think having a new hazard dynamic would help with the staleness of the tier. Stone Axe making rocks up more often than not also heavily skews item meta in favour of items that can offset this, namely Boots and Lefties, personally I think having Cloak Helmet and friends be more viable creates for a more interesting meta while also counteracting some dishonest strategies.

Re: non-spin removal, the reason why I think (and most people would probably agree) they are unviable is because Stone Axe has 24 PP (effective >20) and deals some damage. The former means Tidy Up just gets outpped, and for both Tidy Up and Defog the setter is getting in minor chip unless you are fsr Regen with those moves, so on paper you will need to recover eventually and not remove on demand, especially for Defog which does nothing. Thus these moves just do not function as mono removal as you would like a guaranteed removal to do (ignore GaG) on bulkier teams and offensive teams don't really want to clear both sides, so if you need dual removal anyways you might as well run dual spin because they are just better.

Re: spinblock matchup, basically there's no really consistent spinner that doesn't get blocked by something viable. The most consistent is Rapid Ghostceus, since it threatens almost all Ghosts, but stuff like Ice Scales and offensive Flutters can dance around it. MG Spin Yveltal theoretically beats every Ghost but doesn't really do much and Flutter can still dance around it by forcing out with STAB. And then Mortal side you have the Ho-Oh getting blocked by Fire immunes, the Grounds by Ground immunes, the Fightings are generally more consistent especially with Arrows but you are still relying on RNG to deal with stuff like CeleMage and Ghold can just deny you in the short term if they commit. So basically Spins can feel frustrating when you look over your team and start seeing all the combos that deny you from removal.

Re: hazards being too hard to get up hypothetical post Axe ban, if Mortal Spin ends up being oppressive somehow we can always resuspect that. But also Bounce isn't that easy to fit and if people actually use non passive setters not like the ones we saw in the No Axe tour then bouncers cannot bounce easily.

Re: offensive breakers being held back, I think this is fair if you start theorizing the stuff like Kyurems that hate perma rocks but will they really be oppressive don't think so and otoh it adds some offensive diversity. Meanwhile the best breakers we have are Blaze which is pretty stupid on its own, Chomp who resists rocks and is the guy that needs to come in a lot more than Blaze usually, so like the main guy you limit is... Zam? Either way we can always tier out stuff if offensive guys start spiraling out of control, but they also miss rocks being able to chip stuff into range.
 
Personally, I'm leaning no ban because I don't think it's broken at the moment. Tbh, I feel that a MSpin or a TH suspect is a better idea with the state of the meta, and if they get banned, I think it would make a SAxe ban a lot more justifiable. I don't really have anything else to say on the matter, since I haven't really built many teams super impacted by SAxe one way or the other in a long while, so I don't really have any strong feelings on the matter.
 
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Huh. For a first suspect test, getting reqs wasn’t too bad. Certainly worked out for putting a new team through the wringer.

https://pokepast.es/10638e9fe18bff97


Anyways, I’m currently leaning Do Not Ban, with my two cents on the matter below.


vs. “autoinclude”: I’m unsure, whether one can frame a meta archetype as unhealthy, simply because it’s common. In a format like this, you’re going to have some level of centralization, because imo Hackmons just naturally rewards role compression. Stone Axe being common just highlights this in the same way moves like Take Heart or Tidy Up are common. The more stuff you can push on a mon, the more effective it will generally be, and the more effective it’s imposter will therefore also be.

vs. “wins against Defog/Tidy Up”: Tidy Up’s weird. Generally, the move doesn’t try to just “remove hazards”, but sends the user snowballing in addition, making it increasingly dangerous for a suspect saxe user to remain in safely.

vs. spinblocking: While it’s true is that hazard control redundancy is valuable, this isn’t new, and it is also not unique to Stone Axe. Removing Axe would just shift that responsibility to other hazards (e.g. Spikes, TSpikes) instead. The argument for “mandating spin” wouldn’t really change meaningfully in light of a potential removal.

