Ehh it's definitely not bad but it's not without flaws, and it fights vs wake for a place in a sun team anyways. Again, Moth is kind of just a mon thats hypothetically good, but nobody has really shown that it's powerful yet
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Well, i'm not saying that it doesn't, but you can try to fulfill two different roles with both of these pokemon: you can use a less inmediatly threatening set of WW like Wise Glasses with Booster Speed to be better against offense since you have another really inmediatly strong wallbreaker with Specs Moth that can make better the matchup against fat. In fact, check this calc:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Iron Moth Fiery Dance over 2 turns vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 532-628 (81.5 - 96.3%) -- not a KO. Not even Blissey can wall this set because Fiery dance can grab a SpA boost
Ok. You have a point about Choice Scarf for Healing Wish. I would still rather use something like Latias for HW, though, since the speed tier and bulk is better. Latias also gets Trick, which is quite handy on choice sets.
That aside, Specs is just better on Enam. It's far harder to switch into. The reason why I stated Tera Stellar is because that is the one thing that has real snowball potential with Scarf Enam, gimmick though it may be. Tera Ground is good, but any Scarf that isn't running Stellar is just lacking in juice.
Using a mon with less than 110 base speed for Scarf in this gen is very... Well, stuff like Tusk (even though it's more of a Net Dex thing) or Kyurem can work since they have power and bulk. But if you are going with paper defenses like Enam, it's kind of tragic to see yourself still get outsped by a Deo-S, BE speed Moth, Trailblaze Wellspring, or virtually every boosted mon that is actually fast this gen. And it's even worse if you don't run Timid because, let's face it, Scarf Timid hits like a wet paper bag by gen 9 OU standards.
Enamorus also gets revenge killed by most priority pretty easily, making the speed tier even less reliable. Many teams pack priority because of how threatening setup sweepers are this gen, so this isn't exactly a rare occurance.
You might wonder why Specs would be better when it isn't as fast. The point of specs is damage, though. The point of Scarf is speed, which is sabotaged by your sub base 110 speed and fragile constitution making you vulnerable to priority. With Specs, all that matters is that your opponent has trouble switching into it when you bring it on something slow. You play it like a kinda fast wall breaker.
Given how potent setup sweepers are this gen, Unaware is a pretty important ability. Most teams have physical attackers. Curse is a slow motion win condition. It's not that bad.
Big Don Bozo is such an easy pick. Though there are other candidates like Iron Crown and Iron (mid) Moth, Dondozo feels more MU fishy and less consistent in said matchups.
Even in SV OU, matchup consistency is sought after. Having multiple common matchups where you are deadweight is awful for your track record. There is a reason Zamazenta manages to be Top 3 in the metagame despite having multiple matchups where it is unable to make progress. Its bad matchups can be circumvented easily in the builder. It struggles with physically fat pivots, Pech, and others depending on the set, but that’s fine because Zama works well with several relevant breakers and mons that MU well into Pech anyways.
Dondozo’s shortcomings are harder to work around. Its over reliant on Rest to stay healthy. It’s very passive as many things can swap into Dozo and threaten it out, and it has no ways of forcing process. This severely limits the structures Dondozo finds itself on. Its either Stall or very specific Balance structures. It doesn’t help that Stall is bad in this current meta. Too many MU either crack open Stall like an egg, or outlast Stall.
I actually think Dozo should be running Covert Cloak more. This item means you never lose to Garg and you stop the Psynoise problem of preventing Rest without forcing the Tera Dark. You don't have to worry about any stat drops to your defenses, either. You can just sit in there with the Rest/Curse thing more easily.