vs. “permanent Rocks”: This is actually somewhat true for some games, but even still, Stealth Rock is still meaningfully contestable: Managing switches around hazard chip is certainly doable. For specific mons like regenerators, it can become basically irrelevant if managed correctly. Resource management (status, volatiles, item control, predictions, etc.) tends to be the more dominant decisive factor, rather than accumulated chip damage alone.

vs. “offensive viability”: While I agree that Rocks pressure can constrain rock-weak offense, I don’t believe this to be an inherently bad thing. Threat oversaturation is a fundamental issue this tier has anyways, and passive pressure is one of the few non-gimmick ways keeping matches from being decided solely by which breaker you happened to load into.
 
Hey guys and gals. Winner of most relevant BH tour in recent history here. Since the suspect is coming to a close I thought I'd actually sit down and write about what I think about stone axe.
To be honest, I'm going to vote for Ban not because of balance-related arguments but based on feels. This is the flaw of the democratic-based voting system. Anyone can and will vote for their own interests rather than for the sake of the entire community. I don't believe that you or I are responsible for the BH metagame, which is why I will use my vote selfishly for me, myself and I only. If you have a hard time deciding on Stone Axe, I encourage you to vote in your own interest too. If you like Stone Axe in the meta, vote Do Not Ban. If you don't, vote Ban. You are not obligated to care about the balance of BH. You only care about how fun you are having. That is the only thing that matters.

With that out of the way, let's talk about what I think about Stone Axe and why I will vote ban, despite the fact that I don't think it will ultimately change that much.


1. RegenVests do EVERYTHING in SV BH, and every balance relies on them too much

Quick aside here; I think SV BH will be remembered as a Balance-dominated meta propped up by the "Three Pillars" which are Imposter, Arceus and RegenVests. These three things are omnipresent and extremely effective at winning games and stopping aggressive sets. This is in part due to the early bans of many powerful tools that used to overwhelm Balance in gen 6 or 7, from mons, abilities and moves. Some examples include MRay, MMY, MGar, Poison Heal, Contrary, Shell Smash and Belly Drum.

To keep things neat, I will list why RegenVests are extremely powerful in SV BH
  • Powerful mons which can OHKO or 2HKO RegenVests are banned :rayquaza-mega::mewtwo-mega-x::kartana:
  • Substitute and Poison Heal which counters a lot of common RegenVest moves are banned (Nuzzle, Salt Cure, Knock Off, Mortal Spin)
  • New insane signature moves are available (Salt Cure, Mortal Spin, Stone Axe & the banned Ceaseless Edge)
  • Recovery PP nerf did not touch RegenVests at all
  • Best way to position your breakers because they their U-turns heal & they never spend turns clicking recover
Although there are non-RegenVests that runs Stone Axe, it's low BP makes it hard to put on breakers. Walls also have to think twice about running a move that does not directly impact the opposing mon. Furthermore, it's competing with Spikes.

A Stone Axe ban would directly remove one of RegenVests' primary role (setting hazards) and indirectly increase the viability of other breakers which hate rocks eg :kyurem-white::rayquaza: etc.

Is what you would think if the metagame is that simple.



2. RegenVests GAINS SOME benefit from Stone Axe Ban and would not be less popular


Nobody can deny that losing Stone Axe removes a core functionality from RegenVests. However, I don't think this will reduce their presence in the meta at all. Consider these points.
  1. How are you going to safely position and bring in your breakers without RegenVests? How much worse is running a pivot move on your FC/Scales/Bouncer compared to Regens?
  2. RegenVests still have other very good moves outside of Stone Axe. Stone Axe is a move that does NOT affect the CURRENT opposing mon, hence it does not make U-turn better by forcing switches unlike Salt Cure or Nuzzle
  3. RegenVests are the mons that take the most hazard damage since they want to come in and U-turn a lot. This is why the most popular RegenVests :registeel::ting-lu::celesteela: all have some hazard resistance. If Stone Axe is banned, we will see Regens that are less hazard resistant become more viable like :kyogre-primal::giratina-origin::zacian:. Boots on Regens have to compete with AV, so it is rare.
  4. Although currently unviable, you can STILL run non-AV Regens with Stealth Rock or Spikes, albeit not as bulky.
  5. The same breakers that hate to come in on Rocks benefit from the chip against opposing walls.