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Tyranitar. It's almost always outclassed by another mon regardless of what set it's running. Its defensive set is just a worse Ting Lu, and there are several other Choice Band users that provide a lot more value. Also, the fact that it's weak to 60% of the tier is pathetic.
we do NOT tolerate Tyranitar slander in this household
of them all I'd say Dondozo, passive thanks to Rest, struggles to fit on anything beyond Stall, it has its uses, but I think it is the worst of the best
of them all I'd say Dondozo, passive thanks to Rest, struggles to fit on anything beyond Stall, it has its uses, but I think it is the worst of the best
i don't think dondozo is the worst mon in ou. it's extremely good at the job it actually sets out to do, even though it's not splashable at all. physdef dozo is one of the best physical sweep-stoppers in the game, and spdef dondozo can be a truly ridiculous wincon. i'm not sure what i'd mark as the worst ou mon, but iron moth is definitely down there. the sets that are popular are bad, and the good sets have very limited opportunities to come in and are not really that consistent
Haven,t played much OU recently, but if I had to choose a single worst Mon, I would go with Clef. Defensive Mon that doesn,t check much long term. Ends up being a progress maker with TW, Knock, Rocks and random Sticky Barbs, but rarely wins games by itself and rarely stops biggest offensive threats. Its still a good Mon, but its not as splashable as other defensive Mons. Lack of Softboiled hit Clef very hard.
This discussion wouldn,t be nearly as hard if Webs setters were still OU, though.
This discussion wouldn,t be nearly as hard if Webs setters were still OU, though.
Crazy take
Ttar is NOT always outclassed, sand is great for supporting teammates and knock is something lu does not have. It's also considerably stronger and more customizable than lu
Another answer to consider:
Everything this 'mon does is exploitable. Grassy Terrain is cool, but in a screens meta it serves as a double edged sword, and often benefits the opponent more than its teammates. We're also seeing a ton of rocky helmets recently, which punishes pivot spamming (not to mention Rilla often just kills itself with wood hammer recoil into helmet). It hates facing common defensive staples like Pech, G-Weez, Hydrapple, or any of the birds. Offensive teams also have plenty of 'mons that can check it and exert pressure back (Zama, 'Nite, Kyurem, Moth, etc.).
All its sets have very exploitable downsides, which makes it hard to teambuild around.
- Band is heavily prediction reliant and serves as easy setup fodder even when you do click the correct move.
- SD Life Orb sets are powerful, but only ever get one chance for setup, and are easily answered by common anti-offense options due to limited coverage. You can run Tera Blast for this, but then the sets become extremely tera reliant.
- Terrain Extender enables some neat synergy, but gterrain teams are extremely mediocre and rarely worth the teambuilding restrictions.
- Boots helps with longevity problems, but you really feel the lack of power, and it needs specific support to work.
- Scarf exists only for the surprise factor, and suffers from the same damage issues Boots does. Once it's revealed it becomes even easier to play around than band.
It is not surprising at all that Rilla has by far the lowest winrate of any OU mon when you consider this SPL and last SCL. It was brought to 13 games this SPL and managed to only win one of them (7% winrate), with a 33% winrate last SCL over 18 games to boot. The meta is just not favorable to it at all right now.
Everything this 'mon does is exploitable. Grassy Terrain is cool, but in a screens meta it serves as a double edged sword, and often benefits the opponent more than its teammates. We're also seeing a ton of rocky helmets recently, which punishes pivot spamming (not to mention Rilla often just kills itself with wood hammer recoil into helmet). It hates facing common defensive staples like Pech, G-Weez, Hydrapple, or any of the birds. Offensive teams also have plenty of 'mons that can check it and exert pressure back (Zama, 'Nite, Kyurem, Moth, etc.).
All its sets have very exploitable downsides, which makes it hard to teambuild around.
- Band is heavily prediction reliant and serves as easy setup fodder even when you do click the correct move.
- SD Life Orb sets are powerful, but only ever get one chance for setup, and are easily answered by common anti-offense options due to limited coverage. You can run Tera Blast for this, but then the sets become extremely tera reliant.
- Terrain Extender enables some neat synergy, but gterrain teams are extremely mediocre and rarely worth the teambuilding restrictions.
- Boots helps with longevity problems, but you really feel the lack of power, and it needs specific support to work.
- Scarf exists only for the surprise factor, and suffers from the same damage issues Boots does. Once it's revealed it becomes even easier to play around than band.
It is not surprising at all that Rilla has by far the lowest winrate of any OU mon when you consider this SPL and last SCL. It was brought to 13 games this SPL and managed to only win one of them (7% winrate), with a 33% winrate last SCL over 18 games to boot. The meta is just not favorable to it at all right now.