3. So, what is the point of banning Stone Axe if it won't reduce RegenVest popularity?


At this point, it is time to be selfish. This is directly taken from the BH thread:

1771910262927.png


Is Stone Axe actually "balanced" in terms of effect on the game? Honestly the answer is arguably yes. Every competent team usually have two very solid spinners to remove hazards since Stone Axe is omnipresent. Stealth Rock is everywhere in other tiers too and it's never been banned.

Is Stone Axe "Balanced" by the term defined in the thread and my personal opinion? Fuck no. Every fucking team is running this move and it's getting boring as fuck. Most competitive modern BH games is basically both players using RegenVests & Imposter to lay out a red carpet for their win condition, and it's getting kinda stale. I think I've seen enough of the "go to Regens, click Stone Axe/Mortal/Nuzzle/Salt Cure/U-turn until my nuke/setup mon can have a good position, rinse and repeat until I win" strategy.

Do I think we'll end up right in the same meta after Stone Axe Ban? To be honest, yes. BUT I say we go for it anyways since at least it's something new, and to be honest we can do more bans after that. It's at least taking a step towards change.



4. What about Offense teams which aren't as reliant on RegenVests and Stone Axe?

I am not gonna pretend that I know how to build or play offense. However I would like to see more results before believing that offense is a good strategy in the current meta. I don't care about how often cityscapes post about offense teams or topping the ladder. Do not make me post her OMPL teams (the last serious BH tour she did) and expose her entire agenda. I want to see how these offense teams hold up when Balance actually gives them more respect cough cough court change fakespeed fridge kyub prankster cough, then we can talk.


5. BONUS SEGMENT: Voting for you and yourself only


"The right to violate the rights of the people belong to the people. In other words, when the people gave power to Rudolf von Goldenbaum, or to an incomparably smaller man like Job Trunicht, the responsibility belongs to the people. It belongs to on one else. Thats the important point. The sin of dictatorship is that the people can push off the failures of government onto one man. Compared to that cardinal sin, the accomplishments of a hundred wise rulers seem small" - Yang Wenli, Legend of the Galatic Heroes ep. 51 "Battle of Vermillion, Part 1"

"Perhaps in this universe, there exists a solitary, absolute truth. Perhaps it clarifies every question. But that’s beyond the reach of these short hands" - Yang Wenli, Legend of the Galatic Heroes ep. 51 "Battle of Vermillion, Part 1"

Do not follow others' opinion on Stone Axe as sheep to a shepherd. Knowing your own lack of understanding and lack of objectivity, follow your own greedy, stupid, selfish, narcissistic & egotistical heart. That is the what the freedom to vote truly means.
 
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I am not gonna pretend that I know how to build or play offense. However I would like to see more results before believing that offense is a good strategy in the current meta. I don't care about how often @cityscapes post about offense teams or topping the ladder. Do not make me post her OMPL teams (the last serious BH tour she did) and expose her entire agenda. I want to see how these offense teams hold up when Balance actually gives them more respect cough cough court change fakespeed fridge kyub prankster cough, then we can talk.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9balancedhackmons-907590
Is this you?

Edit for a bit more serious posting.
I think offense is currently a good bit less consistant than balance, assuming you're a better player and are actively building. This is a large part of why I normally load balance, it's the kind of build that I think most rewards the kind of incremental lines and makes the most of my advantage against the average player. But it absolutely has seen success in tours as more than a rogue pick and from more than just cityscapes.