Absolutely could have said this, it's not as bad as moth imo but the guy is kind of just useless into alot of the metaAnother answer to consider:
Everything this 'mon does is exploitable. Grassy Terrain is cool, but in a screens meta it serves as a double edged sword, and often benefits the opponent more than its teammates. We're also seeing a ton of rocky helmets recently, which punishes pivot spamming (not to mention Rilla often just kills itself with wood hammer recoil into helmet). It hates facing common defensive staples like Pech, G-Weez, Hydrapple, or any of the birds. Offensive teams also have plenty of 'mons that can check it and exert pressure back (Zama, 'Nite, Kyurem, Moth, etc.).
All its sets have very exploitable downsides, which makes it hard to teambuild around.
- Band is heavily prediction reliant and serves as easy setup fodder even when you do click the correct move.
- SD Life Orb sets are powerful, but only ever get one chance for setup, and are easily answered by common anti-offense options due to limited coverage. You can run Tera Blast for this, but then the sets become extremely tera reliant.
- Terrain Extender enables some neat synergy, but gterrain teams are extremely mediocre and rarely worth the teambuilding restrictions.
- Boots helps with longevity problems, but you really feel the lack of power, and it needs specific support to work.
- Scarf exists only for the surprise factor, and suffers from the same damage issues Boots does. Once it's revealed it becomes even easier to play around than band.
It is not surprising at all that Rilla has by far the lowest winrate of any OU mon when you consider this SPL and last SCL. It was brought to 13 games this SPL and managed to only win one of them (7% winrate), with a 33% winrate last SCL over 18 games to boot. The meta is just not favorable to it at all right now.
I don't think it's bad or anything tho, but for the reasons you mentioned I definitely think it's just not allat, it has a lot of fundamental flaws that kind of make the mon in itself kind of weird
I will say tho 2hkoing Zapdos with tera grass wood hammer is insane, and it CAN revenge some stuff, along with knocking.
I think knock kind of saves this because otherwise it wouldn't ever be able to make progress versus a team with one of its trillion checks (pech, zap, molt, corv, heatran, torn, Dnite) and even so it kind of js does that and nothing more into such mus
Last time I mentioned ts mon I got 3 laugh reacts but yea based take
To be fair winrate doesn't tell the whole story about a pokemon, BKC has a very interesting video about it. It could be that the users of Rillaboom had a bad tournament streak or the opponents were very well prepared for the gorilla specificallyAnother answer to consider:
Everything this 'mon does is exploitable. Grassy Terrain is cool, but in a screens meta it serves as a double edged sword, and often benefits the opponent more than its teammates. We're also seeing a ton of rocky helmets recently, which punishes pivot spamming (not to mention Rilla often just kills itself with wood hammer recoil into helmet). It hates facing common defensive staples like Pech, G-Weez, Hydrapple, or any of the birds. Offensive teams also have plenty of 'mons that can check it and exert pressure back (Zama, 'Nite, Kyurem, Moth, etc.).
All its sets have very exploitable downsides, which makes it hard to teambuild around.
- Band is heavily prediction reliant and serves as easy setup fodder even when you do click the correct move.
- SD Life Orb sets are powerful, but only ever get one chance for setup, and are easily answered by common anti-offense options due to limited coverage. You can run Tera Blast for this, but then the sets become extremely tera reliant.
- Terrain Extender enables some neat synergy, but gterrain teams are extremely mediocre and rarely worth the teambuilding restrictions.
- Boots helps with longevity problems, but you really feel the lack of power, and it needs specific support to work.
- Scarf exists only for the surprise factor, and suffers from the same damage issues Boots does. Once it's revealed it becomes even easier to play around than band.
It is not surprising at all that Rilla has by far the lowest winrate of any OU mon when you consider this SPL and last SCL. It was brought to 13 games this SPL and managed to only win one of them (7% winrate), with a 33% winrate last SCL over 18 games to boot. The meta is just not favorable to it at all right now.