I don't think stone axe ban will greatly impact offense, though. As we saw in the no staxe tour I was able to recycle several builds that were reliant on staxe leads to still function just fine without it, and they usually have enough short run removal that hazards aren't staying up against them for the 20 turns the game lasts anyway.
 
Screenshot 2026-02-24 140415.png


Got reqs I'm bad for this one. Mostly used https://pokepast.es/599c9ea2946facce and some bad teams the only one of which I'll show being https://pokepast.es/188d3f45f6d6aa9c because I clipped ANinjaDude with it.

Idk what I'm voting on stone axe I'll probably just copy cityscape's opinion. Wait what do you mean she doesn't have one-

The Zamazenta and Necrozma are really hilarious to use despite the fact that Necrozma should probably be poltergeist and the improofing being horrifically bad (win speed tie or dbond for necrozma, pray you aren't boosted on Zama) although this came up like. three times. I actually goobed multiple people who got reqs with them DarkLugia4000. Notice how I'm still really bad at the game but won because cheese is good. Cheese 101 coming to a bh thread near you sometime soon?!??

update: haha react me? fine ill release the replay. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2543637945. now what :wolf: :smiling_imp: :dontmesswithme:
 

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Got reqs I'm bad for this one. Mostly used https://pokepast.es/599c9ea2946facce and some bad teams the only one of which I'll show being https://pokepast.es/188d3f45f6d6aa9c because I clipped ANinjaDude with it.

Idk what I'm voting on stone axe I'll probably just copy cityscape's opinion. Wait what do you mean she doesn't have one-

The Zamazenta and Necrozma are really hilarious to use despite the fact that Necrozma should probably be poltergeist and the improofing being horrifically bad (win speed tie or dbond for necrozma, pray you aren't boosted on Zama) although this came up like. three times. I actually goobed multiple people who got reqs with them DarkLugia4000. Notice how I'm still really bad at the game but won because cheese is good. Cheese 101 coming to a bh thread near you sometime soon?!??

update: haha react me? fine ill release the replay. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2543637945. now what :wolf: :smiling_imp: :dontmesswithme:
convenient omission is convenient?? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2543647631 (zama set is fire tho ngl) :eeveehide:
 
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Decided to give this suspect test a run cause I like playing Balanced Hackmons out of all the Other Metagames I have tried.

Here is the team I used:

Fur Coat Eternatus + Hazards Semi-Stall
Fun team that utilizes the hazard stacking core of Magic Guard Arceus-Ghost + RegenVest Celesteela to apply a lot of pressure to most other balance and bulky offense builds. Mega Audino + Zamazenta provide the dedicated FurScales core while both providing a separate forms of hazard removal to combat the popular Ghost + Steel pairings we see on the latter. Finally, Imposter and NP Belch Eternatus provide the team the necessary offensive pressure that can close off longer games once the other team members sufficiently cripple and weaken the opponent down. Initially had Shield Dust Eternatus as a second form of combatting common move disruption (Salt Cure, Nuzzle, etc...), however I ended up going with FC instead as a secondary CB Blaziken and Magic Guard Ho-Oh switchin was needed.

The team is pretty self-sufficient, however Normalize bullshit can of course be a nuisance alongside other cheese offensive strats. However, with proper positioning, most matchups are playable.

Now to speak on the actual suspect, most of what I feel has already been said in this thread. Stone Axe is a watered down version of Ceasless Edge, however, the ease of use and payoff it provides with little to no cost due to the prevalence of RegenVest really creates telegraphed gameplay and does remove a lot of gameplay creativity when sequences favouring the Stone Axe user are so easy to repeat throughout the match. I feel the metagame will go in a much better direction if RegenVest users get nerfed a bit in terms of utility, which can possible open up pandora's box in the teambuilder as non-HO teams have to follow quite a rigid structure, more than I have seen then most other metagames I have played thus far.