I don't agree with all of your points but i can see why you are doing them. Many of it's checks don't like to take a Knock Off like the birds or Pecharunt, and most of the Rilla sets use Knock Off. CB is not that prediction reliant, since many of it's movements are hard to punish consistently like Knock or U-Turn. Also with SD Life Orb it's true that it doesn't get many setup opportunities, but most setup sweepers also don't have many setup opportunities, and while it's true that Rilla will almost never sweep by itself it has the ability to break huge holes that can be exploited by it's teammates, whereas with other sweepers they aren't inmediatly strong enough to break a hole on the opposing team. It's the same reason why Wellspring is popular on HO. I think the most valuable thing that Rilla brings to the table is one of the strongest priority moves in the game with Grassy Glide
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Why all this moth hate? 
+
is the pinnacle of HO to me. I personally think spa booster and specs are better into the current meta, but booster speed with 3 or 4 attacks still incredible. A well played moth is a butter knife of a cleaner. I never feel more outplayed or like I had a big teambuilding hole when I get cooked by sweeper moth.
Try this with a supporting glimorra lead.
Iron Moth @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 124 HP / 132 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Tera Blast
- Whirlwind
Smokes Tyranitar, gambito, salt rock, moose, and dork kyurem or hearten. Even does a number on blissey stalls because of the whirlwind.
+ is the pinnacle of HO to me. I personally think spa booster and specs are better into the current meta, but booster speed with 3 or 4 attacks still incredible. A well played moth is a butter knife of a cleaner. I never feel more outplayed or like I had a big teambuilding hole when I get cooked by sweeper moth.Try this with a supporting glimorra lead.
Iron Moth @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 124 HP / 132 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Tera Blast
- Whirlwind
Smokes Tyranitar, gambito, salt rock, moose, and dork kyurem or hearten. Even does a number on blissey stalls because of the whirlwind.
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I'm going to speak up in favor of sticky web setters because if a pokemon is really good at one specific role, even if it's extremely specific i wouldn't call it a bad pokemon, just a niche one. It's limited on it's scope? Yes, but i would think more on a pokemon that is mediocre on the roles that is trying to fulfill when im thinking on bad OU pokemon instead of a pokemon that offers a great tool for team support, because even if the pokemon enabling these strategies is mediocre by itself these strategies are so powerful that are worth dropping an entire team slot to enable them, instead of the case of a pokemon that is more outclassed by other options on it's offensive/defensive role like Iron Crown or Enamorus for example. I can also apply this to weather setters or non Meteor Beam Glimmora
thing with webs is even webs itself is niche.
You have a niche playstyle that does nothing against flying mons/levitate/boots and can easily get cleared off 1 turn of defog or spin or even denied with a taunt lead.
When Webs has a good matchup its incredibly strong but its dead weight 5v6 because the pokemon themselves are so shit to begin with when the
stars aren't aligning. There's a reason smeargle was one of the more popular web setters back in the day because it could do more than just webs.
Trick room users are kind of similar but trick room users typically are good pokemon in themselves as hard hitting pokemon or having other utility options, hatterene you can run outside of trick room or just slap trick room on it as an option even if you don't use it.. can't say the same for webs users they're exclusively there for a niche playstyle and all suicide leads.
You have a niche playstyle that does nothing against flying mons/levitate/boots and can easily get cleared off 1 turn of defog or spin or even denied with a taunt lead.
When Webs has a good matchup its incredibly strong but its dead weight 5v6 because the pokemon themselves are so shit to begin with when the
stars aren't aligning. There's a reason smeargle was one of the more popular web setters back in the day because it could do more than just webs.
Trick room users are kind of similar but trick room users typically are good pokemon in themselves as hard hitting pokemon or having other utility options, hatterene you can run outside of trick room or just slap trick room on it as an option even if you don't use it.. can't say the same for webs users they're exclusively there for a niche playstyle and all suicide leads.
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Glad to see i am not the only one feeling that way. I am running mixed def Moltres on one of my teams because, in theory, it should be an excellent choice covering a lot of bases but in practise it hardly ever works out and other mons have to come in and help. It's supposed to check Darkrai but even without NP it takes so much damage that a single flinch or poison dooms it. It's supposed to check Kyurem but then it eats Draco Meteor and is dead. Switching into Gholdengo is also shaky at best. Zama often ends up being tera fire or running Stone Edge, Gambit and Dnite frequently end up breaking through it with raw power alone. Not to mention that something like switching into common uturn users to trigger Flame Body doesn't work most of the time because so many of those tend to run Knock Off which leaves Moltres essentially useless for the rest of the match. Same if you try to switch into Tusk or Treads who also often carry it. It also isn't really threatening to any of the things it wants to check aside from hopefully burning them. It just failes to do what it's supposed to do so often that i find it hard to justify using it at all but i haven't really found a replacement yet.
I think the fact that Zamazenta has run Stone Edge to hit Moltres or how physical attackers in general have to run Tera Fire to dodge burns speaks to how influential the cheater bird still is. Zama would much rather run Heavy Slam to stomp fairies like Valiant, Ice Fang to beat Gliscor/Lando (the former can get a Toxic off, the latter chips with Helmet and both sit on non Ice Fang AoA Zamas) or Roar to mess up an opponent's switches and beat Bulk up Tusk who would 1v1 Zama and many other options instead an unreliable attack with narrow use cases. Moltres's role as a Kyurem check is tenous, but so is the act defensively checking Kyurem to begin with I can't fault Moltres for that.
For my money, I think Dozo is the weakest OU ranked 'mon because of how utterly inflexible it is (being locked to Stall), being dependent on Boots/Leftovers which makes it prone to eating Knock offs and getting overwhelmed long term as well as having severe 4MSS given that Rest + Sleep Talk is mandatory leaving the Curse sets unable to hit certain Pokemon outright and the two attack sets aren't remotely threatening.
For my money, I think Dozo is the weakest OU ranked 'mon because of how utterly inflexible it is (being locked to Stall), being dependent on Boots/Leftovers which makes it prone to eating Knock offs and getting overwhelmed long term as well as having severe 4MSS given that Rest + Sleep Talk is mandatory leaving the Curse sets unable to hit certain Pokemon outright and the two attack sets aren't remotely threatening.
ok i kinda forgot that rillaboom was actually in ou again so that might be my answer for worst mon here. even with the unholy damage output of wood hammer, knock off threatening a lot of wood hammer's switchins, great priority, set variety, etc it just doesn't have the sauceAnother answer to consider:
Everything this 'mon does is exploitable. Grassy Terrain is cool, but in a screens meta it serves as a double edged sword, and often benefits the opponent more than its teammates. We're also seeing a ton of rocky helmets recently, which punishes pivot spamming (not to mention Rilla often just kills itself with wood hammer recoil into helmet). It hates facing common defensive staples like Pech, G-Weez, Hydrapple, or any of the birds. Offensive teams also have plenty of 'mons that can check it and exert pressure back (Zama, 'Nite, Kyurem, Moth, etc.).
All its sets have very exploitable downsides, which makes it hard to teambuild around.
- Band is heavily prediction reliant and serves as easy setup fodder even when you do click the correct move.
- SD Life Orb sets are powerful, but only ever get one chance for setup, and are easily answered by common anti-offense options due to limited coverage. You can run Tera Blast for this, but then the sets become extremely tera reliant.
- Terrain Extender enables some neat synergy, but gterrain teams are extremely mediocre and rarely worth the teambuilding restrictions.
- Boots helps with longevity problems, but you really feel the lack of power, and it needs specific support to work.
- Scarf exists only for the surprise factor, and suffers from the same damage issues Boots does. Once it's revealed it becomes even easier to play around than band.
It is not surprising at all that Rilla has by far the lowest winrate of any OU mon when you consider this SPL and last SCL. It was brought to 13 games this SPL and managed to only win one of them (7% winrate), with a 33% winrate last SCL over 18 games to boot. The meta is just not favorable to it at all right now.