I will most likely be voting BAN.
 
View attachment 811552

Decided to give this suspect test a run cause I like playing Balanced Hackmons out of all the Other Metagames I have tried.

Here is the team I used:

Fur Coat Eternatus + Hazards Semi-Stall
Fun team that utilizes the hazard stacking core of Magic Guard Arceus-Ghost + RegenVest Celesteela to apply a lot of pressure to most other balance and bulky offense builds. Mega Audino + Zamazenta provide the dedicated FurScales core while both providing a separate forms of hazard removal to combat the popular Ghost + Steel pairings we see on the latter. Finally, Imposter and NP Belch Eternatus provide the team the necessary offensive pressure that can close off longer games once the other team members sufficiently cripple and weaken the opponent down. Initially had Shield Dust Eternatus as a second form of combatting common move disruption (Salt Cure, Nuzzle, etc...), however I ended up going with FC instead as a secondary CB Blaziken and Magic Guard Ho-Oh switchin was needed.

The team is pretty self-sufficient, however Normalize bullshit can of course be a nuisance alongside other cheese offensive strats. However, with proper positioning, most matchups are playable.

Now to speak on the actual suspect, most of what I feel has already been said in this thread. Stone Axe is a watered down version of Ceasless Edge, however, the ease of use and payoff it provides with little to no cost due to the prevalence of RegenVest really creates telegraphed gameplay and does remove a lot of gameplay creativity when sequences favouring the Stone Axe user are so easy to repeat throughout the match. I feel the metagame will go in a much better direction if RegenVest users get nerfed a bit in terms of utility, which can possible open up pandora's box in the teambuilder as non-HO teams have to follow quite a rigid structure, more than I have seen then most other metagames I have played thus far.

I will most likely be voting BAN.
I think you still need to do /linksmogon on PS, because your name isn’t on the suspect page.

Not sure how to vote but leaning ban. Keeping rocks off feels constricting. Either you run normalize flutter or spend ten turns per game clicking 40bp moves. My mind could change, though. Rocks will still be important in a post-saxe meta, and I anticipate a rise in magic bounce offense to deal with them. I hate magic bounce.

I used two glare spams:
https://pokepast.es/3321b690c7a6f9c9
https://pokepast.es/d7a9b27d3a5bfbbf Topped the ladder with this one with a 88 GXE. Nothing crazy in the grand scheme of things. But I’m pleased with it since I had never hit the top spot before.
 
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finally got reqs, wasn't too hard by just spamming these 2 HO teams among other things
https://pokepast.es/51a3de5cb4ff8be0
https://pokepast.es/b1d64b1c18f87aa7

voting no ban, while I do agree with the general sentiment of wanting something to change in the BH meta, I think that it would change anyway once offense kicks up in popularity thanks to its good mus into the more passive builds I've seen used lately (hallwards sample teams, literally anything TTTech uses)

while I do think the guaranteed progress stone axe makes is pretty strong, I doubt its as relevant to deciding games as people think, since if you don't have the breakers to make progress against your opponent, you're very likely to just lose anyway, or if you do have the right breakers you'd just win before the constant rocks chip becomes a genuine issue. this has been prevalent for a while now where games are often just decided at preview by who has the walls to stop the opposing breakers from making progress or the tools to break the opponents team, and i don't think banning stone axe will solve that fundamental issue

but the main reason i'm pro no-ban is because it would make bounce + physical attackers way too strong, the strategy is already known for being very consistent at making progress and SGLO breakers are already borderline broken over how easily they can punch through common FCs like zama, etern and arceus formes lacking ssap. It would only get even more powerful if saxe got banned, as that would give an already good ability much more utility in battle and less difficulty in justifying it on teams

TLDR: banning stone axe is unlikely to fix BH's core issues and would just lead to magic bounce being too strong
 
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