If we are going "worst in OU mons that are OU" -- I put them in two separate categories. The first is offensive pokemon that just got outclassed by something better even if what outclasses it doesn't serve as a direct substitute. Iron Moth for example has OU quality offensive traits, but it offers little defensive utility. To compensate, it would have to outspeed the entire tier consistently and that almost never happens even with a Booster Energy boost. I could run other offensive threats and get similar utility (Iron Valiant, Dragapult, etc) unless I wanted to stack them on HO. Iron Crown, Enamorus, and Rillaboom also fit the "good but not broken good" category that traps them in low OU / UUBL purgatory. The other category is walls or balance pokemon that are overpowered too often to justify a slot on a standard SV OU team. Clefable comes to mind here -- incredible movepool, great defensive traits, fun abilities...and then it has to stand up against Dragapult or Kyurem to justify its slot and that's not a guarantee. Dondozo would get my "worst in OU" vote only because Alomomola took its "Water Wall" role in the metagame and can't run enough moves to both heal itself and not flounder as a lame duck outside of stall. It never seemed to recover reputationally from Breaking Swipe Gouging Fire tearing into it even after Gouging Fire left the tier. Might as well pivot with Alomomola with AV or a Rocky Helmet chip instead.
The worst mon in OU has gotta be 
imo. don't get me wrong its not bad (I think everything ranked OU deserves it's OU status atm), Just feels like it completely thuds into gking balances, offenses have the tools to play around scarf between priority and booster mons that it doesn't outrun it naturally, making it fairly limited and specific. I think 
also has a good case but as exploitable as it is, can't really say it's the worst when screens and other cheese HO are the best playstyle in the meta.
Edit for those who think moth is the worst: Try specs overheat in sun, it will enlighten you.
imo. don't get me wrong its not bad (I think everything ranked OU deserves it's OU status atm), Just feels like it completely thuds into gking balances, offenses have the tools to play around scarf between priority and booster mons that it doesn't outrun it naturally, making it fairly limited and specific. I think also has a good case but as exploitable as it is, can't really say it's the worst when screens and other cheese HO are the best playstyle in the meta.Edit for those who think moth is the worst: Try specs overheat in sun, it will enlighten you.
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The ability to wallbreak and/or clean with priority depending on the game is really nice. Not only do I think Rillaboom has the sauce, especially with the right Tera, but I also think Grassy Terrain is underrated for its support ability. Grassy Seed, LO chip mitigation, or Leftover heal stacking are all quite good even if you aren't running traditional terrain abusers. So is weakening EQ.
Rillaboom feeling lacking is really more of a builder issue than a gameplay issue. You have to carefully account for the defensive birds and what kind of team you want around it. It's definitely not the worst in OU.
finally someone who recognizes the power of Iron Moth under sun and stops using the Speed Booster garbage setThe worst mon in OU has gotta be
Edit for those who think moth is the worst: Try specs overheat in sun, it will enlighten you.
That thing is completely nuts, with Modest it does like half damage to Blissey with Overheat under sun and if it farms Fiery Dance boosts it will absolutely destroy it
Lowkey the reason that I think TTar and Rillaboom are a great pair. Tera Fire on TTar in case of emergencies but otherwise you just slick Stone Edge or Ice Punch on things that things that wanna come in after you force the birds out with your unholy might.
Honestly I think the first person who answered the weakest OU ‘mon prompt thing hit the nail on Iron Crown; it’s not a bad ‘mon by any means but despite its merits, the only reason it’s still clinging onto OU usage atm is its decent matchup vs a single Pokémon, (Kyurem), which is not something I can say about any other Pokémon that’s been mentioned so far.
True, and I honestly don't know if it's gonna stay OU now that Ttar (honestly a better mon and still a Kyu check) has risen
I also kinda like scizor more than it not only as a pokemon but as a Kyurem check
Crown is good but I don't see why it's still OU
Red Cold River (Iron Moth) @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Tera Blast
- Agility
Messed around a bit (like 3 games) and this seems like a decent set to use. It hits really hard, and if you can manage to get a boost it sweeps really easily. Guy killed 4 mons in the last game I played (1700s ish ladder)
Moth MIGHT have potential
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Tera Blast
- Agility
Messed around a bit (like 3 games) and this seems like a decent set to use. It hits really hard, and if you can manage to get a boost it sweeps really easily. Guy killed 4 mons in the last game I played (1700s ish ladder)
Moth MIGHT have potential